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#981996 - 11/28/17 11:00 PM Gill Nets- Class Speech
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
I'm writing an advocacy speech in my public speaking class at UW and my topic is to ban gill-nets in Washington state. The current problems with gill-nets are that they are not a sustainable means of fishing in the fact that they are not selective in their harvest of fish. However, what I'm not aware of is who is responsible for their establishment in our fisheries and what can be done to get them removed.

From what I understand, they are currently used by commercial fishermen as well as the tribes. I have ZERO PROBLEM with either as to the fish they are harvesting, however I feel as though a more selective method would do wonders for native and endangered fish populations such as our beloved steelhead.

Currently I'm looking to find information as to who is to "blame" (where it stems from) for gill nets usage in our fisheries, data of fish mortality and by catch rates, and the steps individuals would need to take in order to get them banned in both tribal and commercial sectors.

While I understand this in the end may prove difficult, I'd ask what would need to be done (in theory) if everything went perfectly for them to be banned. I have done a bit of research on my own but that only goes so far compared to the years of experience I know people have with this topic.

I appreciate any feedback as its all helpful and would like to repreat that this is only for a class project. Thanks!

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#982006 - 11/29/17 06:59 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Well, the Indians were using gillnets before the Europeans arrived. The Europeans were using them, too. It is probably a rather ancient technology.

The non-Indian fishery is managed by the State of Washington through WDFW (at least in theory, many here believe otherwise). The citizens of the State, through the Legislature or Initiative, could ban their use by that segment.

Tribal fisheries are managed by each individual tribe. They are not subject the State law regarding fishing.

One difference in gillnets is that, in the fast, the NI nets could not be monofilament; they had to be multi-stranded which made them somewhat more visible. Indian nets had no such restriction.

The most destructive fisheries to the long term survival of Pacific salmon and steelhead are the marine mixed stock, primarily hook and line.

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#982007 - 11/29/17 07:44 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
When discussing gillnet fisheries, it's important to distinguish between impacts on salmon and steelhead, because the two are quite different, in terms of both who conducts the fisheries and the overall impact those fisheries create.

Adding on to what Carcassman said, the only gillnet fisheries our government can outlaw are the non-tribal ones, and they fish for strictly salmon. I could easily stand to see those go away, but it would represent very little reduction in gillnet harvest overall (except in Willapa Bay, where I think all your concerns are valid). As Carcassman said, the vast majority of salmon are harvested in open ocean, mixed stock, hook and line fisheries (both commercial and recreational).

As regards steelhead, the decision to stop gillnetting them lies solely with each of the treaty tribes, so an audience at UW might not be the most effective forum for that discussion. I do believe, considering that there are no non-tribal, commercial fisheries targeting steelhead, yet the numbers continue to decline, even in places where habitat has been well-preserved or enhanced, that tribal gillnet fisheries have played and continue to play a larger role in limiting steelhead abundance versus salmon. I'm probably wrong. As you're no doubt learning as you research this topic, it's extremely complicated, and clear answers are hard to come by.

Good luck!

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#982009 - 11/29/17 08:01 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The NI fleet does, or used to, get lots of Columbia River steelhead in the springer season. I recall discussions with one gill netter who brought back, and distributed to the hungry, 20 fish that arrived in the boat dead. Over 400 pounds. He threw the live ones back but would not "waste" an already dead one.

On the issue of steelhead, the gillnets hammer them two ways. Even if all directed netting was outlawed, they would be incidentally taken in coho and chum fisheries. Even worse, to my mind, is that in some springer fisheries the kelts are caught. They are simply wasted as being unsuitable for sale.

As I get deeper into steelhead biology (which is odd because that is actually where the circus of a career began 40+ years ago) they are so much more complex than salmon. We treat them like salmon. I think that an anadromous adult is actually a response freshwater conditions. They don't exist as a wholly independent "stock". The residents and anadromous are not only the same but need each other for maximum population diversity.

When the Cedar had all those "resident" rainbow and few anadromous it was, I believe, more a case of being resident was a better way to reach reproductive age than being anadromous. If conditions change, they'll switch.

For whatever reason, we are trying to force rainbows to be anadromous and maybe they are smarter than us and know that path is not currently wise.

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#982011 - 11/29/17 08:40 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
So in order for everyone to stop gillnetting, the decision in ultimately up to the treaty tribes? And nothing can be done to influence that? I heard a few years ago that the Colville Indians were practicing using purse-seine nets instead of gill nets. I thought that was really cool to see and could see huge benefits if that were the fishing method used on all our rivers.

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#982014 - 11/29/17 08:53 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
Denham,

The Colvilles are not a treaty tribe and do not have treaty fishing rights. They have fishing rights on their reservation. So their approach to fish management is different than that of most of the treaty fishing tribes.

As for modifying treaty fishing rights, that is the pervue of Congress. That was tried in the early 1980s and flopped miserably. On the national level, the public is highly supportive of tribal rights.

Sg

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#982017 - 11/29/17 09:04 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Denham,

First, I suggest that you ask some fishery managers from the state, tribes, and feds to get a broader perspective on this.

Then, I would argue that any distinction on fishing gear type is almost purely a political/econo-political discussion and not a biologically-based discussion. In other words, a dead fish is a dead fish.

Gillnets are the current enemy du jour....

Back in the 1920 and 30, when the commercial scale, boat-based gill net industry was really firing up, due to the rise of the small marine engine tech, traps and wheels were the enemy - so much so, that the gill net lobby got that gear banned in WA and OR because of its efficieant and indiscriminate harvest! (Sound familiar?)

The real issue has and will always be the rate at which the fish are killed, not how they are killed. remember, how they are killed is not a biological rational for one gear over another. The "image" problem that gill nets have is they are supremely effective at what they do, which puts dead fish in the boat, which can be seen and counted, unlike the released recreational and commercial troll by-catch, which operates on the more "invisible" principle of assumed released mortality, albeit with some good to questionable estimates for this mortality. Both types of gear have estimates, used in management, for fish that disappear from the gears - hooked and never landed and net dropout.

I'll leave it to the folks here to tell you were I'm wrong.

Good luck,

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#982025 - 11/29/17 10:34 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The big advantage of GN is that it is generally directed at a known stock of adults in a situation where it should be possible to have an accurate idea of the run size.

The biggest disadvantage is that it is obvious and in your face. Also, while it is extremely size selective it will take anything of that size. I have seen mesh size restrictions used very efficiently to protect one species while harvesting another.

The method(s) that are the least supportable biologically and energetically (energy used to catch them) are the marine mixed stock fisheries.

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#982027 - 11/29/17 10:45 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Carcassman]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
I recall discussions with one gill netter who brought back, and distributed to the hungry, 20 fish that arrived in the boat dead. Over 400 pounds.


Sounds like this gill netter was from Oregon... or at least his scale was. wink


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#982028 - 11/29/17 10:52 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Nope. Spring Chinook fishing, mesh to take fish of that size. Steelhead were the same size.

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#982033 - 11/29/17 12:33 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
Well if the tribes cannot be influenced by any sort of action then it seems pointless to eliminate commercial gill nets which is only half the problem. If there's no solution to solve the problem then I'll just have to bag the idea and move on to something else!

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#982036 - 11/29/17 01:45 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: Denham
Well if the tribes cannot be influenced by any sort of action then it seems pointless to eliminate commercial gill nets which is only half the problem. If there's no solution to solve the problem then I'll just have to bag the idea and move on to something else!


May I suggest open ocean, mixed stock fisheries as a topic? There's all kinds of injustice to focus on there, and you won't be labeled a racist for speaking up (you might if you stick with the gillnet thing).

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#982037 - 11/29/17 01:54 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Or take the opposite approach and report on the Supreme Court's affirmation of the Boldt decision and their inclusion of an economic development off-set to tribal fishing rights. IF a tribe's economic status were on a par with their surrounding community might they lose their commercial treaty fishing rights (and, thereby, substantially reduce their non-selective gill net harvest)? Gutsy issue to take up at any university but guaranteed to garner some attention.
_________________________
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It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#982040 - 11/29/17 02:42 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Larry B]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Or take the opposite approach and report on the Supreme Court's affirmation of the Boldt decision and their inclusion of an economic development off-set to tribal fishing rights. IF a tribe's economic status were on a par with their surrounding community might they lose their commercial treaty fishing rights (and, thereby, substantially reduce their non-selective gill net harvest)? Gutsy issue to take up at any university but guaranteed to garner some attention.


trigger warning! this may upset Larry B smile

If you're referring to the "moderate living" language in the decision, it refers to a living made from fishing, and not anything else. They can have all the casino money in the world but if their fishermen can't make a living fishing, we are not fulfilling the treaty.

Think of it like this, you still want to fish, even though the non-Indian economy is enormous and wide spread and has been mostly responsible for the condition the fisheries are in, correct? Why should you get to fish at all?

Now, when you answer that question, remember you don't have a federal treaty-reserved right to fish.




Edited by JustBecause (11/29/17 02:45 PM)

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#982041 - 11/29/17 02:54 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: JustBecause]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: JustBecause
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Or take the opposite approach and report on the Supreme Court's affirmation of the Boldt decision and their inclusion of an economic development off-set to tribal fishing rights. IF a tribe's economic status were on a par with their surrounding community might they lose their commercial treaty fishing rights (and, thereby, substantially reduce their non-selective gill net harvest)? Gutsy issue to take up at any university but guaranteed to garner some attention.


trigger warning! this may upset Larry B smile

If you're referring to the "moderate living" language in the decision, it refers to a living made from fishing, and not anything else. They can have all the casino money in the world but if their fishermen can't make a living fishing, we are not fulfilling the treaty.

Think of it like this, you still want to fish, even though the non-Indian economy is enormous and wide spread and has been mostly responsible for the condition the fisheries are in, correct? Why should you get to fish at all?

Now, when you answer that question, remember you don't have a federal treaty-reserved right to fish.


If that is factual; that is, it is limited to fishing generated income.

Clearly that is not my understanding but if you have the cite please provide for my edification.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#982042 - 11/29/17 03:35 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The share, as set by the Supremes, was 50% or a moderate living, whichever is the lesser. The state was requested to litigate this in the 80s and refused. Some would say that they (the state) believed that the 80s catch levels did not reach a moderate living.

I agree with JustBecause; it is independent of other sources.

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#982043 - 11/29/17 03:38 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Larry B]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
I arrive there by deduction. See this US DOJ page for their summary.
https://www.justice.gov/enrd/us-v-washington

I would think that if alternate sources of income were part of the equation, it would say so, wouldn't it? Something like:

"Up to 50%, but no more than is necessary to provide Indians with a livelihood--that is to say a moderate living, inclusive of all other sources of potential contribution to their said livelihood"...

Again, I'm no lawyer, so take it as my opinion.

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#982044 - 11/29/17 03:39 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: JustBecause]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Btw, I don't think we are being much help to Denham frown

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#982045 - 11/29/17 04:37 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 264
Loc: Tumwater
Denham,

Excellent topic and very complex both biologically and politically. After a 30 year career in fisheries enforcement, not biology, I have no love for gillnets. They are an efficient means of catching fish, but they are pretty much size specific, not specie specific. Under most conditions they catch anything that happens to contact them including sea birds, ducks, crab, shrimp, occasionally smaller fish species and are very wasteful under most applications. Carcassman has covered a lot of what you want to know, and is very knowledgeable. One of my main issues with gillnets is that they snag on under water obstructions, then are cut loose or ripped off, or have drifted away as in the case of some rivers. These "Ghost Nets" then continue to fish and since monofilament has an extremely long life, these ghost nets do considerable evironmental damage for years. Check the Northwest Straits Commission website for good data. You'll be amazed at the amount of destruction that they have done.
The alternative to gillnets would be seines, beach or purse, fish traps or just bidding on hatchery salmon when they get back to the hatchery which is rife with problems of quality, etc. The gillnetters have a very powerful lobby, so that is an obstacle. Another is that they are good guys.

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#982046 - 11/29/17 05:29 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
There has been lots of useful information presented and appreciate that. The info about the ghost nets is very relevant and persuasive which would help my argument greatly. However, what I'm missing is a solution. A solution that would ultimately ban gill nets and have them replaced by alternative, more sustainable fishing methods. Something that citizens could do in order for an action to take place. Any ideas that could be suggested even if they are only theoretical would be great.


Edited by Denham (11/29/17 05:58 PM)

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#982047 - 11/29/17 06:11 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
There are a couple of experimental traps, check out the Wild Fish Conservancy website about it.

Eliminating gillnets will put folks out of work. GN is generally a one-person operation. Seines and traps require multiple people. What individual, whose success or failure sits squarely on him, wants to share his work with others?

Traps, for example, are fixed so you can only fish one place. In a given year a GN can work sockeye, pink, chum, coho, and Chinook by moving around.

I suspect the real question is what would it take to manage our salmon fisheries with minimal by catch, minimal waste, no lost-gear issues.

You might have more success on a ban and on changing public perception if the ghost net issue was brought to the forefront. Especially to publicize the killing of seals and birds. Since there are differences between I and NI gillnets one should be able to ID the broad source of the nets.

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#982048 - 11/29/17 06:15 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
After having done a bit more research it seems like influencing how the tribes fish is not really an option. They are their own separate entity and the only way to influence how they fish is to tweak the Boldt decision which seems excessive if the only means are to stop tribes from using gill nets. If that ever were to happen it would surely affect them in more ways than one.

Perhaps I will just focus more on the commercial gill nets and propose solutions like the fish trap that was recently running on the Columbia for the past two years.

But again, what could we do to see this through?


Edited by Denham (11/29/17 06:56 PM)

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#982049 - 11/29/17 08:43 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Perhaps focus on developing methods that take the target fish and safely release non-target.

Beach seines sound good, but I have tried them for salmon and they can really beat up some fish. In a purse seine one time we wanted to release everything but chum (was test fishing for genetic samples). We got too many fish in the net and killed 100 coho. Stuff happens and we need to look at ways to harvest that are minimally damaging.

Conservation has to be a higher priority with the general public.

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#982055 - 11/30/17 06:14 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
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Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Having tangle netted and seined fish I can say the risk are not fulling understood by most let alone the economic and social drivers. Gill nets are relatively inexpensive and allow the fishers ( particularly tribal members ) to maintain their independence. Seines are more costly to purchase / operate and require much more skill. From experience I can tell you that you make one mistake with a beach seine and you will kill a bunch. Seines can be a success or utter disaster just depends on the skill of the crew manning them as every step of the way your making decisions right or wrong and which are are the only two outcomes.

The only economical harvest method that can be made truly selective is a fish wheel. They would cost a bunch to build, site, and permit. Then this the cash investment would be huge with the total loss of independence to the fisher as it would be a co-op thing or a single individual with deep pockets.
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#982057 - 11/30/17 07:11 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To piggy-back ib Rirguy again (a really smart dude who has been around the block a lot) not only is the gill net itself low-tech and inexpensive but so is the boat. It is a portable one-person show.

To put it in rec terms, would you rather have a really spiffy, fully loaded boat capable of doing the Big Blue in most any condition but be confined to there and have to take three or four of your closest buddies out every time. Or, hip boots, set of various sized rods, and have access to anyplace you could walk or wade?

The Indian fishery is actually closest to the ideal commercial harvest. Localized and terminal. The further you move away from the river itself, the more problems arise in mixed stocks and timing.

For example, the NI commercial fishery on South Sound chum use to occur primarily in areas 10 and 11 where all the SS stocks were mixed. But, they all didn't have the same timing. The NI fishery could, and used to, clobber Kennedy Creek which was the earliest Fall chum. Completely missed Skookum, which was the latest. Fisheries in the appropriate inlets would allow for each stock to be optimally harvested while going lightly or not at all on those in trouble.

The whole management paradigm for Pacific Salmon needs a very holistic review. Won't happen because those doing the most damage have the most money and influence (and I don't mean the Tribes).

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#982058 - 11/30/17 07:22 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 264
Loc: Tumwater
One of the solutions to the gillnet non-selective harvest problem is to buy them out. There are literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent to protect weak salmon stocks. Not many of them really work. One idea would be to take some of these funds and offer to buy out the gillnets so that the fishermen could leave with a smile on their face instead of being legislated out of business. Purse seines, because of their selectivity, could remain in Puget Sound. New laws would have to be created for alternative fishing gear capable of selective harvest and there is much conjecture of what works and doesn't work there. Years ago beach seines were effectively used on the lower Columbia, but salmon were in greater abundance then because ocean harvest was minimal. I think that traps at the mouths of rivers are the answer. But how those traps are managed and who gets to use them is the issue. We manage our public owned logging industry on a bid basis, not a "Derby" basis like our commercial fishing. DNR uses a bid process for the geoduck industry. Put the river mouth traps up for a bid. You get selectivity of hatchery fish abundance, better resource management, better survival. It would change the culture of the industry, of course. But if things don't change to better conservation we are in trouble.

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#982063 - 11/30/17 09:51 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
Denham,

If the ocean mixed-stock fishery that Flea Flicker suggested doesn't appeal to you, may I suggest that you focus on a buy-out/ban on gillnetting on the lower Columbia River (LCR)? That fishery has become an anachronism that is inconsistent with conservation. It is also a non-treaty, non-Indian fleet, so racism is not an issue. And, importantly, there exists a reasonable solution that is consistent with conservation.

The LCR gillnet fishery kills steelhead and wild spring Chinook when hatchery spring Chinook are available for harvest. It takes a mix of hatchery and wild summer Chinook, and then in the fall it takes ESA listed tule fall Chinook while trying to harvest abundant upriver bright Chinook and hatchery tule fall Chinook. The reasonable alternative is fish traps. But not the little one like the one being tested by the Wild Salmonid Conservancy down by Cathlamet. Large fish traps that could trap, sort, and separate by species and hatchery/wild status could be readily retrofitted at fish ladders at Willamette Falls, Bonneville and the Dalles Dams, Barrier Dam on the Cowlitz, and Merwin Dam on the Lewis River. Such traps would allow the sustainable harvest of hatchery origin salmon while safely releasing wild salmon, or when harvestable numbers of wild salmon are available, some of those could be harvested as well.

These would be salmon in good table fare condition because the prospective trapping locations are low in the river system. This alternative uses existing technology that is known to be effective. Only salmon that are known to be harvestable would be removed from spawning populations.

The downside is change. People resist change. Change is hard. Change is not the preferred alternative. Supporting the status quo gillnet fishery is easy. It is traditional for over 100 years. It is also akin to believing that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.

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#982065 - 11/30/17 10:03 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Salmo g.]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Denham,

If the ocean mixed-stock fishery that Flea Flicker suggested doesn't appeal to you, may I suggest that you focus on a buy-out/ban on gillnetting on the lower Columbia River (LCR)? That fishery has become an anachronism that is inconsistent with conservation. It is also a non-treaty, non-Indian fleet, so racism is not an issue. And, importantly, there exists a reasonable solution that is consistent with conservation.

The LCR gillnet fishery kills steelhead and wild spring Chinook when hatchery spring Chinook are available for harvest. It takes a mix of hatchery and wild summer Chinook, and then in the fall it takes ESA listed tule fall Chinook while trying to harvest abundant upriver bright Chinook and hatchery tule fall Chinook. The reasonable alternative is fish traps. But not the little one like the one being tested by the Wild Salmonid Conservancy down by Cathlamet. Large fish traps that could trap, sort, and separate by species and hatchery/wild status could be readily retrofitted at fish ladders at Willamette Falls, Bonneville and the Dalles Dams, Barrier Dam on the Cowlitz, and Merwin Dam on the Lewis River. Such traps would allow the sustainable harvest of hatchery origin salmon while safely releasing wild salmon, or when harvestable numbers of wild salmon are available, some of those could be harvested as well.

These would be salmon in good table fare condition because the prospective trapping locations are low in the river system. This alternative uses existing technology that is known to be effective. Only salmon that are known to be harvestable would be removed from spawning populations.

The downside is change. People resist change. Change is hard. Change is not the preferred alternative. Supporting the status quo gillnet fishery is easy. It is traditional for over 100 years. It is also akin to believing that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.


EXCELLENT!
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1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#982071 - 11/30/17 11:24 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
"Like" on focusing the gillnet discussion on the Lower Columbia!

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#982098 - 11/30/17 07:19 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
One advantage of focusing on GN in either the Lower Columbia or Willapa is that benefits would not be compromised by other gill net fisheries. You could show that elimination of GN resulted in X benefits.

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#982105 - 12/01/17 12:19 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
I wrote up a mock draft last night and focused primarily on the LCR gill net industry. My only problem is I cannot find a "tangible" call to action entailing what citizens could do to help the cause. I understand Oregon dropped out of their end of the bargain as well. If there were some petition people could sign to make a difference that would be great. Opposed to calling or emailing your local legislators which doesn't do much.

By the way, all the feedback has been great and I really appreciate the time folks have taken to help out.

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#982106 - 12/01/17 05:48 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 289
Originally Posted By: Denham
I wrote up a mock draft last night and focused primarily on the LCR gill net industry. My only problem is I cannot find a "tangible" call to action entailing what citizens could do to help the cause. I understand Oregon dropped out of their end of the bargain as well. If there were some petition people could sign to make a difference that would be great. Opposed to calling or emailing your local legislators which doesn't do much.

By the way, all the feedback has been great and I really appreciate the time folks have taken to help out.

I believe that action was being taken ( by CCA?)in ORE. on a petition that would outlaw gill nets on the Columbia a few years ago that was garnering a LOT of attention, so much that the state government made a deal with the group pushing the issue who then withdrew it, but the lying sacks of crap (along with the legislators) double-crossed us all. WTF? I'm sure there are better informed folks on here who might chime in? Just saw Francis's thread on Columbia, "Who'ed have thunk it?" Bob R


Edited by bob r (12/01/17 06:36 AM)

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#982114 - 12/01/17 08:49 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
Denham,

The State Legislature has the authority but not the willpower to modify the LCR gillnet fishery. And WDFW and the Commission opted to delay full implementation of the LCR agreement to phase out gillnets. The call to action would be a Citizen's Initiative supported by CCA, TU, AR, and other conservation organizations. A successful initiative might cost around $2 million.

Sg

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#982149 - 12/02/17 03:38 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Salmo g.]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Had to think some SG on why traps are a hard thing to do on the dams. First it would involve the Feds at several levels along with three states. Second it is impossible to sort out who is who so if you did a dam such as Bonny you would low hole Idaho and the entire inland communities of three states. Then who would get the funds for the sales as the traps would be mostly on federal property. Then the cost to build and operate the traps would be paid by who? The questions and complex nature of the with tribal and NT fisheries would be a hornets nest on fire and a lawyers dream come true.

So yup cleanest and simplest way yes as to the fish. After that it goes down hill fast.
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#982495 - 12/13/17 04:31 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
Presented today... It went well! Thanks all for your help

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#982574 - 12/15/17 03:17 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
beer

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#982614 - 12/17/17 08:25 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: JustBecause]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: JustBecause
I arrive there by deduction. See this US DOJ page for their summary.
https://www.justice.gov/enrd/us-v-washington

I would think that if alternate sources of income were part of the equation, it would say so, wouldn't it? Something like:

"Up to 50%, but no more than is necessary to provide Indians with a livelihood--that is to say a moderate living, inclusive of all other sources of potential contribution to their said livelihood"...

Again, I'm no lawyer, so take it as my opinion.


And neither am I but keeping in mind that the treaty rights are held by the individual tribes the "moderate living, inclusive of all other sources of potential contributions to their said livelihood"...clearly means to this layman that income derived from regular employment of members as well as proceeds from tribal commercial operations (AKA casinos, race tracks and other entertainment venues) count.

I also believe that this issue can be addressed to the Federal District Court should the State have the backbone to pursue it.

Rather than rely upon the DOJ's version of reality here is a link to the actual decision:

https://www.leagle.com/decision/19791101443us65811080
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It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#982634 - 12/18/17 02:36 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Thanks for your review.

I believe gill nets Take more (sportfish) steelhead than (foodfish)coho this time of year.
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