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#982047 - 11/29/17 06:11 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
There are a couple of experimental traps, check out the Wild Fish Conservancy website about it.

Eliminating gillnets will put folks out of work. GN is generally a one-person operation. Seines and traps require multiple people. What individual, whose success or failure sits squarely on him, wants to share his work with others?

Traps, for example, are fixed so you can only fish one place. In a given year a GN can work sockeye, pink, chum, coho, and Chinook by moving around.

I suspect the real question is what would it take to manage our salmon fisheries with minimal by catch, minimal waste, no lost-gear issues.

You might have more success on a ban and on changing public perception if the ghost net issue was brought to the forefront. Especially to publicize the killing of seals and birds. Since there are differences between I and NI gillnets one should be able to ID the broad source of the nets.

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#982048 - 11/29/17 06:15 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
After having done a bit more research it seems like influencing how the tribes fish is not really an option. They are their own separate entity and the only way to influence how they fish is to tweak the Boldt decision which seems excessive if the only means are to stop tribes from using gill nets. If that ever were to happen it would surely affect them in more ways than one.

Perhaps I will just focus more on the commercial gill nets and propose solutions like the fish trap that was recently running on the Columbia for the past two years.

But again, what could we do to see this through?


Edited by Denham (11/29/17 06:56 PM)

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#982049 - 11/29/17 08:43 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Perhaps focus on developing methods that take the target fish and safely release non-target.

Beach seines sound good, but I have tried them for salmon and they can really beat up some fish. In a purse seine one time we wanted to release everything but chum (was test fishing for genetic samples). We got too many fish in the net and killed 100 coho. Stuff happens and we need to look at ways to harvest that are minimally damaging.

Conservation has to be a higher priority with the general public.

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#982055 - 11/30/17 06:14 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Having tangle netted and seined fish I can say the risk are not fulling understood by most let alone the economic and social drivers. Gill nets are relatively inexpensive and allow the fishers ( particularly tribal members ) to maintain their independence. Seines are more costly to purchase / operate and require much more skill. From experience I can tell you that you make one mistake with a beach seine and you will kill a bunch. Seines can be a success or utter disaster just depends on the skill of the crew manning them as every step of the way your making decisions right or wrong and which are are the only two outcomes.

The only economical harvest method that can be made truly selective is a fish wheel. They would cost a bunch to build, site, and permit. Then this the cash investment would be huge with the total loss of independence to the fisher as it would be a co-op thing or a single individual with deep pockets.
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#982057 - 11/30/17 07:11 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To piggy-back ib Rirguy again (a really smart dude who has been around the block a lot) not only is the gill net itself low-tech and inexpensive but so is the boat. It is a portable one-person show.

To put it in rec terms, would you rather have a really spiffy, fully loaded boat capable of doing the Big Blue in most any condition but be confined to there and have to take three or four of your closest buddies out every time. Or, hip boots, set of various sized rods, and have access to anyplace you could walk or wade?

The Indian fishery is actually closest to the ideal commercial harvest. Localized and terminal. The further you move away from the river itself, the more problems arise in mixed stocks and timing.

For example, the NI commercial fishery on South Sound chum use to occur primarily in areas 10 and 11 where all the SS stocks were mixed. But, they all didn't have the same timing. The NI fishery could, and used to, clobber Kennedy Creek which was the earliest Fall chum. Completely missed Skookum, which was the latest. Fisheries in the appropriate inlets would allow for each stock to be optimally harvested while going lightly or not at all on those in trouble.

The whole management paradigm for Pacific Salmon needs a very holistic review. Won't happen because those doing the most damage have the most money and influence (and I don't mean the Tribes).

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#982058 - 11/30/17 07:22 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 264
Loc: Tumwater
One of the solutions to the gillnet non-selective harvest problem is to buy them out. There are literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent to protect weak salmon stocks. Not many of them really work. One idea would be to take some of these funds and offer to buy out the gillnets so that the fishermen could leave with a smile on their face instead of being legislated out of business. Purse seines, because of their selectivity, could remain in Puget Sound. New laws would have to be created for alternative fishing gear capable of selective harvest and there is much conjecture of what works and doesn't work there. Years ago beach seines were effectively used on the lower Columbia, but salmon were in greater abundance then because ocean harvest was minimal. I think that traps at the mouths of rivers are the answer. But how those traps are managed and who gets to use them is the issue. We manage our public owned logging industry on a bid basis, not a "Derby" basis like our commercial fishing. DNR uses a bid process for the geoduck industry. Put the river mouth traps up for a bid. You get selectivity of hatchery fish abundance, better resource management, better survival. It would change the culture of the industry, of course. But if things don't change to better conservation we are in trouble.

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#982063 - 11/30/17 09:51 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
Denham,

If the ocean mixed-stock fishery that Flea Flicker suggested doesn't appeal to you, may I suggest that you focus on a buy-out/ban on gillnetting on the lower Columbia River (LCR)? That fishery has become an anachronism that is inconsistent with conservation. It is also a non-treaty, non-Indian fleet, so racism is not an issue. And, importantly, there exists a reasonable solution that is consistent with conservation.

The LCR gillnet fishery kills steelhead and wild spring Chinook when hatchery spring Chinook are available for harvest. It takes a mix of hatchery and wild summer Chinook, and then in the fall it takes ESA listed tule fall Chinook while trying to harvest abundant upriver bright Chinook and hatchery tule fall Chinook. The reasonable alternative is fish traps. But not the little one like the one being tested by the Wild Salmonid Conservancy down by Cathlamet. Large fish traps that could trap, sort, and separate by species and hatchery/wild status could be readily retrofitted at fish ladders at Willamette Falls, Bonneville and the Dalles Dams, Barrier Dam on the Cowlitz, and Merwin Dam on the Lewis River. Such traps would allow the sustainable harvest of hatchery origin salmon while safely releasing wild salmon, or when harvestable numbers of wild salmon are available, some of those could be harvested as well.

These would be salmon in good table fare condition because the prospective trapping locations are low in the river system. This alternative uses existing technology that is known to be effective. Only salmon that are known to be harvestable would be removed from spawning populations.

The downside is change. People resist change. Change is hard. Change is not the preferred alternative. Supporting the status quo gillnet fishery is easy. It is traditional for over 100 years. It is also akin to believing that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.

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#982065 - 11/30/17 10:03 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Salmo g.]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Denham,

If the ocean mixed-stock fishery that Flea Flicker suggested doesn't appeal to you, may I suggest that you focus on a buy-out/ban on gillnetting on the lower Columbia River (LCR)? That fishery has become an anachronism that is inconsistent with conservation. It is also a non-treaty, non-Indian fleet, so racism is not an issue. And, importantly, there exists a reasonable solution that is consistent with conservation.

The LCR gillnet fishery kills steelhead and wild spring Chinook when hatchery spring Chinook are available for harvest. It takes a mix of hatchery and wild summer Chinook, and then in the fall it takes ESA listed tule fall Chinook while trying to harvest abundant upriver bright Chinook and hatchery tule fall Chinook. The reasonable alternative is fish traps. But not the little one like the one being tested by the Wild Salmonid Conservancy down by Cathlamet. Large fish traps that could trap, sort, and separate by species and hatchery/wild status could be readily retrofitted at fish ladders at Willamette Falls, Bonneville and the Dalles Dams, Barrier Dam on the Cowlitz, and Merwin Dam on the Lewis River. Such traps would allow the sustainable harvest of hatchery origin salmon while safely releasing wild salmon, or when harvestable numbers of wild salmon are available, some of those could be harvested as well.

These would be salmon in good table fare condition because the prospective trapping locations are low in the river system. This alternative uses existing technology that is known to be effective. Only salmon that are known to be harvestable would be removed from spawning populations.

The downside is change. People resist change. Change is hard. Change is not the preferred alternative. Supporting the status quo gillnet fishery is easy. It is traditional for over 100 years. It is also akin to believing that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.


EXCELLENT!
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#982071 - 11/30/17 11:24 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
"Like" on focusing the gillnet discussion on the Lower Columbia!

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#982098 - 11/30/17 07:19 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
One advantage of focusing on GN in either the Lower Columbia or Willapa is that benefits would not be compromised by other gill net fisheries. You could show that elimination of GN resulted in X benefits.

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#982105 - 12/01/17 12:19 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
I wrote up a mock draft last night and focused primarily on the LCR gill net industry. My only problem is I cannot find a "tangible" call to action entailing what citizens could do to help the cause. I understand Oregon dropped out of their end of the bargain as well. If there were some petition people could sign to make a difference that would be great. Opposed to calling or emailing your local legislators which doesn't do much.

By the way, all the feedback has been great and I really appreciate the time folks have taken to help out.

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#982106 - 12/01/17 05:48 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 289
Originally Posted By: Denham
I wrote up a mock draft last night and focused primarily on the LCR gill net industry. My only problem is I cannot find a "tangible" call to action entailing what citizens could do to help the cause. I understand Oregon dropped out of their end of the bargain as well. If there were some petition people could sign to make a difference that would be great. Opposed to calling or emailing your local legislators which doesn't do much.

By the way, all the feedback has been great and I really appreciate the time folks have taken to help out.

I believe that action was being taken ( by CCA?)in ORE. on a petition that would outlaw gill nets on the Columbia a few years ago that was garnering a LOT of attention, so much that the state government made a deal with the group pushing the issue who then withdrew it, but the lying sacks of crap (along with the legislators) double-crossed us all. WTF? I'm sure there are better informed folks on here who might chime in? Just saw Francis's thread on Columbia, "Who'ed have thunk it?" Bob R


Edited by bob r (12/01/17 06:36 AM)

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#982114 - 12/01/17 08:49 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
Denham,

The State Legislature has the authority but not the willpower to modify the LCR gillnet fishery. And WDFW and the Commission opted to delay full implementation of the LCR agreement to phase out gillnets. The call to action would be a Citizen's Initiative supported by CCA, TU, AR, and other conservation organizations. A successful initiative might cost around $2 million.

Sg

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#982149 - 12/02/17 03:38 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Salmo g.]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Had to think some SG on why traps are a hard thing to do on the dams. First it would involve the Feds at several levels along with three states. Second it is impossible to sort out who is who so if you did a dam such as Bonny you would low hole Idaho and the entire inland communities of three states. Then who would get the funds for the sales as the traps would be mostly on federal property. Then the cost to build and operate the traps would be paid by who? The questions and complex nature of the with tribal and NT fisheries would be a hornets nest on fire and a lawyers dream come true.

So yup cleanest and simplest way yes as to the fish. After that it goes down hill fast.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#982495 - 12/13/17 04:31 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
Presented today... It went well! Thanks all for your help

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#982574 - 12/15/17 03:17 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
beer

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#982614 - 12/17/17 08:25 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: JustBecause]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: JustBecause
I arrive there by deduction. See this US DOJ page for their summary.
https://www.justice.gov/enrd/us-v-washington

I would think that if alternate sources of income were part of the equation, it would say so, wouldn't it? Something like:

"Up to 50%, but no more than is necessary to provide Indians with a livelihood--that is to say a moderate living, inclusive of all other sources of potential contribution to their said livelihood"...

Again, I'm no lawyer, so take it as my opinion.


And neither am I but keeping in mind that the treaty rights are held by the individual tribes the "moderate living, inclusive of all other sources of potential contributions to their said livelihood"...clearly means to this layman that income derived from regular employment of members as well as proceeds from tribal commercial operations (AKA casinos, race tracks and other entertainment venues) count.

I also believe that this issue can be addressed to the Federal District Court should the State have the backbone to pursue it.

Rather than rely upon the DOJ's version of reality here is a link to the actual decision:

https://www.leagle.com/decision/19791101443us65811080
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It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#982634 - 12/18/17 02:36 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Thanks for your review.

I believe gill nets Take more (sportfish) steelhead than (foodfish)coho this time of year.
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