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#982825 - 12/25/17 09:45 AM Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz...
milkBottleMikey Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 478
Loc: Spawn Ranch
I stopped by yesterday, what a difference 15-20 years make. Hardly anybody there (or fish either). In the mid-'90s the place was a zoo this time of year because everybody was catching fish.

I know it's been discussed, but I wonder if any consideration was made about crowd dispersal when "they" decided to eliminate the lower river runs to enhance upstream elements, or whatever the motivation was. It's a huge factor, but I guess "those" people are probably not concerned about that.

Merry Christmas!
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#982827 - 12/25/17 10:28 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
Im sure TPL is more than happy to have blue creek parking lot desolate. Have some very fun memories in that parking lot.
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#982828 - 12/25/17 10:49 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
No more a "A" run might have an effect on that. Typically about end of February those B run start to make their way in and goes through mid April. Then you'll see the old girl back to her true form..... maybe worse. wink


Edited by cobble cruiser (12/25/17 10:50 AM)
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#982829 - 12/25/17 11:02 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I think the decisions on Cowlitz steelhead, and probably salmon, were based on ESA concerns. I seriously doubt that there was much real thought given to the impacts to fishing as the decisions were made in a vacuum that does not consider fishing, just ESA and "recovery".

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#982830 - 12/25/17 11:02 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
The early hatchery winter run stock of Chambers Creek origin fish was discontinued at the Cowlitz for the same reason it was discontinued or reduced at many hatcheries. The reason was to reduce genetic introgression between hatchery and wild steelhead. However a good case can and has been made that the Cowlitz was the least apt place for this action. The barrier dam at the Cowlitz salmon hatchery is an absolute physical barrier that prevents any unwanted hatchery salmon or steelhead from reaching the upper watershed and possibly spawning with wild fish. And as for the lower Cowlitz tributaries, even after stocking some of them with hatchery fry or smolts for decades, the Cowlitz steelhead genetic study (2010) indicated an exceedingly low level of hatchery:wild genetic introgression. That is why I said that of all western WA rivers, the Cowlitz had the least of steelhead genetic worries from its early winter hatchery stock program.

Sg

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#982833 - 12/25/17 11:36 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Which would suggest, Salmo, that decisions like Colwitz are based on reasons other than science.

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#982835 - 12/25/17 12:16 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: Carcassman]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Getting rid of the early Cowlitz winter run has been a disaster for fishing conditions on other rivers, especially for fishing guides. Just where are they supposed to go? A lot of them ended up on the Wynoochee which is now a shadow of its former self as far as a good fishing experience goes. Some guides went to other Olympic Peninsula rivers. I'm convinced that there has been no consideration for the impact to other rivers when biological programs change with a head in the sand attitude that governs WDFW. The history goes way back. For instance, when I was a fishcop on the Cowlitz in the 70's we had a tremendous run of spring Chinook, so much so that we increased the limit from two to, six, if I remember right. Stupid, stupid, stupid. So then the prime spots at the barrier dam were snared by Joe Fish Hog, who never moved from there until he got his six. Eliminated a lot of other people from the best spot. The same could be said at Baker Rock: boats anchored in prime spots and stayed there all day until the boat limited. Look at the Olympic Peninsula wild fish rivers. They are open into April, so that steelhead junkies leave the Satsop, Wynoochee and Hump after March and head north. I suggested that those should be open into April also just to spread out the effort, but noooooo. The examples go on and on.

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#982837 - 12/25/17 01:41 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
When I started in WDG staff recognized that license sales paid their salaries. No sales, no jobs. As such, management decisions were at least guided, if not based, on impact to license sales. Hence such things as Opening Day Trout.

When I moved to WDF the agency was funded by GF. As such, at least at the staff level, there was a conservation ethic that over-rode openings, whether sport or commercial. No harvestable? No fishing.

Now, WDFW has to deal with ESA, non-consumptive species, a broader habitat concept, and is yet significantly based on license fees. I doubt that present leadership has really made the concoction that if they don't sell licenses they don't exist. But, because of the decline in species they are caught in the bind of needing to have a conservation ethic and sell licenses.

This is probably exacerbated by the lack of folks in the agency who actively, on their own (not charter boat) pursue fish and game. There is the disconnect between what they do and who is impacted.

They are in a lose-lose situation because society won't pay for the needed conservation and as they regulate the consumptive users out of state they lose funding.

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#982845 - 12/26/17 09:23 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
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"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


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Long Live the Kings!

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#982847 - 12/26/17 09:45 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Ahh the memories. "Big Steelhead 18-20# not uncommon". I thought those Chambers Crk stock were genetically small...5-8#. Cool video. Wonder what year it was shot, and wonder if Dan Ross is still fishing out of Costa Rica? Thanks for sharing.
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#982851 - 12/26/17 10:59 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Uhm-hmm, 18 - 20# steelhead. For every 20# steelhead, there must have been 200 7# fish, just to get some realistic perspective.

Carcassman, the Fisheries Technical Committee thought it was a science based decision (assumption really) to terminate the early hatchery winter run program, but I think that decision was already cast before the results of the genetics study were available. The assumption was that with millions upon millions of hatchery steelhead releases over 50 years, there must have been overwhelming genetic introgression with whatever few wild fish might remain. That's not how I interpret the study results however. The wild fish have no more hatchery introgression than other SW WA streams with typical to even few hatchery releases. The spawn timing separation may have been accidental, but it was very effective.

Sg

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#982856 - 12/26/17 12:40 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I think the real problem with Chambers fish was the return time. I tend to agree with Jeff Cederholm's idea that the early fish went up the tribs and the later fish spawned in mainstems. Even with reproductively incompetent Chambers fish, their very presence resulted in by catch of wilds. Since it is not possible in PS to fish selectively for steelhead, the presence of Chambers fish removes that component.

Saw spawner survey data from the Green and Skagit. My look ended about a decade ago but the Green lost a whole lot of trib spawning and the Skagit some. This actually does fit well with the observation that calculations show that MSY escapement goals for many PS steelhead should be lowered. If you remove a big chunk of the rearing population (they don't redistribute too far up tribs) and the remaining mainstem spawners are most of what is left then the goal can, justifiably, go down.

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#982860 - 12/26/17 01:36 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
While watching the Vine video. The scene with guys fishing the point. I see myself. Guy in the carhart coveralls with red pullover hood.
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#982861 - 12/26/17 02:22 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: eyeFISH]
vapidangler
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: eyeFISH


Dude F that noise lol

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#982866 - 12/26/17 05:26 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Fish mitigation at it's finest.
The deal was it would happen.
Yank all the concrete out of the river.
Eye for an eye bitches.

Meanwhile money talks and power sells.

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#982867 - 12/26/17 05:45 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: eyeFISH]
aznnite Offline
Fry

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Federal Way, WA
Miss those days.....Though the crowds were big, I developed alot of friendships that made fishing in the cold weather tolerable. Plus Cowlitz fish at the time were all BIG.

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#982869 - 12/26/17 07:06 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Quote from SG..."Uhm-hmm, 18 - 20# steelhead. For every 20# steelhead, there must have been 200 7# fish, just to get some realistic perspective".

Hey SG
I don't know about you, but out of the fish I caught and what I saw coming out of the Cow back in 80's and 90's, only a hand full were those smallies. Most were 8-12 big shouldered fish w/ many bigger. They reminded me of the typical Quinault type fish. The small ones, 6-8#ers seemed to be more prevalent in the PS streams like the Puy, Green, Sky, Sno, Wallace, etc. Those were ones I focused my attention back then. If the Chamber's typical 2 salt returned 6-8 #, where did the the big boys come from in the Cow? Did they play selective breeding games to get more of the 3-4 salt returnies? The Quinaults have been doin that for a while now and seeing measured success. Your experience w/ the dept. and knowledge w/ biology, has always been a benefit to this and other boards. Thanks for any response.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#982871 - 12/26/17 07:28 PM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: RUNnGUN]
aznnite Offline
Fry

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Federal Way, WA
Good times! Even fishing early into the millennium was great! Miss those days....

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#982881 - 12/27/17 08:26 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Run-n-gun,

Selective breeding of 3-salt summer runs was common in the hatcheries in SW WA from the mid-70s to early 80s. It might have been done with winter steelhead too at some locations, but I'm not aware of it. Yes, a lot of 3-salt hatchery fish have been caught from the Cowlitz and other rivers, but if you look at 50 years of hatchery winter steelhead in the Cowlitz, there have been way more 6 - 8 # 2-salt fish than 3-salts. Selective breeding was discontinued when the Dept. observed that the smolt to adult return (SAR) was significantly lower, reducing the return on investment, since it cost the same to produce a smolt regardless of the age of the returning adult.

Sg

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#982882 - 12/27/17 09:21 AM Re: Want solitude? Go to the Cowlitz... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Pathetic chain of events and excuses that has allowed this to occur.

Wild fish................................lol.

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