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#983326 - 01/08/18 12:48 PM Skagit C&R
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
I thought the prospects of reopening the CR season on the Skagit/Sauk was great until I read the document indicating that it includes gill netting seasons.

"Co-managers anticipate fisheries directed at adult steelhead may occur in the following areas
(McClure 2017) (Figure 2):
Treaty Fisheries:
● Commercial marine Area 8 (Skagit Bay and Saratoga Passage)
● Freshwater Areas 78C, 78D-1, 78D-2, 78D-3, and 78D-4 to the mouth of the Baker
River; 78O Baker River from the Skagit River to Hwy 20 bridge; 78B Sauk River from
the Skagit River to the Sauk Prairie Road bridge; 78P Cascade River from the Skagit
River to the Rockport/Cascade bridge
● Freshwater Area 78P in the lower reach of the Cascade River "

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#983328 - 01/08/18 12:59 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Harvestable fish get shared. Can't have one without the other.

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#983330 - 01/08/18 02:20 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
wsu Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 422
It's working great on the OP, right?

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#983331 - 01/08/18 02:29 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Brent K Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 108
Loc: Arlington, Washington
From what I have heard and read it looked like they would take those steelhead in their chinook fisheries. Not that it makes it much better but maybe most of them will be able to spawn before being killed in a net.

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#983332 - 01/08/18 03:21 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Carcassman]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Harvestable fish get shared. Can't have one without the other.

I hadn't thought about it that way. So how many days of gill netting will it take to equal the impact of selective gear catch and release? Not many I would think.

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#983333 - 01/08/18 03:54 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1269
Loc: WaRshington
See there's the difference. Our harvest are the fish we release to swim off and make babies. Their harvest is those that are sold at Safeway.
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#983336 - 01/08/18 04:13 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Right. Each side gets X dead fish. The Tribes sell/eat theirs. In a C&R fishery the released fish dies somewhere. Each side gets the same number of dead fish.

C&R is not non-lethal.

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#983337 - 01/08/18 04:35 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Carcassman]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
Really?? I would agree that C&R is not 100% non lethal. With single hook selective gear it is more like 2% lethal. Not sure how many releases are made by sports but it would have to be thousands to kill as many fish as a single gill net.


Edited by jam session (01/08/18 04:57 PM)

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#983338 - 01/08/18 04:51 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Some of this information is dated so it may not be entirely accurate but I think it's close enough to get the idea across.
The management plan was put together by WDFW, three tribes, and the Skagit River System Cooperative. The tribes were involved because that's what co-management means, and it's the law.

It's been reported that the tribes use most of their impacts during the Spring chinook fishery (June) which results in capturing steelhead kelts. This is not accounted for in a 1 for 1 manner, but something like 6 kelts being equal to 1 impact. Reason being that the fish have spawned already and there is reduced likelyhood that most of them will return again.

In the C&R fishery, impacts are calculated at 10% mortality; 10 released = 1 impact.

So what does it all mean?
Lets run some numbers. In the tiered impacts schedule a forecasted run of 5000 fish would allow for 10% impacts. That's 500 dead fish. The Tribes get half and we get half. So for us we are allowed 250 impacts. At a mortality rate of 10% we would have to release 2500 fish to max out the allowed impacts. It's a 12 week season...that means we would have to C&R 208.33 every single week for 12 weeks running. All this while 25% of the run never swims above the downstream fishing barrier!

If you can find a more conservative plan that still allows fishing for steelhead, I'd like to hear about it.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#983339 - 01/08/18 05:00 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: _WW_]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
Thanks for providing the 10% figure. I didn't know that is what it is based on. Seems real conservative. Do you know how that figure was established?

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#983340 - 01/08/18 05:20 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
As I under stand it that is a figure the feds have used for quite awhile. It's considered a safe, (as in making the error on the side of the fish) and I believe first used in the Columbia basin. Perhaps Salmo or Carcassman can confirm and flesh out a few more of the details.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#983341 - 01/08/18 05:36 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
Reason I ask is that I think that figure should depend a lot on allowed technique. That seems like a bait, treble hook kind of number. Is that even in the discussion?


Edited by jam session (01/08/18 05:38 PM)

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#983342 - 01/08/18 05:52 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Again, the higher number is used to er on the side of the fish.
The two upcoming meetings are for WDFW to collect thought from anglers about what rules to use. I predict it will probably be selective gear rules, no bait, single barbless hook.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#983343 - 01/08/18 06:03 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
FleaFlickr02 Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
We all seem to agree that 10% is more than the actual mortality associated with C&R on riverine steelhead. The catch is that the same 10% figure is used to estimate C&R impacts in all fisheries, including saltwater salmon, where most would agree the actual impact is probably more than 10% (a lot more for coho). To model fisheries, you need some parameters. Under the treaty, if we get to play with 2500 fish, they get to kill 250. That's where we're at.

Nobody said we actually have to kill our 250 (assuming we can catch our 2500). Treat them with respect, and shoot for an impact somewhere closer to 1%.

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#983344 - 01/08/18 06:11 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
My interest is in managing the Gill net share to a minimum since it is 100% kill. How is catch rate for sporties established? No fishing with motor reduces this for example. What is the assumed impact for a week of C&R?

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#983345 - 01/08/18 06:17 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
Oh and I do completely agree with Flea that the mortality for immature salmon in the sound is much higher. Trolling with downriggers and big hooks kill a lot of shakers. Much lower number for rivers.

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#983346 - 01/08/18 06:32 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1194
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
Don't underestimate how lethal it is to overplay a fish, net it, grab it a bunch of times and take tons of pictures of it! Not as lethal as a gill net, but still. . .

. . .sorry, somebody had to say it!

fb
_________________________
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All Hail, The Devil Makes Three

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#983347 - 01/08/18 06:39 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
Totally agree so let’s educate people to not do that. Most who would participate in this fishery already know

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#983348 - 01/08/18 06:55 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: fishbadger]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Originally Posted By: fishbadger
Don't underestimate how lethal it is to overplay a fish, net it, grab it a bunch of times and take tons of pictures of it! Not as lethal as a gill net, but still. . .

. . .sorry, somebody had to say it!

fb

I would think that the majority of us that are careful will balance out against those that aren't. As for how many get encountered in a C&R week? The answer is...it depends on the week. Thinking back on my fishing in the nineties I don't think I ever heard of more than 15 in a day... and often you wouldn't hear of any in the evening at Howard Miller...but then I wasn't going around asking either. Since I live here, most often I would just fish the last hole and head home. I do remember guides going days without touching one.

Lots of folks are thinking they'll just have to show up to the Skagit and they'll hook up. Tain't necessarily so and I'm sure a great many will be disappointed and start clamoring "the run is down!"

The Skagit and Saulk have a lot of water that several thousand fish can just disappear in...and we only get to fish a portion of it. You'll work your ass off for a grab!
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#983351 - 01/08/18 07:46 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
Oh yeah! yes i will👍

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#983363 - 01/09/18 06:48 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: _WW_]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
_WW_ spot on when he says hookups will be rare. Just glad to hear an "opportunity" may exist. Getting a tug makes all the effort worth while. Thanks to all you folks that put in the time to make this a reality. Not to be to optimistic, but maybe something to build on to expand around on some other PS rivers in my neck of the woods.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#983364 - 01/09/18 07:04 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: RUNnGUN]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
_WW_ spot on when he says hookups will be rare. Just glad to hear an "opportunity" may exist. Getting a tug makes all the effort worth while. Thanks to all you folks that put in the time to make this a reality. Not to be to optimistic, but maybe something to build on to expand around on some other PS rivers in my neck of the woods.


It's always been mainly about "Basin by basin management" It had to start somewhere and the Skagit is the best candidate. Legislators are in session, WDFW needs more money, send some emails!
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#983370 - 01/09/18 09:55 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Jam Session,

The 10% incidental mortality rate came about by agreement between NMFS, WDFW, ODFW, and treaty tribes. I guess you could say it's more policy based than science based. They needed a number, and 10% is the number all were apparently willing to agree to. To those of us who participate in several types and areas of fishing 10% is likely too low for some and too high for others. But it's the number we're stuck with unless and until definitive studies for specific fisheries occur.

You seemed surprised that the treaty tribes will also be fishing under this plan. You don't think the co-managers would go to all this effort just so you and I and other recreational anglers can fish, do you? Besides, what a lot of folks seem to miss is the tribes have fished some in the past, they are and have been fishing for some steelhead recently, and they will continue to fish some for steelhead in the future, plan or no plan. This plan however puts some sideboards on everyone's fishing that is designed to ensure the conservation of Skagit wild steelhead. It's a good thing. Unwind and relax.

Sg

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#983384 - 01/09/18 02:17 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1269
Loc: WaRshington
I for one would be elated just to FISH my home waters again before I'm fvcking dead.
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#983404 - 01/09/18 08:41 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Salmo g.]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Jam Session,

The 10% incidental mortality rate came about by agreement between NMFS, WDFW, ODFW, and treaty tribes. I guess you could say it's more policy based than science based. They needed a number, and 10% is the number all were apparently willing to agree to. To those of us who participate in several types and areas of fishing 10% is likely too low for some and too high for others. But it's the number we're stuck with unless and until definitive studies for specific fisheries occur.

Sg


It totally makes sense to use a made up 10% figure for all fisheries.

Totally.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#983406 - 01/09/18 09:01 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
ONE ( as in singular solitary ) hook point, barbless, baitless... should be a NO BRAINER.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#983407 - 01/09/18 09:04 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Personally looking forward to an opportunity (or two) to huck a Skagit line into its namesake water.... been a MIGHTY long time.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#983414 - 01/10/18 05:30 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: eyeFISH]
Kinetic Kwik Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 761
Loc: sum x wet,sum x dry WA 4 Life
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
ONE ( as in singular solitary ) hook point, barbless, baitless... should be a NO BRAINER.


Speaking of no brainers

Originally Posted By: fishbadger
Don't underestimate how lethal it is to overplay a fish, net it, grab it a bunch of times and take tons of pictures of it!

fb


But, HEY!

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#983416 - 01/10/18 06:55 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Might the C&R season include the Sauk?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#983417 - 01/10/18 06:58 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
But then, science gets in the way. Single barbless and single barbed (at least flies) don't show a demonstrable difference in survival. It is easier to get a barbless hook out of a fish, friend, or myself but the data don't show a benefit to the fish.

There was a really interesting study, on ID trout, that used barbed flies, circle-hook bait, and treble-hooked lures. And, they studied survival over months rather than days. Best was flies, marginally worse was bait, and way worse was the trebles.

I believe that single barbless, lures only, is probably the socially and politically best way to go, coupled with mandatory non-removal from the water but there do exist alternatives that are as effective at releasing live fish.

Back when I worked with regs, I believe that the application of scent was considered "bait".

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#983423 - 01/10/18 09:09 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
The Selective Gear regulations (single, barbless, no bait) were in effect from 1981 through the 2009 season with zero evidence that fishing had any measurable negative effect on runsize. Selective Gear on the Skagit and Sauk is an accepted tradition at this point. I doubt WDFW wants to mess with success right off the bat when the Skagit is re-opened. Face it, the Skagit steelhead is the only PR success in the Puget Sound region for the Department since the Baker sockeye come back in 2010.

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#983428 - 01/10/18 10:32 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: GodLovesUgly]
Jake Dogfish Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/24/00
Posts: 554
Loc: Des Moines
Originally Posted By: GodLovesUgly
I for one would be elated just to FISH my home waters again before I'm fvcking dead.


You are not alone. That is the reason why they are opening it.

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#983464 - 01/11/18 08:15 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: _WW_]
Cozmo Offline
Smolt

Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 94
Loc: Ballard, Wa
Originally Posted By: _WW_
Some of this information is dated so it may not be entirely accurate but I think it's close enough to get the idea across.
The management plan was put together by WDFW, three tribes, and the Skagit River System Cooperative. The tribes were involved because that's what co-management means, and it's the law.

It's been reported that the tribes use most of their impacts during the Spring chinook fishery (June) which results in capturing steelhead kelts. This is not accounted for in a 1 for 1 manner, but something like 6 kelts being equal to 1 impact. Reason being that the fish have spawned already and there is reduced likelyhood that most of them will return again.

In the C&R fishery, impacts are calculated at 10% mortality; 10 released = 1 impact.

So what does it all mean?
Lets run some numbers. In the tiered impacts schedule a forecasted run of 5000 fish would allow for 10% impacts. That's 500 dead fish. The Tribes get half and we get half. So for us we are allowed 250 impacts. At a mortality rate of 10% we would have to release 2500 fish to max out the allowed impacts. It's a 12 week season...that means we would have to C&R 208.33 every single week for 12 weeks running. All this while 25% of the run never swims above the downstream fishing barrier!

If you can find a more conservative plan that still allows fishing for steelhead, I'd like to hear about it.



Good points. Can you clarify what "All this while 25% of the run never swims above the downstream fishing barrier" means?


Edited by Cozmo (01/11/18 08:15 AM)
Edit Reason: I can't spell

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#983466 - 01/11/18 10:01 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Cozmo,

I won't swear to WW's 25%, but a good portion of the Skagit wild steelhead run stages in the area downstream of the lower fishing boundary until after the season closes, March 15 for the middle river and April 30 for the upper reach upstream of the Dalles bridge, when they then migrate further upstream to spawn.

Sg

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#983487 - 01/11/18 10:36 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Salmo g.]
Cozmo Offline
Smolt

Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 94
Loc: Ballard, Wa
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Cozmo,

I won't swear to WW's 25%, but a good portion of the Skagit wild steelhead run stages in the area downstream of the lower fishing boundary until after the season closes, March 15 for the middle river and April 30 for the upper reach upstream of the Dalles bridge, when they then migrate further upstream to spawn.

Sg


Are you referencing what the seasons used to be prior to the Jan 31st closures?

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#983493 - 01/12/18 09:19 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Cozmo,

Yes.

Sg

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#984286 - 01/26/18 04:19 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Any word on when or if a Skagit/Sauk C & R season will occur this year? Any time frame on pending announcements?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#984296 - 01/26/18 07:18 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: eyeFISH]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 16138
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
Personally looking forward to an opportunity (or two) to huck a Skagit line into its namesake water.... been a MIGHTY long time.

I hope that it comes to fruition.
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein.

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#984298 - 01/26/18 07:23 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
I exchanged a lot of email today with regional bio Brett Barkdull today following the departments meeting with NOAA on the topic. He indicated the department is trying to fulfill Unsworths promise and schedule a substantial season. Right now, if all things go well, we are looking at 3/1 to 4/15. That's a pretty good estimate, but it isnt etched in stone yet. This issue exposes funding flexibility for the department. In order to get more than two weeks, some other program is going to lose money. More once I l know it...
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You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#984301 - 01/26/18 08:45 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
They could make money with an endorsement for that time frame.. 10 bucks like the Columbia?
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ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION


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#984307 - 01/27/18 01:47 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Sky-Guy]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 16138
Thanks for the info Sky. thumbs
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein.

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#984308 - 01/27/18 05:21 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Why does it cost us money to allow fishing on a river that is operated by mother nature? There should be no major expenses incurred by the WDFW. 5 minutes to post the opening on their website and some salary for enforcement. They don't need half of their staff up there. The expenses should be minimal. Why does the WDFW always have an excuse for not getting something done instead of finding creative ways to make things possible? Besides the obvious answer that it's a government agency. I would submit to the WDFW that they've already spent more money just talking about it, than it would cost to open it.

Like Evo said, make a stamp or whatever. KISS principle. Get creative, find a solution. It's not hard, so don't make it hard. Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but it doesn't seem like it should be this difficult.

On this note, how many other "opportunities" are we missing out on because they don't have the funds?

"Sorry folks, Wallyworld is closed. The moose out front shoulda told ya". BS.
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#984309 - 01/27/18 05:47 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
I talked with Barkdull yesterday. Federal approval hasn't happened yet and he was going to have a meeting with Warren in the afternoon.

One another note, he mentioned the coho forecast this year be enough to keep the Skagit open for gamefish this fall.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#984313 - 01/27/18 06:56 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
A fishery like that would require both enforcement and on the water monitoring. The days of auto-pilot management (should) be gone. WDFW simply no longer has the staff to do those things. Not only other priorities but simply lack of people.

Open a fishery on the Skagit and the enforcement that was doing shellfish, other steelhead, salmon, wildlife would have to be shifted. Due to the way money is managed, staff is assigned specific budgets, tasks, and times. When we wanted to open new/odd/different fisheries we checked with Enforcement to see if there were any officers available as they were given monthly (I think) work plans. Deviation meant either overtime of not doing something else.

The Columbia Endorsement was initially intended only for the Upper River because WDFW always said they didn't have the money to add monitoring and enforcement on those ESA-constrained fisheries. That may not be how it is used now, but that is how it was drafted.

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#984314 - 01/27/18 07:10 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
fishbreath Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 270
Loc: Bellingham,WA
Why would anybody bring up an endorsement fee? I'm already paying for a license that gives me VERY little opportunity to keep and kill fish. Living in Whatcom County and fishing mainly the Nooksack River gives me little opportunity to actually catch a fish let alone keep one. I'm absolutely fine and on board with C & R and depending on if the Skagit turns into a zoo fishery or not, I do plan to fish it. However why should I pay even a dime more for the opportunity to fish a river that requires me to release my catch? Open the river and give me some value for the license I'm already paying for!

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#984316 - 01/27/18 07:32 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Monitoring and enforcement will absolutely be required. And since nobody likes to work for free, it's going to cost money. Welcome to the new era of fishing under ESA listings.
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Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#984318 - 01/27/18 07:55 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: _WW_]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5201
Loc: Carkeek Park
Originally Posted By: _WW_


One another note, he mentioned the coho forecast this year be enough to keep the Skagit open for gamefish this fall.


Very interesting to say the least.
A lot different then the party line I'd expected after the 2015 coho season.
SF
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Founding Member - 2023 Pink Plague Opposition Party
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#984324 - 01/27/18 10:20 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
To answer a couple of questions earlier in this thread.

"There should be no major expenses incurred by the WDFW. 5 minutes to post the opening on their website and some salary for enforcement."

To allow us to fish they will have to meet the requirements of the plan for monitoring. At minimum this will be four techs at various and moving locations in the areas open to interview anglers as to encounters, locations of encounters, number in party, number of vehicles in party, and a couple other things I can't remember off the top of my head. All of this is in addition to a minimum of two enforcement agents. Estimated cost for a 10 -12 week season; $110,000.

"C&R mortality rates."

The rate used 10%. Best to err on the side of the fish.

"Like Evo said, make a stamp or whatever. KISS principle."

WDFW cannot impose any fees without legislative approval. In their recent budget increase request was the funding to run Skagit C&R seasons and the sockeye seasons for two years along with a host of other programs. The budget increase, which included higher license fees was turned down by your elected officials.

"I would submit to the WDFW that they've already spent more money just talking about it, than it would cost to open it."

You might actually be right about that. We first approached them about creating this season five years ago!

"I'm already paying for a license that gives me VERY little opportunity to keep and kill fish."

Lowland lakes will still open this year!

"However why should I pay even a dime more for the opportunity to fish a river that requires me to release my catch?"

When was the last time you got a pay raise? ESA requirements will make it more expensive for WDFW to provide opportunity.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#984359 - 01/27/18 12:48 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
What I'm saying is that it costs nothing to open a river. Just say its open. That's it. That's all it takes. Studies, monitoring, enforcement et al. is job justification and NOT required. ESA or not. Are they around "monitoring" when tribes are netting the crap out of ESA listed fish? Nope - they're nowhere to be found. It's not a requirement, it's a "nice to have" for job justification.

For example, there is exactly ONE WDFW officer for all of Whidbey Island. The largest Island in the US. Do they shut down deer hunting on the Island because of that? No, they do not. Can he be everywhere at the same time "monitoring" all of the hunters? No, he cannot. The show goes on with or without them around. Why would this be any different?

It's just excuses, excuses, excuses all the time.
_________________________
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#984367 - 01/27/18 02:23 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Not taking the bait Nick. Have a nice day! smile
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Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#984388 - 01/27/18 07:50 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
LocalTalent Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 137
The enforcement cost smells funny. WDFW apparently doesn't put any enforcement on closed rivers, so they're not busy doing that anywhere in the area. Waterfowl will be closed, so they won't be doing that. Deer and elk will be closed. Bear will be closed. Lowland lakes won't be open yet. I'm not a saltwater guy but I know there can't be much going on out there in March and April. Exactly what will enforcement personnel be doing if there's no Skagit season?

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#984393 - 01/27/18 08:05 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
LocalTalent Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 137
No enforcement for the river in March & April, but they'll have a bunch out checking people for the trout opener at the end of April?
I do love the announcement that they can't open it without enforcement. Another way to say it is that nobody will be around to catch you if it doesn't open and you fish anyway.

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#984399 - 01/27/18 10:00 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Blu13 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 213
Not sure if this has been covered.

I attended the Mill Creek meeting. I've followed this some but not nearly as involved as a number of the people at the meeting. Meeting was packed. Standing room only. The Bio in charge of the project (not Brett)was reviewing the project and went into Days that we will be able to fish. During his explanation, he mentioned 14 days. I caught it but figured I was just not up to date. That the people there pushing this for us knew what he was talking about. I was wrong. I think it was after the Bio mentioned the 14 days a 2nd time Tom Nelson spoke up and asked something like "did I hear you right? 14 days we will be on the water?".

The answer was Yes!! You could hear 100 + jaws hit the floor. The bedlam erupted. People were like where did this come from etc. Turns out that between NOAA, The Tribes & WDFW this will be a Highly Monitored fishery. The deal they made was that 4 Biologists & 2 WDFW Enforcement Officers have to be there every day we are fishing. That is where the funding comes in and what WDFW says is the lack of Man Power. Throw in that it is North of Falcon time for the Bio's and you have problems.

Then the funding issue got more interesting because people pushing this had been to 2 meetings where the WDFW Director had pledged to get Full Funding for the season. They stated he said it at 2 meetings and it was on tape.

At this point I'm not sure where the funding etc stands. I will tell you they use a 10% Mortality # to give the Tribes a quota and Sportsmen a #.

At least 1 person brought up "why bother for 14 days" because if the river is blown out it would still count as a day (not sure where that stands). My experience is if you don't take an opportunity or give it back there is a tendency to not get it again. I hope this helped.

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#984404 - 01/28/18 06:24 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Blu, that's a pretty good wrap on the meeting at Mill Creek. I'm the one that mentioned the director's promise and asked what funding would be needed for a full season. Edward Eleazer was the main presenter.

Personally I would take the 14 days if that's all they can afford. It would be a start and would demonstrate the popularity of the season.
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Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#984406 - 01/28/18 08:18 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The monitoring is a two-edged sword. Since the fishery it to a number of encounters, when that is hit the fishery should close. But, if for whatever reason the encounters allocated are not met (storms, angler incompetence, bad luck) then the fishery should be extended based on observed encounter rates.

Too often we have seen the result of auto-pilot fisheries.

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#984434 - 01/28/18 01:14 PM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Sky-Guy]
Ikissmykiss Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 1260
Loc: Snohomish County
Originally Posted By: Sky-Guy
Right now, if all things go well, we are looking at 3/1 to 4/15.

Much better than 2/1 to 2/15 thumbs

I agree with Nick and Talent on the enforcement and monitoring issue. Up until Jan 31st there are many, many Puget Sound rivers open to steelheading, including the Skagit and Sauk. If they can afford to monitor and enforce these plethora of rivers right now, why can't they afford it when it will be the ONLY system in PS to monitor?

Back when it was open, Todd and gang fished it from Wed - Sun every week in March and April. That's a lot of days on the river, and I don't recall being checked one single time, ever...on the river, at the takeout, or at camp.

Ike

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#984490 - 01/29/18 05:34 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Ikissmykiss]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Originally Posted By: Ikissmykiss
Originally Posted By: Sky-Guy
Right now, if all things go well, we are looking at 3/1 to 4/15.

Much better than 2/1 to 2/15 thumbs

I agree with Nick and Talent on the enforcement and monitoring issue. Up until Jan 31st there are many, many Puget Sound rivers open to steelheading, including the Skagit and Sauk. If they can afford to monitor and enforce these plethora of rivers right now, why can't they afford it when it will be the ONLY system in PS to monitor?

Back when it was open, Todd and gang fished it from Wed - Sun every week in March and April. That's a lot of days on the river, and I don't recall being checked one single time, ever...on the river, at the takeout, or at camp.

Ike

Those were the good ole days! And all of that was before the steelhead were listed as "threatened" under the ESA. The simple fact is, the rules have changed. And, there is a close to 0% chance that the rules will change back. In order to fish the C&R season, these are the rules that will govern the fishery. Liking it is not a part of the equation. Not fishing is certainly one of the choices...one that we'd like to avoid.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#985503 - 02/15/18 09:25 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Sky-Guy]
Brent K Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 108
Loc: Arlington, Washington
Is there any news? I bet last weekend would have been good after the high water we had.

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#985504 - 02/15/18 09:27 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: jam session]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
Season is still under NOAA review per Susan Bishop last week. She said it would be early march before they issue a response to WDFW.
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You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#985505 - 02/15/18 09:50 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Sky-Guy]
Brent K Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 108
Loc: Arlington, Washington
Thanks for the quick reply! I wish government was that fast.

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#985569 - 02/16/18 09:04 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Sky-Guy]
Jason Beezuz Offline
My Waders are Moist

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3440
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: Sky-Guy
Season is still under NOAA review per Susan Bishop last week. She said it would be early march before they issue a response to WDFW.


This is sorta good news because if they only open it for 14 days it would be best for those days to be in March.
_________________________
Maybe he's born with it.

Maybe it's amphetamines.

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#985581 - 02/16/18 10:28 AM Re: Skagit C&R [Re: Jason Beezuz]
Brent K Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 108
Loc: Arlington, Washington
And those days will surely be 60° and pouring rain. At least that would be my luck.

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