Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#987948 - 04/12/18 08:30 PM NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
.... comin'at'cha for 2018.



Willapa Bay will open for salmon on July 1 under concurrent regs with the ocean (MA-2)... 2 fish bag, one chinook, release wild coho.

On Aug 1, WDFW plans to implement a new control zone at the mouth of WB.... the area between the blue line (current rec boundary) and the black line (new demarcation between Leadbetter and Marker 11) shall be CLOSED to rec fishing to protect depressed non-local and/or ESA-listed stocks which have been found to be impacted in appreciable numbers within this zone. The control zone shall be re-opened in-season when it is determined that these non-local stocks have moved thru and the overwhelming majority of salmon encounters in this zone are local WB-origin fish. It is anticipated this would occur sometime after Labor Day, give or take a few days.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

Top
#987954 - 04/13/18 12:20 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
snit Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1844
Loc: Wenatchee, WA
OK
_________________________
..."the clock looked at me just like the devil in disguise"...

Top
#987958 - 04/13/18 06:04 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
milkBottleMikey Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 478
Loc: Spawn Ranch
No "early" fishing at Washaway? More like oh well, no need for saltwater license.
_________________________
Illegitimi non carborundum

Top
#987971 - 04/13/18 11:37 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
steelhead59 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Olympia, WA
Sure, most productive area to fish "dip in's" feeding in shore out of the ocean. After this year Willapa Bay is a done deal any way with a 90% reduction in Hatchery production of Chinook.

Top
#988000 - 04/14/18 10:40 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
Geoduck Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 437
Whose brain child is this?

So the plan is to eliminate the hatchery production supporting all fishing inside of tokeland, then eliminate all fishing outside of tokeland.

The only place in the entire bay that the Rec fleet consistently accesses nemah and naselle hatchery chinook is outside of tokeland (aka washaway beach). Guess what, after this year, there is a 10-fold reduction in forks creek production. Nemah and nasselle fish are all that will be avialable to WB with nowhere except the river for the fleet to access them.

I thought WB was supposedly managed as a rec priority on chinook?

What stocks are we supposedly protecting with this plan?


Edited by Geoduck (04/14/18 10:57 AM)
_________________________
Dig Deep!

Top
#988002 - 04/14/18 11:40 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: Geoduck]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5077
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: Geoduck
Whose brain child is this?

So the plan is to eliminate the hatchery production supporting all fishing inside of tokeland, then eliminate all fishing outside of tokeland.

The only place in the entire bay that the Rec fleet consistently accesses nemah and naselle hatchery chinook is outside of tokeland (aka washaway beach). Guess what, after this year, there is a 10-fold reduction in forks creek production. Nemah and nasselle fish are all that will be avialable to WB with nowhere except the river for the fleet to access them.

I thought WB was supposedly managed as a rec priority on chinook?

What stocks are we supposedly protecting with this plan?


Did you go to the NOF meetings that led to the 2015 Willapa Management Plan ?????? Now is not the time to question, 4 years ago was the time to be involved .....

I don't fish Willapa Bay, at all.....but I went to many meetings. Grays Harbor is where I fish.....I go to all meetings.... quiet I am not!!!!!
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

Top
#988004 - 04/14/18 01:00 PM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
I thought the SR Chinook were the stock of concern not the lower CR Tules?

Moving rec boats out towards the breakers area is a bad idea IMHO.
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

Top
#988006 - 04/14/18 03:03 PM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
Geoduck Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 437
Sorry guys,I was involved in the policy. I failed, but not from lack of trying to reason with WDFW. I resigned from the WB advisory board several years ago because WDFW wouldn't police the flagrant violations of there advisory board code of conduct. That's a whole different story.

Unfortunately WDFW is not following WB policy in any meaningful way other than trying to meet their impact goals. What we're doing now looking nothing like the rec priority we were sold.


we made the point about not moving boats out into the breakers/washaway, tirelessly for years, but WDFW could care less about maintaining the only viable small boat rec fishery for chinook. Angler safety, not a concern either So much hogwash from WDFW on this issue it pains me to remember.

If the limiting stock is chinook for this new exclusion zone, I think the already in place WB regs of release of all wild chinook should be sufficient.

I'm failing to understand any logic to the plan so far.
_________________________
Dig Deep!

Top
#988009 - 04/14/18 04:55 PM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
Happy Birthday Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The logic would be that the recs were given first shot (priority) to the Chinook. Since they couldn't catch them we will need to go after them with gill nets. The recs obviously had opportunity ahead of the nets; it was open and they failed to achieve the necessary catch.

Top
#988010 - 04/14/18 05:29 PM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
CM-

Not sure that I'm following your logic that the recs couldn't catch the them. The first year of the new policy was 2015 and that is the most recent year that I can find total catch information.

That year the rec. catch in MA 2-1 was 10,048 Chinook and the freshwater catch was 6,109 for a total of 16,656 recreational catch in the terminal area. The same year the commercial landings was 4,858. It seems to me that the recreational fleet did a pretty creditable job of catching the available hatchery fish will limiting the impacts on the wild stocks of concern; exactly what the plan called for.

Could it be that the plan worked to well?

Of course the long term concern is that moving the reducing the Willapa hatchery production and moving that production to the Naselle will assure that the marine rec fleet will be less successful and there will be an increase needed for increased commercial landings- hardily fitting with the state goal of providing a priority to the recreational fishery.

At least at a distance it looks like even when WDFW is successful they find ways to mess things up.

Curt

Top
#988012 - 04/14/18 06:11 PM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
Happy Birthday Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Fom what I have read here, moving the recs inside more would educe their catch. Need to reduce the catch to save for the nets. Conversations with locals suggest that WDDW simply does not want to give fish to the recs if it impacts the nets.

But, as your to your comment about WDFW messing up, one of my bosses comments about particular incompetence was "They could screw up a wet dream".

Top
#988014 - 04/14/18 07:28 PM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
I think the last half dozen posts missed this part...

.... the area between the blue line (current rec boundary) and the black line (new demarcation between Leadbetter and Marker 11) shall be CLOSED to rec fishing to protect depressed non-local and/or ESA-listed stocks which have been found to be impacted in appreciable numbers within this zone. The control zone shall be re-opened in-season when it is determined that these non-local stocks have moved thru and the overwhelming majority of salmon encounters in this zone are local WB-origin fish.

It was an eleventh hour surprise that was dropped on the committee just prior to the final PFMC week.

Original discussion was about simply re-drawing the boundary between the ocean (MA 2) and WB( MA2-1)..... essentially expanding the recreational ocean area and shrinking the bay. Options were to draw demarcation lines from Leadbetter Point north to:

1) the jetty (existing comm boundary)
2) marker 11
3) marker 13
4) marker 15
5) Toke Point

In the end, WDFW chose to preserve the existing rec boundary, but also create a small "control zone" with a second demarcation thru marker 11 as pictured.

Said control zone could be turned on when non-local depressed/ESA stocks are present in significant numbers, and turned off when they are not. The idea here is to ensure that the WB fishery remains directed at local (WB-origin) stock.

NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS....

...

In that sense, this is a UNIQUE rationale for creating a control zone. Typically these CZ's have been created to prevent the ocean from taking depressed local stocks as they make their way into the estuary.... as in the GH control zone for chinook. In this case, the WB control zone is being invoked to minimize the bay fishery's encounters with non-local ESA-listed CR stock which was NOT previously being accounted for.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

Top
#988017 - 04/15/18 07:09 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
I think the last half dozen posts missed this part...

.... the area between the blue line (current rec boundary) and the black line (new demarcation between Leadbetter and Marker 11) shall be CLOSED to rec fishing to protect depressed non-local and/or ESA-listed stocks which have been found to be impacted in appreciable numbers within this zone. The control zone shall be re-opened in-season when it is determined that these non-local stocks have moved thru and the overwhelming majority of salmon encounters in this zone are local WB-origin fish.

It was an eleventh hour surprise that was dropped on the committee just prior to the final PFMC week.

Original discussion was about simply re-drawing the boundary between the ocean (MA 2) and WB( MA2-1)..... essentially expanding the recreational ocean area and shrinking the bay. Options were to draw demarcation lines from Leadbetter Point north to:

1) the jetty (existing comm boundary)
2) marker 11
3) marker 13
4) marker 15
5) Toke Point

In the end, WDFW chose to preserve the existing rec boundary, but also create a small "control zone" with a second demarcation thru marker 11 as pictured.

Said control zone could be turned on when non-local depressed/ESA stocks are present in significant numbers, and turned off when they are not. The idea here is to ensure that the WB fishery remains directed at local (WB-origin) stock.

NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS....

...

In that sense, this is a UNIQUE rationale for creating a control zone. Typically these CZ's have been created to prevent the ocean from taking depressed local stocks as they make their way into the estuary.... as in the GH control zone for chinook. In this case, the WB control zone is being invoked to minimize the bay fishery's encounters with non-local ESA-listed CR stock which was NOT previously being accounted for.


Sounds like good reasoning, but following the same reasoning, shouldn't the entire Pacific coast be "controlled" in a similar fashion? If we can't fish the Washaway area due to impacts on migrating stocks, how do we justify the free for all those same fish are subjected to, all along the coast, before they reach the Willapa Control Zone? I'll bet you a dollar more of the ESA damage is done outside that zone than within.

If we want to effectively protect endangered runs, we must do so all along the migratory paths those runs follow. I suppose this change will save a few of the endangered fish, but it'll only be a small percentage of whatever's left after the same stocks have made their way down the Alaska and BC coastlines (not to mention swimming past Neah Bay, LaPush, and Grays Harbor).

Put another way, this looks like yet another misguided punishment of recrearional anglers in the name of doing too little, too late. Yet another way to say it would be "Par for the course."

Top
#988018 - 04/15/18 07:26 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
Happy Birthday Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Some of it may be in bookkeeping. Fish taken in WB normally count against WB only. The dip-ins are free. Plus, since WB is not part of I/NI sharing, none of those (if called WB fish) would count against shares.

A couple of solutions, while still allowing the area to be fished, would be to establish a composition and reflect that it planning and accounting. It is somewhat similar to a fishery that AK pursues, or at least used to. They accessed a modest number of Fraser sockeye in a specific net fishery. Those fish were then charged to and deducted from the US share, which reduced fisheries down here. Plus, since the fishery was outside of the are that the Fraser Panel controlled, they had no real input of the fishery; just hope they got the numbers in time to properly account for them.

Top
#988021 - 04/15/18 07:56 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4407
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

WB dip in touted as Columbia fish ( Chinook ) after dna ended up give or take 50% Willapa 25% GH and Columbia and others the rest. Add to the mix Coho GH & Queets were the limiting stocks and wella " Houston we have a problem." You see the bloody fish has zero respects for our desire that they just go straight home. You see they wander around totally unaware for our desire they not do so. Stupid fish!
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#988022 - 04/15/18 08:19 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
Happy Birthday Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Having been in the managing and accounting circus there are some reasons for the assumptions made. First, it is way too expensive to monitor the daily catch for composition. And it can change daily.

Boldt (pre-ESA) complicated things by requiring sharing. As a consequence, managers were forced to make assumptions. These, at the 5,000' level, made sense. At the actual daily level, on the ground, it doesn't.

We know, for example, that Hood Canal chum are in the east Kitsap Bays. They get accounted as South Sound. If you wanted to account for them as HC you would make significant changes in the fisheries.

ESA put another wrench in, as tagging shows distribution and the occasional listed fish shows up in odd places. For example, smolts tagged in Duwamish (steelhead) were captured as adults in the Columbia. Should the Columbia be managed for Duwamish ESA needs.

Stock distributions are way more complex in time and space than out desire to fish the ocean will allow.

Top
#988024 - 04/15/18 08:27 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
Geoduck Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 437
If this is about CR chinook, then we have a real problem as your prioritizing a non-selective B10 fishery over a selective WB fishery.


The fact that it was ramroded through without consideration and in contravention of the WB policy is a real problem.

Let's talk about the impacts for a sec. If one assumes that we average 500 fish in WB in that zone ( I suspect less)and half of them are wild and we apply standard mortality. We're talking about 38 fish. That's about what 4 hours worth of wild fish harvest at B10.

this is dumb.
_________________________
Dig Deep!

Top
#988025 - 04/15/18 08:50 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: eyeFISH]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
I don't like this at all. I will have to fish the ocean, currently scheduled to be open through the third week of August, to avoid the grass on the ebb tide.

One more thing. Who will sample the area in question for species and stock composition once the area is closed. Will they use a cph with three to four ounces of weight like my Uncle who plans to fly here from Kansas?
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

Top
#988026 - 04/15/18 10:10 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: Geoduck]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: Geoduck
If this is about CR chinook, then we have a real problem as your prioritizing a non-selective B10 fishery over a selective WB fishery.


The fact that it was ramroded through without consideration and in contravention of the WB policy is a real problem.

Let's talk about the impacts for a sec. If one assumes that we average 500 fish in WB in that zone ( I suspect less)and half of them are wild and we apply standard mortality. We're talking about 38 fish. That's about what 4 hours worth of wild fish harvest at B10.

this is dumb.


Politics. More fish for Buoy 10 appeals to both the commercial and sport sectors, whereas more opportunity around Washaway only benefits a sub-section of the sport contingent. WDFW's mandate is to maximize sport AND commercial opportunity. My jaded opinion is that they do a far better job of making sure the commercial sector gets concessions than sport, but in theory, they set out to achieve maximum, mutual harvest benefit for both stakeholders. That leads to decisions that benefit the largest (or, more realistically, the most politically influential) user groups more often than not. No exception in this case.

Top
#988027 - 04/15/18 10:17 AM Re: NEW Willapa Bay Control Zone [Re: slabhunter]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: slabhunter
I don't like this at all. I will have to fish the ocean, currently scheduled to be open through the third week of August, to avoid the grass on the ebb tide.

One more thing. Who will sample the area in question for species and stock composition once the area is closed. Will they use a cph with three to four ounces of weight like my Uncle who plans to fly here from Kansas?


Your question is a good one. My guess is that, whether it's gillnet or experimental alternative, the gear of choice will be intended for commercial purposes. I sense an "emergency opener" coming the WBGA's way this summer/fall (unless one of the actual run sizes come in below forecast, that is).

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
Carcassman, Clipfin, Danny Clyde, Dannyboy, dk1948, Twitch
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
1 registered (1 invisible), 948 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 28170
Dan S. 17149
Sol Duc 16138
The Moderator 14486
Salmo g. 13523
eyeFISH 12767
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9160
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63778 Topics
645361 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |