Does anyone get the Treaty Fish Regs from WDFW in email? Did anyone notice that most of the regs for crab openers state that crabbing is opne from June 30th, 2018 to March or April 30th, 2019??? What does that mean? That the tribes can crab all summer long?

I get them.

The tribes set their own seasons and bag limits. A lot of the fisheries you describe are going to be subsistence/ceremonial fisheries. The commercial openers are usually more restricted.

Actually the "quote" is divided between tribal and state and is agreed to by the co-managers. The tribes generally harvest their portion over the period of just a few days, whereas we recs take ours over the course of 3 months, plus winter opportunity. A lot of the tribes forgo winter crabbing cause they know it sucks and choose to harvest their total available quota in the summer.

The tribal commercial take is generally over fairly quickly. The tribal subsistence fishery is much longer.

I just don't remember seeing it posted like that is past years. It would be open for 7 days or so and then if they didn't get their quota it would open again for a few days. But not all summer and all winter long.

Have to actually read the whole reg. The Tribes, like the State, will issue separate regulations for commercial, ceremonial, and subsistence. Some of the "fine" rules will vary among the fisheries. There are the same type of regs for fin fish and shellfish.

What does the notice mean on the bottom of the page under "Justification: This regulation is a Shellfish Plan Paragraph 4.6 notice to proceed with a harvest in the absence of a co-manager agreement for the 2018-2019 Region 1 Dungeness Crab Harvest Management Plan......"

So they have a NOF agreement with the state for salmon but not for crab????

NOF is salmon, crab agreements are a separate process. Probably the same transparency as NOF. It does seem, though, that while NOF requires some sort of agreement to proceed crab fisheries don't require agreement.

Seems a bit odd that the State would allow and not challenge a supposedly shared fishery that was conducted without agreements.

There is a reason that the Nisqually tribe doesn't report crab catch numbers to the state, they don't consider the state as co-managers. I have had this point of view expressed by more then one tribal fisher and Billy Frank is rolling over in his grave at the direction this has taken. Many times has he said that the only way the salmon would survive AND thrive would be for co-manager co-operation. Accountability in tribal court for crab and salmon would be a big step in the right direction. Bob r

Co-management takes two (therefore the co-). The State could take action. Their inaction would appear to support the Tribe's claim.

Been comm pots in A-10 for a quite some time now. They were still there last night.....assume they will go out Friday, day before rec opener.

I do wish the tribal take would all happen in a couple days in March/Apr/May. I don't know about the molting calendar and all that, but what I do know is when they harvest in June, a majority of the crab I pull in July have to go back since they measure just under 6 1/4". Maybe if they harvested earlier, one more molting cycles might help get them to 6 1/4"...not that I like keeping that size, but you get the point.

Tribal co-managers have harvested 5.1 tons more crab PER YEAR than the state share...PER YEAR for the last 17 years ( from WDFW data) in Crab Region 4, which is roughly the same as marine Area 10.

Good luck tomorrow for those that get out.
I hope it is better then last year. I've been seeing more mated up crabs this spring then last year, but still nothing like 2016.
SF

Judging by the amount of tribal pressure in Port Susan lately, the only place that'll have any crab now is the Tulalip casino.

1 keeper for four pots, 2 hour soak this AM. A-10. Pretty bleak.

Four keepers between my buddy and I.
Not great, but not too bad for doing the eel grass shuffle.
SF

Insane pressure out of Everett. By 8 PM 350 boats that had not fished (crabbers?) had returned to the ramp!

2 crab yesterday. A ton of females.

Moved pots and let soak overnight. 20 keepers for 6 pots. Small crab overall.

South end of 8-2 slow on Saturday with 5 keepers for two of us followed on Sunday with 8 on full six hour incoming tide soaks. Very much hit and miss even within the same general locale and not anywhere near as many rec crabbers out as in past years. Maybe last year's scarcity had them trying new crabbing areas. Anyway, it was a bit slower than last year's opener and I suspect it will drop off quickly in both production and, correspondingly, crabbing activity.

And remember, no crabbing on the 4th of July (a Wednesday).

My opener report out of area 10 Kingston. 6 pots 2 days with an overnight soak. 18 keepers which sounds good but our history here is usually sorting the biggest and throwing keepers over because of full daily limits. Most this year just barely legal, not many big boys. Has me a little worried because not as many smallies and females in the catch. Hope the problems South aren't moving North. Wonder how the tribes have done, or how to find out?

18 dungies? or is that counting the red rocks? We had 3 people aboard, 6 pots, only got 4 keeper dungies in THREE days.. We let go about 30++ red rocks. Only seen about a dozen female dungies.

Like previous years, the refrigerated trailers at the Everett Boat ramp filled up with crab by tribal members occurs directly right in front of the recreational crab opener.

Exactly the same thing happens with shrimp each year also.

These sport fisheries get left overs in both fisheries and a trade off of every other year of first pick should be examined and negotiated.

Interesting yo should mention first start. Back when, the NI commercial fleet altered first start between gill net and purse seine. At the time, seines fished days and gillies (generally) nights. So, the fisheries either opened Sunday nights with gillies or Monday mornings with seines. Switched weekly.

The problem between I and NI is that you are fishing to an agreed-to number. (at least in the fantasy world of perfect management). So, it doesn't matter who goes first so long as you get your number.

Also, the number is by group. So, if 10,000 crabbers get one each and 10 Tribal crabbers each get 1,000 then it's all balanced.

The above, as I'm sure Larry and those up to date on catches know, is as much a fantasy as a competent, caring politician.

Well, there was Abe Lincoln.....which puts "a competent, caring politician" one up.

And even if the numbers were reasonably accurate the fact that tribal crabbers remove half of the harvestable "paper crab" before recreational crabbers have an opportunity has at least two adverse impacts to the State's fishery.

The "first at the table" tribal effort reduces the harvestable biomass thereby significantly reducing the following recreational success per effort rapidly reaching the point where rec crabbers simply stop crabbing. That happened to me early August when I was pulling one keeper for two pots; simply not worth the effort. Done.

And since some of the negotiations over harvestable numbers are based upon biomass data developed by the tribes one doesn't have to be much of a cynic to recognize the potential conflict of interest. Simple example: If tribal data supports a harvestable number (paper crab) of 1,000,000 pounds in an area then the 50/50 split means tribes and State each have 500,000 to harvest from that area. The tribes then go out and take their 500,000 pounds leaving that diluted but still harvestable biomass of 500,000 pounds of paper crab for the State fishers. But if the original 1,000,000 of paper crab was really only 800,000 pounds of real crab and the tribes get first opportunity and remove their agreed upon 500,000 then what is left for the State is 300,000 pounds.

A simple real world example of potential conflict of interest and resolution is kids dividing a treat.......one does the cutting and the other gets first choice.

Yes Dungies. Keep in mind we have done much better, and I worry of the downward trend. We kept a bunch of the biggest rocks also, which were plentiful. On that note, lots of the rocks had one pincher gone but looked healed? Wonder if the tribes break them off for themselves? They are good eating. There are better spots than others and networking w/ others helps on the water to get dialed in. We have one hole that always seems to produce the best, and I'm talking small spot. Always seems to bail us out on the overnight soak. Not sure why but around the spot is slim pickings, and thanks to the GPS, gets us right on it. The worry I have was the lack of females and smallies. I experienced the South decline over the last couple of years and it seems to be trending in that direction. As far as tribes getting on the water first, I don't have a problem other than the time they get. Give them a few days or a week only. Not a month for cripes sake. Maybe alternate times, 1 week ahead for them, then 1 week for recs, alternating weeks the front end of the season. Good Luck!

Another aspect of the reduced productivity for rec crabbers and resulting reduced activity and harvest is in management areas having NI commercial crabbing. Think especially MA 8-1, 8-2 and 9.

When the new policy was being developed the WDFW crab bios expressed concern that the plan as written (and subsequently passed) would have the entire State share in MA 9 (2W) harvested by recs during the summer season leaving none for a rec winter season. They also expressed concern that in 8-1 and 8-2 (2E) that the amount left over (State share less summer rec actual and winter projected) would leave such a small amount for NI crabbers that they would harvest it all in the first couple of weeks and WDFW would not be able obtain and calculate a running total in time to shut down the NI commercials before exceeding the State's share.

Neither of those scenarios have come close to occurring. Despite the Commission supposedly prioritizing rec opportunity in those areas the NI commercials have had extended opportunity running from 1 Oct to February grinding out the remaining portion of the State's share. I have been told much of that harvest has been on crab which have molted after the summer rec season and would be available the following summer season (or at least what the tribes don't harvest). This works in large part due to the prices paid for crab. I was shocked to see crab for sale in Fred Meyer last Thursday at $14.99/#. And then there is the live crab market in Asia - air freight costs be damned.

It was and is clear to me that there is no need to obtain summer CRC data for 8-1, 8-2 and 9 to be sure that there is adequate poundage available before opening a winter rec season. Consequently, I did submit a rule change proposal to begin the winter season in those MAs on the day after Labor Day. Let's just say that the then Shellfish Manager poured cold water on that idea sending it to the "do not consider" pile.

Now, if we are truly in a down cycle (quite apparent) how will WDFW address that reality in terms of having both rec and NI commercial harvest in those areas?

" This works in large part due to the prices paid for crab. I was shocked to see crab for sale in Fred Meyer last Thursday at $14.99/#. And then there is the live crab market in Asia - air freight costs be damned.

This quote from LB above will be the demise of PS crab. I remember for years PS crabbing was closed because the NI commercials raped it empty. It did come back, but it is a shame to have history repeat itself again! PS should be left to the recs and tribal. And only for personal use, not for sale to the highest bidders!

Paper numbers always benefit the first in line. If the Tribe's continue to insist on going first then WDFW should push for equitable adjustment. In that case, catches at the end of the season must balance, unless one side still had harvestable but chose not to fish.

To the managers it doesn't really matter what CPUE is, just catch. If you or I won't go when the likelihood is catching only 1 or 2 but those are harvestable it becomes "our" choice. While you may not crab for 1 or 2, somebody else might. We have cumulative shares, and all WDFW cares about is what the final total is.

Obviously, though, with the apparent demise of crab in some areas there needs to be much better numbers and a significant improvement in the understanding of crab biology and population dynamics.

I find it greatly disappointing that, after (what) 90 years of managing crab we still have such bad numbers to manage with.

With a yield of 25% that $14.99/# for whole crab works out to $60/# for crab meat and you get to crack the crab. What a deal!!

If both sides are allowed 50% of the harvestable crab and the tribe takes their's first, I think there is a good chance the rec side could not ever get their fair share, even if they are there. Being smart, the tribal guys know where the large numbers of harvestable crabs are. They blanket it with pots and take a very high percentage. That leaves us with our 2 pots per person to try to find the rest. There is a reason they may be left. Likely they are really spread out or in deeper or harder areas to fish. They are probably less hungry because there are fewer.

Even if the recs do get their 50%, there are other factors that come into play against them. I think that what also happens is that people who are out every day or live on the water leave their pots out longer and are able to squeeze out a higher percentage, taking one or two every few days, while the rest of the fleet can not afford to make that type of effort. My participation would be a lot different if I could row out, drop a pot and come back a few days later and pull it up, as compared to dropping a pot and pulling it back up empty later that day, paying a launch fee, travel time, etc. Or, if we went first and the crabs were concentrated, we could drop in our pots and possibly get a limit. Sure the season may be short, but the number of successful people may go up real fast. I think the State likes to hide behind the season rather than the results. It benefits those who are most adamant about the sport, those who live on the water or are out every day. Those of us who may go out for one or two days a year give up, but are not invested enough to complain hard.

A lot of good points in this thread. I'd just like to offer a few thoughts/clarifications.

1. Under the current tribes go first system, the tribes are incentivized to throw out glass half full season estimates, and the state would be similarly benefited by offering glass half empty estimates, but in practice, I am told that both sides are now, literally, on the same boats and sharing the same data from test fisheries in most marine areas. I don't think that there is much nonsense in the test fishery results or estimates anymore, and the fact that the tribes go first probably helps them play it straight with the estimates.

2. Legally, the tribes really don't have to offer much cooperation at all with crab management if they don't want to.

3. If you think it's rough following the tribes' take, imagine being a non-tribal crabber and having to also follow the recs' summer season. It's amazing there are any crab left, but as Larry B notes, there have been. Recs are 2nd. That's better than 3rd.

4. Overlapping with commercial crabbers (whether tribal or non) sucks. They lay huge lines of pots in the best areas, tend them actively, and generally just don't play nice on the water. At present, the recs have an open season, without competition, in most marine areas during the best/nicest part of the year. Sure, that's only a benefit if there are crab but...

5. The State is still doing pretty well when it's all said and done and the State take and Tribal take are compared. MA-10 was a disappointment, and a surprise, last year and there was an imbalance in take, but no one should think that WDFW ignores that. They don't. (Nor do the tribes when it cuts the other way.) And horse-trading for things like extra days, or demands for use of the most conservative estimates, makes rough justice of that from one season to the next.

So, yeah, South Sound crab is presently totally abysmal, and MA-10 is headed in the wrong direction, but it's not clear that WDFW policies are responsible for the reduction in harvestable crab, and it's certainly not the case that they ignore what's happening. It's their job to pay attention to it, and the guys in the Shellfish Group do. As I've said before, should you doubt me on this, give them a call and have a pleasant conversation. They answer the phone.

I would be okay with just a winter season for now, on the lower MA12.

Very few keeper size, hard shell but not filled out.

Last year was the first year I have ever experienced this in MA's 8-1 or 8-2. I thought they always wrapped (mopped?) things up prior to our ~July 1 opener.

The launch (Camano Island) was a total mess with recs attempting to launch and the tribal guys taking out and loading flat bed trailers with their 200 pots.

Unbeknownst to us we put our 4 pots in a string parallel to about 20 tribal pots (they were using a ground line with only the first and last pots having visible buoys). I wasn't looking forward to our first pull but we did surprisingly well...put some distance between us and them for our second set, and ended up culling 2 for our 20 crab limit.

Tip:
There were hundreds of big dead squid washing up on the beach, presumably tossed over by the tribal crabbers. We scooped up a bunch, stuffed our bait containers, and did really well with them.

Ike

Like I said above, I was able to watch them in action from a very close distance just last year and this is what they did to the rock crab:
Busted them in half over the rail or a cleat and threw them overboard. I'm not a pot stirrer or tribal basher; just telling you what I saw.

Ike

A few comments below:

Area 8-2 report from a buddy today. 2 pots, 4hr soak, 3 keeper dungies. Not that great BUT! The good news is that lots of females and sub legals released. That is a positive from what I have seen and heard so far. I won't be out again until area 7 opens in a week.

Area 10 opening weekend got 8 keepers and last weekend 4 keepers. Lots of females last weekend. Time to put away the pots and try again in a couple of weeks.

Just back from area 7. Hot weather and hot crabbing. Limits 3 days in a row. No population problems there. Lots of juveniles, females and keepers. Good to see.

Some others in area 7 didn't do as well. 24 hour soak on 4 pots.....3 crab. Another had 12 hour soak on 6 pots and only got 4. Lots of red rock crab. Of course tribes crabbed the area for 24 hours on July 10 so must of cleaned out the area I was crabbing.

This weekend report MA 10. Someone took 2 of our pots on Friday, Have the boat on video that stole them. Showed the video to a few people, cant read ALL the boat numbers, BUT can see enough to turn there day around from good to bad. Even with low dungie numbers, its just sad that a brother /fisherman would steal from another just for a pot. My address and Phone is on the buoys. Hopefully you will do the right thing. Otherwise I will ,,, do the Right thing. Thanks

We did lose one pot and verified had at another checked by someone other than us. The perils of not tending and overnight soaks. The lost pot I attributed to the tide w/ kelp. Lots of crap in the water with the big tides. I saw least 2 bouy's/pots floating out in the middle of nowhere surrounded in kelp and eel grass. In one area even though our pots were weighted they moved. I put indicators on the main openings to verify if someone got into them. The other pot that was checked, they stole my bait container and the pot was empty. Why do people have to do that sht?

Got three keepers on Saturday walking around some eel grass flats.
Should of had a few more. The big boys head fast to deep water when they see you coming. Lots of females. This was in MA 9.
SF

That's a fun way to catch crab! Did a lot of that as a kid.

SHOCKING news ... Pulled in the driveway tonite, iam like wtf ? my lost/ stolen/ borrowed pots are in my driveway, all washed and ropes rolled nicely. No card,letter, no phone # nothing. Unreal. Never expected this.

That's awesome!

Fish on...

Todd

Dropped pots last Thursday and did a 7 hours soak and had 18 keepers in the first three pots. Re baited and didn't bother to pull the other three. Next morning pulled all six pots for another 18 keepers. Two of the pots had blanks. Pulled them again the next morning and only has two keeepers as the red rocks had taken over. Tuna seemed to be the key as we had run out of it for the final re-baiting.

Not sure if this is an issue or not, but I stopped by a small grocery yesterday and they had packages of Rock Crab clusters for sale for around $6.50 a pound. I am not sure where they came from other than the package said they were from Washington. For the looks of it, about half the clusters were very small and I have a hard time believing they came from legal 5" crabs. One had a pincer that was smaller much smaller than my thumb. It could be a regrowth but the rest of the legs looked really small too. Not sure if it worth doing anything of not.

Very cool on the returned pots!! If whoever did it is reading this thanks and may the goodwill be returned to you 7-fold!!

I got blanked with 6 pots last weekend - no smalls, no females, total blanks!! First time in 40 years of crabbing in the sound that has ever happened. At first I thought someone had cleaned me out but by the time they reset 6 pots and got out of there before I approached would have been enough time for at least something to crawl back in there at the honey hole I was crabbing. Then I thought tribes found my hole and cleaned it out but that doesn't explain no smalls or females. Gave up in frustration and started unloading the bait bags tossing nice chunks of expired farmed steelhead Freddies gave me for bait. 2-3" chunks of flesh and skin should have been filet mignon to the gulls but they grabbed it, chomped it a couple times like they were positioning it for the big gulp and then spit it out. Could not believe the gulls wouldn't eat it! The heck if I ever will!

Rinsed off the gear and tossed in a couple left-over herring into each of 4 pots and scratched out a limit in about 40 minutes. At least I have my own bait from the salmon we caught for this weekend! Happy crabbing - sure is tasty!

Area 7, 4 pots, 4 day soak, 4 crab. And the tribes get an opener again today.

South end of 8-2: Four pots Thursday and six keepers. Friday: 1. Saturday: 0.

So, for 3 days and four pots over six hour incoming tide soaks we ended up with 6 crab and it is still July.

Go to the middle of 8.2

That would be a long row!

Seriously, thanks. I've heard it's better a bit further north. Maybe when salmon opens I'll launch the big boat.

Worst season I've had in 8-2 in the 40+ yrs I've been crabbing here. Never had to work so hard to scratch out a limit.

Crabbing in the Everett vicinity has sucked. I stopped setting pots locally after the first weekend. I've done better up north of Langley in Holmes harbor and right next to the Muk ferry on the Everett side.

And if I am giving away your crabbing spot... Hey, you can post this info here since no one reads pp anymore. It's like 1999 all over again

Last weekend I was anchored up in Penn cove and the crab were huge and plentiful out by the green can on the Coupeville side of that shelf.

My buddy in Langley said it has dropped off significantly since the opener. By the way, I was contacted by WDFW about a pot I lost In MA 7 opening weekend. I thought someone stole it, but it must have got drug by kelp or something in the big tides. Picked it up yesterday. Nice to see enforcement activity on closed days.