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#996942 - 11/15/18 05:23 PM Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1385
http://www.knkx.org/post/orca-task-force...ble-dam-removal

Didn't read the details but didn't see much about quick increases in hatchery production? Saw lots about habitat. That takes time. Was hoping for a quick shot in PS arm for a bunch more fish to catch. Final report tomorrow.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#996957 - 11/16/18 06:57 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It's just breathtakingly stunning that the biggest identified is food TODAY and the proffered solutions may bring more food in a decade. Extinction is not an option, but may be the preferred alternative.

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#996958 - 11/16/18 07:41 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1270
Loc: WaRshington
2 things. 1 the only way augmented hatchery production will work is if hatcheries are able to meet their egg take needs for their current program AS WELL AS meet the additional needs to produce more fish. This is unfortunately not always the case. Many hatcheries are already barely making take for certain programs, and this will certainly limit augmentation into the future. 2nd thing, pumping out more hatchery fish DOES NOT correlate directly to more fishing opportunity. Our mixed stock fisheries are dependent upon wild encounters NOT the number of hatchery surplus available to harvest. Because of this our quotas and time on the water in mixed stock areas will still be limited to the SAME amount we have now based on what our allowable wild impacts are. We MIGHT see more opportunity in terminal areas with an increase in hatchery production, but that is a big MIGHT. We have to get agreement on the other side of the aisle any time we want to open new or expanded fisheries, and of late it seems like we have not been able to meet agreeable terms, speaking generally.
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#996962 - 11/16/18 09:18 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: GodLovesUgly]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1385
Originally Posted By: GodLovesUgly
2 things. 1 the only way augmented hatchery production will work is if hatcheries are able to meet their egg take needs for their current program AS WELL AS meet the additional needs to produce more fish. This is unfortunately not always the case. Many hatcheries are already barely making take for certain programs, and this will certainly limit augmentation into the future. 2nd thing, pumping out more hatchery fish DOES NOT correlate directly to more fishing opportunity. Our mixed stock fisheries are dependent upon wild encounters NOT the number of hatchery surplus available to harvest. Because of this our quotas and time on the water in mixed stock areas will still be limited to the SAME amount we have now based on what our allowable wild impacts are. We MIGHT see more opportunity in terminal areas with an increase in hatchery production, but that is a big MIGHT. We have to get agreement on the other side of the aisle any time we want to open new or expanded fisheries, and of late it seems like we have not been able to meet agreeable terms, speaking generally.


I don't know very much about egg take goals these days and how often or not they are met. I do know those goals are far lower than they used to be, due to hatchery affects on wild fish, and any surplus eggs are destroyed over the achieved goals. Also hatchery facility funding and production capacities have been substantially cut over the years. My take is if food is needed now for these Orcus to survive they will come from the resident blackmouth programs that currently exist for the sole purpose recreational/tribal harvest. These programs have also been cut over the years. Open winter seasons have been consistent and if more fish are produced, I can see increased success per rod hr. time regardless of wild encounters. I am disappointed that this draft report fails to emphasize quick production NOW! IMO it will do little to help the current Orca population decline.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#996963 - 11/16/18 09:28 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
The Governor's Task Force on SRKWs would be far better off to watch and listen to the link provided in Eyefish's thread titled, "SRKW . . . the truth." Whale watching bans and removing the lower Snake River dams and increasing hatchery Chinook production won't do diddly squat for SRKWs unless they increase the supply of Chinook during the time and the place where they are presently limiting for the SRs.

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#996965 - 11/16/18 09:50 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
GodLovesUgly -


For the major PS fall Chinook hatcheries 18,000 to 20,000 adults are needed for brood stock. In 2017 there was over an aggregate of 100,000 surplus above brood stock needs and in 2018 over 60,000. Yes not all that surplus isn't uniform across the hatcheries but clearly there are surpluses to work with.

I agree that planting additional hatchery fish does not assure more recreational fishing; especially in marine mixed stock areas. It also does not assure that there desired prey for the orcas.



Curt

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#997018 - 11/16/18 03:10 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: Salmo g.]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1385
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
The Governor's Task Force on SRKWs would be far better off to watch and listen to the link provided in Eyefish's thread titled, "SRKW . . . the truth." Whale watching bans and removing the lower Snake River dams and increasing hatchery Chinook production won't do diddly squat for SRKWs unless they increase the supply of Chinook during the time and the place where they are presently limiting for the SRs.


True! But I will jump on any band wagon and support any task force to produce more fish to catch.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#997036 - 11/16/18 04:51 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If I were in charge and if the intent of increasing the Chinook production was to feed SRKW then the only fishing on Chinook would be after they pass by the whales as adults. Inner Bay and River.

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#997041 - 11/16/18 05:44 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2432
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Fair point Carcassman!
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"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#997042 - 11/16/18 06:27 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
With that thought in mind lets not forget the recent scientific study which concluded that pinnipeds take 7 times what all fishermen harvest and twice what Orca consume.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#997059 - 11/16/18 07:20 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: Larry B]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1385
Originally Posted By: Larry B
With that thought in mind lets not forget the recent scientific study which concluded that pinnipeds take 7 times what all fishermen harvest and twice what Orca consume.


Exactly why I am scratching my head that this report mentions nothing about predation mitigation.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#997064 - 11/16/18 08:25 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
They’re going to initiate more studies on the issue of pinniped predation. Limited culling at choke points or when smolts are out-migrating would remove identifiable pinniped. Unfortunately, when the MMPA was passed, there were no provisions for what could be done when the populations were recovered. We didn’t have endangered Chinook in the 1970s nor starving orcas.

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#997067 - 11/16/18 09:54 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: bushbear
They’re going to initiate more studies on the issue of pinniped predation. Limited culling at choke points or when smolts are out-migrating would remove identifiable pinniped. Unfortunately, when the MMPA was passed, there were no provisions for what could be done when the populations were recovered. We didn’t have endangered Chinook in the 1970s nor starving orcas.


Nor ESA listed rockfish in Puget Sound also targeted by pinnipeds.

The problem is that we really don't need more studies. What we need is for NOAA/NMFS and our Congressional delegation to press for changes to the MMPA which would provide wide-ranging latitude for managers and preclude the need to go to Congress over localized issues - especially when recovery of ESA listed species is at play.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#997070 - 11/16/18 10:11 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
That would be nice, but they'll have to study the issue first.....

The bill currently in Congress is specific to the Columbia River issue. Looks like ODFW can begin to remove pinnipeds at Willamette Falls.

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#997074 - 11/16/18 10:55 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Haven't they been studying the impact of pinnipeds on salmonids since Herschel and his relatives decimated Lake Washington wild steelhead at the Chittendon Locks starting in 1981?

History repeating itself???
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#997076 - 11/17/18 06:59 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
If hatchery production is increased, you ought not assume sport fishers, while we may enjoy slightly more productive angling due to higher numbers of fish being present, will be allocated any additional catch. Lest we forget, this is the Orca Task Force making recommendations; not the Puget Sound Sport Fishing Task Force.


Edited by FleaFlickr02 (11/17/18 06:59 AM)

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#997084 - 11/17/18 05:44 PM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: RUNnGUN]
Driftin' Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Offshore
Seems that given the pinniped take far outweighing the biomass of the sporties, commercials and SRKW's combined, any additional chinook production will most likely end up as sea lion schit. Seems like the logical solution is to manage the burgeoning pinniped population rather than given them a free pass under the MMPA....

Link 1

Link 2

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#998697 - 12/14/18 06:12 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Jake Dogfish Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/24/00
Posts: 554
Loc: Des Moines
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
If hatchery production is increased, you ought not assume sport fishers, while we may enjoy slightly more productive angling due to higher numbers of fish being present, will be allocated any additional catch. Lest we forget, this is the Orca Task Force making recommendations; not the Puget Sound Sport Fishing Task Force.


This the point that the “plant fish stupid” crowd never gets. For the most part our ability to fish is limited by impacts to wild fish. Anything that is bad for wild fish is bad for fishermen. It does not matter how many fish they plant if we don’t have fishing opportunity.

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#998700 - 12/14/18 06:58 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: Jake Dogfish]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1385
Originally Posted By: Jake Dogfish
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
If hatchery production is increased, you ought not assume sport fishers, while we may enjoy slightly more productive angling due to higher numbers of fish being present, will be allocated any additional catch. Lest we forget, this is the Orca Task Force making recommendations; not the Puget Sound Sport Fishing Task Force.


This the point that the “plant fish stupid” crowd never gets. For the most part our ability to fish is limited by impacts to wild fish. Anything that is bad for wild fish is bad for fishermen. It does not matter how many fish they plant if we don’t have fishing opportunity.


"Productive angling" is a positive in my mind. After all what is the objective when you go fishing? Action! If I can do it in an hr vs 4, I'm in!
Agreed. We will need "opportunity". I am an optimist. If more fish are present and orca recovery works. I think opportunity will follow.
Latest news:
https://medium.com/wagovernor/inslees-budget-takes-big-steps-to-save-orcas-and-salmon-14d95ff00305
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

Top
#998702 - 12/14/18 07:09 AM Re: Draft Orca Report for Increased Chinook Production [Re: Jake Dogfish]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Jake Dogfish
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
If hatchery production is increased, you ought not assume sport fishers, while we may enjoy slightly more productive angling due to higher numbers of fish being present, will be allocated any additional catch. Lest we forget, this is the Orca Task Force making recommendations; not the Puget Sound Sport Fishing Task Force.


This the point that the “plant fish stupid” crowd never gets. For the most part our ability to fish is limited by impacts to wild fish. Anything that is bad for wild fish is bad for fishermen. It does not matter how many fish they plant if we don’t have fishing opportunity.


Simple ol' me perceives a win-win opportunity; if the predation in Puget Sound by seals and sea lions is reduced - particularly on smolts - the improved survival will be spread across both wild and hatchery fish. More returning wild fish yields better for us impact numbers which have been the constraining factor in marked selective fisheries.

But, yes, just dumping more smolts into the water will primarily feed seals and sea lions.

Barry Thom - you need to step to the plate on the MMPA.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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