#998962 - 12/18/18 08:03 AM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: TanTastic84]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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Carcassman, I agree to a point. I understand about "lack of funds". But, simple safety checks of equipment is a non cost.
If you're in a rush, you're still putting on your seat belt.
If you're facing a photo finish at the urinal, you're still pulling your fly down.
See what I mean? We all hate maintenance times but we all do it so our stuff works when we need it to. If the folk at Minter would have taken their safety steps and checked this essential equipment a month ago, I assure you this critical piece of equipment would have been repaired or replaced. In all fairness to the Minter Creek folks and WDFW in general I am going to wait until a report is made public before I come to conclusions about who did or did not do what should have been done and when.
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Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#998967 - 12/18/18 08:30 AM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: bushbear]
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The Tide changed
Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
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I agree Flea Flicker. Habitat doesnt suffer from power outages.
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You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"
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#998980 - 12/18/18 11:20 AM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: bushbear]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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No habitat suffers from floods, droughts, and development. A hatchery is significantly more efficient at converting a given amount of water to adult fish. If you want lots and lots of fish to kill, support hatcheries.
If you want lots of wild fish, support habitat. One or the other.
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#998982 - 12/18/18 11:37 AM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: Carcassman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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No habitat suffers from floods, droughts, and development. A hatchery is significantly more efficient at converting a given amount of water to adult fish. If you want lots and lots of fish to kill, support hatcheries.
If you want lots of wild fish, support habitat. One or the other. Where's that "like" button!! I will add that in today's environment we should also recognize that the fish our license dollars produce in our hatcheries also serve other purposes; some good and others not so good.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#998987 - 12/18/18 12:26 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: Larry B]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5078
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
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In all fairness to the Minter Creek folks and WDFW in general I am going to wait until a report is made public before I come to conclusions about who did or did not do what should have been done and when.
MMMMMM, you must live in a bubble world....there are numerous examples of where WDFW personnel have chosen not to make things public. PDR's, personal document requests. have taken away the ability of WDFW and other State Departments to hide from the public. I did the PDR bit on something I wanted information on, 6 - 7 months of thousands of documents from all over the State on questions that I wanted on the Chehalis and rivers that flowed into the Chehalis and a person that the department called a "reliable source"...….bottom line unless I wanted to get a lawyer and go to court, I might get the answers.....I chose not to do that BUT others have done the lawyer and court bit and WDFW have had to pay when they lost in court. WDFW is a State agency and as such needs to be more open to the general public....IMO Simple way to make hatchery personnel accountable.....Sheet of paper, taped to wall close to generator, date machine was checked and then name signed by person who did the checking.....would be easy to check on...…..might stop a loss of fish in the future????
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"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"
"I thought growing older, would take longer"
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#998998 - 12/18/18 01:15 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: DrifterWA]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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In all fairness to the Minter Creek folks and WDFW in general I am going to wait until a report is made public before I come to conclusions about who did or did not do what should have been done and when.
MMMMMM, you must live in a bubble world....there are numerous examples of where WDFW personnel have chosen not to make things public. PDR's, personal document requests. have taken away the ability of WDFW and other State Departments to hide from the public. I did the PDR bit on something I wanted information on, 6 - 7 months of thousands of documents from all over the State on questions that I wanted on the Chehalis and rivers that flowed into the Chehalis and a person that the department called a "reliable source"...….bottom line unless I wanted to get a lawyer and go to court, I might get the answers.....I chose not to do that BUT others have done the lawyer and court bit and WDFW have had to pay when they lost in court. WDFW is a State agency and as such needs to be more open to the general public....IMO Simple way to make hatchery personnel accountable.....Sheet of paper, taped to wall close to generator, date machine was checked and then name signed by person who did the checking.....would be easy to check on...…..might stop a loss of fish in the future???? Drifter, nothing there with which I disagree. They (WDFW) and their employees should be more open and accountable to the public. As to a check sheet to document when basic maintenance was accomplished and the generator run up is a great idea. In fact, they may have that in place; I simply don't know and am withholding criticism until more facts are presented. If WDFW doesn't come up with a timely report they will be reasonably subject to criticism just as they were with the lost/miscounted Cowlitz summer run steelhead a couple of years ago. First, that situation was kept below the horizon and once it became widely known there was a great deal of B.S. from the former regional director. I would like to believe they learned from that.....
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#999033 - 12/18/18 08:52 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: cohobankie]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 196
Loc: Stanwood WA
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Did I read this correct two generators failed?
Imagine if my hospital had two back up generators fail? We test the generators every month, we test our emergency defibrillators twice daily.
If they tested their generators regularly, had fresh gas, carbs drained after use, hell just fired them up once a week and ran them dry they wouldn't be in this situation would they.
Been following this thread since this little disaster unfolded and some of the posts really make me smile! Defer maintenance due to lack of funding? Come on.... Why install backup units in the first place? Accountability? Are you serious? IMHO heads should roll on this one! Having worked in the electrical industry for 35+ years and installing huge backup units in hospitals, high rise buildings and computer centers there were protocols for testing on some units on a weekly, bi-monthly or monthly basis! Record keeping was meticuloss and I'm wondering tonight what caused this catastrophic failure? Battery maintenance, low oil, faulty electronic monitoring units! Some of this gear is so sensitive it can see/sense a "hiccup" coming down the line in about 1/60th of a second! I thought it might have been old gear but watching KIRO at 5PM tonight at the hatchery it was a new unit probably not maintained properly! FYI the hatchery spokesman said the unit had been started and tested in October? Question: Early October or late October? 45-60 days without running this unit left me speechless! Can't wait for the "report" and curious as to what actions if any will be taken! SMH.......
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#999037 - 12/18/18 09:52 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: bushbear]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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It seems to me that in addition to "routine" testing (monthly, all 12) that any time wind is forecast at greater than x MPH (40?) the unit is started up and tested.
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#999041 - 12/18/18 10:38 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: Carcassman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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It seems to me that in addition to "routine" testing (monthly, all 12) that any time wind is forecast at greater than x MPH (40?) the unit is started up and tested. The first questions should be (1) whether WDFW has a standard testing protocol to include actions to be taken prior to a forthcoming storm and (2) whether the folks at Minter Creek were in compliance. At home when a hard freeze is predicted the hose bibs get covered. When a wind storm is predicted stuff that might blow around is put away or tied down and the vehicles are parked away from our trees. It is a matter of what a reasonable person would do. I sincerely hope that this turns out to have been an unavoidable event.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#999050 - 12/19/18 07:34 AM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: bushbear]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1388
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After all the bashing is complete, fact finding and fireing is done, changes made to operations etc. Looking ahead Can these fish be replaced or is this a total loss? Can some accumulation from other facilities make some of this up? I know little about Chinook transferring. Other WA facilities have surplus? Oregon? California? Alaska? Looks like the Orca $$$ will be there. Will any Chinook from anywhere work?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller. Don't let the old man in!
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#999054 - 12/19/18 07:56 AM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: RUNnGUN]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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After all the bashing is complete, fact finding and fireing is done, changes made to operations etc. Looking ahead Can these fish be replaced or is this a total loss? Can some accumulation from other facilities make some of this up? I know little about Chinook transferring. Other WA facilities have surplus? Oregon? California? Alaska? Looks like the Orca $$$ will be there. Will any Chinook from anywhere work? My understanding is that those fish being reared at Minter would have been transferred to the river basin of origin and held there for several weeks for imprinting prior to release. The HGMP currently constrains movement of fish from one river basin to another - that genetics thing. White River springers are also being reared in a tribal hatchery and there is some natural spawning going on for that run. I believe I heard that Staff was assessing whether there are excess eggs/fry at other facilities for the other two stocks. If so, they could possibly go to Minter Creek.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#999075 - 12/19/18 11:59 AM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: OLD FB]
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The Chosen One
Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 14489
Loc: Tuleville
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heads should roll on this one! Agreed. I was fortunate enough to be visited by a former WDFW Commissioner yesterday and I brought this to attention. Needless to say, he was floored and more importantly, pissed! He was already on his phone making some calls as he left my office. Too bad this retired Commissioner can't do much other than get the ear of a past governor. He agreed that heads should roll, starting with the one on the top, being the Director of WDFW. There really is NO valid excuse for this mishap.
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#999083 - 12/19/18 01:01 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: bushbear]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Hatcheries don't take "extra" eggs just because. Hatchery operations are so tightly regulated that there may be a few thousand, maybe a fews tens of, extra. Normally, this is to cover unexpected incubation mortality.
There are generally strict controls on where eggs and fish can be moved to based on fish health/pathogen concerns. Pretty much if the eggs are on surface water they can't be moved. As with all rules, they can be overridden.
I would lean towards the case that there aren't many eggs to move around.
If those eggs in The Great Lakes are on pathogen free water and if they can provide excellent and detailed pathogen history, then maybe they could be sent back. But, these fish would have been entirely resident, not migrating very far, and would probably bring some really weird genetics and behaviors back.
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#999101 - 12/19/18 05:20 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: bushbear]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1388
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Sometimes in times of need rules need to be broken
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller. Don't let the old man in!
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#999109 - 12/19/18 06:42 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: RUNnGUN]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 268
Loc: Tumwater
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This incident makes a good case for the building of the Deschutes Hatchery in the next biennium. The eggs that were lost were from Deschutes Chinook which produces a good survival and contribution rate. They feed Orcas from Neah Bay as far south as the whales want to come, and they provide sport fishing and tribal fishing throughout. The South Sound management of our salmon has been a mess for years, but despite this, the Deschutes has had good returns for years. The City of Tumwater has given WDFW property at its Pioneer Park for the construction of a visitor friendly parklike setting, like all our hatcheries should be. Procrastination and stupidity by WDFW leadership has prevented the hatchery being built so far. Maybe this year? The Squaxin Island Tribe is all for building this project. We'll see what the governor's budget has to say about it.
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#999118 - 12/19/18 08:12 PM
Re: 6.2 million Chinook lost at Minter Creek
[Re: bushbear]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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This saga has been going on for decades. I was involved in design, water acquisition and such and that had to be before the turn of the century. Simply criminal that it has taken so long.
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