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#1058709 - 01/07/22 05:24 PM Rubber vs. bait
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
Why do c&r fisheries go no bait all rubber? If the goal was saving fish I think I would rather have a fish swallow bait than rubber. At the end of the season how many fish are dying from stomachs full of rubber worms?
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#1058710 - 01/07/22 11:42 PM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1194
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
I think I know the answer to that. Zero. Fish don't swallow rubber worms dude.
fb
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#1058711 - 01/08/22 05:11 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Bait - Any substance which attracts fish by scent or flavors, including any lure which uses scent or flavoring to attract fish.

Some worms are bait.
Only the unscented, unsalted ones are allowed for the c&r fisheries to keep the mortalities down. Fish don't hold them, spit them out faster.
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#1058712 - 01/08/22 07:49 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: fishbadger]
bobrr
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: fishbadger
I think I know the answer to that. Zero. Fish don't swallow rubber worms dude.
fb

Not true. We have caught LOTS of trout with their stomachs clogged with large pieces of plastic worms in lakes that bass fishermen throw into the water when they get chewed up and are trash.

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#1058713 - 01/08/22 08:08 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It is rather amazing what one can find in a trout stomach. Numberous cigarette filters, for example.

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#1058714 - 01/08/22 08:08 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Chum Man Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/07/99
Posts: 2691
Loc: Yelmish
i don't think that you'd see many soft plastics in the stomachs of anadromous salmonids, being that they aren't really in the rivers to feed.

oregon's janky laws allow for scent in baitless areas, but no soft plastics...

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#1058717 - 01/08/22 09:27 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: ]
riverdick Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 137
Loc: around the next bend

fb [/quote]
plastic worms in lakes that bass fishermen throw into the water when they get chewed up and are trash. [/quote]

What a jab And generalization towards a group of anglers that might fish differently than you!

You really think that's how all the soft plastic gets into the lake?

Just like in the river they can and will fall off the hook.

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#1058719 - 01/08/22 10:09 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: riverdick]
bobrr
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: riverdick

fb

plastic worms in lakes that bass fishermen throw into the water when they get chewed up and are trash. [/quote]

What a jab And generalization towards a group of anglers that might fish differently than you!

You really think that's how all the soft plastic gets into the lake?

Just like in the river they can and will fall off the hook. [/quote]

I never said all bass fishermen throw them in the water, some do, I've seen it and told them they were littering and contributing to trout downturn. They were not receptive to say the least. Maybe bass fishermen that care will educate and inform others, but not likely to happen. And I've bass fished so I guess I fall into that category you speak of. I just don't litter.

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#1058722 - 01/08/22 11:20 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
There was a picture in STS a few years ago of a summer run steelhead stomach with a full handful or 2 of soft plastics. Can’t say I agree with the single hook only option either. I admit trebles are not easy to untangle, a barbless treble helps with that. But I can’t stand it when a fish gets a single hook in the eye.
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#1058723 - 01/08/22 11:26 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
On The Swing Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 783
Be worried about people fishing scented rubber when they aren't supposed to.
I really doubt the mortality rate of fish eating soft plastics, cut open plenty that had baits in them. I believe there was a video here that showed one from the south ponds that had beads, worms and fake shrimp in it so....
I've never cut open a premortality and seen it, or been able to attribute it to that..


Edited by On The Swing (01/08/22 11:27 AM)
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#1058734 - 01/08/22 09:17 PM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Just an opinion from an old guy who has caught a lot of fish. On a tip from Ted McManus, an old friend: Cut one of the prongs off any treble hook you are using. So I tried it and it worked. In the small rivers on Admiralty, and Baranoff where I guided, I cut off one of the prongs on all the Blue Fox spinners that my clients were using for coho and dollies. It worked great, easy to remove, and judging by the twenty to forty fish per day that were hooked (mostly released - we had a strict lodge limit of two kept per day). No bait is allowed in SE Alaska streams, so all fish are caught on lures. Single hooks are fine, but replacing trebles with singles can be a pain. On some snaggy creeks my clients would lose two, three or sometimes four lures a day - times three or four clients, seven days a week. That's simple math and a lot of gear. In tidewater, it was a lot less problematic.

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#1058752 - 01/09/22 11:08 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: Salman
Why do c&r fisheries go no bait all rubber? If the goal was saving fish I think I would rather have a fish swallow bait than rubber. At the end of the season how many fish are dying from stomachs full of rubber worms?


If the goal is to save fish from fishing mortality, then the solution is to prohibit fishing. We don't manage fishing seasons as an act of altruism for the fish. We manage fishing in order to benefit ourselves and at the same time, conserve the fish so that a population doesn't get "fished out."

The reason for restricting gear and methods is to reduce angling efficiency. If we are too efficient, we very well may over-fish a run or population. Prohibiting natural baits, requiring artificial bait, lures, or flies are all restrictions intended to reduce encounter rates with fish, thereby conserving a higher proportion of the fish population.

Even with artificial lures and barbless hooks, managers know that some level of incidental mortality will occur. However, the total mortality is much lower than in a kill fishery, and CNR seasons have proven over time to be consistent with fishery conservation goals.

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#1058754 - 01/09/22 11:55 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I am not sure that restricting gear always reduces efficiency. Creek I fished as a kid, full of Browns, was rather impervious to bait fishing. Lures and flies, yeah that worked. But it has been shown over and over again that certain gears are significantly less destructive. As Salmo said, it's about limiting kill.

At its simplest, with a 5% mortality rate you can kill 100 fish straight away with a kill-only fishery or you can C&R 2,000 to kill that same 100. The question is what is the value of the fishery? We need to talk about that.

I was always hit with the "value" of the marine mixed stock fishery (sport or troll) was so high because so much money was spent to chase the fish in the ocean. Those same fish, in the bay or river, generated much less economic value per fish killed whether in a net or hook and line.

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#1058758 - 01/09/22 01:29 PM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
I have seen a number of trout stomachs over the years that had one or more pieces of soft plastics in their stomachs. In nearly every case those plastic grubs, worms, etc. were scented. As such under WDFW definition such "lures" would be considered to be bait and therefore not legal in any selective fishery where anglers are required to release fish.

From WDFW regulation definitions
"Bait. Any substance which attracts fish by scent or flavors,..."

Curt

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#1058760 - 01/09/22 02:45 PM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Originally Posted By: Salman
There was a picture in STS a few years ago of a summer run steelhead stomach with a full handful or 2 of soft plastics. Can’t say I agree with the single hook only option either. I admit trebles are not easy to untangle, a barbless treble helps with that. But I can’t stand it when a fish gets a single hook in the eye.


Off topic, but still a c&r issue. I used smaller hooks, teaching fishing as part of the aquatic education at my local schools.

single point barbless hooks minimize handling time.
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#1058761 - 01/09/22 02:47 PM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
I can’t see why WDFW cuts corners on some fisheries and not others. They find the need to restrict sporties gear to save fish while allowing nets to go out unaltered. Why don’t they have regulations saying every 10 ft of net needs to have a 5 ft diameter hole in it?
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Why build in the flood plain?

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#1058762 - 01/09/22 03:38 PM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Managers at At WDFW are birth control poster children. let every one see them for what they are.
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

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#1058765 - 01/09/22 03:51 PM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Huh?

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#1058768 - 01/09/22 04:00 PM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Bait restrictions do a lot more than result in less hooking mortalities...they also result in less encounters overall, and not because non-bait lures don't work as well, but because a lot of anglers think they can't catch fish without bait, so participation in the fishery is reduced.

As noted in a different thread..."fish" or "fishery" management is mostly about "fisherman management".

Fish on...

Todd
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#1058776 - 01/10/22 08:39 AM Re: Rubber vs. bait [Re: Salman]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
The problem is zero fish.

Blah blah blah.

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