CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP

Way back in 2002, boat launches at historic Point No Point were shut down. In addition to the fishing and boating opportunities the launch would offer, there is a need for emergency access there. For fishing Possession, Double Bluff, or Mutiny Bay, boats have to run 10-15 miles from Kingston (for me) in the open Sound, whereas the PNP launch would provide asses in 3-5 miles. Therefore, the PNP launch would provide better safety and economy/ecology too.
For many years, the WDFW has supported the launch, stating in 2004 that it was a top priority. Since then, there have been many hurdles, permitting issues and tribal objections, and ALL have been addressed by the WDFW. The CORPS OF ENGINEERS is the last signature needed. Yet, the permit has been sitting on their desk for years now, unsigned. I have asked for a legal reason why they cannot perform their job and duty to us, but they refuse to answer.
Last year, they had a closed door, internal meeting of their attorneys. I asked for access, but was denied. I believe the Corps is afraid of getting sued by the tribe, and they don't want that blemish on their record. After resolving tribal objections for 8-9 years now, the latest objection is “ The Tribe’s claim is based on a belief that the boat launch will cause additional fishing pressure within their usual and accustomed fishing grounds…, which in turn, will displace tribal fisheries and/or result in damage to their fishing gear… “. This is from a WDFW letter to the Corps, Dec 4, 2015. Keep in mind this objection was after the WDFW changed engineering plans, bought 515’ of shoreland to mitigate, removed 90 pilings for mitigation, all of which addressed pevious tribal objections. But their list has no end.
The tribe cannot identify how the launch would damage their gear. The last I heard, they said it was inherent if there is more boat traffic, their gear was at greater risk. I cannot understand that.
However, based on that claim, I think the CORPS decided, in their closed door meeting, they would rather not sign the permit, as it may result in a lengthy lawsuit, even though based on a claim without merit.

This will result in 2 things:
1. The tribes have learned that the CORPS will not sign permits if there is ANY tribal challenge, so the tribes will eventually use this precedent to control every boat launch, even on those outside the reservation boundaries. Look for your local launch to be shut down when a remodel or repair permit has to go through the Corps. This Corps behavior is a precedent will apply statewide.

2. The PNP launch will never happen. The CORPS will not do their job, even though WDFW director James Unsworth wrote, “The tribes have no legal authority to delay (the Corps) processing of the WDFW’s permit application, and WDFW asks the Corps to review the material in the record, determine that any unresolved tribal concerns are not factually or legally warranted, and grant WDFW’s permit.”
(This from the same letter.)

Costs: $400,000 tax money spent to buy neighboring land to mitigate to offset the “damage” the 25’ wide ramp will cause. Mitigation costs there (my est): $100k. $860k to buy the original launch site. $2.1 million to install the current parking, restroom, ADA requirements. Here’s the big one: Costs for CORPS,WDFW, NOAA, County, Tribal, legal and administrative costs over the last 15 years: PUT YOUR ESTIMATE HERE: $_____________.

So, my estimate of cost to date for the fancy parking lot we have, without a ramp, is $3.46 million + 15 years of admin expenses, NOAA reports and NMFS participation. The CORPS is blocking the ramp based on unsubstantiated claims, and the clock is still ticking on the 15 year bill for administrative and legal costs.

Lastly, from James Unsworth, “…we dispute the Tribe’s claim about fishing interference because that claim implies that the Tribe has exclusive rights to the surface waters in their U&A. WDFW believes the Tribe’s off-reservation treaty fishing rights must be exercised in common with all other state citizens. The public has the right to recreate and fish over the state’s navigable waters.”. That's right! It seems the tribe is blocking MY Boldt decision rights to my half of the fish, and they are doing that off the reservation in a public park.

SO CORPS, so Wdfw, WHAT ABOUT MY RIGHTS? I am not challenging the tribal right to fish, or the Boldt decision, or UA boundaries, or any of that. I am asking the CORPS: “What about my rights to fish? Why are you wasting tax dollars while costs rise exponentially to the taxpayer, as there is no legal basis to prevent the launch, and so, why isn’t the CORPS doing their job in their mandated jurisdiction?

After talking constructively with the Corps for the last 10 years, I call them about 2ce a year now, but they quit returning calls.

Be aware we are approaching the second decade of work on replacing this old, single lane ramp.. (Space Needle built in 400 days, New Tacoma Narrows Bridge, less than 5 years)

I'd welcome a response from them here on the forum.

Ned, we feel your utter frustration and anger. It goes beyond the Corp. Our own State is just as guilty. The unwillingness to engage the Tribes permeates this States Government. The good intentions of “The Centennial Accord” have been twisted to present the Tribes as some all powerful separate nation who is beyond the jurisdiction of any state law. The willingness of our department to drink the cool-aid that any meeting with the Tribes is “Government to Government” is a symptom of a greater cancer of appeasement. Couple that with the suspected tremendous and un-reported amount of money being pumped into the political coffers through lobbyists and campaign donations and you get a pretty good idea why our fisheries are in such a dismal state.

The USACE updated its Dept of the Army Regional General Permit RPG-6; Structures in Inland Marine Waters of Washington State effective 20 April 2017; link:

http://www.nws.usace.army.mil/Portals/27...85425-%20%20550

In that regulation one of the stipulations regarding issuance of a project permit is:

"10. Tribal Rights. No activity authorized by this RGP may impair reserved tribal rights, including, but not limited to, reserved water rights and treaty fishing and hunting rights."

On the one hand that language would seem to preclude issuance of a permit for a project which would impair reserved treaty rights at any level and without any latitude by either tribes or permit applicants. Or does it really mean that once a project permit is issued the subsequent project cannot impair said rights which would leave the approval process open to objection by tribal interests even if de minimis as with the PNP project.

So how is it that the Corps fails to take action on the PNP permit and continues to tell the parties to work out their differences? Are they saying that reserved treaty rights are really negotiable and can be waived by tribal interests if the permit applicant is willing to pay off the tribes? If so, the Corps is facilitating extortion. Want a permit? Pay up front for prospective damages even if there is no reasonable expectation of actual damage.

The ironic part is the tribes have actively blocked this launch for years, yet in negotiations, one of their terms is they want access. Gets right back into the catch is half theirs, but the other half is mine.

So why do tribes prevail? Why is my government actively suppressing my rights as a US Citizen, while supporting other objectives. Remember, WDFW has already challenged their (Corps and tribal) legal standing, but there has been no response.

Therefore, the Corps will just make laws to fit their objective. Seems the Tribes could not wish for a more supportive lobbyist team.

Meanwhile, those of you reading might extrapolate and apply this to your nearby community launch, because the Corps has decided the rules may apply to non-reservation waters as well.

Response from the Corps:
" WDFW is aware of the option to request a permit decision over tribal objections.

They are choosing to engage with the tribes in an effort to resolve the issues and are not asking for a permit decision at this time. Please direct your inquiries to them in the future as the ball is and has been in their court for some time.

Should WDFW reverse course and ask for a decision over tribal objections, I will let you know. "

Wow, I do not believe this is the WDFW position. I've emailed this web link and support material to Dir Unsworth, The Corps, and others involved. Let's see where this takes us.

I predict a lesson in politics is coming my way...

I think the lesson is who controls fishing in WA.

WDFW will probably tell you that the Tribes are a Sovereign Nation and this a “Government to Government” issue. They will add that WDFW cannot force the Tribes to agree and cannot proceed without the Tribes giving them permission.

This is how our WDFW handles conflict with the Tribes. Just ask all the guys that used to fish the skokomish river!

Baywolf and Carcass, You are spot on. I don't necessarily blame the Corps, WDFW, or anyone specific. I am just trying to push the pricess along. 17 years for a launch? I wish I had the luxury of wasting that much time and money. I had visions of launching at PNP to fish with my boys when they were in preschool and this all started. Still no ramp, and they are in college now.

Back to your point: I've found evidence of meetings or statements about the launch from stare representatives, congress, county commissioners, and other politicians. But when contacted and asked to implement their support, they have a convenient excuse. ie: The county Commissioner told me that was not his concern. The Rep says they are monitoring the situation....no action, one way or the other. No surprise to me, but just a sin and and demonstrates why a project as simple as this takes 17 years, with no end in sight.

Some quotes that keep my fire lit:

"This (ramp) is a major priority, because a lot of people depend on that launch," Sue Patnude former FW Regional Director, 2003.

Seattle Times, 2003: "State Fish and Wildlife estimates the cost of renovating the boat launch at $1.3 million to $1.5 million"
and
"Patnude hopes to put the boat launch back in operation within three to five years"

Larry Peck, Deputy Director of state Fish and Wildlife:, 2002 Seattle Times: "If the ramp can be built in a reasonable amount of time it could be done by the summer of 2003,"

Of course, I support WDFW and the CORPS in getting this project finished. Back to Baywolf's original point, the enthusiasm of the statements above show how ambition of the masses can be manipulated and spoiled. Applies to a lot of things these days....what a waste.

So, I pushed the Corps, and they responded by saying it was out of their hands, they were waiting on the WDFW. I figured I should post WDFW Director Unsworth's letter of 2015, where he asks for the permit in paragraph one and in the last paragraph.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/12/dec1115_08_usarce.pdf

Though not its intended use, folks have been launching small craft there since the parking lot was completed. At least it is getting some use rather then being a total waste.

If I remember correctly, the tribe wanted to basically have 24 hour access to the parking lot and use it as a processing area for their catches. Someone please correct me if that isn't correct.

That would be a total no go with the homeowners that live nearby and totally outside the intended use for the launch.

I think the ramp will get built eventually once the final tribal extortion price is met.
SF

This is a slippery slope for sure. Allowing tribal influence to dictate what the state public builds on non-tribal lands.... Unfortunately various tribes have used "impacts to their U&A's" successfully to thwart various projects Sound Wide in the past.

Collectively all the issues raised: Ramp, Skokomish, North of Falcon and more...when is enough, enough?

"As long as you continue to step back, they will continue to move forward"

As long as the Tribe's have the treat to shut down development in the state (Boldt II/Culvert Case) they will get whatever they want.

Your memory is fairly good but let me add some of my recollections.

The tribal interests also initially demanded a significant cash payment for the prospective adverse impact on their ability to exercise their Treaty rights. It was that cash payment to which WDFW balked in large part because the Tribal interests could not and did not provide any specificity to the Corps despite being directly asked for it and given an extended time line for submittal of any such additional information (have those Tribes even come close to not extracting their 50%?). That came out during the Commission meeting in Port Townsend.

When it came to mitigation (as if removing the old over the water facility with its pilings wasn't enough) the initial projects offered up by WDFW were deemed both inadequate and not sufficiently within the Suquamish U&A. WDFW then increase the overall mitigation package to include more within the Suquamish U&A.

As to use of the facility it is first important to recognize that its use is constrained by both the primary funding type (RCO) and the Kitsap County permit. The RCO funds come with constraints to commercial usage. WDFW has said that they allow launch and retrieval of commercial boats but do not allow sale and transfer of product at facilities developed with RCO monies. That runs counter to the tribal desire to be able to transfer product (primarily crab but probably also geoduc) to buyers with their refrigerated trucks on site.

The tribes also wanted to be able to utilize the facility 24 hours a day which is in conflict with the permit issued by Kitsap County after significant public input particularly by concerned residential neighbors during the public hearing process. One only needs to ask residents near the Salisbury launch about 24 hour tribal activity to include diesel trucks with refrigeration units running 24 hours/day as the neighbors try to sleep.

Edit: As a part of the 24 hour usage the tribes wanted to be able to park vehicles and boat trailers on what is a limited parking lot meaning limiting availability for recreational trailer boaters and other recreational users when the facility would be open to them.

Subsequent demands by the Tribes included a limitation on the size of recreational boats to be launched and also that any permit would have an expiration date meaning this whole fiasco would be revisited in future. Clearly more investment and actual recreational usage would give the Tribes more leverage to extort money for their approval (or for not objecting to re-issuance).

That is my old guy's recollection of events without going to my extensive pile of documents so if anyone has corrective or additional information please feel free to post.

I am somewhat disturbed by the kayak/small boat usage if that is actually occurring. Why? Well, that is exactly what Kitsap County wanted to reduce the site's usage to despite the fact that the planning/design/permitting had been for trailer boats AND it was RCO money generated by boaters purchase of fuel which was used to purchase the facility and design the redevelopment. Fortunately, push-back from the trailer boat stakeholders got it back on track.

So, is inaction by WDFW and the Corps leading to a significant change in the scope of usage for this facility without the benefit of any public hearing?

And, finally, I would be interested to know the administrative appeal process should WDFW push the Corps for a decision (issue the permit or deny with justification) and receive a denial.

Larry,

Thanks for the additional info.
I can only tell you what I've seen since the parking lot was completed.

It isn't much of an ordeal for people to carry kayaks and small cartoppers down to the water from the parking lot.
I've also seen rigs with empty trailers siting in the parking lot multiple times.

I've seen it happen a few times while fishing out there. I'm actually glad someone is using it rather then it sitting empty.
SF

I am just concerned that the cartopper/kayak usage will become the new reality by default. If that facility were to be totally closed to public usage there might be more public pressure on the Tribe(s).

Understand your concern.
Kind of a double edged sword....close it and nobody can use it or leave it open so people can use it but it gets finished based on its intended use and plans.
SF

Didn't you mean to write "doesn't get finished based on its original intended use and plans" and I would further opine "and is not usable by the stakeholders who championed this project and substantially paid for it."

I don't want it to be a kayak or walk in launch only.
I also think that just because it isn't completed, people still should be able to utilize it as they see fit as long as it is open.

We need more access to PS, not less.
SF

I'm kinda suprised that the tribes are blocking this... we had a two week salmon season in july and crab sucked a$$... why block that?

they would own 351 days to sell whatever they can catch

That still leaves them 14 more days to collect.

to collect what?

seriously, who do you work for?

Fourteen more days to harvest "whatever" without any usage of the site by recreational fishers.

That perspective is exactly why the tribal objection is so unreasonable and unsupportable. And why they could not provide any specificity to their objection that PNP usage by the public as intended would adversely impact their ability to exercise their Treaty rights (as if they have been unable to harvest their 50%). It simply does not pass the whiff test!

Apparently the Corps simply does not want to make a decision and face the political fallout. If not that, what??

Days. They had 351. Add 14 and you get all 365.

so you dont work for sportsmen... just be honest

I don't always agree with CM (and vice versa) but in this instance I believe you completely missed his point.

That said, I am not going to engage in further input as CM is pretty good at defending himself. Just thought I would offer up an unsolicited third party opinion.

Carrcassman probably works for WDFW... Larry B probably doesn't...

WDWF would do us all a favor and go out and fish puget sound... dont just take the native americans word for it

While I did, in a past life, work at WDFW (and both its predecessors), my career was spent working for the fish and the ecosystem that supports them and which they, especially salmon, are the keystone species.

My first loyalty was to ensuring the resource was protected and thriving. In my view, a dead fish doesn't spawn and really doesn't matter who or what killed it. That said, as an employee back then I worked hard (in daily interactions because we managed salmon day to day) to ensure that the non-Indian got their share. While most of the action was focused on the PS net fishery (we managed adults returning to spawn) I was also involved in pushing, and getting, rec fisheries opened to.

The Tribes are taking over the fisheries and we (agencies, politicians, and stakeholders) are letting this occur.

Piper is right, though, that it would do WDFW a whole lot of good if employees fished and hunted more. At a minimum, they would have to read the pamphlets.

Just to be clear........I no longer work (as evidenced by the timing of my posts ) nor have I ever worked for WDFW. At 70 I am third generation here in the PNW and have two sons and a granddaughter here and have been fishing since I was about 4. In short, I am invested in the PNW and am trying to ensure my progeny have the best opportunities possible all factors considered.

Oh, and since I was born in the U.S. I am a Native American, can trace my roots to the Mayflower, and have significant Norwegian heritage so could even be related to Vikings who traveled to the Americans around 1,000 A.D. Point being, we are all immigrants to the Americas.

I attended probably the last real meeting on this at a WDFW meeting in port townsend with my Kitsap CCA president. Previously I had attended Kitsap county commissioner meetings on this with my poggie president. The county commissioner that was blocking it retired and the county signed off on it . The person that sold the property to the state decades ago was then evicted by the state and the buildings were torn down.

The state had all plans for years so the state was able to put in the parking lot fast and easy and it looks great. The problem is the corps is not going to sign off on the ramp until the state obtains full agreement with the tribe. The corps has told the state this and that is the way it is.

At the meeting at port townsend the sportfishermen in attendance told WDFW that there was no way that they wanted to share that ramp with the Suquamish tribe. They wanted it for themselves only. The tribe will not sign off unless they also get to use the ramp. No sharing no ramp period. I saw the look on the faces of WDFW and I knew it was over. There will be no ramp at point no point unless we learn to share and we're too bullheaded to do that. Never gonna happen.

Now no one wants to believe what I just stated but I am afraid it is an inconvienient truth . I wonder what will happen first the Belfair bypass or the PNP ramp?

Since I testified at that meeting and have otherwise been involved in the PNP fiasco let me correct a significant error in what you have written.

The objection by tribal interests was that the launch MIGHT result in an adverse impact in their ability to exercise their Treaty rights. It was not because they could not use the ramp which WDFW has clearly and repeatedly said they could access.

What the tribes want to do is off-load product and have 24 hour use of the facility - both of which are problematic.

First is that the design and purchase of the property was accomplished using RCO money. Use of RCO money precludes commercial activities on the site - in this case read that as being the transfer of harvested product from fisher to buyer. The WDFW has repeatedly said that tribal fishers can use WDFW launches; they just have to do so IAW the applicable laws and regs to include the limitations set forth for RCO funds. It is not that the Tribes wouldn't be able to use the ramp - it is that they can't conduct commercial activities on site. That is a huge difference from what you presented.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with what any non-tribal folks may want or not want.

The other conflict is that the overnight usage demanded by the tribal interests would be in direct violation of the operational limitations for the launch as established during Kitsap County's public process leading to the issuance of the permit to which you referred. Simply put, the neighbors understandably do not want 24 hour operations to include staging of operational reefer trucks in their residential neighborhood.

The real problem here is that the Corps apparently is unwilling to look at the overall picture and come to the conclusion that the tribal concerns were de minimis and that their demands were dead on arrival and amounted to nothing more than a way to kill the project.

Since you were at that meeting you certainly were privy to the letter from the Director to the tribes, right?

A few years back I was down on the Columbia river at a dam. I looked over and saw a boat ramp and thought great there is a ramp I can use. When I drove over there the sign said tribal use only. I really didn't care who paid for the ramp (Me, probably my taxes ) or what the regulations were. I was very unhappy that I could not use it because my skin was the wrong color.

I imagine the tribe feels the same way about this ramp. Has anyone asked them? The only thing the tribe does is commercial. If they cannot use it for that I am sure they have lost interest. That letter from the director is probably sitting in the back of a file cabinet. Under the current situation we now have that YOU just described I do not see much chance of success. The tribe like anyone can be bought and the price is access to the ramp.

No one wants to hear or believe what I just typed including me but I am afraid it is true.

Would guiding/chartering be considered a commercial enterprise?

And this gets to the crux of the issue. Should the non-tribal citizens of the State have to pay off tribal interests for access across public property to a public waterway on the basis of a specious claim of prospective damages? I consider that to be extortion and unfortunately the Corps is facilitating it.

Can public property be considered under the same guidelines as reservation property. A whole river was commandeered and the public lost all access. So, there is no prejudice shown to the tribes in this case. All Commercial activities are prohibited by state statute, not just tribal. It's State law, as citizens of the State, they and everyone should comply.

Commandeered is a good description for the Federal action on the Skok insofar as it was the Dept. of Interior's legal opinion as to where the reservation boundary is located which caused the State's knees to buckle. One must keep in mind that the Dept. of Interior is the parent organization to the Dept. of Indian Affairs and, therefore, is not exactly perceived by many of us as having an unbiased, objective position.

The PNP debacle is driven the Corps and their unwillingness to make a decision based upon the information provided to them. Now, if that organization is willing to come out and support the tribal position that tribal rights include the ability to put a stop to any and all projects within their (tribes') U&A no matter how frivolous until and unless the permit applicant pays off the tribe(s) which is apparently the case we are screwed.

Update Oct 26 Thursday
In 2015, WDFW Director Unsworth’s letter to Col. Buck, Corps of Engineers, said “We are writing to ask that the US Army Corps of Engineers proceed with its decision-making process on the WDFW 2013 permit application to construct a boat launch at Point No Point.”

However, last week, the Corps says they have not been asked by the WDFW to approve the permit. The Corps says , “My current understanding of this situation is that WDFW does not want a permit decision over tribal objections at this time.”

What is the “situation”? What objections? To me, it appears the WDFW was going full speed ahead in 2015, then hit a snag, and there is some tertiary/alternate reason (threat of retribution) so the WDFW has not asked again for the approval. We know the tribe wants compensation for damages they refuse to specify, and I know the WDFW has negotiated to great extent, last year offering to pay for their fish food (literally) for tribal hatcheries…but there is something else going on.

I think the tribes have bought time by delaying the process, and may have integrated new demands, most likely at a higher price. WDFW has proactively contacted the tribe over the last 4 years (or more), and have addressed every legitimate issue they’ve had.
I’ve sent 6 emails in the past 3 months to WFDW, all without reply. So, as it stands right now, the Corps has indicated they’ll proceed, as soon as the WDFW asks then to. WHATS THE HOLD UP?

To me, I don’t know what the new issue is because the WDFW has never called back. That makes it hard to know what the pay-back will be down the road, or what threat of extortion they are under for some other issue…I do know this project started with a $1,000,000 budget, and the cost-to-date because of delays now exceeds $5,000,000, and it’s not done yet….no ramp in sight!

Perhaps "someone" should reach out to various media and social media outlets and point some fingers at this huge waste of taxpayers dollars??

I'm afraid the media isn't interested in anything that paints the tribes negatively and, frankly, the Corps doesn't seem to be willing/able (politics??) to render any decision.

It has been approximately two years since the Director sent his letter to the Corps asking for a decision. When does inaction become a negative response? What is the appeal process? Court?

If it involves the State suing the Corps will the current Governor and AG be on board?

If it involves challenging the Tribes the State will have no part in it. A third party might try a suit.

To be clear, WDFW Director Unsworth asked for a decision in 2015, then backed off for some unknown reason. They sure won't tell me what it is, let alone return an email request.
I intend to file FOIA tomorrow, and maybe every day after that too (anyone want to jon me?) as I'm outta patience after 15 years of waiting.
I do not have this WDFW backdown in writing or any objective for continuing to negotiate, but the Corps has recently said they will act if the WDFW asks them to decide on DE MINIMUS tribal objections and delays

As far as I know, WDFW has stopped working on this, has not asked for a decision, has not posted any updates in the last 8 months, and won't reply to email or calls.

By the way, a link to this thread has been sent to WDFW Unsworth and Ron Warren, and to the Corps. Only the Corps has responded.

I've patiently worked on this since 2002, and for the last few years, have watched as the tribes indicate resolution is near, only to watch the timelines for the permit and installation expies, and go into yet another year.

I've been patient to the point of stupidity. I have not rung phones off the hook, or been a nuisance, but I I foresee buying bulk ink cartridges for the amount of FOIA requests I'm going to generate. I'm done being patient and polite, as I've proven this will not even generate an 45 second email or 3 minute phone response from WDFW.

A copy of this link has also been sent to Senator Pearson and Congresswoman Liz Pike.

Ned, I would encourage you to contact both Senator Pearson’s office and Congresswoman Pike’s and let them know what’s going on with this issue. They need the citizens to bring these kind of issues to their attention.

Kitsap County political landscape:

I have called our District 1 Kitsap County Commissioner Rob Gelder, and his office directed me elsewhere, saying they did not see any way they could assist and this was not a county issue (what?).

I called Senator Christine Rolfes office, and they said ,"I am unable to influence state or federal permitting decisions, ... We have been trying to facilitate a positive outcome for this project for quite some time."
Update: Trying to facilitate for 16 years now...

I called Congressman Derek Kilmers office, and they responded that the tribes felt they were losing too much ground on their rights to harvest. They did not acknowledge my point of view, but thoroughly pointed out the tribal rights (which did not apply to our conversation topics)...I thought they were MY representative, not tribal delegates. (Translate: They do not want to participate, so you're on your on.)

Here Is the latest development: The RCO money, approved and available to install the ramp for the last several years, was about to expire. If it did, it would be lost, so justifiably, the WDFW returned it so it could be used for other projects. The money will take 2 years to recover, minimum.

The WDFW has continued to negotiate with the Suquamish tribe, and has repeated asked them WHAT they want in compensation for hypothetical damage to their nets (even though they cannot net in Area 9 where the ramp is). The tribe refuses to provide any information over the last 12 months, even after WDFW extended response deadlines 3 times to fit the 2016 agenda, the tribe still will not provide a response. At all. Nothing.

Meanwhile, Jerry Gregory is the contact for Point No Point ramp business at the Corps of Engineers for Colonel Buck, in command of the Seattle Army Corps HQ. Over the past several (4-6 ) years, he (Jerry) has assured me the permit would be processed and he did not see any obstacles to approval. This positive outlook seemed firm, given the WDFW, and NOAA, and National Marine Fisheries Service, and Kitsap County, and Ecology have all approved the ramp, and addressed all the ESA, fisheries, and mitigation issues brought by the Suquamish Tribe. ALL OF THEM!

The Corps was asked by WDFW Director James Unsworth to approve the ramp permit in 2015. The Corps has not responded. http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/12/dec1115_08_usarce.pdf

Shortly after this letter, I was told by the Corps they had an internal meeting of legal counsel to discuss the ramp permit. I asked for access, and was denied. I asked for information on that meeting, and was denied. I further asked for a legal reason the Corps was not performing their duty, and received no response.

I hereby apologize to the WDFW for my earlier post pointing the finger at them (though it served its purpose), but that was based on information I received from the Corp. So now, I direct my questions to the Corps:

WHY are you NOT representing the people of the government that you work for?

Why did your legal team meet behind closed doors, and not share the results with WDFW or anyone else about this project?

What is the legal basis for your actions of not approving the ramp permit?

Who is stopping Jerry Gregory from finishing a file that has been on his desk for years, and why has Col. Buck not recognized all the WDFW/NOAA/County/Fisheries/Ecology work, and instead, been discussing undisclosed issues behind closed doors?

How can anyone know what their stance is, or what to address, or what their issue is without disclosure? How do we proceed?

Back to my original post: Why is the USACE office not performing?

Ned, I salute you for your perseverance and tenacity in digging into this. I'm sure you are viewed as a pit bull to these guys, and I'm sure they are hoping you will just go away....I know you won't!

Secret meetings, prohibiting public oversight and silence to a citizens request for information...this is what our democracy has become!

Too bad Ned didn't have one of those little spy flies on their conference room wall. I am sure it would have been very illuminating to say the least. That said, any meeting where the decision makers are discussing issues with their legal counsel is privileged - that is, not open to the public. As frustrating as that can seem I do understand.

But what I do not understand is the failure of the Corps to simply issue the permit considering the absence of any meaningful information from the objecting tribe(s) or to hold a public meeting to explain the Corps' lack of positive action on behalf of the citizens of the U.S. keeping in mind that when the treaty was signed by the Federal representatives it was on behalf of its citizens which did not include the tribes and their citizens.

As I have opined previously this has been nothing short of a shake down (extortion) by the tribe(s) facilitated by the Corps and, frankly, purposely ignored by our own Federal legislators.

Just heard the money expired and was sent back. Sounds like the State has admitted defeat and will no longer pursue the ramp.

Not true. Stay tuned...but don't hold your breath.

Stay on em Ned!!! We’ll wait for your update!

It is my recollection that the actual site development monies came from an economic stimulus pot. One of the big issues several years ago (summer 2015) was whether that money was going away. At that time we were told it had been extended.

If that money has actually expired or is otherwise no longer available there is a bright side in that the Legislature has stopped raiding the RCO account. No, they haven't replaced the millions they stole out of that dedicated account but at least they have stopped stealing from it meaning RCO money should be available - the RCO folks simply have to put PNP at the head of their list of projects without going through the bureaucratic application process.

Hello RCO - are you on board??

I'm still at it...with a lot of others too!

Update: Instead of requesting the Corps review and decide on the permit as the legal process requires, the wdfw decided the timeline on rco funds was going to expire and returned the funds. I think they were approved 5 years ago.

Wdfw SHOULD HAVE submitted to the corps 6 months ago, and if the corps denied the permit, THEN returned the funds. Instead, wdfw opted to delay and surrender without trying for approval.

So, that said, I've been told director unsworth will meet with his PNP ramp team tomorrow , Dec 11, to focus on a plan and get news on the latest info. Wdfw salmon guy Ron Warren has been the lead guy on this for the last couple years. Guess what: Ron is out on vacation until Nov 18.

So, a meeting that should have happened 4-6 months ago to align with funding timelines, was delayed due to lack of fundamental planning, then was scheduled for a time when the lead wdfw guy will not be attending.

And as we enter our 16th year on this project for REPLACING a one-lane ramp for public access, they wonder why I am short on patience.

1. Are the Tribes happy?
Yes
2. Then it's no problem.

The continued growing pile of issues that Director Unsworth has failed as a leader to get a handle on, may be more than he can weather. We had such great hopes for this boy when he first came in, and actually fought for us during "Cohogate" He has since collapsed and we are immeasurable worse off now than ever before. What we need to be very aware that IF the Director is let go, WE NEED to vet his replacement and insure he does not agree that Sportsmen are second class citizens!

The only way for sportsmen and women to get recognized is to stop supporting the department. If they don't sell licenses, they essentially die. So long as they keep selling then we are telling them that they are doing a job worth supporting.

The Leg won't act, unless there are enough campaign donations to counteract Tribal and Commercial. Same with the Gov.

We, collectively, hold the power....

We will buy licenses, if we wait 'till boycotting fishing in our home state we'll be dead before we see any change. We'll put intime we could be fishing to go to any public forum where our concerns are heard but we're certainly not going to give up fishing on the hopes that some hare-brained boycott will actually succeed. Bob and Melanie

And by going fishing in WA you are supporting the way they manage. Fish and Wildlife is a pay as you go system. So long as the money is coming in, the feedback is positive.

No, they know me well enough from PUBLIC MEETINGS to know that at least MY feedback isn't positive. What I won't do is cut off my nose to spite my face by not buying a license while the amount of people that ARE willing to cut off their own noses is such a small % as to be immeasurable. It would be a lot easier to get significant numbers of people to show up and force them to hold meetings in a larger forum and last all day due to meaningful public input. You know, like I heard yesterday. A good start, for sure. Bob R

I hope you're right, Bob, that they are listening and will act as the stakeholders and law demand. I just doubt they will. There are bigger stakeholders telling them what to do. And they listen to them.

I can't say what the results of folks going to the meetings in numbers and reading them the riot act will be, but I find it at least hopeful, but you are right, bigger players in the game, only answer is to drown them with large numbers of pissed off fisher folk. Bob R

Nope. Money is all that matters. That is what buys influence.

If you are pissed off, still give WDFW your money, and they still grow fish for the Tribes (with your money) what will make them change?

Since there is no like button on this forum just assume I like
pretty much every post Carcassman posts.

Well, if you and broodbuster do what you threaten that will be two less fishermen taking limited fish that the rest of us will take. Isn't that called foregone opportunity? Please, encourage others. Thanks! Bob R

Done-

At least until I move to Ak and become part of the problem that you're subsidizing!!!

Appreciate that

I do appreciate it! Our state is becoming too crowded, more people should move to Alaska. I'm sure the resident population will appreciate wholesale moves to their state as well. They'll be waiting with open arms. While the rest of us wave 'bye. Bob R

Infighting is exactly what we DON'T need right now. Yes, money talks. That's why WDFW is paying attention to us. Because we ARE the largest chunk of money. 68.9% according to the latest budget slides. And that doesn't take into account the massive contribution to the economy!

So, here is what I propose. Rather than debate the value of withholding a few licenses sales. Why not contact the new Chair of the Budget Committee and let her know how frustrated you are and that your ready to just pull your funding to WDFW. Give this a chance to make some positive changes.

The leadership of WDFW would like nothing more than for the sport fishing community to start tearing apart over the frustration they caused. Let's not give them the satisfaction.

When people say it is useless to go to public meetings and that only money talks that is definitely counter-productive to any change. Boycotting license sales will only work when enough people go along with that, and that's NOT going to happen. If you think talking this crap out is infighting, well, see how playing nice and not ruffling feathers works out. If we can't figure out what works and what doesn't we are already screwed. Bob R

Bob, I agree with you 100% that speaking out in public meetings has an important impact. As you know, I have been speaking out for over a year now. I did not mean to imply that making our point to the Commission and Department was "infighting". Hell, they NEED to hear from us loud and clear. I was pointing out that we as sportsmen need to stay together in a strong coalition with our focus on the department and not each other's position.

Many years ago I bought an old F150 4x4 to launch my 16ft boat at Eglon around the high tide. Used to be able to sling launch at PnP.

I'll keep buying a license to be a stakeholder.
I'm okay with the co-managers harvesting hatchery fish in terminal areas.

No need to to extract maximum allowable take on the wild fishes.

I believe that is a threshold to avoid. Rather than some DFW Harvest Management goal to reach.

Update, Dec 15, 2017.
Last Monday, Dec 11, there was a meeting at WDFW as described above in my Dec 10 post. Nothing happened: The Director was not there, nor was Ron Warren, who is in charge of this file. So, they talked about continuing to try to get a response from the Suquamish tribe, having the Corps try mediation, change the ramp project (after 15 years of working on it), and so on. Nothing productive was proposed, and nothing decided, only batting the ball back and forth.

There is supposed to be another meeting in a couple weeks when the Director and Warren will be available.

I fully expect the tribe will file suit and get an injunction to stop ramp construction if the permit is approved. We will never know if it is approved unless it is resubmitted to the Corps by WDFW. They are both hemming and hawing and killing time, trying to avoiding the probable legal action. Somehow, they kinda blame that on us (citizens) when its their (govt) process we are following. What the heck are they delaying this for. Wait 10 more years, then do it? It would be the same issue, except the stakes get higher every year.

I am so sick of all this pussy-footing around, and people not doing their jobs.
"If you can't stand the heat.... "

WDFW needs to publicly demand that the Corps make a decision on the permit application based upon the facts presented to it and allow the process to play itself out. That is, an injunction/suit by the tribe or an appeal by WDFW.

What WDFW can't do is knuckle under and change the design to what would no doubt be a car topper/kayak launch which would not benefit the people whose money paid for the property and design but would appease tribal interests. Nor should WDFW acquiesce to the very unreasonable demands (extortion) of those same tribal interests.

This is a perfect example of how unbalanced the playing field has become.

And, Ned, thank you for your ongoing efforts on this debacle.