Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds.

Posted by: Chinook 1

Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 10:53 AM

I guess feeding a harbor seal is illegal.
https://mynorthwest.com/1454730/dori-tom...5_cOjdxe5Qb7CaU
Posted by: stonefish

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 11:43 AM

Ridiculous fine and good for him not paying it.
What’s next....fining anglers for feeding seals or sea lions that steal and eat a fish off the end of their fishing line?
SF
Posted by: Hankster

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 01:12 PM

He fed a hunk of salmon to a seal?

[gasp]

Doesn't he know by doing that those f'n seals will start eating salmon now?

Hang him.
Posted by: On The Swing

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 01:49 PM

Kind of a ridiculous fine...

But then again so is a grown man not calling out the law enforcement, and rather deciding to wage a war saying that ALL of NOAA should be abolished.
Real mature, and a great way to get the conversation started in your favor 😉
Posted by: Salmo g.

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 02:05 PM

Selective enforcement. I've seen it before where NMFS doesn't take legal action against a corporation that can afford a room full of lawyers, but instead takes legal action against a single private citizen who possibly has a single attorney who is out gunned and over-whelmed by the agency legal team. It's not cost effective in terms of resource protection and wise use of public funds. But I think the intent is to prevent a large number of private citizens from conducting actions that take listed species and be too numerous for the agency to contend with; i.e., if 500 people each went out and shot one seal that would tie up the entirety of LE and legal resources for years. Yet it wouldn't make a even a small dent in the harbor seal problem.
Posted by: Carcassman

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 02:14 PM

Thing is, you can actually get him on a Clean Water Act violation. You can't put biological materials into the water. Can't clean fish into the water. Found this out when we (WDF) were in technical violation of the CWA when we gaffed a salmon, spawned it, and then put the carcass back. USFS actually made WDF landfill them. In order to do the carcass returns we had to go through the SEPA approval process, which we did.
Posted by: blackmouth

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 03:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Thing is, you can actually get him on a Clean Water Act violation. You can't put biological materials into the water. Can't clean fish into the water. Found this out when we (WDF) were in technical violation of the CWA when we gaffed a salmon, spawned it, and then put the carcass back. USFS actually made WDF landfill them. In order to do the carcass returns we had to go through the SEPA approval process, which we did.


I would hope that most people could realize that "getting someone on the Clean Water Act" would be less of a waste of taxpayers funds than having totally unproductive inter-agency squabbles that only serve to please some bureaucrat that is trying to protect his/her fiefdom.
Posted by: Bobber Downey Jr.

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 05:41 PM

King 5 did a story last summer about the lummi tribe catching chinook to toss at the orcas. Slightly different angle in that piece.
Posted by: cobble cruiser

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/19/19 09:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Thing is, you can actually get him on a Clean Water Act violation. You can't put biological materials into the water. Can't clean fish into the water. Found this out when we (WDF) were in technical violation of the CWA when we gaffed a salmon, spawned it, and then put the carcass back. USFS actually made WDF landfill them. In order to do the carcass returns we had to go through the SEPA approval process, which we did.


Dang should all be punished for feeding crabs old carcasses and carcass residue that escapes crab traps? Where is the line?
Posted by: Carcassman

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/20/19 06:33 AM

Dumping the pot bait after fishing is probably a violation. Having it fall out during fishing, probably not. Not saying it takes sense, but that was the law as explained to us.
Posted by: Tug 3

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/20/19 07:36 AM

All I can say is that the moron that issued the infraction to T. J. needs more than counseling.
Posted by: Rivrguy

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/20/19 09:12 AM


Well I was told that DOE made old WDF stream surveyors toss the carcasses up on the bank so they did not pollute the stream. Heavens DNR even required timber harvesters to remove woody debris in some streams even though it was natural. One thing about a post back a bit. Years ago DOE forced a commercial pan size salmon grower out of business. She was using net pens in a private lake than was a former gravel pit. Thing is she could not afford lawyers to fight back. DOE will always zero in on those who cannot afford large legal expenses and seldom challenge those who have deep pockets.
Posted by: Evo

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/20/19 10:55 AM

pretty soon they will come after people that throw fish eggs covered in dye and cures....

and people that drag herring they just caught and put it on a rig and troll it through the same water that they caught it from...
Posted by: Jake Dogfish

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/20/19 11:44 AM

If you can’t see the difference of fishing with bait and hand feeding a baby seal Salmon for a publicity stunt, there is something wrong with you!
I hope he gets what he wants and they throw the book at him. Explain to me why he won’t pay the fine? Do we want everyone to go down to the docks and feed Salmon to the Pinnipeds?
Posted by: Bay wolf

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/20/19 03:29 PM

What Nelson did was dumb. But he did it without much thought and probably not much more heinous then what many of us have done. The difference is he did it while filming a news spot and had his face in everyone’s living room. Some people got hot and started raising hell.
Unfortunately for Tom, he decided to use this to make a point. I’m sure that those who listen to his radio show will get an earful about this and the issues of seals eating Chinook, but he’s preaching to the choir. We all know seals are a problem. Ol Tom might think he’s making a point,
but having broke the law by feeding salmon scraps to a seal, and then pointing out how seals are eating salmon seems counterintuitive.
Posted by: eldplanko

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/20/19 05:28 PM

So I guess feeding a rockfish to eagles is a no no also?
Posted by: Myassisdragon

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/21/19 09:31 AM

Or shakers to seagulls...
Posted by: Salmo g.

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/21/19 09:39 AM

The legal issue is unlawful "take." The form of take that tossing a salmon fin to a seal could be is "harassment." NMFS has to prove that this action constitutes harassment. The downside is that the courts generally defer to the agency's technical expertise. The upside for Tom is that the only difference between what he did and when a seal takes a salmon from a fishing line or from a gillnet or eats the innards tossed overboard when cleaning a fish is that tossing the fin to the seal was deliberate and not coincidental, as the other actions are. So there is uncertainty in the outcome.
Posted by: Tug 3

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/21/19 10:37 AM

Not that I'm a legal expert (anymore), this old retired fishcop thinks that the definition of a "Take" requires that the fish that TJ fed the seal was wild, and covered under ESA. Obviously just any old salmon taken under legal conditions and seasons, which I'm sure Tom did, does not amount to a "Take". If there are other issues regarding feeding the sea lion, I don't know much about them. (And don't care)Maybe I'm also guilty of this infraction (not a crime) when I lost two big kings right at the side of my boat near Astoria. The salmon were under my control, almost. Maybe if I'd been more aggressive I could have netted them.

My friend, Riverguy, brings up points about overzealous bureaucrats like DOE not following the intent of the rules, but interpreting them in a way to bolster a personal view. Reminds me of when a few of us law enforcement types at a road block were huddled around a burning barrel late at night in Kid Valley in April trying to stay warm just before St' Helens erupted. DOE employee insisted that we put it out due to burn ban. Just a few miles up the road the mountain is belching sulfur fumes in huge quantities. Ridiculous. I could go on and on.

Years ago WDF pulled large woody debris from the streams, and straightened out meanders. Now we put debris in. We couldn't clean our fish in the rivers, now we do nutrient enhancement. I hope our leaders get more stuff figured out while I'm still alive, and I'm in the Home Stretch of life now.
Posted by: Smalma

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/21/19 11:06 AM

Tug-
I believe that the potential "take" may have been under the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA). I have not dug into the MMPA in sometime but seem to recall that feeding or attempting to feed a protected marine mammal was one of the activities that were considered a "take" under the act. The rationale maybe that such feeding may alter the behavior of the animal.

Curt
Posted by: Evo

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/21/19 11:12 AM

the government was throwing antibiotic filled salmon out of a boat to feed the Orcas not that long ago...

are they going to get in trouble?
Posted by: cobble cruiser

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/21/19 08:58 PM

So trivial... people need to get over themselves. This is overwhelmingly ridiculous...
Posted by: OLD FB

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/21/19 09:41 PM

Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
So trivial... people need to get over themselves. This is overwhelmingly ridiculous...


+100 and Thank You!
Posted by: On The Swing

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/22/19 10:46 AM

Baywolf, smalma and salmo I think are spot on, I agree with you tug on the surface.
But the devil lies in the details.
Feeding ANY animal in the state could get you a fine, from feeding ducks in some local lakes, to feeding by hand or close proximity another wild animal like a red fox..I figured this out after a FB posted video wink
I don't think he was malicious in the act BUUUT he was also on a tv show while he did it!! He made himself be made an example of, plain and simple.
We have had issues with seals and sea lions being too comfortable around people for quite some time now and it is a series of small actions like this that breed that kind of behavior IMO.
I think Tom should pay the damn fine, but I ALSO think the government has a responsibility to educate as well (which will be an interesting feat with his slander campaign).
Cut the fine a bit, educate on both sides and from both parties...pay the goddamn reduced fine and take some f@cking accountability, be an adult!

And his [Bleeeeep!] rant about how NOAA should be dissolved just because of this, a war drum he still continues to beat...as if this is the ONLY thing that dept does...is COMPLETELY f@cking childish and now pretty much the only reason I want to see him pay the whole fine or go to jail...Idgaf which. His childish nonsense is a mockery to the sport and the caring participants therein.
Posted by: RowVsWade

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/22/19 04:57 PM

While that dipshit was wasting time writing a ticket and making a federal case out of something as ridiculous and trivial as this the “state” has another sewage spill. 3 MILLION gallons of Seattle’s Best special blend Raw Sewage is dumped in the bay.....AGAIN! hello People wonder why respect for law enforcement is reaching all time lows? This clown is a prime example.

WTF happened to this place? It was a great place to grow up in. Back in the 70’s and 80’s it wasn’t the moronic, tax happy, police state that it is today.

Posted by: Rivrguy

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/22/19 05:15 PM


The fundamental difference between the past and now is a whole sh-- pot of folks moved here to get away from the very same thing that they vote for now. Strange how that works but get out of PS and the place is still the WA ST it was.
Posted by: avidangler

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/22/19 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Rivrguy

The fundamental difference between the past and now is a whole sh-- pot of folks moved here to get away from the very same thing that they vote for now. Strange how that works but get out of PS and the place is still the WA ST it was.


That is happening everywhere as the population increases. But people keep having babies.
Posted by: the_chemist

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/22/19 06:36 PM

Case in point why we don't want pinnipeds to comfortable with people. These fellas get fed all the time at steveston. Man up, pay the damn fine, and don't record yourself doing something illegal next time.

https://youtu.be/4OeWKGL4dvE
Posted by: TedR

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/23/19 07:54 AM

the_chemist

Tom's action and the video you posted are like, not the same problem.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/23/19 08:17 AM

Having been at that cleaning station several times there is always one or more seals hanging around waiting for an easy meal of scraps. For practical purposes there is no difference between dropping a carcass in front of a waiting seal and what Nelson did in terms of habituating them to people as a food source.

What was different was that he, Nelson, was making a point about the proliferation of pinnipeds and their documented predatory impact on salmonids. In my opinion NOAA's actions are more about the public criticism than the deed of leading a seal astray.

NOAA's actions are actually counter-productive in that they have resulted in a continuation of the story with more publicity and negative feelings about NOAA and the heavy hand of the Government. Furthermore, it perpetuates the reality that NOAA/NMFS is (still) doing nothing to reduce pinniped predation in Puget Sound despite growing scientific evidence of its magnitude of that predation on ESA listed Chinook and ESA listed SRKW which feed on the Chinook.
Posted by: Capt Downriggin'

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/28/19 03:02 AM

I doubt he's going to jail for not paying a fine, but I am guessing he'll be served and forced to pay the fine plus fees via federal court order if he still refuses. The feds will win or find a way to win

Still refuse? That fine will show up on his credit report as a debt to the federal government after judgement. Try cleaning/clearing that on your credit report or try to get a loan - in a timely manner! I've seen 800-plus credit scores not get a loan for much less due to a tax/ lien or debt to the government. Not to mention how many eyes will be on him...

Take the lump(s), pay the fine and move on...
Posted by: NickD90

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/28/19 06:06 AM

Isn't it weird that feeding all wild life is illegal except when hunting for deer or elk? I guess bears, coyotes, squirrels, crows and other forest critters would never consider eating some chow from a bait pile. So is every dock-side cleaning station in the state now going to be listed as 'illegal' to use?

Arbitrary rules seems rather arbitrary. I'd want to fight paying that fine as well, but knowing how the government works, it's usually best just to pay it and move on.

What a bunch of bullchit.
Posted by: Carcassman

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/28/19 07:20 AM

Interesting cleaning station down in the southern end of the Everglades NP, I think the name of the village is Flamingo. Anyway, best place to easily see American Crocodiles, who gather there for some eats. Saw a couple nice sized ones, over 10'.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/28/19 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: NickD90
Isn't it weird that feeding all wild life is illegal except when hunting for deer or elk? I guess bears, coyotes, squirrels, crows and other forest critters would never consider eating some chow from a bait pile. So is every dock-side cleaning station in the state now going to be listed as 'illegal' to use?

Arbitrary rules seems rather arbitrary. I'd want to fight paying that fine as well, but knowing how the government works, it's usually best just to pay it and move on.

What a bunch of bullchit.


Huh? I believe hunting over bait is illegal in WA. That said, anyone dropping a salmon carcass in front of a seal at that cleaning station could be cited.
Posted by: BroodBuster

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/28/19 11:54 AM

Nope-Only baiting waterfowl and bear is illegal in Wa.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/28/19 01:18 PM

Originally Posted By: BroodBuster
Nope-Only baiting waterfowl and bear is illegal in Wa.


Been awhile since I hunted in WA so I checked the regs and at least for elk and deer you are absolutely correct - see page 92 of the current regs. I stand corrected; thanks.
Posted by: wodawic

Re: Looks like Tommy's in trouble with the feds. - 07/28/19 07:48 PM

Pay it in pennies. Gotta have fun with it.