Stacks of wild fish for sale...........

I work in downtown Seattle...walked to the Pike place and was horrified at the amount of wild (intact) adipose finned natives that were for sale 3.99 a pound, that means they probally were purchased for around 1.50-2.00 a pound? What a crying shame!!!!! The fish monger i talked to about this said they were from the Hoh river.Folks its time to picket these fish purveyors.My question to you intelligent people is...do we need a permit? Does private property mean anything? I have a friend that works for King tv that might be of some assistance. Lets not wait any longer my fellow steelheader's. Please i want to hear from you and any of your ideas or comments, thanks for reading, Ron

Put something together and I will be there. Its time it stoped. The gill netting in the rivers just has to stop.

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dank
Keep The Rivers Clean!

[This message has been edited by kalamabama (edited 01-22-2001).]

Give some notice, and I will be there. Weekends are bad for me.
I can't believe the amount of wild fish being harvested, and for around $1 a pound. What a shame. It doesn't even seem worthwhile to keep netting for such a little profit, yet the netting continues.

At $2 a pound it wouldn't cost that much to pay the tribes not to fish. All the funds spent on habitat, hatcheries and etc. seem to be wasted if the tribes are going to gillnet the rivers. Maybe the first investment in wild steelhead would be to subsidise not netting during the native season.

I was at the Boats Afloat Show on Lake Union this weekend. I usually eat lunch at Chandler's Crab House, but they were advertising "Wild Steelhead", so my freinds and I ate at Cuchina Cuchina instead. Another place to boycott.

Without a doubt. It is time to not only picket, but to make phone calls to Pacific Seafood 425-347-7994 (Mukilteo), definatly boycott any restuarant that sells these fish, and let them know why, preferably in written form. If everyone spent 25% of the time that they spent on this forum on making the sales of these fish uncomfortable for all involved, then the purveyors would rethink things. I am in the restuarant industry and am constantly telling people not to buy these fish, but we need more action. This has been going for way too many years.
Lets Make It Happen!

Thanks fava for the following

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fava:
If everyone spent 25% of the time that they spent on this forum on making the sales of these fish uncomfortable for all involved, then the purveyors would rethink things.

Think about what you can do?

We should make sure to keep the topic on banning gill nets and stopping the harvesting and selling of wild steelhead, and not be anti-tribe. Let people know that the commercial harvesting and selling of wild steelhead has to stop.
Also if anyone has a list of establishments that sell or purchase wild steelhead, post it.
I know it would be helpful to give to people as a list of places to avoid.

[This message has been edited by KORE (edited 01-22-2001).]

IT'S ON! Lets make it happen. now is a good time to do it while the fishing is slow. (it should be red hot this time of year)

Hey, lets pay them off enough so they can start their own micro brewery that way they can make a profit while keeping their main food source.(ha-ha?)

I dont want to bore anyone with the details about why the tribes fish commercially.
I couldnt have any problem with the tribes fishing for sustenance. That's what the Stevens Treaties and Boldt decision were all about. And at the going rate of $.75 per lb, the tribes have to realize they're doing more harm than good, even to themselves. If they'd cut back, the supply would go down, if demand remains level then the price will go up. They wouldnt have to work so hard or take so many fish to make the same $bucks.
Paying them not to fish would be easy, if (according to some) so much of the $$$ wasnt going up their noses or wherever.

Thats all their tradition and our future is worth .75 to 1.00 a pound.

Only together can we make a difference.....Os

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Row Quietly and fish a Cataraft
Release all Wild Fish----<'))>>{
"Just Say No To Sovereign Nations!"
Ban All Nets!!!!!

Ban All Nets

Ban All Nets

But in all reality something has to be done about the comercial fishermen!

I actually think the low prices for wild steelhead, both in the market, and what the tribes are getting, reflect some awareness of the public that eating wild steelhead is not a good thing. Geez, there already selling the fish for a buck or two less per lb then the farms are selling triploid rainbows.

And look at how the markets talk up the wild kings when they come into season (Columbia R., Alaska, Copper R.), yet steelhead are sold in only a few select areas.

I think the pressure put on by individuals and groups are working. Although I don't keep tabs on prices, I seem to recall the .70 per lb price has been around for a number of seasons, meaning price and demand are pretty stagnant. I've also only seen steelhead sold during the winter; haven't seen summer steelhead for sale. I actually wonder where a lot of the steelhead is going, since it only shows up in the markets for a short time during the winter.

As for paying the tribes not to fish; this is something they have never been receptive too. They want to keep their treaty fishing rights.

Bottom line, continuing to educate the public will keep prices and demand down to hopefully a point where it just isn't worth catching enough fish for the market.

I've waged my own war against these markets for years. Every time I go to pike place I make a point to to stop by all the fish markets to give them hell about the piles of wild OP steelhead, It just makes me sick everytime I see it. My other half won't even stand by me anymore when were nearing a fish market she just keeps walking. So people, you can count me in anytime, How about this weekend. We need to do this fairly soon while the wild fish are still there. It's time we stand up and let our voices be heard as a group. WE MUST ACT NOW TO SAVE OUR WILD FISH. The state and the tribes sure as hell aren't doing anything.

Hmm, Now, Lemme see if I got this straight.

"Tribe not fish. Want more Wampum"
" $.70 a pound, thats all I'll pay. Not a penny more."
"Great White Father Geedub, Red Man need help. White man not buy fish. Send money. Need money, or make more Red Kids."

Anyhow, if it werent for the sake of the fish runs, it might be cheaper to let them decimate the runs completely, then restock with Atlantic Species. Then the tribes wouldnt have anymore fish to have a claim to.

Oh well, It looks like Ive got too much time on my hands.

I say we donate one day of our beloved hobby and get out there and raise some hell! I say we get every able bodied; bait chuckin, plug pullin, light linning, soggy sock wearin, beer drinkin, weird hatted, loomis loving, fly swinging, rock climbing, net hating, indian despising, red blooded, american we can find, and get our vioces heard.

Just think guys.... Give one day for all of those Native steelies/Salmon that gave US some of there time that we will remember forever.
JUST ONE DAY... We have presidents day, MLK day, lets give one day for the fish. If every steelhead and salmon fisherman came to Seattle to get our point across, we would be making great strides in getting those damn nets out! Why not pick a day and gather the troops to see if we can do something???

just a thought...

- BW

Bank Walker!! you da man, lmfao good post!! funnier then hell :> )

obsessed, you wonder where all the fish go, ask Pacific Seafood Company, they actually ship most of the steelhead out of state, to other markets, but mainly to supermarkets in the midwest. It is an easy sale for them, fresh salmon like fish out of the knowledge zone, the people who buy have no idea where they come from and care even less. In Washington, it is a bit of a hassle to sell wild steelhead, you need a permit, once i was told that it cost $500 bucks, but i find that hard to believe. Pressure on any market or restaurant will slowly have effect, especially if it can be consistent. I will make some calls in the morning and see if i can find out some specifics so that i can post some names.It is also time to pressure our fine lawmakers into passing a law that forbids the sale of wild steelhead. This has already been done in Oregon, ten years ago!
Save our wild Steelhead.

Bank Walker -
Great post, but you will find that most people will complain about and not stand up for this issue.
Check out my post in the Thread "Wild Steelhead for sale".
After posting my willingness to help organize some people the thread was dropped. I even posted my email and got only one response, and this person had not posted in the thread. Where did all the angry and upset posters go? No one posted there anymore, but 3 new threads popped up with/about the same info on markets and picketing.
I think your "Just One Day" quote is perfect, but I think that a big rally would be better off at the Capitol steps. They have resident news media there, it makes things look bigger, and should garner more interest.
I also think that we could accomplish alot by having a one day picket at our local markets across the state. ahh hell...it's all in my other post and I don't expect to see anymore posts here (but new ones will surface) so why the hell am I writing?

Peace...

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"Just Say No To Sovereign Nations!"

riverswild, i am not going to let this one rest. I am taking the angle of not attacking the indian's rights to net, but making it hard for the fish to be sold. At work today, i will glean as much info about who actually sells these wild steelhead, then we can progress from there. I think it is great that individuals give them hell at Pike Place, they deserve it. Yes it is dissapointing that so many people will put in their two bits and then go post on how to cure salmon, one day if something is not done, we may not have the luxury of having much of anything in our rivers, let alone something to cure. If you think it would help to correspond through e-mail, more privatly, them lets do that, but i personally will not give up yet.
Make it illegal to buy and sell wild steelhead!

fava and riverswild,
I am not about to let this one drop. Let me know if you want someone to show up and raise hell at one of the markets and I will come. Give me some notice though. Weekends have been bad lately for me. Also when you get that list you are working on done, fava, post a copy. I will hand it out to people and avoid these businesses, throughout the year.
Beyond actually trying to destroy the nets(which would be wrong-Or would it?) This appears to be one of the only legal alternatives.

It is unecessary and unwise to refer to stereotyped Native American behaviors -drug use and alchoholism- or use terms like "Indian despising" to support this argument. The ravaging of our wild stocks is the issue, stick to it. Venting about the tribes, their rights and their practices is one thing, racialy motivated sarcasm is another.
If this problem does, and should, get the attention of the press and some reporter finds their way to this board you can be certain that racism and bigotry will become the issue then, not saving wild fish.

After watching a bunch of corks bobbing in the Queet's yesterday I became reflective on this post. But I also thought of the damming of the Elwah, Columbia, the decimation of habitat in Puget Sound. What came to mind was I can,t stop reality but I can help the resource support catch and release after all who is really to blame!!! PEACE

Every time i go to Tokeland i see Semi trucks from Quinalt Tribe at Nelisons Cannery

Yes, i should NOT have used the word "indian despising" to make a case for us. We definetly have to leave out tribal B.S. Like the old school sane goes - United we stand, divided we fall...

I couldnt imagine how great it would be to get every sportsman out to Olympia or where- ever we would get our voices heard. IF just half of everybody that bought a liscense showed up we would be in "fat city"

well, guys...

Keep the ball rollin'

BW

p.s. Same could be said for the energy crisis. If half of everybody that uses electricity went up to the top of mount Rainier and took a "leak" we would have enough power to supply the whole west coast. And maybe the Omish.... (just kidding)

Just a note about what i was told by a Pacific Seafood salesperson. He does not sell downtown Seattle, so he could not give me specifics, but said that that is basically the only place that they sell wild steelhead, other than out of state. He did mention Canlis and Chandlers and said that Pike Place took much of the fish, for Seattle. He did not know much else. I am trying to maintain a neutral stance in his eyes. He did say that someone called, ranting and raving yesterday. I think that is good, but the ranting and raving part must stop, only basic facts. Simply call and express your disapproval, that is all. I will post a name and number to call tomorrow, the manager, who apparently deals directly with these sales. Lets just say that they are concerned, but as far as i am concerned, this battle has not really started. I have also contacted Chef's Collabrative 2000, a group, nation wide that promotes and supports sustainable agriculture, sustainable fish harvests and basic ecologically sound food production practices. They are in most major cities, and i hope will have some insight as to what we can do next.
Save our wild Steelhead!

Good job fava, you're truly an asset in the efforts to save wild fish. You name the time and place and I'm there. I'm sure some more fishermen out there are not all full of B.S and will join us. I also called Pacific Seafood and expressed my disapproval, but did not rant or rave. The lady I spoke with told me they also had to make a living. I stated that I was sure they would survive just fine without Wild Steelhead, if not they would have to learn, because these wild fish runs are disappearing quickly and the strong runs will have more pressure and they to will start to weaken.

And on the tribal netting issue I've never disputed the tribes right to fish, what I have a problem with is the new form of math they use to figure out the 50%.

I moved back to Seattle last year just in time to see the gillnet issue fail with Washington voters. What happened? I thought that would be a done deal in this state....

Fava: Nice detective work on Pacific Seafood. If you could, please post an address where we can send them letters. Might not be a bad idea to send a few opinion letters to the local newspapers as well.

Latest from Pacific:
Bob Obryant (not sure on the spelling), is the manager who would be the person to speak to, at least people will have a name to ask for. Here is a toll free # 888-305-8081or local 347-7994, Your best bet is to ask for Mr. Obryant, and if he will not take a call, then leave a message on his voice mail.
Their address for letters is Pacific Seafood Company 4520 107th SW, Mukilteo, WA98275. They also have a web page, try a search for it.
Please let them know how you feel. So far no luck on more restaurant names to avoid, I am afraid the list is a bit depressing.
Save our wild steelhead

A good thread. A couple Saturdays of focused protest at a popular place like Pike Place Market, that is direct but peaceful, and they might stop selling steelhead. Negative publicity works against them. Now, if you do this, and want to really f@#k it up, just toss in a few negative comments about Indian fishing. Then you lose; they win. In the Seattle area it is that simple. The majority of the population is very supportive of Indians and their treaty rights whether you believe it or not. The protest can only succeed if it is about steelhead and not who catches them or how.

The result of an effective protest, of course, won't stop the commercial netting. The fish wholesalers will just ship all of the commercially caught steelhead to the midwest or other markets.

In my opinion, the best idea in this thread is the one that deals with the Indians directly. I admit that I don't know exactly how to make it happen, but a more positive relationship with tribes would probably be an essential first step. If they are earning $0.70 a pound to catch steelhead, sound business practice wouldn't just scoff at an offer of $1.25 a pound to leave the fish in the river.

Tribal fishing economies are an obstacle to an easy solution, but that doesn't mean there is no solution. I think the key is to develop the pathway that directs the money to the individuals who would be foregoing direct fishing income. Even that shouldn't take rocket science. Each tribe has records indicating who fishes and how much they catch. Shouldn't be to hard to calculate an estimate of foregone catch by individuals.

A deal like this should be packaged to make it attractive to a tribe. That might be achieved by applying it to commercial catch only. Encourage the tribe to take its ceremonial and subsistance catch - verified, of course. Make it a fairly simple business proposition that results in higher fishing income than netting and selling steelhead provides. Indian fishing is about culture and tradition. Commercial fishing is about those and money. Respect both and perhaps a deal can be struck.

Oh, money. Where do we get the money. Two sources come to mind. A % of what we spend on hatchery steelhead could be diverted to a contract for this purpose (think advance planning). Another possibility: say we, via the state WDFW, have a contract with the xyz tribe. Would you be interested in buying a $30 or $50 or $75 special river permit to fish the xyz river? At this point it's just math, unless there is no market in this region for such a fishery. I'd bet there is.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

You're right on Salmo g.! We must bargain with the tribes to make them want to stop commercial sales of wild steelhead. Disrespecting the tribes will only serve to have a court order taunted in our face for the rest of our lives...or until wild steelhead is no more. It's a shame that the Pike St. Market fish mongers are selling wild steelhead but if it isn't them it'll be the Japanese or someone else (might be a good media opportunity though). We need to have a two-pronged approach of; making sale of steelhead socially unacceptable (like eating a carrier pigeon...extinct since early 1900's) while we pursue a system of reimbursing tribes not to commercially fish for wild steelhead (maybe all steelhead?).

Salmo g,
It would be great if we could give the Native Americans $1.25 a pound for not fishing but it won't happen I'm afraid. Why? Because it's a way of life for them to fish. Most don't have a 9 to 5 job that they commute to every day, this is their life and heritage. Would we as avid sportsmen stay off the rivers and not fish if they offered us a $1.25 a pound for what our last years punch card said we caught? No because we love to fish for Steelhead and love to be out on the river just as they do.

I see the only answer is give them the insentive to use fish traps where they can make $3 to 3.50 a pound for hatchery fish caught in an environmentally friendly way.
Their is a market for this type of fish the high end markets and resteraunts can advertise this fish as enviromentally caught and sell it a much larger profit than any fish they sell now.

This could be accomplished by federal funding for the traps, (they fund a lot of the gill nets now). Fish would have to be fin clipped to qualify and this would encourage that all hatchery fish State and Tribe clip fins.
I've been working in the past on getting info on how the supermarket and restraunt associations feel about this idea and it's not been a formal yes but they really like the idea. As for the Native Americans I have not formally talked to them as I do not have any formal paper work to present as of yet.

By netting with a communnitty fish trap for each river and tribe would ensure that they got thier 50% of hatchery fish and give everyone a better idea of what is really comming into the rivers as all wild fish could be counted.
I see capitalism here at its best by giving these fishermen a good profit for what they are entitled to and a chance to save wild Steelhead and Salmon. It is my hope to get some formal work done on this and present it to the WSC to evaluate in the future.

Remember the reason why the Native American will not use the fish trap now is that they would still get 70 cents a pound as the system is set up now. As you can see there is no insentive at all.
Latter
Steve

I really like the fish trap idea along with getting a better price for the cliped steelhead. It would be great if we could get a resturant ( upper end and high priced ) to push the hachery fish.
When I picked up my drift boat from Koffler they were making fish traps. I will look in to the price of one of them.
As to a protest ( NO more sales of wild fish)
one thing I know is we will need a permit from the city. This will get us coverage also.

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dank
Keep The Rivers Clean!

Right on, A permit is required for any kind of a demonstration. And getting the press/media involved could be a good thing; cheap publicity. During the 70's there were fish-ins to sway public opinion in behalf of the tribes treaty rights to fish. Then came Judge George Boldt.
As to paying the tribes not to fish, I dont think anyone is questioning their traditional right for subsistence fishing. What is at issue here is the commercial aspect of their fishery.
Even $1.25 per lb is ok, wouldnt break the back of the federal treasury, and since the treaties are federal, the funds should be, too. But the concept gets expensive with matching funds for enforcement, and matching funds for drug interdiction. Among the people Ive talked to, the concensus is that most of the individual profit from tribal fishing is spent for recreational substance abuse.
There are more issues at stake here than simply not fishing. And anything that is done has to be done in the spirit of a mutually agreeable / acceptable offering, with honor and dignity to the tribes and for the white immigrants. It will take reasoning and wisdom beyond my own capabilities, and beyond anything heretofore demonstrated in this society.
Where the real problem (as I see it)lies here is not so much among the domestic fisheries, tribal or white, but in the international high seas fishery where all species are indiscriminately killed and sent to the Asian markets, and who are not vested in any program to sustain the fishery. We feed them with our fish for free. That's where the US has to make a stand, and it wont be easy.
Alright, I'll get off my soapbox for now.

head hunter,
Nice post and I think your right about the high seas fish as far as our Salmon go. But I think our wild steelhead problem is a bit different and correct me if I'm wrong but Steelhead while in the ocean stay close to the shoreline from the time they enter the ocean till the time they return to the rivers. If that is true then we must look at their demise differently. Having talked with a good friend who used to gill net years ago he said that unless they were fishing the places like the Hood cannal with a narrow body of water they all most never picked up a Steelhead. He also mentioned that in the early 70's the Native americans were allowed to target Steelhead in the Sound and would set their gill nets right next to the shoreline. If this is true then our wild steelhead are a least out of danger from high seas netting but our salmon are not. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about Steelhead migration.

Haveing witnessed a few of the so called "Fishins" during the 70's by the Tribes.
I see no reason why a few Sportsman could not do the same thing,at least it would draw some public interest and media attention...might be somewhere to start...Os

I do certainly like all of the angles presented here, but would also like to clarify my angle. I would simply like to draw attention in a positive way to the simple fact that these fish are being caught and sold. Most people do not know. People and businesses have choices about what they buy and sell.
I do work in the restaurant business, my restaurant purchases over $100,000 in seafood a year. The seafood companies do care what i think and what people think, make enough of a stink and they will change, slowly. I will not buy net caught fish, that is my choice, the only sustainable fisheries at this point for salmon are strictly troll caught, which is hook and line, and a few terminal fisheries, like Youngs bay on the Columbia. What this leaves is farmed fish, which has many issues as well. Unfortunatly they do not even allow commercial troll salmon fishing in the sound.
As for the indians selling their fish elsewhere, they will try, do you suppose they have wonderful refridgeration? no, they do not even deliver the fish, they get picked up by the distributors. They are in between a rock and a hard place. Talk to the troll fishermen in Alaska, they get much better money for their troll caught fish now, they bleed them, ice them immediatly and some even market them themselves. The only problem is their are fewer fish for them to catch.
I think an effective approach at this point, as well as a demonstration would be letters, e - mail and phone calls to Pacific fish, Pike fish markets, restaurants, politicians, tribes, etcc... anyone that will listen, editorial sections in all our newspapers. I will continue to find out what i can about who sell these steelhead, and apply pressure where i can. I hope you all do the same, at least we can try to do something tangable while the debates continue.
Save our wild steelhead.

Fava,
I agree with you on getting people from buying wild steelhead. We can protest with fishins and call attention to our worthy cause. With enough public suport the distributor will stop buying the fish. This is well and good but the Native American is still going to net on a daily basis. What they do with the fish only they could tell you and last year we heard the Halibut stories. Believe me it's not a money issue with them as much as it's a rights or way of life issue. Tell me one thing if you lived on the reservation and had that river in your back yard where would you want to be on a daily basis. I know I'd be there fishing every day. The only problem is we taught them how to fish in the most deadly maner.
Let them fish but give them a reason to change their style of netting,(fish traps).
You work in a restraunt how much do you pay the middle man for Salmon? I bet it's a lot,
why not find a way to bypass the distributor and give the native american a good price for their share of the hatchery fish. I think it's the only way that wild fish will swim free.
Want you to know that I wish you sucsess on the fishins and I will be there too if they go off. But I just want you to know it will not solve the problem of Native Americans Gill netting.
Latter
Steve.

Interesting thread. One point that I haven't seen brought up is that until you get 100% mass marking of all hatchery fish, you can't tell if the Quinalts are selling wild fish or just unclipped brats.

I do know that you are far better off focusing on the business side than on the tribes. It will be much easier to convince the Chandler's of the world or Pacific Seafood not to buy/sell than it will to convince the tribes not to net. As Salmo G. said, if you start bashing the tribes, you lose. Like it or not, they have a right to fish.

Protest can make a difference though and I am happy to see the level of emotion and activism on this thread.

This issue was briefly discussed last night at a committee meeting of the Wild Steelhead Coalition and will be discussed more at next weeks board meeting. As an organization, there may be opportunities to protest which would not be open to individuals. Either way, if it impacts wild steelhead stocks, the WSC is interested.

Duggan Harman
WSC President

Sink Tip
You mention not pissing the Native Americans off. You shut down their market and they will be really pissed at the very people they need as allies and those allies are us the conservationists. No wonder they don't trust us, we conservationist are always trying to screw up their way of life, besides these folks do need the money. Someone mentioned earlier on this topic that the money is used for drugs and booze. Yes some do but most of this extra netting money is used to buy their kids shoes or a winter jacket, they aren't as rich as some folks make out.
It just does not make sense to cut of thier leagal market, give them their 50% of hatchery fish at a good price. If you don't those 50% hatchery fish will rot on the gravel bars and parking lots and with those hatchery fish will be many many wild native fish.
On the quinault situation. Any fish not clipped will not be eligable for sale under the enviromentally friendly fish program. So until that group decides that they need to start clipping their fish then let them try to sell unclipped fish for 70 cents a pound. Thats where fish protests would come in, by targetting those stores that are not selling fish from the program. But it would be my hope that if this program ever got off the ground that the quinaults would figure it out that they can get over 3 dollars a pound for the fish in the program and start clipping their fish.
Good luck with the WSC, You have the most intelligent and talented group of really serious steelhead fisherman I've met in a long time.

Here are some addresses and phone numbers for Pacific Seafood http://www.pacseafood.com/locations.asp

Let's keep the phone calls and letters, against the selling and distribution of wild steelhead, and not anti-tribe.


[This message has been edited by KORE (edited 01-28-2001).]