Buying eggs from gill-netted fish...ethical?

What is everyones opinion on this? I know it's legal but by buying these eggs is this supporting gillnetting? On a recent trip through the Columbia gorge near Cascade Locks I noticed that some of the tribal netters were offering eggs for sale. I like using eggs myself but would never do this and I think anyone calling themself a responsible sports anglers should never buy gill net eggs. Just my opinion though.
Stew

"There isnt anymore God Damn fish in our rivers!! Damn Indians killing all our fish!! Shoot 'em all!!! Oh by the way, I got a great deal on some eggs, $4 a pound, those Columbia River commercial guys are selling them dirt cheap and they are damn good eggs!!! WOOHOO!!! And kill all them river netting fish killing Indians!! Did I tell you??? I GOT EGGS!!!"

What some people will do for eggs!!

[ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: RPetzold ]

if you are using eggs, ( which i am not opposed to ) then you must have killed a fish to get the eggs. eggs are kinda messy and i prefer to use lures. i think the indians will continue to fish, even if no one buys eggs for bait.there is a huge market for eggs overseas. people like to eat those things.

I remember getting "jumped on" by quite a few folks when I offered to get eggs for those who needed them a few months ago. I bought 10 pounds for a few folks who will remain nameless. The gillnetters ended up getting paid 35 cents per pound for the fish they sold to my client, a fishbuyer, so they got $3.50 of my money. My client got the remaining $31.50. The benefit to them was minimal.

My eggs that I use came from fish that I caught, or eggs that I "egg whored" cleaning fish for other folks at the fish cleaning stations at Sekiu. I remember cleaning fish for one board member and his passnegers who forgot their knife.

Call me irresponsible if you want, but I was helping out fellow fishermen, which is a lot more than I can say of some of my critics. It seems that all they can do is to be critical of others. I have made many offers for fishing and hunting on this board. I have connected with 7 other PP members and am confident that they would say that I am a man of my word. I offer to take someone before I try to mooch trip, and I have had many offers that I hope to take advantage of in the future.

So with that said, take a look at all of a person's actions before you judge them, not just one particular action.

Andy

I remember that topic and you were jumped on by me and couple others but you actually recieved alot of support and was I flamed for flaming you.

To me, it seems that we are the first ones to *****, first ones to complain and the first ones to call for genocide but we are the last ones to act. If we really want to make a differance, lets not support the gillnetters even if we need the eggs or they are recieving very little in return.

It is the very principle of the situation...and the hypocrisy!!

[ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: RPetzold ]

I never bought any before but I once ate some that an indian girl brought to school in junior high. If I remember correctly we had an unusually large teacher and got extra credit for brining in food. It happened to be washington state history and we were studying indian foods. Kind of salty and not very good. Taste alot like they smell.

I'd rather buy them than the asians across seas..
Keith
How else can you put away 200 lbs a year..

I give a big thumbs down for purchasing gillnet caught eggs. It is my opinion that if you buy eggs from the gillnet fisherman you are indirectly supporting the use of gillnets, that is providing a market. Yes there will always be a market for roe over seas, but don't provide a market here in the states. Do what you want, but with not many options for preventing gillnetting, one must do what they can. And Boycotting gillnet caught fish or fish roe is one way, albeit small, to make a statement.

A lot of the eggs we get we catch, but we also get them from the Guide shop. They get their eggs from hatcheries after they butcher fish. Should those eggs go to waste??
Keith

If it is a byproduct and ABSOLUTELY does not contribute to more killing, I don't think there is anything wrong with buying it. You get what you need and they make some money.

I do make a statement. I NEVER buy fish at the store. I never order fish in a restaurant. I only eat fish that I catch. I do buy some prawns, scallops, and crab occasionally.

I also fly fish sometimes, cast hardware and bait fish. So do I offend flyfishers when I cast a spoon, or use bait because I am not a 100% flyfisherman? Do I care? Not really.

I do loans for folks who want to buy charter boats, dairy farmers and loggers. Am I going to have folks give me a bad time about that because of the trickle down effect that all of these industries on the salmon stocks? Last year I helped lend over $2.5 million to folks in these industries. I think that I had a hell of a lot more impact because of those activities when compared to giving $3.50 in direct benefits to the gillnetting industry.

Do you folks drink milk or consume milk products? Do you live in houses made of wood? Have you ever gone out on a charterboat or worked in that industry? How dare you! Just think of the effect that you had on the fish.

You want to talk about hypocrisy, fine. Just look in the mirror before you do.

That is a cop-out!!...Yes, if you stopped buying eggs from the gillnetters, they would not stop fishing but you are supporting them.

And besides you do not NEED eggs. If you need to catch fish so badly that you need support an industry that is a major factor in the demise in our wild salmonid runs then I suggest you hang up your rods, tear up your license and head down to the counter at Safeway.

I may be coming off as a pompous ass but my biggest problem with this whole situation is the Indian bashing. Look at the threads that have taken place on this board the past week...how many were there dedicated to bashing the Indians?? So why is it Okay for the white man to gillnet but not the Indians??? They are both raping the resource and putting these fish in serious danger of exctinction...once somebodies answer this question I will get off my high horse but untill then I will not let it go.

Fishing is not about catching!!!...if it was then you wouldn't be steelhead and salmon fishing. Why the Hell must you support an industry that is killing our fish at the rare they are???? Oh, thats right...you need the god damn eggs. I'm sorry...fish can not be caught unless you have eggs. Give me a break!!!!

I said it before and I'll even say it again...Would you rather have go fishless tomorrow because you do not have eggs or go fishless in twenty years because there are no fish to be caught?!?!?!

Go take up bass fishing!!!!

There is a big differnace between giving up on dairy products, forest products and electricty and not fishing eggs because you do not have any!!! It is black and white...unless for some reason fishing with sandshrimp, spoons, flies etc. etc. instead of eggs drastically changes your quality of living and your life style!!!

...or maybe I am missing something. Maybe eggs provide some sort of spirtual or sexual experience that I am just missing out on...maybe not fishing eggs does drastically changes one lifestyle?!?!!? Am I missing something!?!?!?

Yo Sparkey,

Are the "white men" netting streams where the fish are more concentrated. How many times have you seen fish laying in the bottom of a "white mans" boat for days? How many "white men" take their catch and just rip the guts out for the eggs? How many "white man" nets have you seen laying on the shore so every damn animal in the world can get entangled? Shall I go on????

So the white-men commercials are perfect?? and the Indians are evil??

They both exhibit waste and un needed practices that are detrimental to the fish...Puget Sound is covered with Ghost Nets that are still fishing years and years and years since they were set. Where did most of these nets originate from??? Us...the white-man.

I am not saying the Indians are perfect but come on, they both rape our resources.

Ryan,
I fish to catch and I will catch more fish with bait (#1 eggs, then shrimp, prawns, herring etc..) than with flies or hardware. I haven't heard you ***** about the herring runs that are declining in which feed our fish at sea..
Reality is they are netting for "fish", and the eggs are surplus.. Would you be happy if they only netted the bucks..
I don't want to support netting but reality is they do it, and I'll take any surplus fresh eggs that are available to the public.
By the way in what year did we have runs that are better than this last years return. Them gillnetters sure got them all didn't they...
No offense ryan...
Keith

THE INDIANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO NET!!! some people are just smart enough to spell damn indians and thats it.If you are mad dont blame the indians for their legal right, blame the people who passed the laws.dont start ignorant banter about killing anyone. People amaze me with their bigotry.

So Ryan what do you really feel deep down inside about the use of eggs or any bait for steelhead?

Gooose :p

I for one have no qualms about using bait for steelhead. I use eggs, prawns, sandshrimp, coon shrimp etc. I only stated it was my opinion and choice not to buy eggs from fish that were caught in "gillnets". Now that is my choice. I didn't say it had to be everyones choice. I for one have seen the gillnets in the rivers, seen the damage first hand, and I am totally against their use in the rivers, and in the salt, due to the unselective nature of the nets. Due to the current laws, and legal situations, there is not much one can about removing tribal nets or changing current fishing methods in the salt. So instead of just b!tching and complaining about the current netting situation, I choose to boycott any fish or fish product caught in the nets, and try to encourage family and friends to do the same. Again, I state this is my choice.

Tap, tap.....Tap, tap. FISH ON!

(seems like someone took the bait)

I have to vouch for Andy on this one. I met up with him for some deer hunting and he never mooched any eggs the entire hunt.

Seriously, does anyone really think that buying eggs is an issue? Flame me gently.

Dan,

I think that you are forgetting that you and Zach had to hold me back from running down to that stream and grabbing a hen or two for eggs.

We actually found a tributary of the Chehalis that was maybe three feet across and was full of wild silvers. We were about 7 miles from the main stem of the river. There was a part of the stream that had actually run over the roadway because of the excess rainfall and the silvers were zipping up the road. I don't ever remember see that many fish that far up before. We were about a mile or so from the headwaters of that particular stream.

Keith,

The anchovie and herring stocks are actually improving, but you are right in pointing out that they were very low. The anchovies are seeing the best improvement of the two. The ocean conditions over that past few years have been a boon to all of the oceanic species in our area.

Having Westport as part of my market area gives me a unique insight on the future fishing prospects as I get to talk with people actually involved in all aspects of the fishing industry, not just the armchair biologists. I think that I had posted in June of this year that one of my clients told me that 2001 was the best Troll King season opener in 20 years, and just what type of season did everyone have? I will continue to share my info with you folks as I find out about it. Good info, regardless of where it comes from is still good info.

Ryan,

I appreciate your enthusiasm and your focus on the issues as you see them. Keep on fighting the good fight, but be careful of the stance you take because you may turn some folks away from your cause. People can get turned off very quickly by overly emotional protests. Moderation may actually gain you more supporters.

Andy

[ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Dogfish ]

I'll stand by Ryan on this one.

Whether it is a by-product or not, I view buying eggs from gillnetted fish a vote of approval for the netting. It doesn't matter if it's $100 a pound or one cent ... you're providing a marketplace. It's as simple as that.

By no means do I stand by netting, and especially netting that includes native fish whether it's indians or whities. The simple fact is they will keep netting.
A great solution is to get eggs from hatcheries but you can't do that either. Why waste any part of the fish if it is netted and as I mentioned earlier why send the eggs over seas.
I put up as many eggs as I can legally and then the surplus to support my hobby has to come from somewhere.
No more bait, then no more fishing for me...

Listen, don't get started on the bait thing.. Next it will be bait bans and that's not right. I don't discriminate others for there chosen method of fishing. Enough said.
As far as the indian discussions see my signature below..

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: Perfect Drift ]

I must clarify one thing:

1)I am not against fishing with bait...as a matter of fact, I've got more fish this winter on eggs then anything else.

I've got so much more I want to say in regards to this issue but I feel I will begin to repeat myself plus it is late and sadly, I think this falling on deaf ears. As I sit here, I seriously believe I am missing something...I just do not get why any of you would do such a thing.

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: RPetzold ]

I am so dam tired of this $hit!!! The indians have the RIGHT to net! Give me a phuckin break!! This netting $hit is getting way out of hand and if some of you people cant see that then you are stupid.. BAN ALL NETS If we can get the timber industry cut back like has been done then there is no reason that we cant get netting at least cut back..Why the hell should the indians get to gill net rivers and I cant?BULL$HIT!! If you want to talk about discrimination as far as I see it the white male over 18 is the minority in this country now days...The law was passed by Judge Boldt who was "BEDDING" with an indian at the time he passed it..I get so dam tired of all these free hand out to people and other people coming into this country and gettin LOW intrest loans and the same for the idians and welfare and the phuckin government handouts..I pay through the nose in income tax to give it to someone else because they dont want to work or they say they were treated unfair in some way and need compensation!!I call BULL$HIT again...If netting is a ritual thing or what ever the hellthey call it, then get enough for your medicine man dance and STOP selling fish..
Just like rivers being off limits to us like the Quinalt.I call BULL$HIT again...can anyone of us own a river and keep people off of it NO!!! Then why in the hell should they be able to..Looks to me like maybe we should call this country..INDIAN OWNED STATES OF AMERICA..United my A$$ if it was there wouldnt be groups getting special treatmant..Seems to me they can call there own shots like they own the whole phuckin place!

We all need to come together and find some even ground here because this aint working..

well I guess I've stirred the pot enough.. I'm done..TM

That's part of the problem, TM. People B!tch and figure they've done their part. P!ssing and moaning is easy. Resolving the issue is far from easy, and the result is continued b!tching. Note I'm not complaining about the situation right now, because I don't know what the answer is. Boldt screwed the non-indians with his interpretation and it's a very difficult decision to overturn. It's the law, though, and until it's changed, you either live with it or subject yourself to the consequences. By the way, it's a lot easier to assess the health of a forest than an anadromous fish stock. Yes, I know it's more complex than just counting the trees, but you get the picture.

Gentlemen,
There are far worse things in this life that somebody could be doing then buying eggs from an already dead fish. Do I agree with the nets in the water? Nope I don't, but this is America, and in America we have the wonderful, incredible freedom to do what we want when we want to do it. As a Doctor there are many things I see almost everyday that I disagree with but still must take care of. Does that water me down, yes I imagine it does. I don't know anyone on this board but Ryan I can only picture you as an overzealous, arrogant, ignorant college kid. If you are something else then I am sorry, but I was one once also. That said I must say that in theory I agree with you, but then again I have never had the need to buy any eggs. I see many people buying eggs at the Sporting Goods stores. I can only imagine that these eggs were harvested from commercially caught fish, some if not all. Anyway to answer the question of ethics, in this case I don't believe it is ethics it is opinion and there is a big difference between the two.

Doc

Hey Sparky. Stick to your guns on this one. If there were a couple hundred thousand more like you, your wish might come true.Oh yea. you want to buy a cherry IMX 1082c for 250.00? It comes with a free G. Loomis hat.

Its sucks and is unfortunate but nets have been around longer than fishing poles and everybody has to make a living. I'd rather see nets in individual rivers than an ocean fishery that kills not knowing where the returns are going.
I'll fish a jig before I buy bait from a netter! Its almost as ethical as clubbing Natives.

Holy smokes fellas... I think we can all agree that netting, whether tribal or commercial is bad. Then why the hell would you support them by buying roe? Yeah, the fish is already dead, but the fact of the matter is somebody is making money from that dead fish.

With the exceptional runs we have been having, why would you need to go out and buy eggs? If you are having a hard time hooking fish, ask some of the guys in here, chances are somebody has a bunch of roe they will not beable to use. Another thing is, there is so many techniques out there that will take fish just as readily as eggs will. Throw a float n' jig, then go back with a spoon, maybe some raw prawn or sandies, chances are if they wont hit any of those setups they wont hit anything...

Right on TM!
Perhaps someday the Federal Courts will look at the crazed mans decision. All people should have equal rights.

I hope that some of Salmo G's solutions will come to be. Perhaps that would ease our pain.

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: GutZ ]

Since you are a doctor, I am assuming you are an elder man who has seen the good ole days of prolific fish runs come and go. And your age probally brings about pessimism and conversatism-as in no desire to change.

If it takes a bunch of overzealous, arrogant and ignorant college kids to bring about change and take the power away from the lazy, satisified with status-quo pessimisitc old men, then so BE IT!!

I refure to sit back and watch the last of our wild steelhead and salmon populations go the way that the majority of them have.

When I am your age, I do not want my periods of nostaglia to remind of the good 'ole days when there were actually steelhead and salmon to be caught.

That's true. But it's not the issue here. Fishdoc and some others are missing the point I think. In buying eggs from non-Indian and Indian gillnetters you are supporting their activities with both a vote and dollars. This creates more dead fish that you keep refereing to as inevitable dead fish. But as I've presented in other netting issue threads, I don't mind the Indians getting their Federal Court mandated 50% share of fish. But all of us mind them getting much more than that. Those issues are discussed in Salmo G.'s good 'Solutions' thread, and in one of my netting threads, so don't need repeating here. What I think a boycott of buying netted eggs does is send the message that a large part of the populace is against gillnets that take native fish. And it takes away the hypocritical image of sportsmen.

As for the eggs you see being bought at tackle shops and from bait dealers, they are a majority of excess eggs purchased from hatcheries. This money helps fund hatchery improvements. The comm. netters mostly sell the eggs to dealers of overseas markets for caviar. They get more money from those sales than from the flesh sales. The Indians sell eggs roadside to fishermen.

And I agree that properly rigged sandshrimp tails along with colored yarn and/or corkies are on the same general level of catching steelhead that eggs are. Close enough anyway. And there has been an over abundance of sport caught hatchery salmon and steelhead hens for having some eggs to use anyway. I also find it somewhat more sporting and fun to try different non bait lures to catch these fish. That's just how I fish. Might catch a few less, but it's sure fun to feel or see a hard bobber down when fishing with a jig or pink worm, for example. Lots of other very productive lures to use also. ... My 0.02 opinion

Ryan,

When you get old (older) you can always smoke a pipe and read the newspaper. It is fun!

Dogfish.

Without debating the issue, I want to say that I noticed and appreciate the way that you responded to Ryan with respect in your fourth post. In a similar situation I'm liable to bring out the big guns and start firing away, doing whatever it takes to be 'right' or at least not be made 'wrong'. Next thing I know it's a war.

Ron

Who needs eggs anyway? I catch all my fish on spinners and spoons! Eggs are too messy, and do you notice how those fish bite after you've thrown off that cluster you were using!

Just my $.02

Well, I'm not going to go too deep into this as I'm started to get flamed a bit.
I bite my lip everytime I see someone say that shrimp or prawns or spinners or spoons will do as good as eggs, ARE YOU NUTS!! Let's get down to the point, if you go fishing for scenery fine use anything.. I mean hell use a cigarette butt.. But I spend my time out there for scenery and catching fish and try to maximize in all situations, so getting to the point USE EGGS!
Keith

Simple question,simple answer,No.