Confused...Need explanation?

There seems to be a big problem with Tribal Fisherman and their nets. Am I correct in this assumption? So could someone or all of you explain your hatred.
Thank You All for Your Replys

Anglin'4Salmon

I don't have any issues with tribes. The only anger I personally feel is toward those who continually destroy habitat\pollute and overharvest (including by-catch casualties). A lot of tribal and commercial fishing activites are guilty of both practices it would seem. And a lot of these issues are overlooked by the average voter for whatever reason, and Big Money seems to have the goverment in it's pocket. Some folks are just too quick to jump on the (fill in th blank) bashing bandwagon to take out there misguided anger. A problem it seems that has always been present and unfortunately will continue to be...

Do you really want to go there?

I have no problems with the tribes my problem is with the nets in general whoever is fishing them. I would love to see a ban on all nets in this state. A sport caught fish brings in more revenue to the state than a net caught fish ever will. Look how the Elliott Bay fishery was raped by nets last year. The sportsman didnt even get close to there half. You know the old saying 10% of the fisherman get 90% of the fish. Thats pretty much what happened in Elliott Bay the net fisherman took most of the fish.

to Easy & josh

I think you should go there.You've plainly got some thing to say. So you should get it out in the open.

If it helps I was once a Tribal Net fisherman.

I think Easy is saying that we've had similar posts get out of hand in the past. If you want to see what others think do a search and see if you can find some facts in the posts.

This could get real ugly. A4S, let's just say that tribal gillnetters are allegedly responsible for the decimation of the wild steelhead on the Nisqually, and that there is ongoing contention that the tribes take more than their fair share of the fish. Furthermore, gill nets, regardless of who is using them, do not descriminate between hatchery fish and wild fish. Most of the folks on this board, and other boards, are pro CnR of wild fish. Gill nets kill everything-period. I would not push this topic too hard, because every time it comes up the flames get out of hand. Just my opinion.

Ok, you asked for it you got it.

I have no problem with the tribes themselves
I recognize their legal treaty rights to half of the harvestable fish.
However, I have a big problem with gillnets. Not, that I think the fish cares how it dies. Nets or hooks or whatever, but I think the extensive gillnetting on some of our streams in dramatically impacting the genetics of our fish.
My problem is that the tribes are the biggest users of gillents in this part of the state.

Look at the coho on the green (mostly hatchery) or even the skagit (mostly wild). They're dinky compared to fish from streams that are not heavily so heavily netted (ie just about anywhere in Alaska). There is a huge selective pressure to be small on these streams so as to better evade the nets.

I've caught lots of sexually mature jack coho in elliot bay under 14" the past few years.

This is clear evidence that the gillnetting is influencing fish size. This is bad for all fishers. I think we would all like the fish to be bigger.

If the tribes could be convinced to use other methods that did not select against larger fish, I think we would all benefit. I think traditional methods such as reef netting or weirs might be prefereable; These could potentially even allow selective fisheries. ANYTHING BUT GILLENTS PLEASE.

Geoduck

I think someday the tribes and the fishermen well have to band togather to keep fishing rights in general. But the netting 3/4 across the river from on bank, and the netting 3/4 across from the other bank 10 yards apart, is just taking advantage of the returns alittle to much, abaned nets!!, the tribes choose the days to fish and then some, Ive seen purse seiners 7 days a week for weeks out side the samish. The battles to close the hatcherys keeps limiting the areas to catch/keep a fish for the fishermen but the tribe net when and where they want...I understand its all part of the original treaty but things are changing and its time for the tribes to see that they are taking fish from there own grandkids way of life. I have heard and witnessed the "because we can" practice that I think turns fishermen off the most....I was very pro-indian prior to moving to washington,,,but now Im not so sure, I think the tualip tribe does well with its bubble fishery, but reports of the tribes netting for example the rivers during low water when it was closed for sport fishing is a good example of my soap box....I keep optomistic on the tribes seeing the light...DJ

it truly doesn't matter to me WHO is putting in & pulling out the nets, the fact is, with nets in the water, less (alot less) fish make it home to make baby fish

plus, our state economy would be much better off if, we made this state all it could be & it could easily be the "anadromous fish capitol of the world" we have the technology & most importantly WE HAVE THE WATER! Of course, more = more pressure but, I believe it would be worth it

the holocaust we are experiencing now is the tragic waste of all of this water, an ecomist would call it "economic rent" that is essentially the difference (a loss, of course) in what you are making now vs. what you would be making if you utilized your resources to their optimum, conservativelly, considering the last calc. by state said fishing brought 4 billion to the economy, the economic rent on all this wasted water is in the billions .......

finally, doesn't it suck seeing, standing by, and/or floating on all this crisp clean rushing water, knowing there's little out there in front of or under you BUT WATER??? & the icky feeling inside from knowng it doesn't HAVE TO be that way?????

Anglin cast the bait and you are all biting!!!

I'm steering clear of this lure....

Not sure if you can get this picture to open, but here is the problem I see with netting the rivers. This net was from bank to bank in the Duwamish last September.

Ya, we have explored this can of worms several times. I would suggest looking at old threads on this topic instead of starting a new one.

Ok, here's my problem with the nets. Yes, they do greatly downsize the amount of fish in the river, but that isn't my main problem. The way I see it, if the tribe feels like they should be able to net the rivers because it is the way their ancestors did it, then they should be doing eveything as it was once done. Where does the line get drawn as to what they do and don't get to do? Maybe I am out of line here, but he asked my opinion, and there is it.

I am Irish... I want free taters !!! Its my god givin right as an Irishmen

once?? Okay, since you asked, what about your view? I am curious why you started this thread.
-rbf

F4F's pic speaks loudly, I drive by the river constantly and see many nets laid like this.....sometimes 10 or 20 yards apart.
From The 1st ave bridge all the way up to the oxbow parking lot. Seems like plankton could not get through sometimes much less escapement goals.

A4S I have seen the devastation in many ecosystems around the Pacific and I would sure hate to see Puget Sound added to that list.
The one thing I have seen time and time again is the folks that run these nets, whether they are in the sound, Columbia, Off shore, Phillipines, Samoa, Borneo, Australia, Indonesia.....( the list is long, very long), these folks live for today and have no regard for the future. Wether it is lack of education or greed or just ambivilance(sic) the effect is the same. As I see it we are at or above sustainable harvest in so many fisheries around here and everywhere. I see the abuses that are a direct result of mismanagement by the very stewards that are supposed to take care of the resource. Look at the Columbia, several years ago(?) the salmon gillnet season was shutdown due to low returns, the State then opened Sturgeon up to the gillnetters(?) and in a very short time thousands of tons of sturgeon were harvested, The fishery could not handle it and now the sporties are taking the brunt of the cuts in opportunity. It seems like there are more stories like this than there are gallons of water in the state. I have no animosity toward the tribes, christ I am 1/4 nate myself if it matters, its just that there is such a poor track record of management for the good of the resource, especially by the tribes. We will either learn from the mistakes of others or we will have no fish.
Do not think that this cannot happen, it is happening over and over again all over the world. I know of many places that 10 yrs or more ago were thriving reefs, when the fish ran out for the gillnetters they began dragging. When that ran out they started using cyanide. And when the aqarium fish ran out they started blasting the reef with dynamite because they could sell the coral, now nothing is left...nothing...I remember going back to the Island I am thinking of in Thailand and the devastation was unbelivable.... I cant express it... I cried...five years before there was one of the most beutiful reefs I had seen, now there is nothing but flat sandy bottom....
This is a recipe that has been followed time and time again...the species and techniques change from place to place. In poor economies it happens faster. The result NEVER CHANGES!
So you see A4S my personal animosity is toward those who are responsible for this type of destruction...regardless of skin color and the nets are a very large and very visible part of the problem. I wish I could find the words to express it better and I really did not mean to get so heavy, when I step back the big picture hits a little close to home. I do not want to see it happen here...and it already has.......

Ten years ago I was dirt poor, a step away from being homeless.My Uncle offered for me to help him and learn from him.
Now I remember going with my dad when I was like 3 years of age or so, right before he passed away from acholism. After my dad died I had hardly any contact with my dad's side of the family. Ohh, Yeah I'm only 1/2 Native American.I don't know if that matters to any of you.But it means I didn't grow up with the rich culture of my family and my tribe.Now I had a chance to learn a little about net fishing, something my dad did and my tribe has done for a very long time.
Although the whats and the whys of the we used to fish have changed dramaticly.Only a handful still to it today,at least in my tribe.
when I was learning, I was real excited it was fun but it was also lots of hard work.Especially when its 20 degrees on the river at the time. I hung in there though and worked my tail off. I did it for about 2 years.I've seen the all the chum on the banks females cut open left to rot, males untouched left to rot. Nets weaved across the river, or one net stretched all the way across. I was disgusted with the poor decisions made by those couple of tribal fisherman.My family was never invovled in any of those incedents. I'm very proud to say.
But to say that tribal fisherman are responsible for the descimation of salmon is utterly ridiculous.There are many other people and chemicals that contribute to that than a handful of tribal nets.
There was one suggestion that I thought about putting forward to my tribe.And, that would be to pay off tribal fisherman for 1-2 years.Have them stop fishing altogether. Give them something of a Unemployment type paycheck.But then what about the commercial companies,ect. Who's going to deal with them. Because , it's going to take a concerted effort all the way round for it to have any impact at all.

On an ending note there is much to tell and much to learn.Next time your on a river and see a tribal fisherman talk to him. Share your views. Listen to them and about the struggles that they had gone through just to be able to do what they do.My goal here was not to make enemys, but to get both sides.

Thanks and sorry for all the uproar.

Inyteresting view from your side Anglin.I think you probably caught more than a few people off guard with your reply.Good post

Still think gill netting sucks though.Along with some of the stuff you mentioned and didnt mention that have also helped ruin fisheries all over.

A4S I just want to make sure that you know I do not blame all the problems on the tribes. Just their own. I also look very harshly on almost all commercial fishing, and fish farming has its problems too...

we need a salmon/steelhead summit meeting ....with california, oregon, washington, BC and
Alaska ... with commercial , tribal, sport, biologists, representatives and reps for all other impacted groups such as farmers and the timber industry(wich by the way has killed billions of fry thru dramatically increased flooding).. One point that everyone should remember is that damms kill more salmon every year than all tribal sport and commercial fishing combined!!! we need to get all nets out of our rivers no matter what color the skin the environmental terrorist has who is running the nets. we need to open up all our rivers to 100% of there original spawning grounds. The little goose damm on the snake cut off 2300 miles of spawning territory. all that aside... if you promise to help stop indian netting of wild fish for a few years, i will help stop white commercial from taking any wild fish for a few years until we can get our runs stabilized. One thing I learned as a lobbyist is that the government very deliberately tries to pit groups of competing interests against eachother. I watched them do that with the spotted owl issue. It had nothing to do with envoro's vs loggers. logging unemployment rose 15% durring those years but they cut 25% more trees than ever. we cannot fall for that. We need to stay focused on the real culprits and most of them are in washington dc.

Nice words angling4. I think you probably educated some people here better than anyone else could. I'd like to see no nets in the rivers because they reduce the number of fish anglers can catch and that get to the spanwing grounds. But nets are only a fishing tool that can be used appropriately or not. The tribes are an easy scapegoat for all the major reasons salmon and steelhead runs are going to hell in a bucket -- which is not to say they don't share the blame ...

Chappy.....environmental terrorist ???

I don't think there's any need for that.

Good post Anglin'. I realize that the nets are in no way the only problem with lack of fish. I think one reason that people dislike them so much, is because it happens much closer to us. I'm sure that if I lived where the commercial boats came in, i would probably complain about them as much as i do about nets. This is the reason why in my post, I pointed out that the effects on fish was not my main problem. I wanted to give you credit on what you said, but my opinion is still the same as before.

Why an "unemployment type of check??" How about an education and an opertunity to seek a job?? Thats what all other minority Americans have to do. In the year 2003 its a pretty lame deal that Native Americans are still being singled out the way they are. Its a form of racisim.

If they want to learn a profession the tribe offers them the possibilities to do so.But, its not the tribe's job too make them stop doing what they've always done.Fishing in the tribe is kinda like a family business.The substitute paychecks would be only availble to those fisherman who have done so(fish) with in the last 3-5 year. Not to all tribal members.
I am in no way a fan of the endangering of the salmon runs.But, I won't tell my people not to do what the Supreme Courts made legal for them to do a long time ago.Native american people fought very hard on getting those rights. I'm not going to suggest to them that they quit forever.
We have to find a common ground which will be fair for all the peoples who utilize this resource.

Why does it have to be the "tribe" that offers anything. Why should native americans be any different than any other american. Why should they live on reservations. Why should other americans foot the bill. Why not the same treatment as every other american??? Maybe in 1800's but now???

One good reason why ???

Your opening a whole different can of worms there.Grab a history book or two.Check out literature written by Native Americans or something that at least tells the whole truth.
Find out and educate yourself

Its not a different can of worms..

Why should Native Americans be the only ethnic group with rights above and beyond any other american.

When other ethnic groups get togther they are known as "gangs"..

I know the history.. its pretty sad.. pretty sad that we continue to single native americans out as special. They need to move forward, not back. You said you were confused and needed an explanation. So here it is.

Its indeed confusing and is so lame it can't be explained

A4S,
Could you please tell me which history book to look in where it shows native americans stripping eggs from salmon for export to Japan?? And leaving the fish to rot. I cant find it in any of my history books.

B-Runs last post hits exactly on what i was trying to get at. It's good to know that I am not the only one that feels that way

If our Forefathers would have had any inkling of Judge Boldts decision there would be no treaties as there would be no tribes.

There is no way the treaties were written to give half of any resource to one group. Judge Boldts decision is a travesty.

All men should have equal rights. The fact that the tribes have special rights above and beyond the common man will cause friction until the balance is restored.

What a history book it would be

Lewis & Clark

As we approched the coast we were greeted by a handsome race of peoples. They rushed out to greet us in strange metal boats with loud boxes on the backs which moved these boats with great speed. They offered us a native drink called Keystone light and asked if we cared to visit their casino !!!

O.K, now I think I'll stop. I do feel better however.

B-Run,

I don't know what to tell you.My views on this would probably just anger you further.What you suggest might happen one day but not for as long as there are different peoples with different cultures.
In case you forgot We're called Native American for a reason. ( NATIVE implies birth or origin in a place or region and may suggest compatibility with it <native tribal customs>. INDIGENOUS applies to species or races and adds to NATIVE the implication of not having been introduced from elsewhere) meaning we are the Indigenous people of this land we call America,Hence Native American.
You say 1800s like it wasn't very long ago.Have you ever heard of culture shock:(noun: a sense of confusion and uncertainty sometimes with feelings of anxiety that may affect people exposed to an alien culture or environment without adequate preparation). In case you forgot native peoples had to be reformed made civil.That meant not being aloud to be who we were. And if you know your history then you know all about Children being taken from thier families and forced into boarding schools told to forget our culture our language.I'm not even going to explain reservations to you.Do I really need to go on....I think not.
Well there you go most of what I think out in the open.Take from it what you will.But please go out there and read up about what went on during those times

Like I said, I know the history. And it was a long time ago. You want to make it sound like yesterday. You have never lived the life of an indian from back in the day. You don't even know any who did or have. You don't know life without cars, planes, or probably even T.V - How can I say that??? the fact your even alive says your not old enough.

African Americans were forced to come here from a very similar living condition as the native americans lived in " a long time ago".. what concessions have been made for them. Thats right "homey"... none.

America is a land of opertunity regardless of race. Fine, its great to be in a tribe. Thats really neat. Heritige is importaint. But why should the rest of the people in the U.S.A have to pay you for it. Do you really think you suffer from " culture shock" as you drive down the road in your car.

It does not make me angry, it makes me sad. Every time I am on a reservation I realize what a dis-service the goverment is doing native americans. Its total racisim.

In your earlier post you said we had to restore the balance.Go back to where the balance was lost and then tell me how it needs to be restored.
All that traversty happened as soon ago as the 1940s-1950s.My uncle told me about his days in the boarding schools and his struggles through all the violence for native fishing rights.Reverbrations are felt through out time.
I may not have been there. but, I can feel the pain of loss. That we sometimes feel like we may never recover from it.
So, you tell me where the balance should be restored.

So your unkle was in a boarding school 50-60 years ago and you can't go on with your life?? My family was repressed by the english for 100's of years ( I am Irish) and I am pretty sure I got over it.

I work with a guy who is native american. 100% SHO/BANNOCK. His name is Gary. We call him Gary, not "Gary the native american". He is a pretty good guy and I know that being singled out as special or different insults him.

Whats your answer??? you must have something in mind ?? What would you like to see happen ?? Do you think Native Americans should have even more rights ??

With that I will stop posting on this thread. I don't want to get kicked off this board because I really enjoy reading it and I get a lot of good information from it. Like a few much smarter guys said right at the start.. this horse has been beat to death. I do hope you get over your "culture shock and reverberations" and the what not.

A4S,
Im still waiting for the name of this history book. I did a search for "Native Americans Guide To Raping Mother Earth" but that came up with nothing.

I'm not native, but I have friends who are. And when your Grandma was beaten for speaking her native tongue, it doesn't seem so distant. I don't condone certain practices of some native fishermen, as well as some non-native fishermen, but I'd have to ask, have white people not raped the earth in far more devastating fashion? Angling4, as you can tell, this issue brings out the worst in otherwise sane people....

Why are questions such as, "Haven't white men done equally bad things in the past?" being asked? No offense to whoever wrote that. This shouldn't be an issue on the past or trying to make up for mistakes 100 years ago. The problem is in the present, and the solution is in the present and the future. The only history that needs to be looked at is the history of overfishing on the westcoast. It's happened from California to Alaska, and still continues today. I understand the importance of heritage and family, but my god! The net stretches all the way across the river and there's another one 20 yards away! That's insane, if I wanted to pass on my love for hunting to my children, I'd take them out and respect the bag limits and hunting seasons that are in effect at the time which we go. I'd do that because wildlife and fishes are a sustainable resource if managed properly. There's no need to go out and shoot 100 deer in order to get a kid hooked on hunting, and I don't understand why there's a need to put gillnets all the way across a river just to show a kid the way his ancestors used to fish and sustain themselves.
It's just completely asinine, people are taking a supreme court ruling from the past and exploiting the hell out of it. It's the same as buying a corvette, just because it can go 100+ miles an hour doesn't mean that it's safe or good for society as a whole to drive it like that. I see these nets as the same thing, just because a tribe is allowed to put nets in a river doesn't mean they have to cut off an entire run of fish. That'd would be like driving your corvette through a preschool and running over kids. You have the tool to do it, but that by NO means is a valid excuse to go and do it. Exactly the same as having the right to fish a river shouldn't be exploited into the right to push an entire run into extinction. Everyone needs to step back and look at the issue from a long term prospective. There are many conflicting view points, some want to teach their children the ways of their ancestors, some want to sell eggs to japan. No society should ever be treated as a whole like this. Some Americans want to bear arms to hunt for birds, other Americans want to bear arms to hold up liqour stores. Checks and balances are key to making any society function properly. The nets just don't have enough laws and regulations to keep them in balance, and they've gotten out of control. In the end, all anyone, native american, white, whatever, will have to look at is a river void of fish. What then? Everybody lost, and those natural runs will never come back. Never.

Man, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing wading back into this mess, but I just can't stand the misinformation that we all seem to labor under. Here are the facts - The US Govt. signed treaties with the tribes back in the 1800's. We wanted to move them off their land (not surprisingly they tended to live in the most desirable spots) and put them on reservations. The language of these treaties was somewhat imprecise which led to George Boldt's interpretation. Probably an unintended consequence of the treaty agreement, but there nonetheless. The Boldt decision has been upheld many times and like it or not, is the law of the land. Now, as for the fact that the Native Americans have special rights. Once again, possibly an unintended consequence, but they are in essence guaranteed these special rights by the treaties that were signed. And just to make it even more complex, treaties are held by our system as being the most difficult legal instrument to alter. It certainly requires the agreement of both parties in order to amend the treaty. Given the fact that the Native Americans have taken an admittedly bad result ( being moved from their home, losing a great deal of their heritage, boarding schools, etc, etc.) and turned it into a good result for them (1/2 the fish, casinos, cheap cigs, etc), we should be awfully careful what we wish for. Those nasty unintended consequences crop up from time to time. I seriously regret the policy of slavery for the African-American, I wish the Irish American was not discriminated against. In reality, those groups are not protected by a treaty signed in our name by the US Government. And guess what - we get to live with all the consequences, intended or not, of that action. I wish it were different, especially for the fishery resource, but as you know - wish in one hand and [Bleeeeep!] in the other - see which one fills up first.

Are we almost done here? <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" />

parden my asking, but whats usual and custom about nylon nets and motor boats? and whoever said the river netters are not responsible for the demise of the fish is smoking crack! Just after the boldt decision the natives totally wiped out several runs of native fish in many many of the smaller rivers I fish that have since been re seeded mostly with green river fish which are now ridiculously called native fish in those rivers.

Just another thought,

Isnt special rights for Indians off the reservation government sponsered racism and discrimination. And so what if this subject has been beet to death in the past, there is some new guys out here that want to beet it some more.

Beets taste best with butter and pepper.. or maybe pickled. Hows that !!

Angling for Salmon,

minor note: Your quote is kinda depressing..... <img border="0" alt="[eat]" title="" src="graemlins/eat.gif" />

Good Fishing, Darin

A4S keeps casting and some of you keep biting.... He's having a really good day fishing at your blood pressures expense!!

I think he pulled up anchor and moved on to a better hole.

Earlier I could not reply. Problem w/web browser. So, I had started a new topic,"re: confused...need explanation".
I'm done with this subject and i said all that needed to be said. So I'll copy what I said there, here.
"Sorry I didn't mean to start a whole new thread,My web browser is having issues.
This post was about tribal fisherman and ended up being about tribal rights.This will be my last post on this subject.
I once again apologize for bringing up a very sensitive subject.I hold no ill feelings toward anyone or too the way the feel."
Anglin'4salmon

Really I think that this has been one of the more well mannered debates on this subject. It's a topic of concern for many, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be debated. Everyone looks for that one answer that will strike a divine balance between two sides, but at the same time we're scared to talk about it. How can we ever expect to find the answers to problems if their very subjects are considered taboo on the forum? Apathy has become a major issue of the times, everyone complains about fish and wildlife, but only half the people write letters or attend meetings. People complain about the president, but only half of them voted. I think Bob has created a golden opportunity through this board, just making people aware of the issues is half the battle, and this is a perfect environment for debate, some of which will hopefully lead to actions and an eventual change for the better.

A4S
Do you think you can get the tribe to hunt for seal,sea lions like they did the grey whale. I would even run interference for them like the coast guard, I wouldnt even mind running over a tree hugging jet skier. Just trying to get a smile...I liked your post and I agree that the average fisherman can see the nets but he might not be able to see the polution/chemicals
in the water. But Like I said I was pro-tribe prior to moving to washington and I have see this "because we can" thing pushed to the limit. I grew up with a few tribal friends and have 2 uncles that married into my family and I was taught from a young age hunting/fishing. My view of the elders was they were the ultimate in sportsmen, they only took what they needed, and the pride of the hunt and the pride of the fact that the animal deemed the hunter worthey to lay down his life stand in my memory. not lets rape the eggs out of the hens and feed the gulls, or lets shoot that big bull take the head/horns and sell the mount to the Out Back Steak house, or lets shoot all the elk on mount baker. or lets tke twice the limit that the sportsmen can take on the snow greese. Take what you need nothing more...DJ

"environmental terrorist" is not a term directed at the indigenouse. it is a term used to unfairly describe radical environmentalists and now the term is bieng used to describe those who are raping our resources. 99.9% of environmental terrorists in america are white but that does not mean pulling your punches to not offend netters who are netting like the photo above. The white jackass companies in the duwamish that have made it deadly to eat the fish in the area are enviro-terrorists as well. I am no indian hater. I have more indian friends(yes they want to be called indian) including sherman alexie, than most people have ever seen on tv. I also went to the largest indian college in the country and I have, unlike most, seen with my own eyes the devestation, poverty and despair heaped on these people. the way america treated the natives, (15 million slaughtered) is surely going to come back to haunt this country. But it is too much to watch white society convince the natives that raping our resources, is the way to fit in culturally and it is just as disgusting to see indians buy into it. i would rather see more casinos, hell... legalize marijuana on the reservations and tax it. just do anything to get a step ahead of the BIA and create some economic independance. or just continue to be the federal governments little side-kick and help them to overharvest ourselves right into extinction. Yes I believe the federal govt has set it up so that white people still eat all the fish but indians take the fall for it. 0f course when they are done with you, when the fat cats have all there money and all the fish are gone, they will discard the natives like a rotten chum. The native nations should all get together and say to the feds. "you know what, your harvest guidelines will end all fishing as we know it before our seventh generation, we are smarter than you... and we will be making our own much more conservative regulations to protect this resource for our grandkids" Now wouldnt that put it to the feds? Reservations have incredible, unlimited potential. The feds do not want you to realize it! look how hard they fought casinos! use the silver lining (albiet small) of these reservations to create economic independance, or when the fish run out, its back to comidity cheese! JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A RIGHT.... DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT

........wonder how OJ's search for the "real killer" is going......

Did you ever notice that the tribes use the word native people alot but seldom use the word conquered people...do you really think the treatys were signed due to a stalemate of somekind...its time to join the human race your not any different...DJ