Fresh bait vs plugs/hoochies

Just a question for all you saltwater guys. Which method do you prefer and why?

fresh bait or artificial?

I strickly mooch, so I've always use fresh. Frozen on the years when it's scarce and I won't use darts unless the bait runs out or watching others hitting fish on them. <img border="0" alt="[Goldfish]" title="" src="graemlins/goldfish.gif" />

Artificials are my choice. Either hoochies or spoons.

Artificials are not messy, last longer, don't attract nuisance fish as often, and they are just as productive as fresh bait.

Since I troll most of the time I prefer to use artificials which will mostly be flies behind a hotspot flasher and Plugs. I've moved away from baits over the years because I've found I dont need them and because it's been less hassle not using them.(no stinking up the boat,no having to buy bait, no having bait tear off and more important no dogfish!) The only time I'll use bait is silver fishing and then I'll only use a herring strip(mostly to give the hoochies some spin)

About 99.9% of my saltwater fishing is mooching so I will have to say fresh bait, herring is my bait of choice.

i do alot of trolling, so i use coyote spoons, coho killers, all behind a hot shot flasher. Or if there is alot of bait in the water i will use herring. the fresher the better.

First off, I will never argue the success of bait for moochers...

Trollers... Some folks use nothing but bait.
This is their speciality... I will never knock a bait fisherman for he has the odds with him. However, there are times and places for bait. In the sound, I feel you will be more consisent (key word to support my comments) by using artificals. Here's why...

1) Our main target for the majority of the year is blackmouth. A blackmouth's diet consists of 60% sand lance and 40% herring, smelt, squid, and shrimp (shrimp being the lowest of factors). What if salmon are keying in on sand lance or smelt and not herring? How about squid?

Kings and Silvers are seasonal... this would be a great time for bait.. However, for Silvers, I like a spoon or spinner and 2oz of lead behind the boat. If I get a hit and didn't hook-up, I still have a lure in the water. Maybe a different fish in the school will hit.

2) Most of the fresh herring you buy is not always the same size as what is available to Mr. Salmon. Sometimes, the marina will have that bait for weeks at a time in the holding pen(s). Now you have 6-7 inch herring for bait and the whole bay is full of 3 inch herring... With an artificial, I can accurately "size up" the bait.

3) Artificials can be modified to make additional sounds, movements or both. Only with the help of the e-Chip can you add additional sound to a herring. I add a colorado blade to all spoons and sometimes cheaters or spin n' glo to hootchies.. Every style and size of spoon I own has an unique bend or modification.

Ever had bad or no action from a flasher because of the weight/force of a bait? You might not know you've have had that, but it happens. Especially if the bait is cocked or too large.

4) Most importantly.... I can troll a heck of a lot longer, deeper and faster with an artificial than bait. Bait requires constant checking (usually every 15 minutes) and my gear can stay down 25-30 minutes before I have to bring it up and recharge the glo and Smelly Jelly. This gives me time to cover more water and concentrate on structure when working the bottom. If you have a manual DR... that is a heck of a lot of work to boot- especially at 150'+! Don't forget to check your bait after those little "tap-tap-taps." Keep in mind the dawgs and ground fish love herring too. Cover the water as fast as possible. Don't wait for the salmon to come to you, find them.

I personally don't like to waste time.. Bait causes too much wasted time. It has to be cut just right, tested before lowering, it's messy, needs to be checked al ot, etc. The hook setup is not conducive to hooking fish consistently either. Beyond popular belief, Mr. Salmon is going to swat your bait from behind 80% more of the time than the head. In a sense, your upper hook is only 20% effective. Probably closer to 10% since the bend is partial blocked with the bait. I like both hooks tied close together hanging out the back. With flasher rotation and he breathes on the lure- I have him!

Here's my take on effectiveness:

a) A spoon is probably the greatest of artificials. They come in all sizes and shapes that provide good representation of bait in the sound. Their action is second to none. They can be modified make more sound or action. They can be trolled slow or fast. The hook placement is in the ideal spot- behind the bait.
b) Hootchies work great when the size of the artificial has to be close to the natural. You can cut to length. Leaders/hooks must be modified for proper placement and action.
c) Plugs are a good searching lure when there is a lot of bait in the water or for fishing Fall Kings. Their only down falls are they need to be trolled faster than normal to impart correct action and hook placement- which can be 25-40 degrees off center from the bait (depending on the plug).


Just my .02 cents....

downriggin,
Do you think that chinook are noctornal feeders?

I ask this from experiances fishing the saltchuck around here in dyes inlet and the washington narrows..Years ago I learned that if I caught the tide just just switching and going out at day break,I could catch 10-12lb blackmouth.I catch these fish during the winter,from the rocks underneath the waren avenue bridge in bremerton.The water is not 25 feet deep!

My method is to cast cutplug herring,like I was spoon fishing a river.Basicly a quarter cast.I Just let the current spin the bait and swing it untill it was in to close.

Being as I have never had down riggers,I have always mootched for the jarstad kings.After I learned about this pocket blackmouth fishery,I started leaving for the fall kings a couple of hours before daylight from evergreen in b-town.I would quietly motor out around mannete and I would prowl the shore line from the gazebo to Illahee.I would use my fish finder to find bait.

Most of the time I would not need my sonar as You could here the kings feeding on bait balls they had shoved up into ten feet of water!Iused to,once again cast cut plug herring,maybe a half once of weight,and slay fish.Some mornings I coulld have seven-ten fish on in the first hour before-during daybreak.

Within the first hour of daylight everything would go quiet and I would have to prowl the depths looking for fish.

Just food for thought.

I troll 100% of the time and for blackmouth I will use artificials or bait. But when Im targeting fall chinook I only use bait trolled real slow.

I will use both bait and hardware. the hardeware can be very effective most of the time and is easy to change your set up if things get slow. But it is hard to beat a fresh cut plug without a flasher 25ft down off a down rigger for those ocean run silvers. Nothing between you and the fish but alittle line. I will also run one rigger with bait and one with hardware just to see which is the hot bite that day. I try to find what will catch fish on that particular day and go with it.

To me its pretty simple. You'll catch more fish on artificials with less hassle, but you may catch bigger fish with fresh bait.

When I started trolling the Sound a few years ago I was pretty much trolling Herring all the time. Now after fishing with, and learning from some of the guys around here that have fished the Sound for several years, like Downriggin' and Seacat, I personally run more Hardware than bait. BUT... I usually have bait with me at the ready if the hardware isn't producing. Last year was the first year that went primarily to hardware and my number one producer was a green Grand Slam Bucktail (boated 18 summer kings off the bucktail last August).

About trolling bait I will add this, and this is only my personal opinion. I will never troll a plug cut herring off a downrigger behind a flasher, I will always use a Rhys Davis Anchovy or minnow Teaser. Why? You can always change your spin by changing the bend and your herring will last longer in the hood than when plug cut. But like I said, that is just my opinion.

I have also found the Grand Slam Bucktail to be the most effective lure for trolling. I outfished my buddy last summer in the sound with my "flys" (that's what I call then so as to not fully disclose what I am using) wile he was messing around with different spoons, plastic hochies, and herring. They imitate a diverse range of salmon food and hold up well to abuse. If you don’t already know about them and don’t have any in your salmon arsenal you should. http://www.grandslambucktails.com/

Dang it Ums & waderburps ya didnt have to tell them

Sorry Chaser, didn't mean to give away the secret I meant to say....they don't work worth a darn and you should never use them!!!!

Seriously, Chaser do you ever use any orther color than the green? I was wondering if the Blue would be a better one to run shallower for the Silvers later in the summer?

The greens have been too hot for me to want to go experiment with the blues yet. Have had fair success with blue and white Trophy Flasher flies. For silvers I prefer to use an apple core needlefish squid with a herring strip attached so that it makes the squid spin(the faster the better it works) behind a red 11" hotspot One of my regular partners has had excellent succes with a blue backed silver horde plug for silvers.

I tried a blue grand slam bucktail (tackle shop was out of green) last summer and it didn't catch much. I'm going to have to buy a green one. The green / glow hoochie with a twinkle skirt, baited works for me. If I may ask, are you guys using the herring pattern or the candlefish or does it matter?

It's funny how the green herring ones sell out of the tackle shop. Better stock up before the summer rush.

ltlCLEO,

I firmly believe that Blackmouth/Chinook (pretty much all fish) are nocturnal feeders.
Two reasons... (1) bait generally will be found near the surface or shallower waters during the evening hours feeding on zooplanton. Salmon in turn, are less likely to fall to predation under darkness. They feel comfortable feeding shallower. (2) The 60% sand lance diet.. Sand lance will burrow at night to rest and avoid predation. Funny how Mr. Blackmouth know exactly where they are at...

In addition to the tides, it is a good idea to know the illumination of the moon (weather dependent-clear skies). Just my experience shows that more illumination means slower fishing. Vice vesra for overcast nights/days. Bait fish make one heck of a silhouette under clear skies...

Blackmouth are feeding machines- 24/7. The trick is finding them.

Um and Chaser,
I have had success w/ the blue and larger fish seem to like the larger (6 in.) GSB's, but if you catch them with greens why switch, i just use what ever is tied up.

NEN

I have thought of buying some GSB's but I have never seen any pre-tied. I assume 50# test leader would be best. What size hooks do you use?

I would have to agree with you on the illumination at night too.Thought I was the only one.

I have also seen large blackmouth chasing the candle fish neerly up on the shore in tracyton.Schools of them,running through with there mouth open.Talk about making your heart beat!Probably witnessed this ten times over the years.Never could catch one though I think it had more to do with being in such a state of panick that I would forgett how to function,just shake!

Fishen1 I use either 2/0 - 3/0 or 3/0 - 4/0 and 40# maxima green leader. Boy, those flys get some vicious takedowns!

Thanks chaser!

I saw some new jigs yesterday at the store. they look like herring/anchovie one direction and a squid the other direction. has anyone used these? if so did they work well?

I have never been able to find GSB's anyone have word on a shop that has a good selection?

I was looking at them in the Cabelas catolog last night. The salmon steelhead catolog.

SkyGuy,
I get my GSB's at Sportco in Fife.

http://www.grandslambucktails.com/

Just for fun check these out . . .
50 different hootchy colors

Rhy\'s Davis Teaser Heads

I am gonna need a higher limit on my credit card!

Chappy, are thoose jigs made by yozurri or some name like that. If so i've seen them, they look kinda funky. Havent used any but i'm sure they work, at least as good as a buzz bomb.

JR,

Save some money and tie your own GSBs...

Q-Tip for a tube
Glow in the dark Krystal Flash (full) surrounding the tube
White (or polar bear) Fish Hair of the top
Peacock Krystal over Fish Hair
Prism eyes...epoxy.
To get the shape of the head, lift up top wings at a 45 degress angle, place a drop of super glue at the head and let dry. Use 2 coats of epoxy. First one as a filler, second coat over the eyes....

That should save at least 3 bones....

Teds Sporting Goods in Lynnwood also carries them

The Canadians got me hooked on Teaser heads and bait. You can troll a herring or anchovy in a helmet for a long time, doesn't get blown out like a plug cut.

Anyone else in the sound using these?