Find out what state employees make-WDFW

I would find it offensive if someone made such an inquiry about me, so I'll pass, thanks.

Its public information.

Anyone working for the state a city or county or federal government for that matter should know that their wage is public information.

You say;" I would find it offensive if someone made such an inquiry about me, so I'll pass, thanks."

Well, just out of curiosity, if you worked for the public and the public is the one who is paying your salary, why would you think that it would be so "offensive"?

I can understand you feeling that way if you worked for a "private party" or company but when you work for the public, it kind of means it's i.e. "public" information and not private.

Why would a person want to hide what they are making, if they are being paid by the public funds?

How many times have people on this board complained about WDFW not having enough money to pay there people. Now everyone can see exactly what the WDFW people are being paid and make up their own minds. It's all public record information. That's why they call it "public" and not private information. These people work for all of us, so we are entitled to see what we are paying them for there services.

I just don't understand why public jobs salaries should be kept a big secret!


Cowlitzfisherman

CFM-
Enlighten Yourself

Thanks CFM

The wife and I found it interesting what we're paying these guys.

Thanks CFM for the link
I have always wondered where my state tax dollars went
The question now is, are we getting good value for our tax dollars?
If our roads are any indication,I think we are getting the Short end of the stick.

2003 State of Washington Commission on Salaries of Elected Officials List, Job Title and Salary
January 25, 2003 Personnel Detail
Comm on Salaries Elected Officials (2003, 2 employees)

Name Job Title Salary(monthly or hourly)
PINERO, TAMARA SECRETARY SR 1074
SAYER, CAROL EXEC DIRECTOR 5685


So it cost $6759 a month to maintain that website... and thats just the elected ones... maybe .05% listed on that list... Thats called Bang for the FV(k!n buck!
Cool site Cow buddy...

interesting info...

nice to know for the most part the salaries are not way over the scale of the private sector....

Even though my name is on the list, I have mixed feelings about seeing this stuff on the net. Mostly because it doesn't tell the whole story. For instance on the saturday after the 4th of july we had a family get together and my father in law made a comment about some DOT employees working on a saturday. At first he was a little riled about it, but I couldn't figure out why. Then he mentioned that for a state with budget problems why are we paying people time and a half to work on saturday.

Bingo! Now I know why he had a problem with it. Then I had to explain that most state employees aren't paid overtime. In WDFW, if we work more than 40 hours in a week we get what's called comp time (time and a half) or exchange time (one to one) depending on your position. This is time we get to take off later when things are slower.

I can go to work saturday at 6am and work 40 straight hours and all I get is 40 hours straight time. My father in law couldn't believe we don't get any overtime. He was telling me before he retired he got time and a half for any hours over 8 in a day and time and a half for any time worked between 6pm and 8am. They even got paid meals after working so many hours (can't remember how many). Since then I've started asking friends and relatives how it works at their job and virtually all of them get paid time and a half for anything over an 8 hour day.

While I make a decent living I have no reason to complain, but I've been offered jobs in the private sector and the money and benefits were much better than what I make working for WDFW.

Cowlitzfisherman-

I meant to address your comments about why public employees salaries should be available to the public. My personal feeling is that what I make is none of your's or anyone else's business. I'm no different than a lot of folks in the private sector that don't want their salary information made public. What I do think should be readily accessable is what is being paid out in salaries vs goods and services and any other spending category. If you're really interested in what a state employee makes, all you have to do is go to the dept of personnels website and you can see the salary range for a given job class. Ultimately why does anyone need to know exactly what I make?

Please, BornToFish....... Don't make me puke on my keyboard and offer you a hanky to wipe your tear strained eyes..... Give me a break!

I would much rather have paid time off (comp time) that is not included in your vacation or sick time.... You then do not have to fork 50% of it over to Uncle Sam..... If I work 20 hours overtime in a 2 week period, they take so much that I get only $100.00 more than a regular check. That is why I refuse OT nearly all the time (Unless the Hospital is in a REAL bind). It is just not worth it. My ex-wifes husband (we are good friends) works for Oregon DEQ and he had so much comp time he had to take 5 weeks off (Paid) and still had 5 weeks vacation coming..... If he doesnt use his vacation, he cash's it out and he thinks "Its a real sweet deal"....... Hard to feel sorry for any Gov't worker. If a company used as many people on a job as the Gov't, they would be bankrupt in no time.... Gov't is probably the least productive of any "business" in this country.

I feel better now.... Just try working in the Healthcare field if you want something to whine about... I have some of the worst healthcare benefits of any working group.. Go figure that one. I wont even start on your benefits as a state worker....

MC

My pay looks just as sad on that site as it does on my checks. I'm making a little more now than I was when that was published, but it still ain't much.
The overtime scale depends on which entity you work for. We can take comp time or time and a half for our overtime.
The information given would be just as useful if it gave the pay scale for each position without giving individuals' names.

Not the way I was raised either....thank god.

Born to fish and others.
Because we the public pay your wages.And in a sense are your boss.We have a right to know what you make.
If the money and bennies are better in another job why not take it?Could it have to do with retirement bennies? Just curious.

Born to fish

You said;" If you're really interested in what a state employee makes, all you have to do is go to the dept of personnels website and you can see the salary range for a given job class. Ultimately why does anyone need to know exactly what I make?

I wonder how many state employees are named" Born to fish"? I am still looking through the list to find out how much "Born to fish" makes but I still haven't located that name yet!!

You get what you pay for.

Employers be it private industry, the federal government, state, or self employment opportunities are in competition for the most capable people.

In the long run, if WDFW pays better including benefits, vacation, etc. they will get folks that do a better job of managing fish and wildlife resources. Pay less and the most competent will take better paying jobs with the federal government or private sector.

To me, the salaries and benefits for the WDFW employees seem about right.

btf I have to call b.s. on your post sayin "most employees" do not get o.t., yes I wouldn't doubt there are dept.s that "work for free" but the dot they have many times worked on the holiday at triple time so plz do not try to b.s. Hell I work 10 of the 11 holidays a year and do not get the kind of comp. that state workers do. it's all by choice. I know a guy in the signal dept. that volunteers to sit in his office on the fourth and leaves early but makes more then most people do in a week, so ya make thier wage public

Bentpole-

It was my understanding that all state offices functioned much the same and I obviously made an assumption that was incorrect. When I've worked holidays in the past, it was voluntary and straight time no leaving early. If we were needed to work for 8 hours we got 8 hours pay and if we were needed to work for 2 hours we got 2 hours pay. We worked as long as we were needed and sent home and paid for no more and no less. This has been my experience and it sounds like I've been lumping a lot of others in that same category when I shouldn't have.

I apologize if folks thought I was trying mislead them as that was not my intention.

Ok Cowlitz-

I'm not sure why you had a hard time finding me, I went back and looked and found my name right away:D I cut and pasted the section so you could see where I was at. You are right though, I couldn't find anyone with the same name as me.

Fish, Anadromous C WMS 1 - 4950
Sinker, Boat L Biologist 2 - 2814
Fish, Born T Biologist 3 - 4216
Feeder, Bottom J Biologist 1 - $10

Just to give folks an idea where I fit in the scheme of things and to promote fair comparisons, I would probably be characterized as upper end journymen level. In another field, I'd probably be similar to a journey level machinst, carpenter or welder with many years of experience and responsible for supervising subordinates.

How come the smilie thing didn't work?

I am 100% with Born To Fish. Just bacause our police, firemen, game wardens etc. are public employees, there is no reason violate their privacy by listing names and salary. It should be enough to be able to know what a given position pays, but not the exact amount paid to a given person.

There are enough drawbacks to WDFW jobs, like idiots blaming lack of fish on them, loudmouths complaining if they do, or do not give out tickets etc. The pay is too low to compensate for jerks always loking for something to complain about.

Cowlitz-

Thanks. Ends are meeting fine (most of the time) I just wish there was more like 30 hours in a day

Cowlitz, since you seem convinced your tax dollars are supporting the entire WDFW as well as the rest of public works in the state, would you post your tax return so we can all see just how much you are contributing?

What a low class thread this is.

Damn!

Another state employee is pi$$ed off again!


Cowlitzfisherman

Actually I'm a business owner Cowlitz. So the business I started pays taxes, and the jobs resulting also pay taxes. But I'm sure you know how that works. Now how about that tax return, eh?

Do you think that you got the gonads to post your total complete tax returns on this site?

I got the gonads to do so, but I'll bet you don't!

My total income is less then $15,000, so I say put up or shut up your big mouth!

and on that , I still have to pay taxes!!!

Cowlitzfisherman

I didn't think so.

Most likely while I was out fighting big business companies i.e., Tacoma Power for last five years of my life, you were rolling in big bucks. I guess it all depends on if you walk the talk, or you want to make big money! I am still waiting to see your tax returns!

And yes, I do still run a small business, but it's for all the fishermen best interest. Can you claim to be doing the same?


Cowlitzfisherman

I'm a government (city) employee here in Washinton and it was brought to our attention months ago that this same web site has all our salaries listed. At first I was disturbed, then realized everything I do at work, being payed by tax payers, is public. This includes email, letters, timecards, etc... They have a right to know where their dollars go. I agree with a previous post that names aren't necessary and they should just list jobs or job categories. But we are told in advance that EVERYTHING is public knowledge!!

I wonder CFM do you want to post the salaries of police, teachers and firemen. They too are public employees.

Or how about posting the WFDW employee's leave records, performance reports, sick leave, on the job injuries reports. Should all public employees lose their privacy as a requirement for employment?

I know for a fact that the entrance requirements for a game warden are very tough. THey select only the best of the best., then ask them to put in long hours, put up with illinformed loudmouths and get by on a barebones budget. I salute them. I wish we could afford to pay them more and to hire more of them.

I find that most folks are paid what they can demand based upon education, work history, personality and other related factors. In other words most of us get what we deserve.

CFM: If you make as little as you say, our taxes probably don't pay for much, maybe a new road sign, or something like that. It shoudln't be a real big concern. Cheer up, maybe your taxes went to something you really like, such as the EPA.

Your sad old argument quoted above has been the mantra of those who hate paying a fair amount to any sort of Government worker for at least 30 years. What you may not grasp is that many public employees, including cops, teachers, and firemen, do their jobs because they love them, not simply for the remuneration. The fact that schoolteachers don't leave in droves is love of teaching, not the "huge" salary we pay teachers. And no, I am not a teacher, nor am I planning on responding to this thread again. As a preious poster said, this is a really low class thread.

State workers in general are a joke. Half the work for twice the pay. When you drive through a state construction site more often than not they are standing there twidling their thumbs instead of working. Yep that's my money well spent.

Atleast now, thanks to cfm, I know just how much money I'm wasting.

You boys that work for the state don't bother crying back to me on this thread cause all I'll hear is blah blah blah blah.

I have several buddies that work for the state and they'll all agree to what I said. But as long as they're getting payed for doing little to nothing why not keep getting payed for doing little to nothing.

So CFM what is your point? Something in particular or just in general? Any suggestions as to what could be done....who or what would you cut, reduce or change? Salary rates for all those positions are determined by surveys of similar positions nationwide within all types of government and private industry. You ask why someone wouldn't take the opportunity to move to a private job with better salary. Well in my case which is similar to many if not all other bios it would mean changing our consideration/perspective of the natural resources we work with from one of conservation to one of pure profit making for our employer. I personally could have a much higher salary and level of perks if I chose to join the commercial industry....but that would also mean having to change my way of working with natural resources. Glowballs perspective of state workers using the context of DOT employees shows a lack of any knowledge of WDFW employess and what they do....maybe he should try volunteering for a field project sometime so he may speak with actual knowledge of what he is talking about. ltlcleo I knew you were raised right....e-mail me as the fishies be in mass quantities below the cabin. Nuff said...continue to piss and moan.

Nah Cowlitz, I don't take any of this personal. I made the choice for who I work for and this stuff just comes with the territory.

I'm not directing the rest of this at you Cowlitz, but the board in general. By the way, it sounds like you've figure out who I am, so you gonna drop me a hint about yourself

I think if push came to shove and we compared equivalent jobs between private and state sector I think we'd see similar good to bad employee ratios. If that were actually the case, would folks feel that's acceptable or would state workers be held to a higher standard?

I know last week I went to several parts houses looking for some car parts and one guy was too busy bs'ing on the phone to help me. Another store the guy had no clue what I was after and had no clue how to look anything up. The other two stores employees were very helpful, but just didn't have the part I needed. I've also been trying to find someone to draw some building plans for me because I don't have time right now. Some folks won't even call me back and the others were just too busy to help me out. I tried to get them to recommend someone else and for whatever reason they weren't willing to help me out. Now if I added these up over the last couple of weeks, it would give someone the idea that a lot of private sector employees are worthless overpaid bums. Another example would be trying to hire a plumbing or electrical contractor where I live. From personal experience, it's an excercise in futility and when they do show up they bring the $30 part and spend 15 minutes installing it then expect you to pay $150 to $200.

Now in that same time I've had to contact L&I and employement securities to pay my workers comp and unemployment insurance. In both cases the clerks were very courteous and helpful. In one office it probably took 10 minutes or so to take care of things and probably 15 minutes to take care of things in the other. No complaints at all and I thougth they treated me better than the employees at a couple of the parts houses.

I know there are plenty of the exact opposite stories, but my question is: are state employees really worse or paid more than private sector employees as a whole?

Is there a similar website that lists the names of people collecting unemployment and welfare?

CFM as an expert you do acknowledge that natural resource budgets paid for by your tax dollars is about 1.5% of the state budget. This includes WDFW, DNR, DOE, IAC, Conservation Commission, State Parks and a couple other obscure agencies. All of those agencies get to split the 1.5 pennies out of every dollar you pay into the state budget thru various means.....used to be over 2.5% but hey life is tough lately. Some other state agency got that 1%. So you got a plan or what? What? No? You don't have one? Sheesh? Your great at stirren the crap but sure are short when it comes to bringing solutions to the discussion. How bout this...we all pay extra on our licenses for guaranteed increases in enforcement? Maybe pay more for increased access maintenance and acquisition? I would....oh btw I'm a taxpayer also.

CF- Thank you for appreciating my post, it is honestly how I feel.
Glowball- What you posted reflects what kind of friends you have if they actually work so little! Most of the "road-side-shovel-holders" I've seen are contractors, paid by gov't agencies, that were unfortunately awarded contracts based on bids. They are the ones taking it easy on the gov't dollar.

btf

earlier I made some what of a heated reply so I will apologize, you did get me thinkin about where our dollars are spent so all in all good topic btf I look forward to more of the same to keep the blood pressure up

Now on to the next, cfm you do get excited real quick. When you read someone's post read it all the way, I read some of these peoples post and it seems that you only get part of what they are trying to say, and then you just start jumpin their !@#$.
nuff said

For those that aren't aware, Washington is in the process of changing it's entire civil service system. The necessary laws (SHB 1268 for those interested) were passed this last session and the new civil service system will commence in 2005. My understanding is there's no fudge room on the date since it's spelled out in the legislation.

Essentially the plan is to function more like a business and less like state government. For example: the new legislation calls for "contracting out" some state jobs. Wages and benefits for employees will also be negotiated between the govenors team and individual bargaining units. Merit will also play a larger roll in layoffs and salaries. Obviously those that are "slackers" get fired or layed off first and those that "bust tail" get the bonuses just like the private sector. If folks are interested about what's going on, visit Washington's Dept of Personnel's webpage and you can learn more. Just realize that we are drifting down river and building the boat at the same time, so there will likely be questions that don't have answers yet. This is a huge undertaking and personally I think 2005 is a little ambitious, but obviously the legislature disagrees.

I'm guessing the rollout in 2005 will be a little bumpy. It will then probably take a few years to clean up the fatal flaws that got missed in the planning process and by 2008 or so things should be working fairly smoothly. Who know's, by then this discussion might just be a moot point.

cfm
so if i post over a 1000 then i can join in?
I don't think so.
furthermore your post are more negative then most, hell look what you did to that guys pic with the 2 hotties you ph*&ed up the resolution and made it look like crap. take a step back and look at your history.

Bentpole-

Thank you. I know when it comes to discussing state employees ethics and pay it tends to get a little heated on both sides. I know I try like h3ll to not take it personal or start taking jabs at others, but it is hard not to sometimes. I've seen my fair share of questionable work ethics by some state employees and even went so far as to discuss it with them. I don't know if it made a difference, but it was worth a shot. In all honesty, I think the majority of state employees are hard working and dedicated employees.

Food for thought for the board:
I'm bringing this up only to illustrate a point that what you see isn't always what it seems. Several years ago I was working on a project that involved working 12 to 14 hours a day and involved a lot of travel time. I was working by myself and had finished up for the week and was driving to the office. Now me personally, I'm not accustomed to getting up to work at 2 or 3 in the morning then working 12 or 14 hours so it was taking it's toll on me. I was probably 50 or 60 miles from the office and I was so tired I couldn't drive another mile.

It took me probably 15 minutes to debate in my head what I should do. To me it was a no-brainer, but I was more concerned about what someone might say if they saw me napping in my truck then falling asleep at the wheel and killing myself or for that matter someone else. Eventually I pulled onto an old logging road out of view and proceded to nap for an hour or so (off the clock of course). Now I can imagine what a hunter would've thought if they would've seen me, but what would folks expect me to do in the same circumstance? Personally I think I made the right decision and the risk of "being caught", was justifiable. In the same situation today, if I were to keep driving and fall asleep at the wheel and kill someone, I could go to prison for involuntary manslaughter.

Again, the whole point to me bringing this up was to illustrate what you see isn't necessarily what it seems. Now I'm not trying to defend those that are "milking the system", but I am trying to point out that sometimes there are legitimate reasons for doing things that don't exactly look kosher. I'll also add that although this thread has gotten heated a few times, but I think it's actually a pretty good thread for an OT thread.

CFM its always a conspracy isn't it?

ya i recall stating i was his self appointed spoksman
and he asked for help posting pics not mutilating them
by the way that was just one way of you steppin in and making everything peachy


bentpole for self appointed spokesmen
send your votes to cfm.com

Gooose

Don't you WDFW guys ever change that same old punch line?

I find it funny that you guys pulled this thread from "your other site" and then you got the gonads to come over to Bob's site and try to put everyone down with your same old "conspiracy" crap that you use all the time. You guys are just too funny!


Cowlitzfisherman

Goose and Bent Pole:

My daddy taught me never to argue with fools or drunks. Perhaps words to the wise.

s.c.
good lesson t.y. i will follow dads advice

Hey CFM
I'm going fishing this afternoon. What are you up to old friend?

This has been an interesting discussion, but I for one, find it a bit disturbing that this information is available.

I have less of an issue with elected officials salaries, like senators, representatives, etc, because they are pretty much standard across the board, and I would be concerned if they were cutting everyone else's funds, but increasing their of paychecks.

I believe that the everyday state worker should have the same right to privacy as I do as to what my salary is, or their's. I will not be visiting this site, out of respect for the privacy of these state employees. I have worked for certain employers where I actually signed a contract stating that I would not divulge my salary, or the salary of others if I found out, and that I faced termination if I violated this.

As for some other site pulling that post, I agree wholeheartedly with that decision, as I am sure a number of others here would agree that a post like this has no place on this board.

I'm not picking a fight with you Bob, just respectfully stating my difference of opinion. It might be nice if you rethought your actions, and edited your post, disabling a link to that website, or deleting this topic completely. If you decide not to then I guess it is your perogative.

Take care,

Andy

i`d call the whole group of hatchery bio`s into my office and tell them that they are all going to have to payback the money that washington trout has won in its lawsuits over hatcherys, then i would tell them that the next time washington trout sues and wins a dime over hatchery issues that the whole group is fired.

It's kind of funny that we seem to begrudge anyone who works for the government if they drive too nice a car or make above minimum wage. Every discussion I have ever heard on this subject is similar in that no federal or state or city employee works for their salary and they have air conditioning in their car which is bullsh$$t!!!! They have too expensive of a lunch or whatever. KInd of like ....."Oh MAN did you see Billy Bob? That sonuvabit##!! He was having a steak for dinner!" He works for WDFW!!! He should be eating pig vomit through a straw."

Now with that said I would also like to say that there are about twice the government employees on payrolls than is necessary. So fire the dumm aZZes and keep the good ones and run the ship more efficiently. Pay what the market requires for the position and give normal benefits . Run the agencies like the rest of us in business have to ..lean and mean.

not too many years ago hatchery workers' pay was so low they qualified for food stamps...the pay is better now because of union bargaining but they gave up some things for it...for example you can't strike.. also they're non-scheduled employees which means you get no overtime unless you work over 40 hours a week. so you can be worked 40 hours straight with no overtime if the boss is mad at you...you're also forced to pull standby,if you live on station you can't leave the hatchery to live a life for a week to ten days at a time..usually twice a month...so no running to the store or seeing a movie or going to a kid's game...essentially you're working 24-hours a day for a week+...and you only get 1.00 an hour for this time..if you live off station you have to carry a pager 24 hours a day and make sure you're within 30 minutes of the hatchery at all times in case there's an alarm...of course during this weekly stand by you can drink NO alcohol..not even one beer or you get written up..as far as lazy workers go...try working at hoodsport or cowlitz and see how fun it is to work 10 thousand fish day after day for months on end while freezing your ass off....or sling a couple thousand pounds of feed every day...
..and then there are the people that piss on you're truck(literally) or flatten your tires when you stop to eat somewhere because you're one of those 'lazy overpaid fish and wildlife employees'...

YOu know what CFM, I was not going to bother with this but I just could not let it go.

There are secritaries, Janitors, teachers, bus drivers etc that work for the state. They in no way deserved to be included on that list. They just go about thier lives. The reason your ill advised post was removed from the other board was because it made it just a little easier for idenity thieft.

I have to ask if you gave that even a passing thought?

Are you also in favor of web sites with home addresses and phone numbers of police officers?

It is all the same thing, it serves no real purpose dispite what you may think. The idea that you as a tax payer being a state workers boss is old and just not valid. Just in case you are not sure, this is a Republic. And in a Republic we elect officials. AND they hire people to run the day to day details. And they don't really work for you and me dispite what you may think.

I agree with Dogfish this should be closed or the link disabled.

Andy

I do respect your opinion and I like the way that you have addressed this issue. With that being said, I must say in all truthfulness that I will not delete this web site as a reference or my thread.

And this is the main reason why I will not delete it; I firmly believe that any person who works for a "private" party is truly entitled to have full protection on who knows what his income may be. The only persons who should have that information are his employer, or the person who pays the person their salary. Likewise, when a person is a state employee, he should abide by the same rule.

Now this is where some people, especially the people that work or have very close friends may differ. But this the reality; we "the people" are these peoples employers and "we the people" are entitled to see exactly what "we" are paying each and every one of "our" employees. I known that you do not, and will not fill this way, buy I believe there are more that do fell this way then those who don't. That is exactly why EVERY state employee has been told that everything they do or say unless it is attorney privileged information, is always public information.

Since you are such a good supporter of our "laws" I an a little surprised that you have taken such a stand on this issue. The law specifically states that we are entitled to know and have such information. That is why I do not understand your current position on this issue, since you always support whatever the law says is legal.

Am I wrong?

It really makes sense if you truly understand that "we" are the "states" employees' employer. There is no other legal way that one can say it, other then what I have said.

I have no bones to pick with anyone personally who works for WDFW! Just ask anyone who knows me there! What ever I may say here, I have said it to them in front of their face. So this was not ever meant to be get a "get even" with any WDFW employee. It was only meant to give "the people" their legal right to know what, and who they are paying "their" employee.

The same people will continue to make stupid personal attacks to prove their own point of views, but that just make them look even lower in others eyes. I have attempted not do that, but being human, I sometimes fail.

So Andy, thanks for taking the time to write a very well written disagreeing point without getting personal like a few others have done. With that being said, I have received permission form the Web master of the site to post their entire email to me. Maybe some of you can understand why they have maintained this site and stop making personal attacks on others! That is my hope anyways, so here it is:
" Cowlitzfisherman,

My name is Louis bloom, the "webmaster" of the Washington state employees salaries site. Here's some of my thoughts on the outdoor forum about state salaries.

I'm amazed at the amount of traffic at these forums. My website visits are usually around 500 people on weekdays and 200 on weekends. There were a minimum of 250 extra visits on Friday and 200 extra on Saturday, because of the outdoor forum.

I started the salaries list in 1996, as an "oddball public service" hobby. I had a close relative that was fired from his Washington state dshs job after he whistleblew about his boss hiring his mistress. I figure that publishing the names and salaries of public employees might reduce the cronyism and nepotism in the hiring and promoting of government employees.

I think that government provides a fairer, cheaper, and better service than private deregulated businesses will. I think most public employees are well compensated (except beginning teachers), and i don't believe comparable private sector jobs are available to public employees.

I feel that one of the best things about our governments, (local, state, federal) is the freedom of information laws. I'm amazed that my government responds to these requests, even though it may not like the information to be public.

I'll request the Tacoma PUD salary list, with the next batch of freedom of information requests I send out.

You can add any or all of my comments to the outdoor forum. I try to be open and above board about who I am. People will throw back any perceived double standard or hypocrisies, and they should.

Louis Bloom
manaco@whidbey.net"

This truly is a person who I can respect!

Cowlitzfisherman

Tacky thread....

In a time where identity theft is a common occurance, I really dont appreciate having my wages posted. And as far as the lame a$$ comment "we pay your wages...." Keep your damn nickle. I shop at Safeway yet I dont ask to see the checkout persons pay stub even though I help pay their wages... Next time I go to dinner shall I demand to know what the waitress makes? (incidentally, I'll give her more money than any one person in this state gives me...)

I think people should mind their own damn business.

I get it...

It's ok to have an opinion as long as it matches CFM's!

Identity theft is one of the fastest growing crimes in the nation. This sort of serves as a menu for those people, dont you think...

start with a list like this, choose a nice salary luckily it has a name attached, and to top it off, even the area the person lives in. With a little work, find an address (also easy to do online). From there is easy. surely you can visualize this CFM!!!

Also, the material listed is at least 2 years old. So even for the purposes you stated, its worthless.

No matter how you slice it CFM, its just wrong and rather sad that you dont see that. Keep trying to justify it all you want... its pathetic.

CFM,

Just a difference of opinion, that's all. I will abide by the letter and spirit of the law, even though I might not agree with it. I can act within tighter constraints than the law allows me to act, and still be just fine. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean that it is okay to do.

Andy

Nasty site..it's like a crash scene ....don't want ot look but you can't help it....

I have concluded that the employees site is related to fishing .

State employees are like the seal deal TOO DAMN MANY of THEM

CFM-

You missed the point. They dont have to know my name. They grab anyones salary attached to their name as well as where they live. It could be anyone. Why does it matter that the odds are slim they will chose me? Will that matter to the people they do pick? Sort of selfish thinking isn't that? Its not scare tactics, its the world of the internet. I heard somewhere (King 5, I believe), there were over 5000-6000 cases last year in Washington alone. The go through your garbage, or mail, or whatever. And, generally I dont bother the kids in my math class with identity theft...(nice distractor)

As for your question about why post on a bulletin board... I wouldn't post on any board that asked for my salary, or social security number, or credit card number. That would be plain stupid, yet I look at that site and there I am, name salary, and town I live in.... That pisses me off. Its really not anyones business. Salary schedules are one thing, they dont list exact numbers and tie them to names. You can see them online and decide if teachers get fair pay or not. Anything else is a breach of privacy.

Just because its legal, doesn't make it right now does it... Nor because its on the internet make it ok either. You can call a turd a steak, but it still stinks.

You also neglected to comment on the information being over 2 years old. How can information that old be of any use to you?

I know I'll never get you to change your stance even a little so I'm going to quit wasting my time here.

actually 10 million people have their identity stolen every year accounting for $53 billion in fraud according to the ftc...the number one thing they say to do is shred stuff you throw away...my friend is still trying to fix his accounts after someone stole checks from his mailbox last year...

Grandpa: First time ever! We are in agreement.
While we seldom see things the same way CFM has brought us together.

CFM-

Repeat after me...

I will not be naive, I will not be naive....

5000-6000 in WASHINGTON EACH YEAR. It has happened to me. Credit card number stolen and $1500 charged to it. major pain in the a$$. I'm one of the many its happened to. You are not in Kansas anymore Toto! This is a major problem and most people dont realize that it has happened to them until their money is gone, or their credit is screwed up.

Theres a difference between being careful and paraniod. Theres a difference between doing what is right and what is wrong. AGAIN, Just because its legal does not make it OK. It is legal to fish for spawners sitting over reds, its not OK. Its legal for TCL to do what they do to the cowlitz, but its not OK. AND its legal for them to post that information, but its not OK.

I've seen your "debate" strategy many times over the board.... you derail the conversation with some silly side road (generally school yard namecalling) in order to avoid the fact you might be wrong. You can beat the paraniod drum until the cows come home, resort to all the crap you want, but the whole thing is still wrong. There are thousands of good people listed there who wouldn't want that information out there, AND THERE ARE NOSEY PEOPLE WHO THRIVE ON THAT KIND OF JUNK. which are you?

Do us ALL a favor and take your old freind along!! I think he needs it!!!!!!!

cfm
Are you the guy with the big billboard down in Cowlitz County with the Uncle Sam on it?
It would be fitting!

CFM-

nice change in strategy.

You have us figured out... We teachers make WAY TO MUCH, and you've exposed us! damn, you'll be on 60 minutes for sure. Thank God for patriotic americans like you! I can read the headlines now "First year teachers making a whopping $21,000" I think you've solved the state's budget problems. Nice work... you should be proud.

I hope you're smarter than you sound here...

Your get a different job strategy is plain stupid. That would be a brilliant move after paying for all the education it took to get in the profession, and all the hoop$ we jump through just to keep ourselves certified.

I noticed you posted your name previously, but you forgot to mention your salary? Why not include you taxes for the last few years too? (I could get them anyway if I wanted too.)

You deny that identity theft happens, and say I'm just paranoid, despite me telling you it already has to me and many thousands of others statewide, you just keep writing "paranoid" like a child covering his ears, closing his eyes, and screaming "I cant hear you..." when he doesn't want to hear something. Maybe your right... It'll never happen in Toledo! And especially not to YOU!

When you decide to stop clouding the issue and make a valid point, I'll be watching, but not holding my breath....

Anyone seen a small white haired scruffy looken "cur" dog lately that yaps alot but doesn't really have much of value to say in response to others queries as to why it yaps so much? It just yaps back and dances around honest cogent questions based on facts it's afraid to address. Be forewarned this dog will bite anyone who chooses to disagree with it. Seriuously I'm lookin for this dog.

Gonads are brass and very big .

I can see the "Remove Cow... from the board" poll starting up shortly. I'm ready to vote...

Some peoples long winded soap boxes definately get old.I do not even have the will to read them any more,basicly because of what auntym said.

Same ones are still a crying !!



If only you knew what people are thinking about your hopeless whining?

You guys are your own worse foes, you just can't understand how pathetic some are you are begging to sound, especially moderators from other boards restoring to name calling.
Maybe you guys can all form a "click" and start a new state agency. You can call it something KKK anonymous! Take off those sheets and show your faces!!

Or just keep

PS and please don't use our tax dollars while your at work today to keep crying about your actions.


Cowlitzfisherman

I want to make sure I understand you guys correctly here. This web site shows your name (no one can figure that out) your job title and your salary. These three things will help someone steal your identity. HOW? I steel need your social security number, bank account number, date of birth how about a mothers maiden name. Lets not be silly. There is nothing on that site that can't be figured out with a little prying at your choice of employment.

If you really are upset with it contact the person in charge of the website. I'm betting that you payed for the site with your taxdollars. So I'm I wrong in saying you made a bad financial decision.

I work in the privite sector and my wages are posted on the net too real easy to find. Big deal
All you that work for the public know that your wage and benifit package is public information.If you cant deal with it you could always go job hunting.

Global, as an assistant network addmin I can tell you that ALL of the info needed for idenity theft is right there on the net. All you need is the time and knowledge to get it. That is once you have decided it would be worth your time. And that is why I don't like this thread.

And CFM if you really knew how it worked and had ever saw the after effects you would know it was not parinoia.

Enough said on this.

What a senseless thread.

With age comes wisdom, or is that bitterness?

CFM, you've provided some great info over time. Sure would like to see you take the high road here.

PD

CFM - I try my best to keep my life private. I don't think it's anyone's business how much I make, except my supervisor. This feels invasive to me, and I resent that my private information is out there for the world to see. And I think the majority of folks feel the same way.

You stated, "Looks like about 50% of the posts on this thread think that the public jobs and salaries ought to be made public information." Well, it already is.

Job classifications and their various salaries are available for the world to see on the Department of Personnel web site (http://hr.dop.wa.gov/statejobs/jobs.htm).

So, if the jobs and salaries are already listed, why do you need the names?


Hey, let's start a new thread - "What do you do, and how much do you make?" How many folks would post the whole truth on that thread?

This really is a tasteless thread, and I think it should be deleted.

CFM, you are usually working towards a good cause - You went the other direction this time, in my opinion.

I'm not a state welfare case and I don't have a private employer. I sit on my butt, go fishing or otherwise do basically anything else I want to do all day and I pay myself a small pittance of about 16,000.00 annually to do it. If anyone cares to help me in my impoverished lifestyle… I accept donations… I'll also fish for food.

Dang. I am underpaid compared to my peers! I need a raise.

PS. State employee salaries have always been public record. Anyone working for the state should know that.

Don't slap CFM around for just posting a web site. Regardless of his whacky views (just kidding), he didn't do anything here. Seeing how WDFW employees are on the list, this seems appropriate as a "fishing related" discusssion, even if some of you feel threatened, or whatever it is you're feeling.

Don't like it? Either don't work for the state, or get the laws changed to protect your privacy.

PPS. The Norwalk Virus sucks. I recommend that you do not get it. My wife and baby have had it since Friday. Still at home nursing the sick and wounded.

Parker
Puke & Diarreah Pro Staff

Then I want to know what everyone else in the world makes! And don't give me that "you chose to work there" crap - Maybe I'm just doing what I need to do for me and mine, but that doesn't mean having my private life broadcast to everyone is "my choice".

Just the kind of world we need, a world with no privacy.

CFM for Ayatollah!!

Geez CFM, nothing like pissing a few people off.

I don't get it. I wouldn't have posted that site for all to see just simply because I know that several people on this board work for the government and that it might make them uncomfortable. Just because you don't perceive this as risky, doesn't mean you should make that decision for others, especiallly members this board who offer you information, a seat on their boat, etc. when you need it.

Your thread will not lead to a better/more efficient government, and more importantly, will make it difficult for many PP board members to take you seriously in the future.

You pride yourself in saying it like it is, but make sure you think before you talk, or post for that madder. My impression on this thread is you just wanted to stir the pot rather than create some sort of grass roots movement to better government.

Requests to the Gov't for information on specific salaries, or whatever else one can think of, creates a lot of work for the agency and wastes even more of our tax payers dollars. And in the end what do they get? It should be a request that is made only if one really has a use for the information.

Every Fed/State/County and local agency has their own pay scale and benefit package, so blanket statements made about government workers are never accurate.

Glowball - Government agencies, in my experience, take the time to follow all State and Federal rules when performing Public Works type job. Occasionaly, and way more than is acceptable, private sector employers put the environment or employees lives on the line to get a job done more quickly - risking life/environment in order to turn a bigger profit.
Don't jump to conclusions based on a snapshot of what you see when driving down the road.

I don't go to a fishing web site to gather info on politics, and I would not be able to sleep at night if I knew that the guy/gal that shared the right leader length, or fishing report for their area felt as uncomfortable as you made elkrun and others feel.

Elkrun sure doesn't need me to speak for him, but that example was the firs to come to mind.

To quote Scott McNealy, CEO of Sun Microsystems:

"You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it."

As much as I would like to be idealistic about it, it's the truth.

Public disclosure never meant being posted on the street corner to be played with like it is here.

WOW, People are getting pissed for people making 50 grand per year? Has anyone bought a house lately or paid for braces? Unless one lives in a trailer park thats not alot of money. The biggest ripoff hands down to me is the construction of state roads. The prevailing wage is 35 bucks per hour(minimum) that the state pays each of 4 guys to watch 1 work. These guys work for 4 or 5 months, earn 10 grand per month, then go on unemployment for the rest of the winter where the state pays them to nothing!!!! This is just my observation, I should not comment at all because I work for the REAL dark lord himself, an oil company.

Damn CFM can't you figure this out for yourself.

Most public discloser laws predate the internet and for that matter a lot of mass comunication formats by decades. And they were NOT set up by or for the will of the people. Mostly they were set up by the judical branch of the government to help them keep tabs on what was and may be going on. It was never ment to be used to broadcast over the internet to millions of people.

And if you don't think that is what you did then you should really rethink things. Just how many people read posts here that never join? I can guarantee you that you have no idea.

One last time, this thread was not a good idea!

if you want privacy you better get rid of your cell phone ,land line ,quit banking,have your power shut off,oh yea might as well quit working too. I typed a old friends name and where I last knew of him residing 20 years ago into a people finder deal on the internet and up comes his phone # and address kinda nice to talk to him again.Try typing your area code and phone # into google then take your choice of which company to use for the map to your house. You can make your life as private or not so private as you like it all depends on the choices you make

CFM,
Thanks for the chuckle. I read the reply you offered up.

You pick a couple of lines from my post, take them out of context, and then don't let up with the sarcasm - boring.

As Steve Martin once said, "You're like a Chatty Cathy doll, only you pull your own cord"

and...

"Try having a point at the end of your story, it makes it so much more enjoyable for the listener".

Of course the above comments only apply to this thread, and are ment to be in good humor:



Thanks for the fun CFM, but this game's over for me. You make light of this, but when you post personal information about board members, some won't let that go. Or as you might say, it will continue to fester. I don't imagine, as a "say it like it is" guy, that that's the reputation you are looking for.

See you on the next post, if it's fishing related that is.

I'll try this again,

I'm not saying they'll figure out who I am directly. I'm saying this kind of list is a menu for these kind of people. Identity theft doesn't mean they wear a look alike rubber mask and assume your identity convincing your mom to give them cash (although I think cfm might be thinking along that lines...) These people simply find a target. There are lots of ways they do it, but this list makes it really easy. An example if you will..

A person searches this list and picks a name, a name with a good dollar figure attached. In the case of teachers/administrators, they tend to live in or near the district they teach for. Since that is listed (maybe that should be excluded???) they do an address search in the phone book for that area. From there there is lots they can do... For one, they could simply just rob the house. Or go through the trash (one of the most common methods used to gain important numbers), or like in my case just rifle through the mailbox... When it happened to my family they intercepted a renewal visa and maxed it out in 3 days. Our bank immediately called because of all the activity and wanted to check up on it. Its lucky for us the did that because we were immediately able to get the police involved, and after a major hassle, the account was covered by visa. It isn't a nice feeling to have something like this happen.

regardless of what cfm says, I am not being paranoid. The odds of someone choosing me based on my salary are laughable. But thats not the point now is it.... Within 10 minutes I could track the address of any teacher on there unless they have an unlisted phone number. (which I do) I really didn't look elsewhere on the site except to see what they listed for me, so I dont know if it would be that easy for other state employees... This info was 2 years old based on the fact that some of the people I worked with that moved in 2001 were still listed. And by the amount of my salary... it has changed... a little.

someone earlier said, "you should have taken better precautions..." another silly statement. How can you take precautions for something you didn't know existed? The is no way for anyone to remove their names from that list. The best we can hope for is to get it changed, or convince people that just because its there doesn't mean you need to support it (What I'm attempting here...).

I often tell kids that I teach or coach, that sometimes adults make decisions simply based on their morals. My morals tell me that someones salary is there own business. My own parents would never ask me what I make! Why should every kid I teach be able to look it up in a heart beat? I know cfm will respond that it is everyones business when they are paying those salaries in taxes. Maybe so if a person is in an elected or appointed position.... I'll bet 95% of the people listed have no idea they're there.

Bottom line....

The list is wrong, both morally and numerically. Really there is no purpose for it other that to entertain nosey people who have no sense of right or wrong. Whats the plan here? someone going to break out the calculator and crunch those numbers to figure out the states budget woes? Not likely.

cfm chose to post this, yet in typical manner got pissed off when he was immediately challenged. Like I stated earlier, Its ok to have an opinion as long as it matches his... I really dont think he thought this thing all the way through. I believe the intent was to draw attention to wdfw spending. But once the $hit hit the fan, I would have had some respect for him if he simply said " man, I didn't think about that..." but he didn't, he started name-calling and ripping people. I wasn't after anything other than to get him to see a different perspective. Go back and decide for yourself who turned it into this.... But thats sort of his gig now isn't it.

To each his own I guess, but I'm done pissing in the wind here.

Any one dislike constantly yippyapping dogs as much as me? Especially one that can't reply to any questions except with more yipyap. :p Keep the yipyap up CFM as it's only your credibilty you piss on .

Good Stuff!

cfm,
there has been no personal attacks unless you are just to sensitive, and just about or almost everyone has disagreed with you or some pat of, so why do you want to subject yourself to this?


cfm just let it go

Cfm,
Boy you sure got some peoples pantys in a bunch this time
But they just need to stop and get over it.
Its really funny that these "teachers" dont know the meaning of public information.
But there are always those people that will shoot the messenger arnt there. They are acting like you made that web page or something.
If they have a complaint it should be to the state not you!!!

duroboat keeps casting.... but one will bite.

cfm,

You said you make 15 g's? So are you worried the state is wasting your 46 bucks?

KIDDING

CFM-

I find it unbelievably galling that you you would question Surecatch's 'credibility' when you pull BS stunts like this...

...and Dan...

...that's some funny shyte...

...but the way I figure it CFM should actually be getting money back from the gubment, so really, its OUR money he is worrying about being misappropriated.

Thanks for your concern CFM.....

If he is getting money back where is the website that says how much?

concerned citizens want to know....

Next year you get $15,003.

Let it be said!!!

That Dan is a very understanding and very companionate man!

I knew I could count on you Danny boy...but only for 3 cents? You got to dig DEEEEEEEEEEEEEper dan to buy me off!

You always give me at least 2 cents worth ...and that's when I don't even ask you for it!


Cowlitzfisherman

I'm just lookin' out for ya, cowfish. We don't want anybody's eyebrows being raised by your COLA. Heck, next thing you'll be asking for is Federal Holidays off.

Man, some guys just want it all !

cfm-

Your bark has absolutely no bite. Sorry to break the news to ya . Most of the kids I see daily do a much better job of debating too. I hate to burst yer bubble, but most of your "debate" is retyping what someone else has said, (which is usually the most intelligent part of what you have to say... ) and then it gets unclear what your point is. Stick to the quotes and stop there, you'll be better off. Sorry... I'm a tell it like it is sort of guy too.

Here let me start your response "you said....

Wow, some pretty harsh words in the last 4 pages. I can understand anyone getting upset if thier personal financial records are publicized. So if you took the job, knowing that's the deal, it didnt bother you enough to not take it. Anything after that is sour grapes. If you dont like it, do the work to change it. I'll bet there's not a person in here that would disagree that there's a better way to make the information public. How about altering the name to an employee number instead of a name. Or a title? How tough can it be. You have very good reasons to not want your personal info public.The site is a resource. If your not willing to do the work to change it, you have no right to *****!

And dont kill the messenger. CFM did not make the info public, he posted a link. It's his right to do so! Yet some of you lashed out at him. For 4 pages! Attack after attack! Pitiful!

CFM, I dont know why you waste your time and patience responding to several of these posters, they are not worthy of your effort. I would have told them where to go, about half way through page one!

None of the teachers I talked with today were ever informed of this.... They were pretty upset to hear about it though. This isn't something they generally bring up in an interview... "oh by the way, sign here and we'll be taking away any right to privacy you have... " They didn't mention it in college, or student teaching, or anywhere. I'm in my 14th year and this is the first I've heard of it.

Also, generally a messenger just delivers the message. He's done a tad more than that dont ya think?

AND AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE ITS LEGAL DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT.

PS: I'll be looking into what I can do about this, but I've only known about it for 2 days. Thats a little quick to expect results. I think just listing the teachers by name and salary excluding the district they work in would be a good start. Ideally I was thinking that just listing a total amount a district spends on personnel would be fair. I've always found that its best to have an idea on what your after before you begin. Besides, cfm and I are in a good old pi$$ing contest and I drank a lot of water today

AND AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE YOU DIFFER IN OPINION, YOU DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO INSULT SOMEONE. TRY BEING MORE CONSTRUCTIVE WITH YOUR COMMENTS!

Plenty of constructive comments in the posts I've made since the beginning. Some pi$$ing but a lot of points too. Dont worry about cfm, he's having a good time with this, ask him. This isn't the first heated debate for either of us on this board. I dont think either has stepped out of bounds. We've jabbed a little but no KO punches thrown here. If we do Jerry or Bob will let us know.... and their watching.

Besides I'm done with this one. Its sort of run its course. Back to the fishing threads.

I see you're new here, just wait until april and may when theres nothing to fish for, then it gets real interesting!

Elkrun

Maybe you need to reread what I had told BW about how and why our laws are the way that they are. Without putting you down, or pi$$ing you off further, please read Title 40, 41, and especially Title 42 of the revised codes of Washington State Laws. If you would just take the time to read ALL of them through completely, I believe that you just may begin to understand WHY public servants records (within the listed exemptions and limitations) are so necessary to be open and public. I am sure you will still not agree on the law on this issue, but I believe you will understand WHY there is a need to make this information public. It's really the "big picture" that one will develop after reading and understanding these laws. Please spend a few hours of reading and then tell me if you still think that public servants shouldn't have open accountability to the people who pay them their salaries.

At the very least you will understand why I have such a strong point of view or opinion about this issue. Who knows, it may even become an assignment for your students once you do the research.

No more pi$$ing matches between us, lets just talk about the merits of the law after you have had an opportunity to fully comprehend why we have the right to review each and every state workers wages. There are definite reasons for the need, as you will see!



Cowlitzfisherman

cfm-

I would love to but september is the wrong time. I honestly dont have a spare moment. Even while I type this I'm correcting 180 math papers, and still have to read my scouting report on Mount Tahoma for friday night, And I NEED to fish this weekend or someone gets hurt!.... I'll take your word that its important at some level. I just dont think I'm quite important enough to be included. I know technically we are paid for by the state, but in reality we work for the local districts. Shouldn't they (the districts) be accountable to list their total personnel expenses instead? Simply list the numbers of teachers at each level of the pay scale.. I have a lawyer friend who I'll talk to about this, and give him the code #'s to read. He can give me the readers digest version. I'll get back to you then.

He got you there CFM...... Thats some funny stuff!

CFM I'm with ya on this one! Its my money that pays for these employees.. I feel I should know where the monsy is being spent..


All of you that think people shouldnt know tell me this
If you had or have a bussiness would you want your accountant to not tell you how much your employees are making? Or spend your money yet not tell you where and how?

Timberman-
Attempting to manage a business is way different than this. How could a list of thousands of educational assistants/teachers/administrators have any importance to you as a member of the general public? You cant make any decisions based on this information, yet as a business owner you could. Ok, I dont like Locke and I think he make too much money... what can I do with that information? not vote for him? big deal, I still end up chipping in my nickle towards his salary... I'm willing to bet that Bill Gates doesn't get that detailed information on all those he employs, nor would he want it. A summary of costs for all his employees is more managable... And he doesn't employ near as many people as you do timberman!

please read on below

CFM- I read all three... I'll be up way late finishing stuff now, but felt it was only fair to try and see your side. I have to be honest with you, not much as changed. I already understood the intent when we started the debate. Its a little different perspective when its your information out there. What possible importance could my salary have to any of you? Some think we make too little, some too much... either way there is nothing you can do with this information. If I am failing to see an application for this please clue me in. I really dont have a problem with people knowing how much we make in general. A state salary schedule for teachers is available for that. This item gives you a range of teacher salaries from first year teachers with only a bachelors degree, to a 20 veteran with a masters degree and 90 credits. Even include a teacher count and total amount spent district by district... more than enough information to make sure the money is spent correctly. (probably more readable than thousands of names and salaries too.) Once you attach the name to the exact salary, I think the intent of the code is lost. It teeters on invasion of privacy, of course they included a sheild for responsibility in case this information does cause harm (such as the identity theft example) ya gotta love the government! It was also easy to see that the code was written without mass publication in mind. (They spoke a ton about who was responsible for the paper costs, copying procedures etc...) I dont think an upload to a website was what they had in mind. I do however feel that elected or appointed positions should fall under tighter scrutiny. Its a double edged sword really, disclosure to protect the people yet it puts other people at risk. (even if you think the risk is minimal, its still there as I described earlier...and $1500 wasnt minimal for my budget!) I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see my representative from time to time at school functions and will bring it up with him to get his feeling about it.

I wanted to address something you said in your last post about accountablity to those I serve. I fully believe i'm accountable to the parents and students I teach. But accountable for what i teach, and to some extent how I teach it. I'm accountable for how I spend school funds, or grants I earn. I'm even more accountable for a childs learning than their parents are... sad as it is. But opening my checkbook to the public is a little much. Especially to everyone in the world (literally) to see. I think that is way more than the law intended.

I'm tired and I'm not sure this is making sense so I'll summarize in one more line... ( I'm not taking responsibility for grammatical errors either!)

The intent of the law could be easily upheld without making the information so personal.

End of Elkrun's thesis ... back to work!

Hey cowlitzfisherman,

looks like you made some people feel uncomfortable. I think maybe they feel a little more paranoid about taking that extended lunch break now huh? Or maybe they dont feel there actually worth what they are being paid?
sheesh, Game Wardens making over 4000 dollars a month to write tickets to people using barbed hooks or snagging hoodsport chums, while not putting in a little extra effort to catch people who are endangering our native fish.

You ever hear the joke about how many people it takes for the government to put somebody on fire watch?

I make about $20.52 after taxes which go to pay there wages and help illegal aliens get drivers licenses.

Some people are actually worth what they get paid, but there is alot of waste.

Exposing your privacy?

Here are a few thoughts:
1) Equifax
2) Experian
3) Trans Union

And how many of you privacy buffs furnish
your shopping habits to a grocers database?

Give us a break here!

Hey micro what do you do for a living?

County employ?????do not work too hard today!

Those are my hard earned tax dollars at work correct.I have seen you guys slaving away.What a joke.

If the babys havent noticed yet the link was removed yesterday morning.

CFM,
Thanks again for that info. Good thing I bookmarked it before it was removed that gave me time to send it off to some friends. Some of which are on the list and thought it was cool (they got to look up what there bosses make). I was surpriased that I even got a thanks for the link from Tim Eyeman's group when I sent it there.

All you cry babies about state and government employees need to stop posting on this board and go back to work pay more taxes cuz I need a raise...

Your boss was thinking about giving you one...........but then he found out you are spending time on the internet instead of working. :p

KIDDING

Mods - Thanks for removing the link.

I have no problem with what most of you are saying. I would gladly disclose my pay, my hours, my job classification, and even my work logs so all my "bosses" out there can see that they're getting their money's worth. But why do you need my name attached to it?

That's really my only complaint - it is a violation of my privacy.

Signed,
Office Assistant Senior
$2249.00 a month

CFM,
Boy I got sucked in by the old poor under paid teachers in my district too. And I think I was in shock to see the truth. It to has changed the way I will vote in the future for sure.
I will say the the teachers have a real smart union. Keep telling the public what a first year teacher makes but dont bring up what the majority makes. And did you get a load of what the principals make. Its almost as if the public is getting robbed.
The funniest thing about this whole teacher thing is I wouldnt have even looked at that part of the web site had it not been for all the . It made me think they had something to hide for sure.

cfm,

Did you find out how long these two have been teaching? While it looks like they make a pretty decent living, I'm not sure their wages are out of line.

Dan

I don't know how long they have been teaching, but he has probably been teaching for 8 or 10 years. But how many guys or gals do you know that make $62,000 a year with great benefits, all paid holidays and vacation days and then get the entire summer off to do whatever they want to do!

Should a person get paid high wages just becuase they do the same job all of their life? Doesn't everyone have to work anyway? So what would be the difference how long you worked?

That could be a whole nother thread!

Not to shabby for a nine month salary I would say!

Cowlitzfisherman

Plus weekends off
Plus only having to work day shift
Plus week long breaks during the 9 months

Apparently you guys whined enough to Jerry to get him to pull off the website link
Nobody whined to me CFM

I went to the website that Jerry has now removed

I just looked up that teachers salary on the site that Jerry has now pulled

So that's my example why the website that Jerry has now removed

That's 4 times in your post CFM that you mentioned me removing the address. I had concluded after reading ALL the replies and weighing ALL answers that the web address was in poor taste. Anybody that wants the address I'm sure can email you and you would gladly send them the info.

Thanks for reminding me DUROBOAT15!

I forgot to mention the other 2 or mores weeks off like Christmas Vacation, and Easter Vacation week!

Not bad at all!

Cowlitzfisherman

cfm,

Well, it IS standard practice to earn more as your years of expereince grow. Anybody who is still working for the same wages they were 10 years ago is either lazy or a fool.

I know that teachers only work full-time 9 months out of the year, but they hardly work 9-5 during those months. Overworked? No, but I doubt it's as easy as many make it out to be.

The funny thing is, nobody complains about what a CEO makes..........yet you pay THEIR salary too. Not in taxes, but you pay it if you buy stuff from them. $62,000/year can be justified as far as I'm concerned but how do you justify being paid a million dollar bonus when your company's workforce had been decimated by layoffs?
It's a little different, because you CAN choose not to buy items from such a company, but you HAVE to pay taxes.......but it's similar.

Thoughts?

You know Jerry,

After reading what a lot of these "public employees" are now making, it left a pretty "bad taste" in a lot of our mouths also!

Sorry about those taste buds Jerry


Cowlitzfisherman

"The funny thing is, nobody complains about what a CEO makes.........."

That sure isn't what I have been hearing on the news for the past year!

Tell that one to all the stock holders that took it in shorts!

You said;"... but you HAVE to pay taxes.......but it's similar." Dan that's not really true! If your old enough and don't make over a certain amount, you can get out of paying special school levy taxes. That's not fair either, because you then put the tax burden onto your neighbor just because they may be younger and can't qualify for the same exemption!

Go figure!


Cowlitzfisherman

cfm,

I'm curious about this exemption from levies......can you elaborate a little?

Sure you can avoid paying taxes......all you have to do is live in poverty. Not my cup of tea, though.

CFM,
Im not joking when I say this. But you should run for public office of some kind. This state is in dire need of someone with your common sense and understanding of state issues.
But I understand why you wouldnt. Haveing to work with the people we have in office now could end up putting someone in an early grave. But you could count on my vote for sure!!

DURO,

It would never work. Common sense is not tolerated in politics. You go in honest and hardworking........and you either get voted out or you are assimilated into the quagmire with everyone else.

It's inevitable.........and how would you feel if you voted cfm into office and then he came out lobotomized?

Of course she did........and NOW we're seeing how smart you really are, I mean not fighting a battle you can't win.

Yep Dan the man is a genius!!! Not to fight that battle

Dan
There are a lot of WAC's that address these tax exemptions so you will have to look through them all to get the exact details! I called our local Auditors Office and they transferred me to the Appraisers Office. The girl didn't know exactly which WAC relates to this exemption, so she gave me several for you to check out. She did say that you had to 61 or older, a full time resident of Washington and your joint income must be $30,000 or less. She said that you are allowed to deduct your residence, and up to one acre of land with this exemption!

These are the WAC's to check out and see if you qualify;

WAC- Title 458-16; 458-16A; and 458-19

Hope this helps you find what you are looking for.

Cowlitzfisherman

Duro and CFM,

You guys are right, what have I been thinking. As Duro says, "with your common sense" - after all, those teachers are way over paid. I mean, all they do is teach kids, you know, tomorrows tax payers and public/private leaders. We should pay them less so we only attract from the bottom of the talent pool. Why would we ever want to get the best and brightest teaching the future. Do you really think 62k is to much to pay a skilled educator. Any idea what the mean starting salary for someone with an advanced degree is? How about with 10 years experience in their field? I would like to see them be paid more personally. Most of the positions are requiring Masters Degrees now and they should be rewarded for attaining the higher level of education that will help keep this country competitive for the future, along with making the positions more sought after by the best. Shame on me though for thinking long term and not just until Friday @ 5:00.

And no, I am neither a teacher nor someone from the public sector.

Hey Dan,

Good news! You don't have to be poor! If you itemize deductions on your tax return, property taxes (including school levies, I believe) are deductable from your Federal income tax liability. Well... at least that's what my accountant Seymore Dinero has been telling me!

CFM,

You just made a great statement for why they should be paid more, attract better talent where it is needed. (I'm not against weeding out ones that need to be, but I am solidly against less pay or cutting back levies that would negatively affect their pay)

CFM-

For the record, I never have complained to a mod about anyone or anything. I have no fear of telling how I feel much like you. But dont blame me for the link being pulled unless you feel that my arguements were that compelling...

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't being personal.... And you need to give me the benefit of the doubt on what I have to say next is accurate.

I also have another angle on why it shouldn't be allowed on the internet. That information is an exclusive right to the citizens of washington as you have stated. What if I were to agree, but my concern is that it is not exclusive to only the residents of our state. That information is available to the entire world. Why should residents of brazil be able to pull up information for washington state employees? If the gubment cant insure that only state residents view this material, then they need to find another way of getting the information out without jeopardizing my rights to privacy. ( I think I have found my angle to fight this with... ya gotta admit its pretty good!)

Now, cfm I want to deal with your levy and teacher salary/ benefit stuff. I know some others chimed in, but you and I seem to be the main players here so ...

levy's have absolutely nothing to do with teacher salaries. Levys are for school operation and maintence only. That means power, renovations, operations as they pertain to the actual building, and busing I believe. Teachers hate levys as much as you do. I despise that time of year. See, I too am a taxpayer. My property taxes are huge and I'm sick of seeing them climb. But honestly, most of the schools in my area are in bad shape. Mold, water damage, and numerous safety issues are present. Our district is in the third year of cutting back major funds. My son is a second grader and is on a bus that is so crowded that kids are standing in the aisles for the ride home because they cut so many routes. Even if you think teachers make too much... voting down a levy does nothing but hurt kids. It doesn't come out of our pockets in any way, nor does that money make it in either. Usually sports porgrams are the first to go after a levy failure, or parents are force to pay for athletics. This means the kids who need something to do after school the most, usually cant afford to play so they "hang out". This is bad news... you probably see enough of bored teenagers where you live... lets keep the agressive one in a sport under close scrutiny!

Now- lets deal with the "overpaid, great benefits, all that vacation stuff. Once I posted all the education that it took for me to climb to a decent wage on the salary schedule and I got ripped for that. But, I'm going to do it again so you get an idea what it takes to get to the 50k mark on the salary. The average teacher gets a four year degree, then student teaches. Once they get a job, they have to do what is called a "fifth year" where they take another year of school. That degree is pricey to earn ( I still pay on mine) Most teachers that stop there could apply for free and reduced lunch at their own schools and get it. 20-23k is a reasonable estimate of they're salary. In order to get up the salary schedule I had to go back and get a masters degree which took 2 years and several thousand dollars out of my pocket. I did that during those lovely smmers and every weekend for that two years while I was teaching. That will get you into the 30k range....6-7 years of college to get to that salary. I also went back and got a degree in psychology because i thought it would help me work with the kids I am seeing more and more of now days. 3 years for that second bachelors degree... again, nights weekend and that lovely summer time I keep hearing about. That will put you in the uper 30's to low 40's. 9 years of college to get to the 40k range.
We do get yearly raises for the first 16 years.. or 17 maybe. Then we will never get another raise for the rest of the time we teach unless gubment approves one... which they often promise, but rarely pay. I also pay $400 a month out of pocket for my part of my familys health care... (2 adults, 2 kids...) It has gone up five years in a row.

I can honestly tell you that I had 4 weeks off this year during the summer. I had classes to attend (which I paid for) just to keep my certificate current (even though I cant be paid anymore for the credits earned.. I'm at the top of that scale). I also coach to supplement my income, football eats up another 2-4 weeks with camps and two a days., plus adds at least 4 hours a day 6 days a week. I coached 4 sports for 5 years in a row.... With coaching I average a 12 hour day. I never sit at my desk reading the paper, and I work very hard as do most of the people I work with. Try teaching algebra to 30 hormone ridden teens... it can be ugly.
I have worked many jobs before I became an educator... I worked for a small logging operation for a couple of years, I have framed houses, installed cable tv, excavated, and I still work concrete (foundations and driveways mostly) in the summers and some weekends in the spring.... I know what hard work is. Teaching is incredibly tough.... most parents cant handle being around their own kids, try 180 teenagers a day. The time demands are absurd. Most jobs you do a 40 hour week and anything above that you're paid over time. In this profession you're working at least 50 and if you get anything extra (even for working the summer) its HALF TIME... thats right, about half your daily rate for teaching summer school, or saturday school... I refuse to do it.
I realize there are those who wont care, and think we make too much and do nothing regardless of what I saw. I dont really care about that... Thats the uninformed thinkng they're experts about school because they went there once. They have no idea other than what they remember about their own teachers. Luckily over 80% of the voters in this state disagree with them. I stay in the profession because I get a kick out of seeing a kid "get it" when I teach something, and hearing about former students/players making a name for themselves as adult . The downside is that some dont make it... some die or are killed (another story, another time) Thens its hard to go back into the room... I guess it has its ups and downs. I dont plan on getting rich, nor am I sure I'd want to. My wife and I both teach so we do OK financially.

Now cfm... once again. I read what you asked, I have a better understanding of the law thanks to your challenge. But, I dont agree completely that it is a good law as written. I do think some disclosure is a good idea, how much...well thats where it gets fuzzy. ( and honestly why should you care because its highly unlikely I could do anything about it....) but you asked that we tune this down and try and keep it civil...and I have. I understand your PO'ed because it was pulled. But, I had zero to do with that. If you want to bring it back down to a discussion... I'm in.

Again, my disclaimer about grammer and spelling.... I'm a math teacher for god's sake, I'm not perfect!

181 day contract (I'd love to go to year round school but PARENTS always kill the idea when it comes up?? go figure.)

15 credits required every five years just to keep your teaching certificate... even when they stop paying you for your education because more than a masters degress plus 90 credits. (14 years experience)

3 days at thanks giving, 2 weeks at christmas ( I must admit thats pretty nice) 1 week spring break ( I never get this one because of coaching baseball)

Day shift is laughable... in at 7:30 out at 6:30 or later.. more like shift and a half. (unpaid of course)

Most of those breaks during the school year other than the ones I mentioned above and federal holidays (We dont make these) are spent in meetings (I hate em) or conferencing (not much fun either).

I love letting people how teaching really is. I plan on writing a book when I finish... I have tons of note and a title... "Why Schools Fail"
Chapter 1 - Politicians... Chapter 2... State/federal mandated testing , Chapter 3... Misinformed Public... , there are others I wont bore you with.. but I'm serious. I have so many idiotic things I've seen in my time in this profession! Some are actually pretty funny too.

Again, believe what you want... I wont change everyones opinion. But I wont stop trying either...

Ba,Ha,Ha,Ha

Your killing me! I have worked for the county for 16 years under 6 different supervisers and five directors I have survived 2 layoffs while not having seniority. I give the public there moneys worth every day and some. I do everything from clean sh$t off toilet seats to work closely with show promoters to make sure everything runs smooth as a babies butt. things in between are to numerous to list them all but a few are plumbing, all facets of irrigation from the water source to the sprinkler heads, landscape design and construction, heavy equipment operation, all facets of building maintenance,sports field maintenance and yes I even pound nails like you.


All that and more for just $15.90 an hour.
Alot less then I am worth! But its for you the taxpayers.

There are losers in every profesion. I have seen some framers that smoked so much dope they couldnt do nothing but stare at the wood and forget what the hell they were supposed to do with it!



Those guys you see standing around dont last long. If you dont work you are sent down the road, and usually end up as a construction worker.

181 days!
Hell cutting timber I get 181 days in by july!!!

If you all want to talk about working hard go fall timber 320 + days a year...Hell not even that try it for 2 hours thats all!!

Work hard haaaaa Not even!!!!!

I agree, and its unfortunate that those are the ones that are seen as representative of the job. The guy holding the sign, smoking the cigarette, cold beer in the cooler for his break, pants hanging down so his butt is hanging out... not much fun having people think he is how all county workers are... I've seen plenty working their butts off too.

Its the same with teachers. There are some bad ones, and yes they are protected by the union to some extent. But they often get squeezed out... made to teach out of their subject area, or bounced from school to school, sometimes shunned by other teachers in their building... we dont like being represented that way either. I honestly think most people work hard for their money. How could someone get up and go to work every day to do a crappy job?

Did it for 2 years and it sucked. Fell trees and set choker. Nearly got killed a half dozen times. No thanks. Thats why I went back to school... That and framing houses in the winter. You must like it or you'd do something else. Its in no way as hard physically... not even close..... Different kind of hard.

TM
I come from a family of paper makers, loggers, heavy equip. operators, lumbermill workers, etc. and have given some time at each of them.

I also saw what their quality of life was like during retirement - so I went to school for something else - at the advice of those same family members.

Then a guy like you tells me I don't work hard. BS Timberman, you don't know me, and you likely don't know any of the others that statement was directed to. But since you are hidden behind the name "TIMBER MAN" you can throw crap out like that to try and justify why you can't hold your coffee cup in the morning until you hands loosen up.

You don't know how I work, and I suspect you have no idea what it's like to teach a class, give a presentation to your peers, put together a statistical report, or whatever the hell else those of us that don't fell timber do.

You likely could do it, but based on your statement, you haven't.

I have no problems working as a professional and could care less what someone thinks when I walk into Swains wearing dockers and buy a pair of loggers.

BTW, I am sure there are a lot of old timers that think "Logging" today would be a vacation day "Back in the Day".

JEFF D to the rescue!

I was trying to be civilized in my response to timber, why I dont know, I must have been feeling sorry for him... or thought the chainsaw fumes were causing the outburst. It was hard work, but I did it at 18yrs old... I have a couple of former football players that graduated last year are logging now. (One said 2 a day football practices were tougher... I suspect he's not toting a saw around though) I was thinking the same thing ... The old timers would laugh Timber right off the barstool! Hell that gas saw, and gravity do all the work they'd say! Them old loggers were the $hit. When I drive to Neah Bay I can see some of the notches cut in the old growth stumps where they stood on the boards to cut them big boys by hand!

Them guys and coal miners had some of the toughest work ever I think. Not many PH.D's in them jobs!

I believe my gramma summed it up best though...

"Ya either work with your back, or ya work with your brain.... And if ya have half a brain, ya wont work with yer back!"

Man this got way off topic.

Ha!

Well I spent 20 years of my life making trees fall and suppling wood and fiber to folks!

Glad you can talk like loggers have no meaning in life! Its an honest way to make a living and I was the 4th! generation. My father fell timber for 50 years and has no problem holding his coffee cup nor out hiking many young uns while hunting.And Mr Dodd he has a great retirement because he saved! not because he had a job with all the benis and retirement but he worked hard SAVED and invested!

I wasnt one of the lucky ones! 3 years ago I smashed my right leg and after a few surgeries and many injections to fix it. I am now disabled enough that a life in the woods isnt going to happen..I start school on the 22nd of sept. for 3 years to become something I never wished! An indoor worker!!! I willl never be able to work hard labor so I guess its gotta be a desk job inside.


.Just a thanks to those that put there life on the line..not to save yours but just to give you the lumber and ass wipe you buy.


.

I wasn't going to post after the thread took a turn for the worse, but after reading what micropterus101 had to say I just couldn't let a fellow fisherman down.

Micropterus101- now I'm not one to tell someone what to do, but man you either need to get an attorney or a better union rep. I noticed at 12:37am today you were making "$20.52 after taxes" and this afternoon at 9:58 your making $15.90. That's pretty rough and a good county employee like yourself shouldn't have to put up with that Then again maybe you did a boo boo today

Sorry, I saw that and just couldn't resist razzing ya. I figure you meant to type $20.52 before taxes.

Hey micro,
I am glad that the county is taking care of the cash cow in such manner.Some how I do not find it hard to believe that you are a good asset to the county.

I do not know about your rejects becoming home builders but sure if it works for you.I would rather look back at the end of the day and see what I have done than think of the **** I wiped all day.
I would smoke dope at work but I spend all day looking for my pencil is my usuall answer that request.

I am currios though as I never checked the web page.How much of our county taxes do you get?Is it twenty something or the more martyrish fifteen something an hour. Do not want an answer but I am begining to see why this info should be made avalable to the public.

Predator dawg,
Its pretty sad that you beleive that only money can make a person better. What ever happened to ethics. In an economy thats hurting and alot of people are losing there jobs or taking a pay decrease just to keep there job. You say pay teachers more to get better quality people. I say they for the most part are doing ok for now when the economy picks up than try to squeeze the tax payers for more$$$. And I do have friends that teach.
And doing quite well at there current rate of pay.

AuntyM
I think you are misunderstanding what Elkrun and myself are trying to say here. (As I understand it anyway - that "Inflection" thing can be difficult")

My take on what has been posted to TM is that we do have respect for his career, but want to make sure he understands where others who choose different careers are coming from.

I felt like TM's attitude kida sucked when I first read his post.

TM - I wasn't stating your father couldn't retire on his savings, I was really relating back to my both my grandfathers health after their careers ended.

I am sorry to hear about your industrial accident. Your work ethic will likely land you a good job once you done with school. Hope you like it more than you think you will.

I am not a teacher, but I do see how hard teachers work, and I think the kids in PA are lucky to have a guy with an attitude like elkrun's.

AuntyM - I am now sure you totally misunderstood what I was trying to say, and maybe you still do. I have enjoyed reading your posts on other threads, so I'm sure my wording didn't covey my message well.

Elkrun, Now I'm being to civilized. We'll find out I guess in a few more posts.

Elkrun,
So according to you if you work your back for a living you only have half a brain!!
Well I do work my back for a living (a choice I made). But with my half a brain I did graduate high school five months early with a 3.8 gpa and also did two years of comminity collage while working full time. Boy what could I have acomplished if I had a whole brain.

could someone email the public link that was censored. I work for the state and I am curious if my name is listed. Thanks In Advance.
Moderator,!! was it necessary to censor a link that is OBVIOUSLY a state provided PUBLIC, OPEN RECORDS, link. Kinda a wierd reaction to exchanging public information.
This has been an intriguing thread
talljeeper@yahoo.com

TJ,
just sent it to you.

I posted that on my last post.

'cause we aren't all badmuthafarkers like TM. Hey Kev........can we call you "college boy" now?

A little perspective on this.
260 days a year=2080 hrs=full time job
181 days a year=1448 hrs=part time job

Pay scale for PT job as follows
$21000=$14.50 hr
$25000=$17.26 hr
$30000=$20.71 hr
$35000=$24.17 hr
$40000=$27.62 hr
$45000=$31.07 hr
$50000=$34.53 hr
$55000=$37.98 hr
$60000=$41.43 hr
$65000=$44.88 hr

And in the Port Angeles school dist. the list shows 302 employees with only 7 people making under $30000 that would be 2.32% of the employees.
And I would agree the those 7 people may need a raise.
I didnt figure it out but my guess would be the average wage to be around $32 an hr.
Not to bad for a part time job ya think.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AuntyM:
[QB]

I think it's a lame argument. Loggers work harder. Teaching is more challenging.


AuntyM
This is where I am confused. I don't know how you got this impression from posts either elkrun or I posted. I know that was not an argument I intended to present.

I guess some of us people with only half a brain and no masters degree dont understand what it is to someone. Yea RIGHT!! Good post AuntyM

It is an example of where you misunderstood.

I don't feel any of my posts have implied that, as you stated: "Loggers work harder. Teaching is more challenging" (or whatever profession you want to thow into that last spot)

Also, I don't think I "went off" on TM any more than he "went off" me (I felt included in his comments to elkrun)

Also, you stopped short of quoting the line where I attempted to let TM know that I wasn't just here to flip him Sh*^t. I wasn't, but I wasn't about to just let the his comments go w/o a reply.

I will leave your comments about why I'm not a logger, etc., alone and write it off to you sticking up for a friend.

That's about all I can say, and about as civil as I can say it.

I sure hope Timberman doesnt damage his leg anymore than it is when he is trying to remove it from the rear end of a pair of dockers.

Foot removal

Nah knee is feeling better now!

Maybe I should look at people that wear dockers like people look at me when I wear riggin cloths?!?!?

The repect that "some" educated people have for others that are not educated but work HARD for a living is a shame!!!

And to those teachers that so truely hate me!
And say I cant "deal" with teaching kids! I just spent the better part of a day with my sons class not only helping them learn but a speech on wood products which was the subject of the week... TM


Thanx Marsha!!!!!

You know Iam a good person thats all that counts!!!!

OK Duraboat, that was funny.

AuntyM, point taken. I know that email/posting correspondence is risky.

And Timber Man, I don't think there are any of "those" people in this thread. I certainly don't feel that way.

Sorry. I have been trying to delet this, but instead it seems to be multiplying,

Please see below.

The more I try to erase the more I make it worse. Sorry!

CFM: I mistakenly posted the above mess of posts thinking I was on another thread. Then when I tried to delet it I made things worse.

But, your comments, are, as usual, unecessairily hateful, illogical and silly. You made my point tho with you generalization about writers. I guess in your muddled world you can easily lump all folks of a given profession into one pot. Some folks just think they know it all and that anyone who offers a diffrent opinion is obviously wrong. I don't even mind that, but your responses worry me. You have so much anger. Do consider getting some help. You will have a stroke if you don't calm down a bit. This stuff isn't that important.

If you must answer this please try to do so without name calling scatalogical refrences or similar sillyness.

Hmmmmm.....

2 + 2 = 12


no, no..........

2 + 2 = 22

no, no...........

2 + 2 = 3 too many opinions

yeah, that's it !

finally a post by cowlitz under 10 words... and I actually under stood what he said...

Just funnin with you CFM

Aunty

My mother has told me to always tell the truth!

So I must tell you the truth on this reply.

You got to remember that you are not this boards mothers

Back down just a little, and it us learn what we must! Your impute is usually appreciated, to a point. and you already made your point

Coming in now and overeating like a good mother would, will do nothing but distract from the original intention of this thread, and it will not do anyone any good!

You may, or may not like it, agree with it, or accept it, but you need to let people, at times, work out their own answers and solutions to our problems and issues.

Like I have taken your advice on many occasions, and times, you should consider doing so on this thread.

But knowing you, that probably isn't going to happen. I hope that I am wrong on this one!

WE know that you have personal friends involved in this debate, but they can, and are handling their end of it just fine!

ps; Aunty, did you think thay my post was against TM?????

Cowlitzfisherman

Aunty

We all know your passion about how you dislike what WT is doing, but like this thread, people will only care about it so long before they move on to other issues. Each of us has our own passions that we care dearly about. I just have a lot more then you

Move around a little, and give it a break before you guys bulldog the issue again. Even with my passion for the Cowlitz, I still find lots of other issues that board members find interesting enough to keep a thread going. Spreading out your concerns will also bring much more interest to the board and your guys cause (just my opinion). I can't please all the members, so I don't even try to, I just try to be myself and tell it how I see it. That by no way means that my point of view is the right or the correct one (darn, I said it again), but it opens the door up for debate.

Debating the issue seems to bring more to this board then just complaining about something and not doing anything about it. Many times people will accuse me of doing that because they can not debate the facts or the merit of the issue without getting into the emotions of the issue.

I have to give elkrun credit for doing a very respectful job of debating his views even those I do not agree with him. He did a lot of homework and did a pretty good job of expressing his views. That's what's keeps a thread going in my opinion.

And as a teacher, elkrun earned somting that he didn't know before about the Public Discloser Act and state law that he may use later in his own job.

Aunty, WT will get there day!

And yes, I did know that Timber Man agreed with me on this post and that is exactly why I said;" WE know that you have personal friends involved in this debate, but they can, and are handling their end of it just fine!
ps; Aunty, did you think that my post was against TM????? "


Thanks again TM for your support on this issue! You have what many do not....Common sense!

PS; Aunty, do you know how to play chess? If not you should learn, because you would like the moves

Cowlitzfisherman

CFM,
You forgot this one ^ .....

Man, you have way too much free time

Some very good points and perspectives on this issue. So far, IMO, the public has the right and the responsibility of knowing where public funds are spent. Exaxctly where they are spent! The site creator stated nepotism as the reason the information was created. That's one out of many reasons to list the information.

There is waste, fraud, theft, ect. in all types of bussiness. And the private sector has people and processes to prevent or expose the problems. Making the information public is the process that keeps govt. accountable.

There are obviously a number of govt. employees on this site. Enough to get the plug pulled anyway..... Good luck with that!

Now you know how the rest of us feel when trying to follow your posts.

Cupo
You still read them???????

Cupo and ltlCleo,
I think that there are alot of board members that do read CFM's threads and many that respect his views.
I recieved seven e-mails yesterday from board members asking me to forward the cencered link to them. Which I did with the exception of one that had a dead e-mail address.This tells me Alot of members want to see what CFM had posted in the first place.
And if either of you ever fish on the Cowlitz you should be thanking him for the work he does for that river and not giving him a hard time in my opinion.

ltlCleo:

Too funny. I finally decided it's a waste of my time to read his goofy diatribes. He will probably answer us with some lengthy outburst that would make a logic teacher roll his eyes, but I won't be reading it.

surecatch you figure out how to use the deleate button yet??Well at least you found the right thread this time

Thanks Duro. Yes I think I have it figured out. This aging isn't for sissys.

Oh you caught that Aunty
Sorry but I just about lost it when I saw that

In the last couple days I have spent alot of time looking at that web page with calculator in hand. And in my opinion there are quite afew people working for the state (some of which req. degrees) that are under paid. But with all the time I have spent looking I really cant see that the education system is one of them except for a very small percentage of them.It looks like the state spends more on education than anything else.

AuntyM,
Do you think Walmarts stock holders would allow that??
Buy the way are you and CFM related you guy go back and forth like brother and sister?

Aunty....what can I say to that!

Cowlitzfisherman

heard them on the radio talking to a sailor today that was an E-4 and he was saying that his wife was on WIC and how he didn't make very much.
Until someone that was in the navy called in

Turns out this guy was getting free base housing and $1800 month. He said he was able to put money in savings every month and yet he was still collecting assistance from the state.

duro,
I do not need to thank cfm for [Bleeeeep!].I have been to his pet river once that was enough.

So seven people requested the link?So do any of them want to stand up and say they needed that link for anything more than to nose around in somebodys personal buisness.Gee lets go see how much joe neighbor makes hee hee hee.That is the only purpose that link is doing here on this site.Nice to know you guys get off on such things.I do not.

Wait!!!

Before you can post it, let me read what that little head of yours is thinking of right now!

Your going to write back and say "That's exactly my point cfm!

Now how did I figure that one out????????

I think I heard it from the "rock wall"

Now you can go fishing


Cowlitzfisherman

wind bag,
Just got back from fishing thank you and to my surprise a reply that has nothing to do with what I posted this morning...by the way do not know cupo just liked what he had to say.

Once again..those people that are requesting the link what are you doing with the link..snooping or actually serving a constructive purpose.

And the lil'white haired dog continues to mindlessly yip yap away.

CFM, before the woman who emailed you gets too excited about how much her ex is making, she should know that the salaries given are outdated. The wage by my name on that site is somewhere between 6 and 12 months old.

I brought up unemployment and welfare because you didn't. You think we need to know how much every state employee is making, so why not every welfare and unemployment recipient? How about those getting breaks on college tuition? How about WIC? How about people who are getting medical care on DSHS's dime? How about the older people you claim are getting out of property taxes? My money is subsidizing all of them so I should get all their names and how much they're getting, right?

My main complaint about the website is that it gives my full name. I don't like the idea of friends or family members of inmates being able to look up my first name and middle initial just by knowing my last name and job title. It puts them one step closer to personal info like my address.

Out dated?

I don't think it's out dated! It really depends on when they wrote their PDA request, and when the state agencies gave the site requestor the information that was asked for. Most PDA's are required by law to be answered in fairly short order. You didn't say which branch of state government you work for, so I can't tell when the PDA was requested, or how old your job information is. And that goes for the "mom" that emailed me too. It sounds like her x may have worked for law enforcement, but I am not quite sure about that one.

Either way, like most posts have indicated, the person is likely even making more now then he was a year ago or two ago! I bet you that she will do a PDA now if she is still in doubt. So watch out suckers, the old lady coming to get you all

Thanks cupo for making a civil reply that needs and deserves a civil response.


Cowlitzfisherman

I've been out of the loop for a couple of days... looks like I missed a ton! Sorry, every now and then I need to go fishing or hunting...

cfm - did you ever think this would hit over 200 posts? holy cow. We will never agree, but this has been impressive! I wonder what the record is?

Tm- sorry if I offended you. I know a lot of people in the logging profession, I respect what you do. your post pi$$ed me off, so I relatiated.... I'm a math teacher, I'm not perfect.

Aunty - read the above comment. But I took a lot before I lost my composure lashed back... sorry to disappoint.

Jerry G - It must have taken some restraint on this one!!! Sorry if I pushed the envelope!

anyone else - I got sucked in again!!! I promised myself I'd never get involved in a NFR again. I did pretty good since the war stuff, but this one got my hackles up. I'm back on the wagon... you all can keep your nfr's. I'm sticking to the fishing stuff.

Incidentally- I filled my deer tag (archery) today, and am going fishing tomorrow... maybe I'll post tomorrow, but it will be a generic, plain jane, politically correct, fishing report. nothing more.

The 1st part of that sounds very "Femministic" to me, which is just as bad as "Chauvenistic" Aunty...... And let me guess here, I bet you fart with the best of them too??

MC

As usual Cleo you are so FOS! We have known forever what Senators, Congressmen, Judges, and the President make.... Why is it any different for any other public servant?
For heavens sake........

MC

I do have to agree with his point here..... I think we have a right to know the pay for the position, but the personal info should not be included........
As far as taxpayers knowing about welfare payments etc. AuntyM.... They are not "Public Servants"....They do not WORK for the taxpayers, they only COST the taxpayers.... Big difference. Besides, at least with the public employees I know I am getting something for my buck.... The others cost and we get nothing for the money we spend on them.....

MC

Cfm,
Come on you can do better that!As the world turn???If it is true then this lady needs more than this website,like a life.That is the justification guys????

It is being used simply to nose around in peoples personal lives and that is it.sad.

I am done with this thread as my point is made and your crazy need to have the last word has wasted enough space on the internet already.Yap..Yap

I'm the one that wrote that to CFM and if you would read what I wrote I said that my ex has refused any "extra" help due to the fact of my loss in pay and 6 months of being unemployed.

I used to make the same as him when we got divorced. While I was at work doing late night end of month inventory, my son was a victim of a crime. My ex chose to ignore that it ever happened, chose to not go to the counseling or the police interviews or to court. I chose to take a pay cut and get a Monday thru Friday 8-5 job for my son, so that he could get better and have someone there for him.

Go Figure, I used to work Fast Food and made $35k/year. Now working an office job, I make about half that. With the same support that I was getting at $35k/year I have made it, because I had to and because DCS would not review my case because I had an administrative order that I would have to go back to King County Court to change (notice that I live in Snohomish County, down to downtown Seattle is an awful drive). What a joke. So, then in the middle of all that I lose my job. Still no help from my ex. When I ask him to please just sit down and play nice and figure it out ourselves, no way. When I ask for even a little bit of help it's a big old sob story about how King County Parks is getting cut back and such and how they are facing layoffs, etc. He makes almost $5k more a year last year than he did in 2000 when we got divorced, while I'm making almost half of what I was to take care of OUR boy.

DCS cannot do anything about a court administrative order until 3 years has passed. This poses a problem for someone that might have the need to raise support but doesn't know whether the ex makes enough to be able to raise it. It has to a certain amount for them to raise it at all.

So, going back to court without knowing what the ex is making is not only expensive and a huge battle especially when you live in a different county then it's even more of a challenge. Especially when you don't have the money in the first place to be able to hire a high and mighty lawyer.

Also, when asking for a review, you have to fill in what you "think" your ex-spouse is making on the worksheets. If you really have no idea due to change in circumstances then it makes it really hard to fill in that part. In any legal matter, making sure you have the correct information the first time is very important.

Even if the info is 6-12 months old if you're into the 2-3rd year and you haven't known since the divorce what your ex made, it's a place to start when filling out the paperwork.

This information was helpful, yes. Have I ran down to DCS and filed the paperwork now that it's been the 3 years, NO. And my ex doesn't even know that I know how much he made. I like to think things through before I jump, that was the information I needed to know whether it was worth causing a big old stink between the ex and I or not.

DAMN!!! I've been so busy HERE www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP3543.jpg all last month I've missed this thread???

Love that 12lb Maxima

: The infamous North River sled thread had how many posts?

First of all I understand all about how the law works in regards to child support. I handled my divorce myself and my dad is a contitutionalist. I would have had DCS review my case had they been able to but they couldn't due to the administrative order. I agree that they shouldn't put full names up on the site, although it was very helpful to me. My ex got his job right when we seperated and had it not had his name, I wouldn't know what his position title was.

I do appreciate CFM's post of the info though for the reason that without having to piss off my ex by having to go to court to request his income records, I now have have the info that I need to fill out the paperwork to see whether the child support will raise enough for DCS to change it. It has to raise by $100/mo or they won't touch it. If not, then I don't need to unneccessarily piss off the ex and make things even more difficult for my son.

so now Bobs fine board is a divorce court.

a new and very sad low IHO

AuntyM,
CFM only posted a linc to a web site he did not create it and did not attach the names.
The site belongs to Louis Bloom and was created using the freedom of information act.
If you look at the site and find the "2002 city of Forks" scroll to the bottom of that page and you will find a copy of the letter Mr. Bloom sent to obtain the information used on his site. There are also lincs on his site to goverment sites that list names also.
CFM has no controll over the contents of these sites he only provided us with the linc.
Do I think the names need to be listed? NO
Do I think the info on the linc is important? Yes names or no names.

I am starting to get the feeling yhat I will have the last word here shortly

Oh great - now CFM is posting as a woman!

Hey, didn't I meet you in a chat room once?

We know how close you and goose are!!

So I understand your concerns more then most
will !

Good luck Aunty

Nothing like the furry of a woman!!

Cowlitfisherman

Jeez, I cannot believe this went eight pages.

Hey so where's that link? I am a government employee and would be curious to see if I'm on there...

i think it was alittle over 500 post.

gooose, i did notice you posted this at 10:30 on a sunday night , from now on can you try to go to bed alittle earlyer so you are more alert at work so us tax-payers will get the most for our money, thanks.

If the website that reveals all those names and salaries had a religious affiliation on it we could get this baby to go over 500 posts easy...and political party???WOW 1,000 maybe..Can you stand the fire Jerry? Divorce>? Child support? geez! makes my WT arguments look so bland.

Too true Grandpa - made even more so by being able to view you and your King in their glory. I agree with the guy on the other thread. Don't matter what you are wearing if you're holding a big chrome King.

Aunty, keep your chin up. You and I disagree on occasion but we keep it civil. That's a lot of what matters in my book.

Why is it that it is never an option for divorcee's to let the father take care of the child for a while till she gets back on her feet?
Aunty speaks of having the "Advantage" of being born a woman, but go to divorce court and suddenly that advantage disappears into the "poor me, I am only a woman" attitude.
Not making excuses for your ex, but if you chose to have custody, you have to take the good with the bad.....

MC

..... And I see *@*#! Cleo is still reading this... He heh!

oHHHHH! He said "Furry" of a woman...

MC

I have a hard enough time getting him to take his visitation in the first place.

LOL seriously, give up the "men are hugely taken advantage of" trip.

Really that's a biased remark... not all us ex-wives are B*tches. Sometimes it really is the ex-husband that's the B*tch :p

WhiteDog left me for the neighbors dog . Uhhhhh hmmmm is this a relevant post....seems so ?

LMAO good one goose

Gooose

I thought you would like to read thiis one since you are so concerned!

"The Everett herald ran a story about my website. "

7669.cfm

Published on HeraldNet.com: 9/15/03

Public salaries in Net spotlight

By Scott Morris
Herald Writer

CAMANO ISLAND -- Louis Bloom's computer hobby has taught him that government is generally doing a good job.

"But you might not get that impression on the first glance of his Web site, ...."

After all, the 54-year-old Camano Island septic-system installer spends 10 hours a week posting the salaries of just about every public employee he can think of.

Some of the government employees don't appreciate Bloom's spotlight, but he insists that he means no offense and has no real political agenda.

"There's no political comment," Bloom said. "Basically, I think government does a good job compared to private, deregulated business."

The Web site is just meant to give people information and draw their own conclusions, Bloom said.

That explanation didn't satisfy some of the people who found their names and salaries listed on his Web site. Earlier this year, Bloom turned his attention to
Snohomish County employees, and his public documents request stirred up some resentment, as this e-mail from one county worker shows:

"Did it ever occur to you that putting honest, hard-working citizens' employment/salary information, along with their names, on the Web might creep them out?"
the employee wrote to Bloom. "It's a little like having your pants pulled down in public. It's no secret what's under there -- it just feels invasive to be publicly
undressed, by a stranger, and without your consent."

Bloom said he is sensitive to that criticism.

"I got lots of e-mails from Snohomish County employees, some of it quite disapproving -- almost threatening," Bloom said.

In response, Bloom said he would delete names if the employees -- especially police officers -- request it. The general public seems to approve, though. Bloom
said 75 percent to 80 percent of the response he gets is positive. The site gets between 500 and 800 visits every day.

"If I was a media journalist, I don't think I would delete anybody's name, but I'm a private person and I understand how somebody could be irritated," Bloom
said.

That gets to one underlying motivation.

"I wish that somebody in the media would do this," he said.

Bloom doesn't quite fit the stereotype of a computer nerd. He didn't even know anything about computers until 1996. Soon after, he learned how to construct a
Web site.

His curiosity about a Washington State Patrol investigation of a case in Olympia led Bloom to make his first open records request.

He found the process easy and was pleasantly surprised at how transparent government information can be if you know how to access it.

"I like the idea that it's free and that people can use that information," Bloom said.

When he saw a book published by the state listing all state employees with their job titles and salaries, his new hobby was born.

Bloom started in 1997 with a list of state employees and has gradually focused more locally on county and city governments and agencies in recent years.

His next direction will be the federal employees of Washington state.

Although he insists his Web site has no political agenda, Bloom freely admits he is a liberal Democrat who supports Howard Dean for president.

Although he's not a public employee, Bloom does include a link on his Web site to a copy of his 2002 federal income tax return.

Bloom was also open when asked for a few of his own conclusions.

"I was surprised originally at how few the number of employees are in a city or county," Bloom said. "I'm kind of surprised how little beginning teachers make.
They should make a little more. And I'm surprised by how much some port agency employee salaries are in Tacoma and Seattle."

But the important thing to Bloom is that the information is available.

"Maybe people think I'm somehow bashing government employees, saying they get paid way too much," Bloom said. "Maybe some of them do, but people can
figure it out for themselves and decide whether it was too much or too little."

Reporter Scott Morris


PS; don't foreget to let your dog out gooose! He's waging his tail for you

Wow 75% to 80% approval of the site thats great. With that kinda approval the site should be around for a long time.

This is like watching a train wreck, a very long, convoluted, uniteresting train wreck. Nobody knows what track the train is on or where its heading but they all jump on the train! Some wish to get off, others push the throttle for more speed and some yell about the approaching curve yet none listen or care.

Some things just need to be taken outback and put out of our misery. Is this thread one of those things?? you decide.

by the way, I wanted to make sure I got my name on here in case it breaks the record!!

BD,
The thread had a good purpose untill the linc that it was about was cencored out. It had been pretty interesting.

The only purpose I saw in the link was some strange form of voyuerism. As far as the thread, well the directions and tangents have been many, though not particularly interesting.

What kind of prize does cfm get if this thread passes the 300 mark?