Funny how the left works sometimes

It's OK to have an opinion as long as it matches ours. But we have to swallow them teaching that it is OK for Sally to have two mom's?

Hutch's kids go to school with mine. He is a fun guy to talk with. Played for the hawks way back when.

Tuesday, June 7, 2005

Teachers union objects to Hutcherson's church on school grounds
Antioch pastor should find new meeting place, leader says

By JOHN IWASAKI
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

About 3,500 people regularly attend Sunday services at Antioch Bible Church, making it one of the larger congregations in the Seattle area, but the church doesn't have a permanent home.

For the past six years, Antioch has met at Lake Washington High School in Kirkland, an arrangement that keeps the church out of mortgage debt and provides the Lake Washington School District with about $140,000 in annual rental income.

But the teachers union wants to end that relationship, saying the district shouldn't associate with the Rev. Ken Hutcherson, Antioch's outspoken pastor, who claimed credit for Microsoft's former opposition to a gay rights bill in the state Legislature.

The union leadership says Hutcherson's presence at Lake Washington High implies that his beliefs are condoned by the district, goes against the district's human dignity policy, brings unwanted attention to the school and promotes intolerance.

"The Lake Washington Education Association strongly condemns the bigoted views of Dr. Ken Hutcherson," union President Kevin Teeley wrote in the organization's recent newsletter.

While conceding that Antioch has the legal right to meet at the high school, Teeley called for public pressure to force Hutcherson off campus. Teeley has received a mixed response from his 1,500-member union.

Hutcherson is unequivocal. Because Teeley, who is openly gay, has called the pastor a bigot, "Can't I say he's the prejudiced one?" Hutcherson asked.

Teeley said his views are based on union policies and have nothing to do with his sexual orientation.

Lake Washington Superintendent Don Saul said the district has received about 12 to 15 letters questioning the district's position "in what they characterize as an 'environment of discrimination.' "



The district response is that free-speech rights control the issue.

"It comes down to almost an all-or-nothing situation, based on First Amendment jurisprudence," Saul said. "If we rent a facility for the use of a church, we can't typically restrict access to another group with which we have disagreements (over) the point of view they're expressing."

More than 10 churches rent district facilities, said Barbara Posthumus, the district's business services coordinator. Because of complaints about Antioch, the district is reviewing its rental policy, she said.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Washington receives about two complaints per year regarding a church's use of public schools.

State law requires school districts to make their facilities available to community groups, including religious organizations, when the facilities are not being used for school-related activities or programs.

Lake Washington gives top priority to school-sponsored activities, then to cities and non-profit youth organizations within the district. Non-profit adult organizations, including churches, have fourth priority. The district's policy states that authorization of facility use should not be considered an endorsement of the renter or its purposes.

The district bases its rental fee on a formula that considers space, time, utilities and custodial services. Antioch uses most of Lake Washington High for two Sunday services and pays $10,800 per month, or $13,500 for months with five Sundays. Besides the gymnasium, the church uses about 30 classrooms for Sunday school, a nursery and other activities.

Former Lake Washington High librarian Lee Bates, now at Inglewood Junior High, addressed the school board last night, upset at the treatment of a group of gay rights supporters who visited Antioch.

The activists were told they would have to sit in a separate section unless they removed their rainbow armbands. The visitors eventually chose to remove their armbands and sat wherever they wanted.

"It is not about the pastor's beliefs but his treatment of people that is in question," said Bates, husband of former Lake Washington Superintendent Karen Bates.

He cited the district's human dignity and harassment policies, which encourage respect and non-harassment of people, regardless of their sexual orientation, among other differences or characteristics.

In an earlier interview, School Board President Doug Eglington said the dignity policy pertains to how the district operates and to its employees, students and stakeholders.

"We don't feel we have the reach" to tell other organizations how to conduct themselves, he said. "We'd rather err on the side of allowing the community to use the spaces to the extent possible," he said.

Several Lake Washington High teachers said they feel like they can't criticize Antioch's presence because principal Mark Robertson attends the church.

Hutcherson said that if Antioch's relationship ever became detrimental to the school, "Mark would be the first to ask us to move. That's the kind of responsibility I expect from him."

Hey, as long as they let the Satanists meet there, too, I have no problem.

Do you?

I agree TK that the school board should stay out of trying to "micromanage" which types of churches use their facility. A good friend of mine goes to that church and they are trying to prevent taking on a large building fund by using the school.

They should let whatever group meet in the schools that wants too. It brings in income which our schools badly need. Also the pastor had the right to tell those protesters to remove their armbands, it was his choice and I guess many in his flock felt the same way. I actually found it more offensive that they would choose to protest during church, is there no respect left anymore?

That's just dripping with hypocritical irony.

Please explain yourself Gh, Wheres the hypocrytical irony. Last i checked churches were private organizations and had the right to uphold their own beliefs. In my family church is pretty important part of its make up and is treated with respect. I personally would be very offended if any group came in and protested in our church.

It wouldn't do any good to try and explain. Your above comments imply that you might not have been paying attention while sitting in your "private organization."

So your saying having a moral center of right and wrong is hypocrytical?
Or we should accept everything, so next time you see guys snagging or flossing don't condem them they are just doing what they tnink is right.

Won't work; don't even try. You're in the same league as bubble-boy and Krusty with backwards logic to boot.

I find the intolerence that some religions call morals offensive.
How many people do you think have been killed in the name of God?

Why single that one out BW. ?

------------------------------------------------------------

Williamtheriveroutlaw,

When Klinger (aka goharley) lectures you about morality, logic and your backward thinking because you say you believe in God and the Bible's teachings, just keep in mind that he's said that one of his favorite things to do every year is to prance around in a black leather skirt at the Solstice parade in Fremont.

To each his own.

"To each his own".

That is exactly right RB you should try and actually practice it.


TK, just the first one that came to mind.

Isn't there something in the Bible that says something like

"Love thy neighbor" I seem to have read that somewhere before.

BW,

Yes that is in there but as usual people use it without context both religous and non to make thier point. It does not work that way. There are prescribed rules for biblical interpretaion. You do not have to love they neighbor for many reason. There is a big difference between kill and murder. Please show me how Chritians are killing in the name of god today in this life. Otherwise your point cannot be relevant.

Tk, There was a very interesting show on the Discovery channel a couple Months ago about Europe's take on the war in Iraq. And God played into it quite a bit. Right or wrong makes no difference, seems that way to them.

One main reason are statements by our leaders that start with comments like," with Gods help". Our own President has used that phrase on occasion.

This may seem ridicules to some but really it's not. I don't know how much you have travled over seas but in countrys like France, and some others you will never hear comments like that made by thier leaders. You will not see students wareing crosses or other religous symbles of any kind in schools. Seperation of church and state are strictly enforced over there.

Therefore my statement was totaly relivent, in thier eyes we are killing in the name of God right now.


And I'm not going to get into a debate over interpitation of the Bible with you. I know there will be some wise cracks made here but I was raised a Catholic, went to Catholic school, and was an alterboy also. I have studied the Bible quite a bit. Some people want to take every word or phrase exactly as written. Maybe more people should look of the word "parable". One difference with me is I don't blow off anyone who dosn't belive in what I do. Unlike some here.

Krusty, you'll go to Hell for lieing.

BW - the interpretation of the Bible thing; Elvis just throws that around a lot in his endeavor to sound educated. The science is actually "hermeneutics" and pertains to all historical text. If you simply do a search on "interpreting the Bible" you'll get a different version and methodolgy from every sectarian whacko out there. His constant claim that there are "prescribed rules" is full of chyt. But then it is Elvis after all.

Thanks Harley it's nice of you to prove your ignorance for all of us on such a regular basis.

The rules of biblical interpretation are estabilshed by the Biblical research society and Dr. David L. Cooper first proposed them. They are non denominational and used by most biblical scholars.

BW it does not matter how you where raised if you do not use the 4 basic rules of biblical interpretatiuon then you are using a passage out of context.

If you say so TK.

The rules of biblical interpretation are estabilshed by the Biblical research society and Dr. David L. Cooper first proposed them. They are non denominational and used by most biblical scholars.


Now show me some proof with refences (other than yourself).

On another note, my son deploys to Afganistan for his third tour tomorrow, so I may not get back to this for a while.

BW,

What kind of proof?

BW -
The guy that is somewhat considered the "father" of Bible interpretation, or Scriptual hermeneutics is Friedrich Daniel Ernst Schleiermacher (1768-1834).

As I said earlier, google "Bible interpretation rules" and you'll come away with many different philosophies and views. Cooper's is just another one.

BTW, good luck to your son. Really sucks to see guys going on their second and third tours over there considering the war is barely two years old. Compare that to Vietnam that lasted 10 years and it was very uncommon to do more than one tour.

KK,


I posted the 4 basic rules last fall several times and even posted a link to a site or two. The good Dr. is gone now. If they do not use the 4 basic rules they would not pass what science calls "peer review"
I think it would do you all some good to look into it so you can either google yourself or seach the archives. I cannot imagine you guys questionsing a data source after the display on the other board Oh thats right do as I say not as I do.

Keep stroking it Harley maybe you will get something out of it

GH,
Love the sinner, Hate the sin. Its not intolerance to not want to associate with people who practice behaviors that you find offensive.

Actually the war in Afganistan has been going on almost 4 years, glad to see you are paying attention.

Prove this used by most biblical scholars.

Or is that a TK ism...........

Goharley, thanks just got of the phone with him back at Bragg. Last time of 8 months.

signed a proud dad..................

C'mon, KK. TK typed it.

Once TK explains to you how you have no understanding of Biblical interpretation, it will become obvious that he's much smarter than any other human.........including you. Just ask him.

Not very Jesus-like, either.

gvbest - pardon me for overlooking the fact his son was going to Afganistan rather than Iraq. Pointing that out suggests you feel three tours in four years to a war zone is acceptable? But believe me, I pay attention each and every day I go to work and interact with men and women preparing for their second and third tours to Iraq.

What Jesus did in some cases and what he commanded us to do are different. If you really wanted to get technical with an analysis, the pastors actions would be similar to Jesus running the merchants (not tax collectors my bad) out of the temple.

No, it would not.

Forgive me, but I don't see the typical neocon's "do as I say not as I do" trait in Jesus' actions.

By the way, it's "Jesus" with a capital J and no "a." So, please, if you're going to try and convince us you're an informed Christian show the proper respect and capitalize pronouns when referencing God and get the spelling right. If you want to be technical, that is.

all i wanna know is...when did they add the 'a' to Jesus?

like shootin ducks in a barrel, huh Aunty?

goharley. By me pointing out your mistake, in no way could be inferred as I find it acceptable. Was just pointing out that you must not have been paying attention, as you told someone the samething earlier in the thread, when they point of view was not the same as yours.

:rolleyes: Sheesh, what a stretch. Gonna have to add you to the list.

I was wrong in my analogy, it was the merchants, not tax collectors. Aunty M as for your tax collector analysis, it was trying to prove the attitude was correct, (coming to before God with humility) not the person. The gay rights protesters weren't coming in seeking forgiveness for their sins (sodomy is a sin) instead they were blatantly advertising it and showing a pridefull attitude with regards to it. Much different, if you wanted to choose a group to compare them too it would most likely be the phairisees. (excuse spelling, its been a while since sunday school)

Really. You drive all the way up from Salem just to attend church here? Or how else would you be so sure of their motives? Surely you're not basing your judgement from accounts of a liberally biased news media source.

And comparing the church visitors to the Pharisees simply because they support gay rights seems somewhat anti-Semitic. I think it's more appropriate to compare them to Americans exercising their First Amendment rights.

Sodomy, eh? I'd have a hard time believing you never once in your life participated in oral sex with a woman - giving or receiving. And when you did, I have a harder time believing you ran to your "private organization" and confessed your sins, begging forgiveness. But, maybe you did ....

Oh, by the way, intolerance is a sin, too.

KK,

"Thou shalt not kill"

All one has to do now is is look up all the passages that deal with Murder,Killing,death etc. and interpret them using perscribed rues. And the context becomes clear. They are not the same and the bible is very clear on this fact.

You only used on rule and one that you obviously do not under stand. Had you not been trying to decieve you would have posted the other rule that clarifies what to kill means. It means murder. Killing someon in a justifiable war is not murder is it?

Just wondering what are you NOT an authority on?

And by the way TK the Jewish religion and Catholic's do not reconize what you call nondeminational. Ovecourse I'm sure you understand my own religion better than me. :p

Wanna bet?

Jewish people do not belive that Christ was the was the son of God. They do not hold with anything to the contary. You will not find a lot of nondenominational any thing they will listen to. Strickly old Testement for them.

Catholic's have there own university's and acadimie's . They realy do not have anything to say about the King James Bible. Which is the one most often use in nondeminational serviece's and is studied by most experts. Catholic's use what in some times known as the
Geniva Bible.

As far as betting with you, I realy could not care less what you think.

Done with this

If you new what the rules where and how they where used you would see how your last post was foolish.

In other words, BW, if you don't subscribe to Elvis' methodology of Biblical interpretation derived from some obscure author you don't know what you're talking about. Or any facts from well known sources of non-partisan reputation with reams of scientific evidence to back it up for that matter. He won't believe a word of it. All he'll do is parse your post and make some discouraging remark about your character. That's the "Elvis defensive debate" tactic. Used in instances of cluelessness.... like most of the time.

And what do you call trying to minimize a standard of biblical interpretation. Oh thats right if Harley can minimize it for the drones here he can continue to post passages out of context to make his world work. Thereby getting dogpile posts from the drones which help valoidate his samll world. Might work for you Harley but it's complete BS and you get called on it everytime. BW just quit when he gets called on it.

See? As surely as the sun sets in the West...

What is interesting is how the debates shape up here. It is clear that people debate against the person and not the subject in most cases. The case of biblical interpertation makes that point really clear. Usually the paople against defined rules of interpretation are the Zealots. The God hates gays crowd. I thought you people did not like them. Now you defend their methods? You see with defined rules of interpretation it is impossible to twist the bible for ones own pupropse. It would be impossible for people to do what they have done here. Argue that Christians are hypocritical based on out of context use of passges like KK did with "thou shalt not kill" . If KK was familiar with the riules as he claimed he would have quoted all 4 and the passage in context with all other references to that passe. He did not he googled it and then used the passage just as he would have without the rules. If he believes that killing is against gods word why would he just cite the war as an example? Why would he not cite abortion, the death sentanc etc. If killing is against gods word how could he support abortion or a candidate like Kerry that clearly did. But I suppose like most things with liberals it only applies to the person you happen to be pointing the finger at that time.

Oh, yeah, and then he'll ramble on about something, contridicting himself and making weird obscure points that, evidently, only he is capable of understanding.

For someone that claims to have a college degree and a journalism background he communicates worse than a five-year-old. You guys notice that?

I say that if someone has a problem with what the Bible says they should take it up with God and not just belittle those who believe and revere it (the Bible).

"You guys notice that?"

Ah yes safety in numbers. Harley graduated from the school of " If more of my friends agree with me I must be smart and every one else is stupid" specifically when caught it a contradiction.

That would be if I took offense to it AM. I don't . I just pointed it out to make a point about the hypocrisy because of peoples ignorance of the topic.

Krusty, if you and your NAMBLA group want to meet there, it's fine with me. Really. I don't even mind the Statanists; but then I keep all my chickens and goats penned up for my own sacrifices.

I don't doubt that Elvis isn't offended by being proven wrong on a daily basis. I think he actually enjoys being ridiculed in a self-deprecating sort of way. That's kind of sad.

AM,

Sure you can. If you try and speak to something you know nothing about and take a position on it you would be hypocritical if your false position countered your previous positions.

In this case biblical interpretation as propsed would eliminate zelots and psuedo religions from using the bible to defend thier doctrine. i.i. the god hates gay christians. It also would include the people that use the bible to promote or defend anti Christian beliefs. Again as in this case. Biblical interpertation is not something one can fake or pretend to understand. One has to be well versed in the rules and be able to know where and if any passage is refrenced in or by another passage through out the new and old testament. I doubt any of the Christain bashers here can even come close. Saying one was rasied in a religion is about as useful as someone claiming to be black because they had been to Africa.

Precisely, Aunty. It just like claiming to fully understand the Bible and it's interpretation because one follows a set of arbitrary rules concocted by one of a thousand guys with a doctorate in theology. It's the same as claiming to be an expert nutritionist because one follows the rules of Dr. Atkins. :rolleyes:

AM,

It is not hard to know when someone is using a bible passage out of context. As is the case in this thread. It has nothing to do with a different belief system. It either is or is not in context. If someone post "thou shalt not kill" they need to undersand what the generally accepted meaning of the word kill is in the context of the bible by any definiton( Jewish, catholic, luthern ,morman etc). Once they do then they would have to ascribe to that meaning in all biblical context . That would preclude supporting abortion among a few other beliefs. So if the posters truely believe in the biblical maning of "thou shalt not kill" they need to be anti abortion or they are hypocrits at face value.

As a very good example look this one up
"Judge not, lest ye be judged" you use it out of context and do not understand the biblical meaning of this passage. Otherwise you would not have posted it.

AM,
No you do not otherwise you would not have posted it. It is speaking specifically to salvation. Have I said anything about someones salvation?

The context in which you use it would preclude anyone from questioning anything any one said. 10,000 miles in how you use it and it's intent.

And BTW you would be guilty of your own charge by your post to me using your definition.

How about 3? It doesn't really matter if there are 3.5 million in the church, and 3.5 satanists, if they are an NPO, then they should be able to rent the school's facilities.

Now, what do you figure the chances are that nobody would complain when the satanists had their meeting on school grounds?

Yes, we do have the right and the authority to judge the behavior of others as long as we honor and obey His Word doing it. Jesus is the only one who can judge is speaking to judging whether someone is or is not saved. Neither you , I nor anyone else who has ever drawn a breath (except Jesus) or ever will draw a breath has the authority to say whether another has or has not been saved. Only Jesus can make that judgment since only He can give Salvation.

IF you read the bible it and not just look at the words AND use the TOTAL of what it says, not just the pieces that seem to fit an agenda. the whole purpose of rules of interpretation.

I will bet any ammount that you would like to pu t up that any minister,preacher or biblical scholar would support my view over yours.

"Now, what do you figure the chances are that nobody would complain when the satanists had their meeting on school grounds?"

So free speach is limited because one does not agree with somone elses right? I thought you had to deny someone elses right to be guilty? Now just thinking it gets you there. I remember you saying something differently a few threads back about Muslims and christians. Imagine that another fly caught in a trap of his own making

AM
Put it up then. I'll match any amount you want.

Big difference in reading and undersatnding .


I know it is what you where taught. Imagine something changing in the past 40 years and you are on your way.

BTW AM in case you did not hear Columbus was not the first to discover AMerica

You stupid ass.

Let me translate from simple English to simpler English for you.

The christians are offended that people complain when the church meets on school grounds.

Likely, the same christians would snivel and whine if the Satanists met on school grounds.

So, they're both phucking idiots. Just like you.

AM,

You where taught literal interpretation which is how most people are taught(I would also assume with a bit of the golden rule thrown in) Which is the way you are supposed to use the bible unless there is evidence somewhere else in the bible that a literal interpretation does not work. In this case the subject in contect is salvation and no one can do that but god. So it is impossible for man to" judge" another. Man can clarly have opinions about another man as long as they hold to biblical teachings.

See? I told you. He likes it when he's proven to be a fool. Man, it's kinda creepy.

AM,

You can post all the verse you want it does not change the fact that your quote is dealing with salvation. If by your own words lest ye be judged what about your comments about Bush, cheny etc. If you truely believe what you post you have submitted that yuou want to be judged that harshly.


KK,

Speaking of bearing false wittness , You bring up WMD but you leave out the other 9 reasons for going to war in Irag. I beleive thouy doth protest to much.
"I pray for their souls, and don't kill people myself" if your votes and your dollars lead to someone's death you you don't think you play just as much a part of it as anyone? Reference Jesus own death for examples.
Must be nice to beable to create your own reality

What does you not knowing anyone that I know have to do with anything?
"(that we have heard of )" Who is we. Has the KK, SOTD, Stam clique become the secret order of PP and everone is accountable to them? Here is the truth pal. I in my life have never cared what anyone else thought all I cared about was the truth.

Back to bearing false wittness again:
"yet you are sure that we are all:
1: Not as smart as you
2; Haven't accomplished as much as you
3: Don't know as much about anythin' as you.
4: Are all hypocrites"

There is the we again.

Your opinion not truth.

Looks like I touched a tender spot or a bunch of them.



KK, White, liberal, We

"I'm not the so called saved Christian disobeying his God, you are."

And that is exactly why you do not know the meaning of the passage. And again you are judging me based on your interpretation.

AM,

Put your money where your mouth is?

The Christains are not "offended" (to use DanS' word) that some people complain that they meet on school grounds, they just want the same rights afforded to them that any non-profit group is entitled to.

The Lk. Washington school district's charter says that any non-profit group can rent the school when it's not being used for regular classes--therefore as long as the 3 Satanist hypothetically referenced are set up as a non-profit group-- they would be free to meet there if they can afford the $160,000 rental fee. Anyone that objected to them being there should take up the specific charter (that allows non-propfit groups to rent school grounds) with the school board and not the group meeting there.

KK,

Did you ever stop and notice that my views are different from "we". That does not make my views right or wrong just different. Conversly the sum of "we" does not make my views wrong or right either. . Each view stands on it own merits. The clique comment stands. When I see someone critical of others, outsiders for doing one thing but not their friends it meets the definition.

I'll bet his wife and kids can sure feel the love. :rolleyes:

Harley,
I bet you are encouraged by the Michael Jackson verdict