Lets' see if we can all agree on anything II.

Have we or have we not found WMD's in Iraq?

The "non-spun" answer is no.

they also found a hardware store that carried ten penny nails.

all of what you listed are 'potential' wmd's, in the same way that iron ore is potential steel.

No!!!!! Notta!!! Zilch!! Zero Found!! Not a One!! Even Fox News can't show us any that were found. Case closed!

Bush, and Rumsfeld both say they didn't find any.I'm sure you can beleive anything they tell us.

Dosen't matter anyway. They now say it wasn't really about the WMDs anyway.

Keep one foot in the past at all times.

Yes lets forget the past after all what could we possibly learn from it? That the reasons the adminstration had for going to war have been proven wrong, that the prewar evidence had been fixed by the adminstration, that we would be welcomed with flowers as liberators by the Iraqies. Instead lets forget that Rumnfeld is an idiot, Chenny is a liar and GW is just plain stupid. Heard him called Chimp in charge yesterday. Yes let us not keep a foot in the past let us instead look forward. Forward to the lowest poll numbers any second term president has ever had, oh by the way Chenny's poll numbers were down also to 27% with only one in four republicans approving of his preformance as V.P. Now the republicans are eating their own. 75% of republicans do not approve of their own Vice President. The public cannot believe anything the adminstration says as they have proven time and again to be untrustworthy. Let us not forget about the current problems that DeLay is having and what about Ney, he is being investigated as a result of testiomy from a former lobbiest. Yes let us move forward and forget the past. Can't we all just get along?

Tell me where it says weapons of mass destruction was the only reason we went to Irag. Heck show me where it says it was the main reason?

I remember the speaches in the news and wmds was the only reason blown out of proportion in the media. the rest have been ignored to this day.

From what we know now, what were the real reasons the insiders in the Administration wanted to go to war?

From what Wolfowitz says in the quote above, different players had different reasons.
SS

KK,
There is a record "19 miles long" of statements from the administration pushing WMD's to justify going to war, but now we know the statements were just part of a con job to sell the war to the American people. (Wolfowitz's "bureaucratic reasons" statement as much as admits that.)

When WMDs weren't found the Administration did a little PR dance and slithered into "spreading democracy" as the reason we went to war. Anybody that knows anything about Cheney, Rumsfeld, or Rove knows that's ridiculous. These gentlemen are into personal power, not democracy.

Sec of State Powell's aide, Mr. Wilkerson(sp?), says that control of US foreign policy was hi-jacked, and the country was taken to war, by a small cabal centered around Cheny and Rumsfeld.

I'd be interested in your opinion, KK, and the opinons of other board members, as to why the characters in the cabal really wanted to go to war in Iraq? The WMD story was just propaganda. . What were the real reasons?
SS

To put dollars into corporate coffers... either directly as in the case of the war's "contractors" or indirectly as in the case of "free trade." Pure and simple. They got their boy in there and then pay day came. Amazing how that works.

Isn't that what most "wars" are all about???

$ $ Follow the money. Look what Dick Chenny's "old" company is making. Nearly all the contracting is going to large republican contributors. The war dogs intend to make a killing on the war, they don't have any family over ther fighting. You don't see any of the young republicans lining up to join the Marines or any other branch for that matter.

Seems to me Rumsfeld's idea was to cut the middleman out. I also recall that private enterprise provides better service at lower cost over the govt. running things. But alas the glass is half full and all the world is doomed.

Lwer cost??? With a no bid contract?????????

"TRUST US"

Hell everyone knows that the 'Cradle of Civilazation' existed in land area between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. W and friends want to have "Freedom" radiate from the old center of things.
If you don't like that reason invent your own. That seems to be the process anyway.

FYI, Some still believe/know that Saddam was working on the fringe

"Sen. Joe Lieberman: Saddam Had WMD Programs


Following up on his Wall Street Journal article Tuesday defending the Iraq war, Sen. Joseph Lieberman is reminding Bush administration critics that it's wrong to claim that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. attacked in 2003.

"The so-called Duelfer Report, which a lot of people read to say there were no weapons of mass destruction - concluded that Saddam continued to have very low level of chemical and biological programs," Lieberman told ABC Radio host Sean Hannity on Wednesday.

"[Saddam] was trying to break out of the U.N. sanctions by going back into rapid redevelopment of chemical and biological and probably nuclear [weapons]," Lieberman said, calling the Iraqi dictator "a ticking time bomb."

"I have no regrets" that the U.S. toppled Saddam, the former vice presidential candidate explained. "I think we can finish are job there, and as part of it - really transform the Arab-Islamic world."

Lieberman said that his fellow Democrats haven't taken kindly to his decision to buck his party on Iraq.

"There's been some grumbling," he told Hannity. "In Connecticut there's a 'Dump Joe' web site that has cropped up."

But Lieberman added, "I've been here long enough where, at this stage in my career, I'm going to do what I think is right."
__________________

"Lwer cost??? With a no bid contract?????????


Lower cost than what the feds can provide. If there where others cpapble of doing the work then you would not see no bid contracts.

Look at that logic....

Yes look at your logic. Lets the feds pay $150 for a toilet seart rather than let a private company make a profit by only charging $75. You complain that you can buy it for $25 at Home Cheapo so it s a rip off. But you don't have to carry staff, have 20 people to pass around paperwork to meet contract regs and all the other BS that goes with running a business. Liberal logic at it's finest. Lets take a few notable no bid contracts. The last was FEMA for trailers. What never makes KIRO.com is the fact that the trailer manufactures agree a head of time to carry excess inventory for potential FEMA use. They also meet Fed guidlines for being able to ramp up production at the drop of a hat. PACAR locally has such contracts in place so does Boeing. So why should a bunch of bidder be included that do not or will not take part in these requirements? Halliburton. Name on company that could do what they are doing in the time frame they did it? SAIC could not even come close to that scale in that time frame.

The reason the govt is required, note that word, to place contracts out for bid is to keep costs down.

Beyond the Call of Duty
By Adam Zagorin & Timothy J. Burger
Time Magazine

Sunday 24 October 2004

A whistle-blower objected to the government's Halliburton deals-and says now she's paying for it.
In February 2003, less than a month before the U.S. invaded Iraq, Bunnatine (Bunny) Greenhouse walked into a Pentagon meeting and with a quiet comment started what could be the end of her career. On the agenda was the awarding of an up to $7 billion deal to a subsidiary of Houston-based conglomerate Halliburton to restore Iraq's oil facilities. On hand were senior officials from the office of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and aides to retired Lieut. General Jay Garner, who would soon become the first U.S. administrator in Iraq.

Then several representatives from Halliburton entered. Greenhouse, a top contracting specialist for the Army Corps of Engineers, grew increasingly concerned that they were privy to internal discussions of the contract's terms, so she whispered to the presiding general, insisting that he ask the Halliburton employees to leave the room.

Once they had gone, Greenhouse raised other concerns. She argued that the five-year term for the contract, which had not been put out for competitive bid, was not justified, that it should be for one year only and then be opened to competition. But when the contract-approval document arrived the next day for Greenhouse's signature, the term was five years. With war imminent, she had little choice but to sign. But she added a handwritten reservation that extending a no-bid contract beyond one year could send a message that "there is not strong intent for a limited competition."

Greenhouse's objections, which had not been made public until now, will probably fuel criticism of the government's allegedly cozy relationship with Halliburton and could be greeted with calls for further investigation. Halliburton's Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) subsidiary has been mired in allegations of overcharging and mismanagement in Iraq, and the government in January replaced the noncompetitive oil-field contract that Greenhouse had objected to and made two competitively bid awards instead. (Halliburton won the larger contract, worth up to $1.2 billion, for repairing oil installations in southern Iraq, while Parsons Corp. got one for the north, worth up to $800 million.) Halliburton's Iraq business, which includes another government contract as well, has been under particular scrutiny because Vice President Dick Cheney was once its CEO. The Pentagon, concerned about potential controversy when it signed the original oil-work contract, gave Cheney's staff a heads-up beforehand. (TIME disclosed that alert in June.)

Greenhouse seems to have got nothing but trouble for questioning the deal. Warned to stop interfering and threatened with a demotion, the career Corps employee decided to act on her conscience, according to her lawyer, Michael Kohn. Kohn, who has represented other federal whistle-blowers, last week sent a letter-obtained by TIME from congressional sources-on her behalf to the acting Secretary of the Army. In it Kohn recounts Greenhouse's Pentagon meeting and demands an investigation of alleged violations of Army regulations in the contract's awarding. (The Pentagon justified the contract procedures as necessary in a time of war, saying KBR was the only choice because of security clearances that it had received earlier.) Kohn charges that Greenhouse's superiors have tried to silence her; he says she has agreed to be interviewed, pending approval from her employer, but the Army failed to make her available despite repeated requests from TIME.

"These charges undercut months of assertions by Administration officials that the Halliburton contract was on the level," says Democratic Representative Henry Waxman. As the Corps's top contract specialist, the letter says, Greenhouse had noted reservations on dozens of procurement documents over seven years. But it was only after she took exception to the Halliburton deal that she was warned not to do so anymore. The letter states that the major general who admonished her, Robert Griffin, later admitted in a sworn statement that her comments on contracts had "caused trouble" for the Army and that, given the controversy surrounding the contract, it was "intolerable" and "had to stop." The letter says he threatened to downgrade her. (As with Greenhouse, the Army did not make Griffin available.) When the Pentagon's auditors accused KBR of overcharging the government $61 million for fuel, the letter says, the Army bypassed Greenhouse. Her deputy waived a requirement that KBR provide pricing data-a move that looked "politically motivated," the letter says.

The Pentagon maintains that it awarded Halliburton's Iraq contracts appropriately, as does a Halliburton spokeswoman. A senior military official says the Army "has referred the matter to the inspector general of the Department of Defense." As for Halliburton, it has faced alleged cost overruns, lost profits and seen at least 54 company contractors killed in Iraq. Greenhouse, meanwhile, has requested protection from retaliation. But her career-and reputation-are on the line.

Here's more:

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11525

More:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/25/60minutes/main551091.shtml

Aunty, don't you think lot's of entities are qualified to provide hot meals to troops?

I would have loved to have seen a split contract between Hali and SAIC. But even when Lockheed and Boeing and MD won outright won or split contracts there really was not much true freemarket competition.

AM, yes I understand how some of these decisions are made. Back room deals and the greasing of palms. Enough of that and yeah you end up with only one contractor capable of doing anything. Do you not think part of planning war scenarios and govt contracts in general shouldn't include lining up a multitude of contractors able to fill in? Why have all your marbles in one basket? Anyway, what I've posted is all old news. Contracts should go out for bidding, are supposed to go out for bidding and if a bidder cannot prove it can do the job then they are declined. Pretty simple and above board versus the appearances we now have. Supposedly the military had a plan for years. Was that plan a last second no bid contract with Halliburton you think?

Opt for the conspiracy theory always. It is esier than thinking , learning or acutally knowing something.

stlhead, you either don't realize that you don't know.

There is a quote to put up in neon lights.

AM, the military has had a contingency plan for the invasion of Iraq for at least 15 years. I highly doubt part of that plan involved a last minute no-bid contract. I doubt someone said "hey we forgot about all of this stuff". I also doubt the plan involved a single contractor as that would be highly inept. If Halliburton was part of the "plan" then we most likely wouldn't have had someone blowing the whistle and there would have been no need for closed doors last minute no bid contracts. No, I think it's more likely someone modified that plan to fit Halliburton.

TK, neon is too bright of a bulb for you.

"Sorry stlhead, but you're still not getting "it."

Another one for Neon!


There are battle plans for any country with a army Stlhd. Sorry stlhead, but you're still not getting "it." "stlhead, you either don't realize that you don't know."

Come one stlhd test me on this, lets prove your ignorance once and for all. I held a sole source contract with the US Navy for 15 years. We had propriatary technology that no other vendor could supply because of patents. Had they used my competitors product there would have been a 500 degree heat signature in the middle of every US Navy vessle in the world.

DUH!!!

He is good at DUH!! however. It's a big saying in Middle school right now right next to dude.

Seems you and TK have all the wisdom, information and experience on everything there is, and will attack anybody that differs. You and TK have developed quite a relationship. Sorta like that of an abuser and his victim. He calls you every name in to book that is derogatory to any normal female, and you keep coming back wanting more, as long as he throws you a bone every now and then. I've never called you FAT, ..he has, I've never called you a whore,..he has, I never defamed you and your husbands relationship, but he has. Yet you seem to stay focused on attacking me. Whats up with that? Is it because I want get abrusive, and you seek that from me? All I have ever done here was try to contribute information or my experience regarding a thread, as I did in this one. My comment "Duh", was my observation of how well stlhd was pointing out the obvious. DUH! :rolleyes:

Now I will wait and watch as TK call you every name in the book and you keep kissing his butt and excepting more.

What's up with that? All you have to do is go back and look at some of the stuff he's said about you. I guess as TK put's it, that's Monkey humping at it's extreme. Guess you must have and underlying fantacy to be abrused by strange men on the internet. What's up with that? He will chime in your defense, as you for him (The make up)and then the abruse starts all over, for us all to watch. And BTW, it an't pretty. TK can get so extreme with the abruse of you, that the post sometimes gets deleted, in order to protect the public and this board.
Bye now; and take a good look at that behavior, as it's some what puzzeling.

the rory of the left.

JLH, Every pup learns at a young age when scolded by mamma not to try and shift blame back on mamma or the other kids. Mamma will just whack you harder if you try.

Look at TK berate someone for doing exactly what he does all day every day. TK, I highly doubt you've done anything in your life except tug momma's purse strings. Only contract you'd ever have with the Navy is as a seal CPR training dummy. That would make a seal tough wouldn't it?

AM, maybe I should rephrase 'closed door' as 'back door'. You seem to be hung up on that?

Here's more for you:
http://www.answers.com/topic/government-...ment-of-defense

The investigation also uncovered questionable procurement arrangements with Halliburton. According to a United Press International article published in The Washington Times, the Kuwaiti-owned Timimmi Company had been serving hot meals to troops stationed in Iraq for $3 a meal. The contract was later reassigned to Halliburton, which raised the price to $5 a meal, subcontracted the meal services back out to Timimmi, and kept the 40% difference. GAO Analyst Neil Curtain exposed the problem in a Congressional hearing, noting, "Certainly that’s unfair to the taxpayer"[2]

We can agree to disagree. I wonder what ever happened to all of the investigations into the shinanigans surrounding awarding those contracts? There have never been any results published that I am aware of. None to exhonerate nor vilify. All swept under the rug probably until a new admin takes charge.

Stlhd,

It would just be easier for you to post the transcript from F911. It's almost vebatim the position you take on every issue here. I would say come up with an original thought but that is impossible for someone with no life expirience.

Halliburton is the only company with the knowledge required to serve meals to soldiers. Something about a patented after-dinner mint.

Yep that would be smart let the arabs feed our troops while we fight the arabs. Maybe Iran could have done it for $1 a meal.

That's exactly what I mean when i say the two of you are real classics. Now you label her as my mother, but in other threads you continue to question her qualification as a mother and grandmother. Often nasty with the insults but now it's cool to do the monkey hump and label her as my mother and I've got to look up to her for some reason. You see I'm not here to kiss anyones butt, nor is it a requirement that others need to kiss mine. I will leave that to the two of you and it's really none of my business. I only pointed it out after being attacked for the simple comment, "DUH," which has been used by both of you on many occasions. To be insulted for doing that is Hypocritical if you ask me. :rolleyes:

I still didn't get a good answer to my questions, now what's up with that? Nevermind, I could care less, just wanted to bring it to your attention.

BTW, the two of you don't have a clue as to who I am, so quit trying to label me. One label is close to the truth, the two of you continue to believe that I am a college student.
My college day's are well behind me, but I try to remain educable or teachable.

I pray that all that knowlege and certainty that the two of you are blessed with bring you good health. All this babble on BB is no good if you are afflicted with disease or cronic illness. Be sure to put energy into other areas of your life, that's not political or fish related as it is important to have balance. As you can see, I am not your enemy nor are you mine, and I truly wish you and everyone else on this board happy holiday's, good health and vitality. And Aunty, I hope your husbands health is getting better and he's back to his normal self soon.

"I would say come up with an original thought but that is impossible for someone with no life expirience."

Did I miss something? Did you set an example by having a thought TK?

The ironic thing is that I probably set a better example of a conservative than you. I've worked all of my life since before it was legal to do so and put myself through college. No golden spooner like you.

AM, do you not see anything wrong with a private company sitting in on meetings at the Pentagon? Especially a meeting deciding to award contracts? I'm not getting what you are defending at all. Maybe we should have all the really big corps sit in on Senate appropriation meetings and such. They are there in spirit anyway. The only defense given for awarding these, otherwise illegal, contracts is that it was a time of emergency. The "rush to war".
I sure would like to know what happened to the investigations into this that were begun last year.

That's a deal.

I still think the assertion that Hallibuton is the only company that could fulfill these contracts is bullsh!t.

Defense technology contracts are one thing.....then there ARE patented technologies at work and design specs that only one company can meet. That's just not the case here. They are providing infrastructure and support sh!t that a dozen companies could do.

Sole source contracts that require a specialized technology or knowledge aren't my concern. No-bid contracts many companies could satisfy, but aren't given a chance to, so that Halliburton can cut a fat hog should be a concern to any taxpayer.

No, Dick Cheney isn't Halliburton. But if you think he's not still connected at some level (I think he'll go back to work there after his WH stint), then you're getting better sh!t than I am.

AM
Good chocolate's not cheap. I myself have found some of the low carb stuff to be spendy, but it does not raise my blood sugar.

I like grinding Cocao Nibs (real roasted beans)and sweetened with stevia (natural sweetner) which does not raise your blood sugar. I like to make chocolate yogurt using young coconuts and adding acidophilus to the milk. That's good stuff that satisfies my cholcolate jones and it want kill you. BTW, real chocolate is good for you.

What ever you do, stay away as much as you can from aspertane and sacarine. That stuff is poison, and believe it or not, was brought to you by Donald Rumsfeld, but that's another story.

lol. JLH, you been stepped on by the ORACLE of MOO. The Oracle says you have no knowledge. Now that's funny. Especially from one who's most profound comment goes "maybe yes, maybe no." Creator of the Hot Used Hay Patrol, The Oracle of Moo.

AM
I tried stevia. BLLLEEECCHHH! It's splenda for me, or nothing. Some companies use too much (like in soda) and it's too sweet for me.

Aunty alll stevia is not the same. Be sure to try different brands and be careful not to use to much. I prefer to Powdered extract to the liquid concentrate, but when i'm traveling I still carry the liquid. I used splenda and liked it, but I keep hearing of posible issues with the chlorine, and Chlorine is a toxic substance. Seems there is always something that can come back and bite you. BTW, I use the Swanson's brand of powdered extract. I order oline at http://www.swansonvitamins.com. The best price and quality around.

"The ironic thing is that I probably set a better example of a conservative than you. I've worked all of my life since before it was legal to do so and put myself through college. No golden spooner like you. "

I bet you took out student loans or had financial aid?


My mom and dad where divorced and he was off to war in Vietnam. We lived in public housing in Everett Wa. because my mom was single with a 8th grade education and 3 kids at the age of 19. From the age of 7 I paid for all my own clothes, sports equipement everything but food. For 20 blocks or more in any direction I was known as the kid that would mow your lawn any day of the week before or after school. I rigged up my Schwin bike to tow a lawn mower. I painted houses ,weeded whatever I could do to make a few dollars. If I wanted anything I had to pay for it. I had my first 40 hour a week job when I was 14 cleaning equipement for a local business. I worked full time in HS driving a laundry van. I worked construction summers in college and full time during the school year doing what ever I could. I paid for my college and graduated in 4 years. Never borowed a dime. I am the first person and still the only person in my family to go to college. I started a business with my father in 1983 and sold it in 1996. I took two years off and cleared my land by hand and built my farm and home. I did have a silver spoon because I was born in the US the land of opportunity where a kid can realize his dreams.

And there in lies the root of many ills in our society. Too many "victims" don't have the will to work hard at anything. Always complaining that it's someone else's fault. [/QUOTE]

Yup. I remember in, I think 1974, during the Boeing turn out the lights. I picked Apples, Pears, Peaches, Cukes, etc for dough. Those were tough times.

'public housing in Everett Wa'
tk-- was this on the north end of Everett? Does this mean you were a Seagull?
If so, I knew something was up with you......

I'm glad that housing was available for people in a time of need. Must be the bleeding-heart liberal in me.

ChuckE,

I would have been but we moved out.