Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??

Recieved an email from Sean Orr suggesting that those concerned about the extreme netting schedule that will affect some prety dismal runs contact one of the Grays Harbor County Commissioners that apparently has some history going to bat for the sports anglers.

Please email Al Carter at ACarter@co.grays-harbor.wa.us

You never know if such things will ever do any good, but at least you might sleep a little better knowing that you tried. I'm sure this is especially important for any folks that call part of the state home

Bob,
Nicely done! I am emailing Al as soon as I am done posting this. Lets get it going guys. Quit complaining about it and fill this guys inbox with emails from us sport fisherman. It's worth a shot in my book. The netting schedule is absolutely radiculous these past few years. Every fish that I've got this year has had a net mark on it. Think, those are ones that managed to get by the nets. Anyways I thank you Bob and Sean Orr for getting us this info.

Harbor-Hog

I eat my lunch, when I get one, at a spot where the nets are almost always in. Makes me kind of sad, but I also get to see when the fish are running. I'll send my e-mail off tomorrow.

My note is on the way...

I sent mine.

fp

The WSC just recieved this from Sean-

Attention: Anybody concerned with saving wild steelhead

A travesty is about to happen in the Chehalis River Basin


The Quinault Indian Nation has set a tribal netting schedule for the lower Chehalis River for 5 days a week until April 13 to net wild steelhead. This has not been done in the past!!!!!!! This schedule has been done in coordination with and in agreement with the Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife even though they are responsible for managing and preserving our fish resources.


The reason the WDFW is doing this is to trade steelhead for salmon. The trade will be between the tribe and the state to allow the white commercial salmon fisherman to have more days gillnetting Grays Harbor and the Chehalis this upcoming year.


The state has a responsibility to save the wild steelhead in the Chehalis River Basin. All the rivers in this basin are wild steelhead catch and release. Many of the rivers do not meet their “Healthy” escapement goals. Now as the WDFW and Fish and Wildlife commission talk about a wild steelhead moratorium they agree to let the Quinault Tribe destroy one of the last healthy runs of wild steelhead on the west coast.


Call these people and complain, call your legislators, call the governor and by all means call now because in the next few weeks the wild steelhead run will reach its peak in the Chehalis River and they will all be DEAD!!!!!!


Commission Members




Will Roehl, Bellingham

Ron Ozment, Cathlament

Dr. Kenneth Chew, Seattle

John A Hunter, Cashmere

Holly Ledgerwood, Pomeroy

Lisa Pelly, Bainbridge Island

Dr J Pete Schroeder, Sequim

Fred Shiosaki, Spokane

Bob Tuck, Selah


Phone: (360) 902-2267

Email: commission@dfw.wa.gov


Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife staff to Call:


Jeff Koenigs
Director
(360) 902-2225

Larry Peck
Deputy Director
(360) 902-2650

Phil Anderson
Intergovernmental Staff Director
(360) 902-2720

Lew Atkins
Assistant Director, Fish Program
(360) 902-2651

Pat Patillo
Fish Policy Coordinator
(360) 902-2750

Ross Fuller
Fish Management Manager
(360) 902-2655

Bop Leland
Steelhead Program Manager
(360) 902-2817

Sent

here is what i sent to the commisioner of fish & wildlife, please feel free to copy, paste, & modify to your liking & send to commissioner:

PLEASE STOP THE CERTAIN DESTRUCTION OF ONE OF THE LAST REMAINING HEALTHY WILD STEELHEAD RUNS IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON BY GETTING THE EXTREME GILLNETTING SCHEDULE OF THE CHEHALIS RIVER UNDER CONTROL. PLEASE DO SOMETHING, DON'T LET THIS TRAVESTY HAPPEN ON YOUR WATCH !!! THX MAX

Eric:

What i remember, 2-3 yrs. ago, was the price of fish being super low..........REMEMBER???? Then there was the super surplus---Alaska, Canadian, fish farms.......flooded the markets........price went way down.

No price for fish!!!! Why fish?????

Then I seem to remember, tribe Negotiated(????) a "spring chinook" netting schedule....REMEMBER????.....Only many of the nets were "sunk" to target on sturgeon, not the "negotiated" spring chinook....Remember that?????

Now the price of fish.....salmon, steelhead, and sturgeon, is way up......October - November showed a gill net fishery on the Chehalis River that I haven't seem since the "pre-bolt" times.

Now the "negotiated"????---Winterrun steelhead season is taking place......wow, some deal we get.......tribe 5 days a week, January 2 ------ April 13..... Wow what a deal for the many sportsmen that fish the local rivers.

Negotiations?????? Who is involved with this....surely you can't believe WDF....has the interests of the very people that pay the vast amounts of thier salaries........the sports people of the State of Washington and the thousands of "out of staters", that buy licenses, spents millions on fishing gear, plus many more millions on drift, jet, and other flowing devices.

Wow, we are getting sold "down the river", and I just don't see an end to it.

"worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

Just as on the Columbia River, in an effort to prop up the economic disaster that the non-tribal commercial fishing fleet is, negotiations are taking place to take fish from one place and give them to the tribes (or other interests) so that the non-tribal commercials can get theirs in another place...

...and sportfishermen, not to mention the very conservation and perpetuation of the runs, are being sold down the river to get it done.

This must be addressed, loudly and clearly, at the public meetings are coming up on these issues.

The Commission, while mindful of the economic needs and wants of the commercial fishing industry, doesn't seem to be willing to do this on their own, but the Department has their ear all the time...we only get it at short and random periods.

We really need to make the most of those times, and we really need to ask the Commission to be partners in NOT selling off the fish runs and the sportfishermen to make a quick political buck for the ailing commercial industry.

While the leadership at the Department is so harvest oriented that I don't think they have room to think clearly about sportfishing interests, sportfishing dollars, and the relative low impacts of sportfishing to get those much bigger sportfishing dollars, they don't make the decisions.

The Commission does...and we have to remind them, forcefully, that their charter is NOT to rubber stamp the destructive policies of their Department heads, but it is to look out for the resources and citizens of the entire state.

They are not our enemy...they are the ones who make the decisions, and we have to get them on the side of the most economic, recreational, and conservation/perpetuation ideals that we can present to them.

Our support for them making the right decisions gives them the wherewithall to stand up to the blatant waste of economic and natural resources for the small economic gain of the few, gives them a political and moral crutch to lean on when they say NO to the Director and the policy guys who continue to push these decidedly poor policies.

Write letters, send e-mails, and GO TO THE MEETINGS...and remember, we need to get them on our side, not attack them...they are the decision makers, not the policy makers who come up with these hare-brained schemes.

Fish on...

Todd

eric, are you kidding me?

Todd,

I was perplexed by the aggressive steelhead gillnetting schedule, and this is the first I've heard of a WDFW trade of steelhead fishing time for more non-treaty commercial gillnetting opportunity. First, I think we need to verify this, as it doesn't make sense to me. That is, the numbers of steelhead present in the system all season long are very few compared to the numbers of salmon, so I don't see it being a particularly profitable trade by the Tribe. Nonetheless, it's worth verifying.

Second, if this is true, then it represents an action by WDFW to further "commercialize" a state game fish. With the Tribe fishing 5 days a week, or 71% of the hours/week, WDFW is agreeing with a commercial harvest in excess of the 50% treaty share. Since commercial harvest of steelhead by non-treaty fishing is prohibited by state law; and since trading steelhead fishing time for the treaty Tribe for additional salmon gillnetting time for the non-treaty fleet; is this an illegal action that appropriates commercial steelhead fishing for the non-treaty commercial fleet, as non-treaty commercial fishing is illegal?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

For those of you who participated in the broodstock program on the Satsop, how does it make you feel that all the time and effort and the sacrifice of those native fish is now supporting the tribe? For me it really pisses me off. Never again.

Chromefish-
That's not the attitude that you should have. What about the ones that get by the nets and still make it to spawn? They're worth something. I know it's frusterating to watch them harvest fish that aren't near harvestable numbers. Not to mention how many wild silvers they're getting. I've spent hundreds of hours broodstocking Grays Harbor rivers. Never once did I think it wasn't worth my time. I would gladly do it all over again, and will continue to do anything I can to help out our fisheries.

I am all for rallying to try to ban the nets, but don't know how well that is going to go over seeming we failed at the last ban. Even though it wasn't directed at the tribes it would have been a step in the right direction. If it's money that we need, I am sure that if every sport fisherman knew for sure that some of the money that they spent on fishing tackle, bait, and equipment was going to go help fund our rally to ban nets they would be happy to pay an extra 5% or whatever. I know I would. Any ideas on that?

Does anyone know how and if we can get the WDFW to commit to a public meeting alot like what they had a few months back at the log pavillion? We would have to advertise the metting on the radio, newspaper, and I hate to say it but maybe even F&H news if you could get it in there in time. I only say that mag because it's in the hands of alot of people that love to fish and it comes out bi monthly.

Anyways if anyone has any ideas I'm all ears and ready to help.

Harbor-Hog

The word that I just got is that they are now considering opening things to sport kill to appease the sports anglers.

Hmmm, that makes a lot of sense.

Well that's one giant step in the wrong direction! Nobody wants that. Man sure seems like the WDFW really wants to get rid of the steelhead in our state. If this passes or whatever it has to do to make it legit there is going to be a huge impact on our steelhead runs in the near future. Keeps getting uglier and uglier. I am ready to quit buying my fishing licences.

Harbor-Hog

all members of wdfw are public employees paid by our dollars
maybe we just need to find out how to fire them?
how about it tim?
can you fire these guys per a peoples inspired inititive?

email sent

2 e-mails sent. One to the commission, and one to Al Carter. Also don't forget that this net schedule also affects the Hump!
Buck

Hog, Why did you participate in these programs? To increase habitat, to increase fishing opertunities for all SPORTSMEN, to increase numbers of fish returning to those rivers? These are some of the reasons I participated, and in my opinion it was a waste of time now. All those fish are now being caught by the tribe and we will soon be back to where we started if were lucky. You may be right about me having attitude but I feel I have a right to be pissed, and unless something is done by the state to stop the netting, I will never volunteer to help again.

I am sending out one e-mail to give an idea of what I am trying to do. I
have made some phone calls to WDFW and talked with some folks at the state
level. I need to have more information from them to see what we can do.

I am reseaching the issue now. I meet with Curt Hughs from WDFW on Thursday
1/13/05 to get more information on how the seasons are set, how the
estimates are done etc. I will do my best, however the county has no
jurisdiction on tribal or state fishing rights and rules. Is there any way
that the Poogie Club of GH can get involved and maybe we start a ground
swell organization to bring about some needed changes? I am getting quite a
few e-mails, mostly from guides. I would like to hear from others and
especially the local sports fishermen. The more people that get involved
the more effective we can be. This is a pretty serious issue. I just spoke
with Chuck Letkin, (spelling?) about a meeting at the Natural Resources
Building in Olympia on Wednesday 1/12 at 2:00 PM. supposed to be about
steelhead netting seasons. I have it on my calendar and plan to attend.

I'll keep you posted.


This is what I just recieved from Al Carter. At least he is trying to do something!
Buck

chromefish,

I feel your pain...if this is what it looks like, a trade of steelhead (that cannot be fished commercially by non-tribal fishermen...it is illegal) to treaty fishermen so that the non-treaty fishermen can commercially net more salmon, then this is at worst illegal, as it commercializes the steelhead, in spite of the law against it, and at best, a sellout of sportfishing interests for commercial interests, yet again.

On the subject of broodstock fish, though...

The tribes have a treaty right to half of the harvestable portion of fish runs, whether they be wild or hatchery fish.

When you set out to create a viable broodstock steelhead fishery, and accomplished the goal by establishing a reliable run of those fish, did you think that the tribes would not want to fish for them?

They have every legal right to do so.

Additionally, those broodstock fish return in February, March and April. If the treaty fishermen are going to net for those broodstock fish that are now plentiful enough to have a net fishery for, what else are they going to be catching in the net?

That's right, the native steelhead...native steelhead that they otherwise wouldn't be netting, but are catching now because of the presence of harvestable broodstock hatchery fish.

Keep that in mind...it has, and will continue to be, my main objection anytime someone brings up what a great idea it would be to start a broodstock program on the Skagit system.

Besides the dubious proposition that it would return more fish (more harvestable fish? Yes. More fish overall? No. They generally take wild fish out of the gene pool, spawn them, clip them, and return the same or less amount of fish than if the wild fish were just left alone...but now they can be harvested), it would most certainly lead to a tribal net fishery to catch their half...a net fishery that would also catch the wild fish.

Fish on...

Todd

Excellent post Todd, and a very astute analysis of why even broodstock programs will not work in WA if the purpose of the program is to produce fish for harvest.

Despite their proponents good intentions, I have been struggling with whether or not these programs really do any good, and your last post has solidified my position. Until tribal nets are out of the equation, any form of "enhancement" with hatchery fish is voodoo.

In coastal OR streams (non-Columbia), these programs have half a chance to prove their worth. But again, it is predicated on whether or not pulling a pair of wild spawners out of the system is truly more productive in bringing back adult progeny than if that original pair of spawners had just been left to do its thing in the wild. That's a question we will NEVER be able to answer in WA's net-infested rivers.

If there is much danger of hatchery fish spawning in the wild and disrupting the flow of genetic material from generation to generation of wild fish, AND the river is one that is not subject to tribal netting, then a broodstock program would be preferable to a regular hatchery program...

Fish on...

Todd

Buck- I too just got that same reply from Al Carter. I am very pleased to see his response. Sounds like a go getter to me. I really think we have a leg to stand on now.

Chromefish- I think every sportfisherman is pi$$ed off at the tribes for begin able to net 24/7. Well pretty much. I understand where your coming from totally. I'm not saying you have an attitude, but I am saying that you can't get ahead if your always looking backwards. As mad as I am about the tribal netting it's not going to get me anywhere unless I keep a focused mindset on the overall goal and that is too get the nets out of the water period. Well unless it's a Frabil, and of course with a fair hooked fish. Anyways with that said lets get to marching, forward that is. Al Carter said that he needs more facts to take to the state and he needs more people showing support. It's time we overuled Boldt, one step at a time. So I encourage everyone to please email your State Commisioners, email our governor (whoever that might be), email WDFW, email everyone.

Todd- You ever dreamed of catching a 30lb hatchery steelhead? I sure have! I know of such a fish that was caught out a broodstocked river. I don't think all the fish are leathaly spawned nor do I beleive that they clip 100% of the smolts from the broodstocked fish. So you no longer have a pure wild fish, but a non clipped hatchery fish that has wild genetics. But really how many actually still have 100% wild genetics. One way or another it's always nice to have a good mix of clipped and non clipped wild fish.

As far as the poggie club goes. I don't beleive that's the right place to start. I have nothing against the GH Poggie club, but I think we need to a larger group. Like maybe a combination of a few groups. For example NW Steelheaders, GH Poggie Club, Trout Unlimited, and WSC. Now we've got some ground to stand on. What do you guys think?

I am taking next Wed off to attend that meeting in Olympia. It would be nice if we had a few people there to help with "our side". Anyone else thinking about going?

I also got this email from Al Carter. It's an email that he received from a guy who's name I am witholding because I don't know him and wouldn't know if he wants his name posted. The email pretty much sums it up and I encourage for others to send like emails to the mentioned above.

Just wanted to drop a quick note that I am very disappointed in the Tribal
> Netting Schedule In Grays Harbor. I can't believe in this day and age
> with all the environmental measures that are being taken to protect wild
> steelhead, and the catch and release regulations that have been in place
> for years, that a uncaring group of tribal commercial gill netters are
> being permitted to abuse this watershed and target wild steelhead
>
> Again I am very disappointed and seriously considering not buying a new
> license this spring, and buy a license in Oregon instead. In Oregon one
> does not have to tolerate the commercial gill net abuse of a fragile
> resource. (except for the columbia)
>


Hope to see some of our issues addressed in the very near future, before it's too late to save.

Harbor-Hog

The WSC will be involved to some extent...how much, I don't know yet, but it is important and on our radar screen. I'm juggling that with the Columbia River net fishery right now, but I think I'll be able to get that one done, too.

I'll try to get a few licks about it in on the radio show tomorrow...and the newest Commissioner will also be on the show, going right after me, so I'll try to bend his ear about it, too. If he is taking calls, tune in around 7am and give a call in and ask him about it on the air!

Fish on...

Todd

This is just sick. As many years as C&R regs have been in place on most of the Chehalis drainage, it's all gonna get shot down if this aggressive netting schedule is carried out.

I'll tell you..........if the Commission lets this deal happen, I will have lost all faith in the Commission and WDFW. What the reasons are for why this deal.......or at least what appears to be a deal.........was made I don't much care. I don't care if salmon had anything to do with it, I don't care if an extended non-tribal net fishery had anything to do with it..........I just don't want nets in the friggin' river for 5 days a week through April.

Sure, close the Satsop and Wynoochee in March.........yet allow a lower Chehalis net fishery through April. Why don't you just come over and f&%k my wife too?

Great.........now I have fishing raising my blood pressure instead of lowering it. That's a fine "how do you do?"

Where is the meeting and when?

Harbor, WSC has been developing and hosting the Steelhead Summit Alliance, if you know organization or belong and interested in participating contact Dave Bailey captain@olypen.com Below is some info regarding the SSA:

The Steelhead Summit Alliance (SSA) is a consortium of organizations pursuing a common goal: conservation and restoration of wild steelhead populations throughout their native range. The purpose of forming the SSA is to coordinate wild steelhead advocacy among the participating groups, and to enable participating groups to advocate collectively to maximize our efficacy in obtaining policies, laws and regulations to achieve our goals.

The SSA is comprised of some 40 organizations from California to British Columbia that have participated in one or more summit meetings and have expressed an interest in forming an alliance. They include fishing clubs, fish advocacy groups, and conservation organizations at the local, state and national levels. A volunteer steering committee has been formed to assist in managing the SSA.

The SSA is an informal collaboration and is not organized as a separate legal entity. The SSA is only a forum for participating groups to communicate and strategize regarding wild steelhead conservation; it does not take positions on behalf of participating groups and participating groups must determine for themselves their positions on specific issues.

To date, ten issue committees have been formed within the SSA to develop general policies on such issues as hatcheries, hydropower, habitat, ESA listings, education/outreach, research, and enforcement. These policies are intended to guide the advocacy of participating groups, but are not binding and participating groups can use or not use these policies as they deem appropriate.

A principal purpose of the SSA is to establish a communication network through which member groups can be informed of policy, legal and management issues regarding wild steelhead conservation and take action to influence decision-makers. By joining the SSA, groups agree to become part of this network. However, participation in the network does not require any group to take action on any particular issue or to adopt a particular position.

Just giving it a bump. Hoping to get some more people to see this. Hope nobody minds.

Harbor-Hog

Sent my e mail Friday night.

maybe it is time to have a protest rally to show the state how mad we are about this

Let's circle the Capitol with Sleds and Driftboats and have a protest. Or we could circle the Casino. Seriously you have to bring ATTENTION to the problem through the MEDIA.

I am a product of the late 60's,I am not afraid to protest.

We could have a hog line across the Wishkah river where the gill net boats unload their Native steehead each day.

It's all BS, the Native run is not being protected.

Sent mine in on the 6th.Let's plug up the capital with our drift boat's and sleds.
Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE

Todd, You are right. The idea of killing those native fish for the program turned me off at first. But the thought of having a good return of not just native fish but clipped fish sure seemed like a good idea. I just wish I would have thought a couple years ahead that these fish would now be netted by the tribe. Never even crossed by mind. They had never netted the chehalis like this before. That is why I said never again, because not only are they taking those hatchery fish but the natives. I have e-mailed every state official I could think of along with many friends of mine, reminding them to do the same.

Chromefish,

Hopefully we can get this stopped before they net right up through April...

As noted above, if there is an actual agreement to trade steelhead now for salmon later, salmon that are slated for a commercial fishery, then this is in direct violation of Washington State law.

There are people looking into it now...

Fish on...

Todd

As far as I see it. The only way to get the State, and WDFW's attention is to not purchase a fishing licenses for a year. The ground work will need to be set for a year or so out. They depend on sales of licenses to continue operation, at WDFW, as well as in the general fund. If Sportsmen. and Sportswomen put it to them where it hurts, then maybe they'll get the message. As for tradeing winter Steelhead for fall Coho. I can't see that as even a remote policy by WDFW.
I wonder if it is also true that non treaty Gill Netters are subsidized for the Salmon they do not catch.... If this is true, and I am led to believe it is, By a commercial Gillnetter, then how can we continually support their fishery, year after year...
As for the winter schedule in Grays Harbor, Pick up a copy at the regional office in Monteasno. 5 days per week through March, 3 days per week till April 13. April 16 opens the Tribal SPRING CHINOOK season.
Both winter Steelhead, and Spring Chinook have a commercial Sturgeon season attached. Pick up a copy and get an eye opener.

Apparently this deal is considered a government to government negotiated agreement and as such exempt from any action that could be taken by WDFW or the commission. The tribes are sovereign nations you know. Indian activities are "off the table" according to most in power.

I for one would like to verify that this TRADE is official & who from WDFW signed off on it.

I also heard from a reliable source today that had heard the Quinaults asked the Chehalis tribe for a $4 million loan for a casino. The Chehalis said OK, IF you pull the nets out of the Chehalis River & never put them back in. He had not heard of any response yet.

Also -- here is an excerpt of a letter sent out by USDA Farm Service Agency that was mailed out last week (Jan 2 or 3rd). This letter was from the Grays Harbor/Pacific County Office Montesano 360-249-5900 & the Lewis County Office 360-748-0084

"2003 SALMON SIGNUPS END ON SEPARATE DAYS IN JANUARY

The signup period under the Trade Adjustment Assistance Program (TAA) for Alaskan Salmon will run through January 13th, while the signup for Washington Salmon will run through January 31st. To qualify for TAA benefits, one's net income from fishing must be less in 2003 than in 2001. If net income from salmon fishing can be identified separately from other sources of fish income, only salmon income will be considered in determining eligibility, otherwise, all fish income will be considered. It is recommended that applicants schedule an appointment to minimize waiting."

grandpa,

Have you heard if this is a federal-tribal deal? I thought I heard that it was a state-tribal deal...

It would violate state law if it were a state-tribal deal, and I'm pretty sure that the feds would have no authority to go trading state property (which steelhead are) to the Quinaults, even if they wanted to.

Remind me to talk to you about this on the conference call tonight.

Fish on...

Todd

Todd..talked to our moderator this afternoon and he told me that. We better ask for clarification.

This is a bunch o' crap! I just sent an email to all parties with the dfw and the commission that I could access on the wdfw site. I hope everyone reading these posts is doing the same!!

Sounds like WDFW Region 6 personnel are calling BS on this story. They say there was no trade for salmon. Of course , the could not admit that since it would be illegal. Perhaps and back room wink and hand shake would be more likely. They say they are going to explore more sports opportunity..I think to pacify us. and shut us up before the cat is out of the bank.

I never did like pasifiers. We need to get more eyes looking at this stuff. I wonder what "Joe Public" would think of 100's of dead salmon left to die on the river bank because all they wanted was the eggs or the bucks were to colored up. You never see this type of stuff make any sort of headlines. I am all for any type of protest and or stand. I am not supprised that the WDFW didn't admit to any wrong doing. They've got a simple answer for that, and that is to allow sprotfisherman to have a kill fishery for wild steelhead. Yeah, that's what we were aiming for! Anyways I've emailed every day and pass the word on to anyone and everyone.

Harbor-Hog

Very interesting thread folks.

Not trying to muddy the waters here, but here's one more twist.

I attended a meeting last month where one of the hot-button issues was "bycatch" of non-target late-run wild Satsop coho in a December gillnet fishery supposedly targeting early-run winter steelhead. Those who brought the issue to the table called BS on the idea that this is a legitimate net fishery for steelhead.

Thru Dec 21, the nets had been deployed 17 days in December!

It was argued that since so few steelhead return to the system in that time frame, why did WDFW allow such an intense tribal net fishery? The implication of course was that this was really just a tribal salmon fishery in disguise since the major species migrating thru the Chehalis corridor during that time frame is wild late-run coho, mainly of Satsop origin. Moreover, the harvest from this covert salmon fishery is one that slips under the radar screen since there is no official salmon allocation set for the month of December.

When asked why such a travesty is allowed to occur, WDFW responded that the tribes historically have not been getting their half of the steelhead harvest (supposedly 66:33 dominated by non-tribal harvest), and they needed more opportunity to catch their fair share. The tribes have already maxed out their netting schedules for the rest of the winter/spring. That's why they got extra time in December.

When asked how many salmon were projected to be harvested as bycatch in this fishery, WDFW stated something like 65 fish. Anybody believe that?

i started plunking for steelhead on the chehalis when i was 13 i am now 58 back then the best fishing was december and January we usually stop fishing around the middle of February the last year before netting there was over 60 steelhead caught out of my plunking boat 4 years later there was 6 fish caught while the decline is not all the fault of netting it is a major cause there use to be a late run of big hook-nose silvers in february in the satsop there are now gone what i am getting at is if there is no steelhead in december i say they have been netted out.
the chehalis was the number two river system for steelhead year after year with the skagit number one. there should be state records from punchcards back then
with the netting this year it will become dead river system for steelhead which it looks like what the state wants

Larry

You hit the nail on the head.... the early December steelhead have been nearly wiped out. There just aren't very many steelies that time of year. And here's the state granting the tribes permission to drive the last nail into the coffin.

It begs a few questions. Why would the tribes even bother "steelhead" fishing during that timeframe if there are so few steelies to net? Is it even worth their while? Why in the hell would they need 17 days to net what few steelhead remain in that early component?

The only thing that makes it worth their while is a late run of prime wild coho. If this trend keeps up, those late coho will be next to hit the coffin.

My email was sent.

I saw this email response from Phil Anderson from the WDFW.

"Thank you for your comments, my response is intended to provide you with some information that you may not have and respond to several of your "messages".

1) The 2003-04 run size of wild steelhead into the Chehalis system was 18,796, since 1982-83 the only run size that came close to this number was in 1986-87 when the run size was 17,554.
2) The escapement goal for the Chehalis system is 8,600, the 2003-04 escapement was 15,825
3) The 2004-05 run size is forecasted to be 13,148, the third highest in 22 years.
4) The state/tribal management plan estimates a 2004-05 escapement of 10,909.
5) The Quinault Indian Nation's (QIN) share of wild steelhead reserved by treaty with the United States is 2,274, the state/tribal management plan predicts a QIN harvest of 1,954.
6) The model the state and tribal comanagers use to estimate the tribal catch was updated this year and now uses a catchability coefficient based on the most recent two years actual fishery results.
7) The recreational fishery is predicted to harvest 6,757 (6,658 hatchery+99 wild) fish in 2004-05, the QIN fishery is predicted to harvest 3,963 (1,954 wild + 2,009 hatchery).

The tribal fishery schedule encompasses more days than recent years however they are not predicted to catch more than their share of the harvestable wild fish. As a result, we have no basis to challenge the schedule QIN has authorized the tribal fishers to fish. "


Not sure how the last part can be true. They will fish more days but not catch more fish that doesn't even pass the straight face test.
JJ

When I think about it now, there's hardly a month all year that the Chehalis does not see a tribal gillnet.

Winter steelhead from winter thru spring. Spring kings from spring thru early summer. Summer steelhead all summer. Fall kings, silvers, and chum.

Seriously, is there even ONE month that the river system is net-free?

Want to cut down on the "incidental or incidentally" caught fish???

If steelhead is the "target fish", let's say in December.......then any "incidentally caught fish", native coho, must go to food banks. This at least would take the profit motive out of the "non-targeted" fish.

This would be for both tribal and non-tribal gill net fishermen.

Why should gill net fishermen be allowed to keep and profit by catching a "non-targeted" fish, when the thousands of people that are sport fishing......must release, can't even take "out of the water for a picture" protected fish....ie wild steelhead, chinook(Wynoochee and Satsop).

Grrrrrrrr to Department Fish and Wildlife for allowing sales of incidentally caught commerical fish, for sure in past years, but working hard to see that "sport caught" have more and more restrictions. All this at a time in history when more and more people are willing to spend 10's of thousands of dollars, just to be able enjoy a pasttime. Just doesn't make sense!!!!!!!!!

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

The email posted by Double Haul was forwarded to Bill Freymond, Region 6 biologist, and this is his response:


The e-mail you attached is not true!! I have no idea where he/she got
the idea that we're trading steelhead for salmon, or that the wild steelhead
run is not meeting escapement goal in the Chehalis. In fact, we will be
discussing a couple of proposals at the SH/CT P.A.G. meeting on Wednesday to
either allow some harvest or extended catch and release opportunity on the
Chehalis and Humptulip stocks this winter. Look forward to talking to you
Wednesday about this issue. Bill

Double Haul's email said this about the run size " Many of the rivers do not meet their “Healthy” escapement goals". Not everybody is in agreement with WDFW about escapement goals, especially "healthy" escapement goals.

I’ll report back what happens at SCPAC meeting on Wednesday (12th), I’ll be getting back late Wednesday night so look for something by 9:00pm

What’s up with the numbers in JJ’s post of the response he received from Phil Anderson at WDFW? The expected run size for 2004/2005 is 13,148 steelhead. The state / tribal estimated escapement for 2005 is 10,909. Yet the expected non-treaty harvest is 6,757, and the expected treaty harvest is 3,963, for a combined harvest of 10,720. With a run size forecast at 13,148, minus a harvest of 10,720, leaves an escapement of 2,428. It looks to me like the state / tribal estimated escapement is in for a very rough season.

Sound fishery management doesn’t require absolutely precise run forecasts or even precise escapement estimates. However, it does require better arithmetic than the above scenario presents.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Good pick up on the "Montesano Math" Salmo.

While the tribes were busy netting all of those paper steelhead in December, it should interest you all to know that Bingham Creek Hatchery on the Satsop barely made its egg take for late run coho. Hard to imagine the wild late coho escapement fared any better either.

That's a MAJOR problem when armchair managers make all the decisions based on paper fish. Sometimes I wonder if these guys ever get out in the field (whoa, now there's a concept) to see with their own eyes what's really going on out there.

Salmo -
As I read the email from Anderson I understood the wild run size to be 13,148 fish with a QIN wild fish harvest of 1,954 and a recreational harvest of 99 wild fish (must be . The rest of the harvest was hatchery fish. While the numbers still don't add up - there are a thousand or so unaccounted for wild fish (expect they are being taken by one of the other tribes that fish the system).

FNP - Talking about "fuzzy math" - you reported that the Bingham hatchery just barely made its coho escapement. A review of WDFW hatchery escapement report showed that 10,200 coho (8,813 adults and 1,387 jacks) were trapped at the hatchery. Of these 1,223 were spawned. According to my math that would indicate that there were more than 8 times as many fish returning to the hatchery than needed. If that is just barely meeting brood stock needs we need to re-evaluate almost all our salmon fisheries.

In emotionally charged issues this business of throwing around mis-leading information does not help the discussion or your cause. The making of a valid point is helped when it is support by logic and sound data - not BS.

By the way as I read the sport regs on the system anglers can fish for steelhead/salmon every month but 1 (May) and sturgeon year-round.

Tight line
S malma

bingham made their early coho numbers but haven't made the late coho numbers yet and they're are getting worried they won't ....seems to be a lot less late coho than last year in the chehalis......

Smalma

I will stand by my assertion.. they got their last LATE RUN fish to meet goal yesterday. I believe that qualifies as just barely.

Plenty of early run fish... that wasn't the point of my post.

Peace!

You know what SMALMA I say what I think of your orginization all the time on this board.

I wish I could say what I think of you but I would get tossed out of here in a hurry.

The people on this board are tired of all the curruption and back door deals, the guesses and fraud on run sizes and escapement, the favortism of comercial interests and so on with every part of our fish and shelfish resource.

The state of Washington/tribes, (same entity when it comes down to it) will not be happy untill all wild fish are gone and they can comercially harvest as many fish as they want without those pesky wild fish to get in the way.

Smalma,

Thanks for noticing that. As it turns out, I did receive an email that Phil's run size estimate was for wild steelhead only, and not aggregated hatchery and wild. I didn't know I was looking at incomplete information. I think we all agree that having all the salient information is essential to understanding what's going on in the Chehalis basin.

Given the 5 day a week net fishery for months on end, it would be helpful to also know what the expected fishing effort is. If this were a full fleet fishery, it doesn't seem likely that the treaty harvest would be as low as predicted. Without more and better information, I can easily understand that many fishermen feel the steelhead stock is being managed into oblivion. If the effort is low, and the number of units of gear is also low, then the number of days/week fished doesn't appear so reckless.

I'd rather see better state and tribal communication of management information so that we're less likely to read about rumors of WDFW trading commercial steelheading for increased non-treaty commercial salmon fishing on the internet. I admit I was willing to accept that there might be substance to the rumor, given WDFW's lower Columbia gillnet intentions for wild steelhead, and that the poor December showing of steelhead in the Chehalis tribs and Humptulips recreational catch seemed to bear consistency to the rumor.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Rich, speak for yourself. Not all the "people on this board" think as you do, and what are you talking about "corruption?" Too many days netting on a native stock that might be in jeopardy is one thing. But conspiracy theories and blah blah blah about stuff like "corruption" is nonsense.

oops..meant to say as of last thursday they hadn't got their late coho number....

Bodysurf -
Thanks for catch my error - downside of posting prior to my first cup of coffee in the morning.

FNP - My apologies for my comments based on my mis-reading of your post - my error.

Tight lines
S malma

Gotta go along with salmonbelly.

I think it would be wonderful if we heard a report from any WDFW employee or tribal member (or advocate) that was not trying to justify a harvest issue in favor of MSY. The OJ trial is a good example of dueling science and contradictory evidence. Well I can dream can't I?

So?

I'll wait to tomorow to post what happen today at the SCPAC meeting to long of a day, 4 hour drive back from Olympia

The OJ trial??? Oh man. That case was not a good example of anything. Please!

The numbers that I have don't add up.
So until I can say anything, I have to have the right numbers.

Salmonbelly

Keep on being a sheep thats what they like. Its nieve to think our WDFW is run with honesty and good intentions.

Rich, aren't you a cop? Do you have a scintilla of evidence of corruption? Or do you just throw out crap like that for effect? If you can't discuss an issue rationally, then shut the hell up. Do I sound like a sheep?

I'd go with the latter... its all a conspiracy you know.

When I worked in La Push I had some spacific knoledge of some catch numbers of wild steelhead given to me by the fish buyer.

There was a situation that came up when some numbers were given by WDFW about somthing I had direct knoledge about the reality was the numbers given by the WDFW were 5 times lower. I said somthing about it and I got flamed big time. At that time I could not say anything about it unless I wanted to lose my job.

It had to do with the catch numbers of wild steelhead for 2001.

So what does your "eye witness account" have to do with your previous statement again???

You dont have to be a bio to know whats going on. I watched them fish for over three years for wild steelhead and talked to the fisherman, buyers proccessors. I saw the numbers with my own eyes. What I saw and what we are told are two very different things.

I lived next door to one of the bio's down there as well and got some pretty interesting info. He didnt hesitate to admitt what I already said.

The WDFW knows what is going on and do nothing about it. They take the info given to them at face value when they know whats really happening. That is dishonest and fraud if you ask me.

Its all bull ****. I have no faith at in the way our WDFW does buisness.

I too must question the validity of their numbers.

Let's go back to the issue of the tribal "steelhead" nets targeting late run coho in the Chehalis. If the total coho catch were really just 65 fish, why would they need 17 days of netting to accomplish that. Honestly, why would ANYBODY go gillnetting 17 days for a catch that lousey.... that's an average of less than 4 coho per day for ALL the nets combined! Or is it that they are just gluttons for hard work with little reward?

Too fishy to pass the smell test, if you ask me. Especially since late coho are the dominant species running the Chehalis corridor at that time of year.... 4 fish a day.... that's absolutely insane!

Sombody is thinkin.

The problem is WDFW expects people to just accept what they say and most people do. Maybe its because WDFW just accepts what the tribes say. I dont know what the deal is but I can tell you I have seen it first hand when the fish are comming out of the tribal fishermans boats onto the scales and into the buyers totes. I have been shown individual log books kept by tribal fisherman shown to me by them. On the quileute atleast just a couple of these guys have documentation that they harvested more than the entire reported catch for wild steelhead.

I dont know where the numbers are being fudged but the finished product that we see are very far from the truth.

I have seen alot of things. On many occasions I have seen Hoh fisherman come up and sell their fish in La Push for a better price or when they are not supposed to be fishing at all on the Hoh. From what I have been told buy the buyers those fish dont get counted agianst the quota or counted at all for that matter. I could go on and on but Im sure you get the point.

I put this on the other thread about WDFW's response to the allegations raised on the steelhead netting issue, but I figured it should go here as well:

How can this this reply be considered credible when in the same document, the state can't even decide if the sport impact from wild steelhead release is 800 fish or 99 fish?

The way I analyze this is that they are predicting about a 50:50 wild:hatchery return since they are counting on nonselective gillnets to harvest roughly 2000 wild and 2000 hatchery. It's reasonable to assume that the sport catch would fall in similar proportion. If we are projected to harvest 6500 hatchery fish, they probably are counting on us to encounter equal numbers of wild fish that must be released by regulation. If the C&R impact is 99 wild fish, the hooking mortality comes out to 1.5%. If the impact is 800 wild fish, then the hooking mortality comes out to 12.3%. Which is it?

The other thing I fear coming out of the WDFW numbers is justification for more wild harvest on the non-tribal side. This is just plain WRONG! Those "excess" wild steelhead should be invested in seeding the available gravel, not as an increase in sport harvest to appease some perceived inequity in tribal:nontribal allocation.

Two wrongs do not make it right!

If WDFW decides to allow wild retention for sports, that would only drive the total harvest (wild plus hatchery) into further imbalance as sports take an even bigger share of the total harvest. That will have the tribes crying foul and demanding even more netting time in the future.

Sports should NOT get sucked into this ridiculous scheme to allow retention of wild fish in the basin until all sides can honestly lay out what the future repercussions might be.

"Two wrongs do not make it right!"

This, is key...however, there is a contingent of sportfishers who don't view them as "wrongs", unless the tribe gets to catch them and they don't get to bonk what they catch.

If this is indeed a ploy to get sportfishermen to not give the tribal fishery too much flack, then it will work with some...because there will always be fishermen who do not consider the health of the resource, just the fairness factor of who gets to be the one to kill them, rather than asking if they ought to be killing them at all, either party.

Fish on...

Todd

True Todd and that is what WDFW is counting on.

A disparity in numbers doesn't necessarily equal fraud or corruption, which are criminal offenses. I admire your passion Rich, but don't get carried away. So many discussions here are obscured by assumpton, inuendo, hyperbole and, well, B.S. When that happens the person preaching them loses all credibilty to anyone whose not part of the choir. You'll have greater impact with honest indignation, such as simply saying five days per week of gillnetting on the wild stocks of the Chehalis system is totally unfair and freakin' outrageous!