Wolves in Washington

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008060806_apwawolfreturn5thldwritethru.html

Great news huh! Thought drawing tags was hard before?

It's a sad day. Lets hope they don't turn into the problem Idaho has had. We will never get this state to ok shooting them. they are hear to stay.


Kris

Huh???? I consider this great news!!! I hope we do have Idaho's problems. Not only are wolves good for Deer and Elk herds but they are also extremly benificial for trout and salmon. So a few ranchers lose a few cows.....Whaaaa! Theyv'e been running this state long enough!

Now if we can only get a few packs on the OP where they are really needed!!!!!!

I love to have the great preditors coming back. It brings the cycle full circle. But this state is really bad about how things are managed. The population will explode if no management is done and the seattle area will never let the colville/selkirk area do any management. Just like the hound hunting for cougars. People that make the laws have no idea what needs to be done and decide on emotion not logic.
I am excited to see them back but it is a scary thought that this side of the cascades will decide for that side how to manage wolves. We will see how it plays out.

Is being delusional fun? Wolf studies since reintroduction show no help for deer and elk herd, infact they point to just the opposite. While beneficial in Yellowstone, I seriously doubt they will do [censored] for trout and salmon here, unless they chase loggers, irrigators, gillnetters, and have a special taste for indians. Best case scenario, is still having shitty salmon and steelhead runs, but atleast there will be less big game hunting opportunities!

Greg what are you talking about?????? SSS
My elk area in ID has gone to [censored] since the wolves were introduced.

I gotta respectfully disagree with you here. There is a reason there aren't wolves out there... they were all killed by the people who live there.

It always seems warm and fuzzy to look out a window in Seattle (no offense) and think, "wow, isn't it cool that there are wolves over THERE..."

Introduced wolves on the OP will inevitably be killed by locals protecting their livestock, families, and pets. Knowing this, is hardly seems worth the MASSIVE expense on the taxpayers to reintroduce them...

If the goal is to "restore" the environment to pre-white man era, why not start by removing the huge highway that brings millions of people there every year??

Our whitetail area has pretty much ruined too over the last few years by wolves......things breed like rats.

Shoot, shovel, STF up!

100 years ago there was some room for them. Yellowstone has some room for them.

If you honestly believe that wolves will be benificial in any way in Wa. or Or. you havent got a clue as to what it is really like outside of your area.

I think introducing wolves is a great idea as long as they're introduced to seattle, bellevue, mercer island and kirkland first. We all can deal with them in the woods just fine.

Hmm.....Seems to be a trend here

Obvously management of any wolf packs need to be done thru hunting, which I wholeheartedly support, but I know that can be politically messed although it shouldn't be.

This should drive home my point about our state to all those looking at the issue. This is how things happen. Some group brind a suit and down goes all science. All about emotion and nothing about science. The decision process is broken when it comes to these issues. Just take the case to some judge in San Fran or Seattle and you can get whatever ruling you want no matter how stupid the decision is. Then it will be tied up in court for more years than you are alive.

GRAY WOLVES NOT TO BE DELISTED AS RECOMMENDED BY WILDLIFE MANAGERS. FEDERAL JUDGE BLOCKS EFFORT.

BILLINGS, Mont. — A federal judge has restored endangered species protections for gray wolves in the Northern Rockies, derailing plans by three states to hold public wolf hunts this fall.

U.S. District Judge Donald Molloy in Missoula granted a preliminary injunction late Friday restoring the protections for the wolves in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. Molloy will eventually decide whether the injunction should be permanent.

The region has an estimated 2,000 gray wolves. They were removed from the endangered species list in March, following a decade-long restoration effort.

Environmentalists sued to overturn the decision, arguing wolf numbers would plummet if hunting were allowed. They sought the injunction in the hopes of stopping the hunts and allowing the wolf population to continue expanding.

• Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Natural Science Center.

"There were fall hunts scheduled that would call for perhaps as many as 500 wolves to be killed. We're delighted those wolves will be saved," said attorney Doug Honnold with Earthjustice, who had argued the case before Molloy on behalf of 12 environmental groups.

RelatedStories
Western States Schedule Wolf Hunts Green Groups Suing Government Over Wolves' Endangered Status Wolves in Rockies to Be Taken Off Endangered List Feds Plan to Remove Some Wolves From Endangered List Wolf Rules Rile Ranchers, Wildlife Advocates In his ruling, Molloy said the federal government had not met its standard for wolf recovery, including interbreeding of wolves between the three states to ensure healthy genetics.

"Genetic exchange has not taken place," Molloy wrote in the 40-page decision.

Molloy said hunting and state laws allowing the killing of wolves for livestock attacks would likely "eliminate any chance for genetic exchange to occur."

The federal biologist who led the wolf restoration program, Ed Bangs, defended the decision to delist wolves as "a very biologically sound package."

"The kind of hunting proposed by the states wouldn't threaten the wolf population," Bangs said Friday. "We felt the science was rock solid and that the delisting was warranted."

Bangs said government attorneys were reviewing Molloy's court order and would decide next week whether to appeal to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

You guys nailed it right on. wolves have not been a good thing in any state when we are not allowed to manage them like other game.

And for putting wolves on the OP. now thats funny no matter who you are!! The locals out in that erea won't control them anybetter than the locals in Montanna, Idaho or any other state. I'm not against haveing wolves. It's just like was said. King County will have them managed like our bear and cats.


Shoot , shovel and shutup and make sure you put the radio collar on a train or cross country truck ASAP.

In my Opinion the reason the bunny hugers and Indians wanted them back in the lower states is all part of the grand plan to finally stop ALL hunting. With the over population of natural predators like the WOLF, Bear and Cougar they will have more muscle to stop hunting. Think about it!!!!


Kris

I'm tired of this treehugger hippie talk "the circle of life" crap.

The only way you are going to bring nature back to it's original state is to completley remove mankind from the equation.


We have broken islands of habitat in the lower 48.

What we are trying to achieve is an artificial balance without population crashes of predator and prey so everyone can be happy.

My buddy is heavily involved in the wolf control project in Alaska's unit 13.
He traps them all winter and then is the aerial gunner when they shift gears to reduction mode.
He sent me an 8x10 of 97 wolf hides tacked up on his barn after a successful season.
The limp wristed fags get their panties twisted and scream at the top of their lungs.."That's not hunting!" ..."That's not sporting!".
Hell no it ain't, it is a population control measure designed to artificially increase the moose & caribou populations.

Alaska fish & game has the balls to tell the stinking hippes to FO.










WAYYYYYYYYY too many sentimental lefty bastards in Washington to EVER let the game departments enact sound wildlife management as far as controlling wolf numbers.

I'm stuck down here in Cali with our "holy grail" predator the mountain lion.
I've seen five in the last two years while hunting.
My son saw one two nights ago.
My neighbor has legally killed nine in the last dozen years on depredation permits when they kill his livestock.
They kill an average of 20 a year in my county on depredation permits which is WAY more than fish & game had ever proposed back before the dumbass treehuggers tied their hands with prop 117 which took management of lions out of the game department's hands.

Bitter?
Hell yes I am, I'm sick of the emotional city dwellers that derive all their knowledge from animal planet dictating wildlife management that directly affects people that have to deal with predators.

Wipe them all out?
Absolutley not.

INSTILL A MANAGEMENT PLAN FROM THE START!

Remove ballot box wildlife management and leave management to the professionals.

....but that puppy is so cute. I'm sure if we got in touch with its feelings, and had a howl-in out at Wolf Haven.....

POW!

+1 I really like the wolf in the leg trap.


(FYI of the 18 of us that put in for X3a, only one drew this year)(it wasn't me )

The wolf thing is a complex deal. I live in Idaho and its been a hot topic. A couple of facts.

1> Elk harvest numbers are actually up
2> Elk herds have actually seen an increase in numbers
3> Certain units have seen a serious decline in elk numbers while others have not followed that trend. The Salmon river and Selway have been hit pretty hard by wolf related losses while the southern units, Boise and Payette for example have seen gains and have the same number of wolves around.

Why ??? they don't know why. Its pretty strange.

True story.. the biggest problem the anti wolf crowd has is the dip sticks they let do the talking for them. Its always some freaking rancher. This dude is crying about losing money, and appealing to hunters to help him out. However, he is the same rancher who has thousands and thousands of acres of land locked up and has zero intention of letting any " hunters" on his land. Never has, and never will. But he wants your help.

A couple of years ago, a Grangeville guy was out chasing bears with hounds. Bad deal.. a pack of wolves killed his pack of hounds. So this gets national attention. Here is how the nation viewed it. " There I was beating up a Mexican, and a car full of Niggers stopped and beat my ass !!! can you believe it !!"..

So then you get some bubbas blabbing away on T.V about how wolfs should all be killed and whatever. The Peta types just pick them apart because rednecks are so freaking stupid. They have a valid point but they have to say a bunch of other ignorant crap to go along with it. The avg sportsman gets lost in the wash.

Same deal with the freaking NRA.. and the whole fruit cake gun nut crowd. I love guns. So why do I always have to have some douche bag with a AK 47 talking about how we should all carry guns to work and bla bla bla.. out front doing the talking for me.

I forgot what the topic was

Yep, I would love to see wolves but only if we are allowed to control them. The wolf is a really cool animal and very smart. I agree. We can't hunt them if we have them. my problem is we won't be allowed to do anything to control them. wdfw won't even be allowed to harm them. look at the sea lions. we trap them and take them back to the ocean just to return again and again.



Those picks of all the hides are cool. what happens to them? does he sell them? I want some of them if he does!!! my little 1 year old girl loves playing with her coon skins. I bet she would love a few wolf hides to roll around with!!! she's growing up to really love animals. LOL

funny thing about our deer unit in Idaho. the wolves have only been killing the BIG bucks and only when they are in rut. now the moose have really been hit hard and the elk are ok but so damn spooky it's unreal. One cow call or bugle and they will run. you won't ever hear a real elk talk anymore for fear of the wolves. One guy we talked to was doing some little chirps while archery hunting from a stand and the next thing he knew he had wolves under him!!! I personally thought it would be cool but would freek some guys out. LOL


Kris

Was scouting this last weekend over in the Naches area and came across a pair of wolves. I knew they were coming back, just didn't know they were that far south yet. Makes sense they would find the elk herds but I sure was surprised to see them. They sure weren't afraid of anything. No experience around wolves but it looks like I'll get some this fall.

Can't wait till bow season!

Stam and B-run have the true jist of what happens. The story of a coyote killing the neighbors cat gets turned into a pack of wolves ruined my deer spot and I am going to arm myself to the teeth next time I go drinking..............................................I mean hunting.

It would be nice to have a few wolves to kill the sick and the weak. Unfortunatley you cant just have a few these days. Its all or nothing kind of attitutde. People did not like wolves in the past and they sure arent going to like them now. I cant stand the political/management aspect of the situation. There is no agreement on what to do. If the past is an example it will only get worse when no consensus is reached. I cant stand the the sky is falling because there are wolves in the woods attitude either.

Unfortunately studies have shown that wolves do not kill just the sick and the weak by any stretch, They kill bulls, breeding age cows, and calves more than anything else. (great news huh!)

Yeah, well the funny thing is, once they eat the bulls and breeding age cows and calves, they'll either starve or have to learn to shop at Safeway.

You kill bulls, right? Are the elk there to feed you and you alone? Or is anything that inconveniences you and your hunt something we should get rid of?

Just playing some 'devil's advocate' here. I'll play the other side of the fence later today.

OceanSun,

Did you get picks? I sure hope they wern't real wolves. maybe just some of those hybrid. I use to Archery hunt that same erea. Now that I think of it we did find a wolf track in the snow. it was going across the road a few times as it went into a deep rocky canyon near haystack rock. would that be near wherer you were? oh ya did you see any turkey? rumor has it they are getting good numbers going in that erea. I use to spend ALLOT of time in those hills. untill gas prices got so bad. now I play closer to home.

my uncle talked to a guy who I think was an owner or maybe a regular at wistling Jacks who showed him picks of a Grizzly between chinook and White pass. land marks and all in the pics. WDFW even looked at his pics. When showed a seperate pic without the bear in the same spot they said yes that is the right land marks of where you are telling us you took this pic. then he pulled out a pic of the bear and they said yes that is a grizz. when showed the pic of the bear with the land mark they told him he didn't take that pic in that erea and it must be a trick. the ydidn't want people to know they had Griz bears that far south.

Same uncle seen a wolverine up @ Ravens Roost one winter. it was in my dads tracks as he was after an elk.


Back in the late 80's my dad use to hunt the St. Hellens erea allot. they seen wolves now and then. He found out that weyhauser had planted some timber wolves to try and control the deer population.


we have had allot of criters that most people would never see and WDFW would not want people to know about. and NOW WE HAVE WOLVES!!! guess what they never left!!! we have allways had a few just like the wolverine and grizz.


Kris


Kris

[quote=Dan S.]Yeah, well the funny thing is, once they eat the bulls and breeding age cows and calves, they'll either starve or have to learn to shop at Safeway.

You kill bulls, right? Are the elk there to feed you and you alone? Or is anything that inconveniences you and your hunt something we should get rid of? [End Quote]

I would compare it to introducing northern pike into your favotite steelhead rivers.
Sportsmen funded conservation organizations have worked for decades to improve habitat and wildlife populations.
Elk, mule deer, bighorn sheep, moose have flourished as a result.
The wolfhuggers take great pride in the fact that hunters are upset with the exploding wolf population .

I in NO WAY want to exterminate any species of wildlife.
If you control the prey numbers you simply have to control the predator numbers as well or be content to live with crashes in the numbers of both predator and prey.

There IS a sustainable medium to be had.

I saw a whitetail hualing ass from two wolves in heavy timber last year while hunting in Idaho.....I never thought such an animal could move so fast through that dense of forest. Like I've heard many times...."theres a reason our ancestors got rid of tthe damn things." lol Friends went to Idaho last yuear on an elk hunt and they never heard a bugle the seven days they were there, yet they hear an amazing amount of wolves everynight from camp. They came to conclusion a bull bugling would be same same as ringing the dinnerbell.....



Jake

If there were ever any pike in the rivers I fish that might be a valid comparison, but that's not the case. They are REintroducing wolves, not introducing them.

Whether or not that's a good idea is certainly debatable, though.

Yes that is true, but the studies are really showing this is true when there are too many wolves. You have to understand that wolves are predators and very buisness like. Every predator weighs it options before making a kill. They ponder four questions. How hungry am I/we? How much energy do I/we have to use to make a kill? How much energy will I/we gain from the kill? How much injury will I/we absorb by making a kill? When there are too many wolves and competittion for food is high; they are willing to expend more energy and take more injury to eat. When the population of wolves is low they will take the easy prey everytime i.e sick, weak, young. When population is high, they will take an antler poke or two, or get dropped kicked by a big cow. Yes, sometimes a big bull tired from walking in belly high snow, is weak, and alone. This fits into the wolves buisness plan. But usualy they will takes what is easy.


This is my reasoning for just having a few wolves i.e. proper management through hunting. Political crap, fear hype, and lack of education makes this difficult.

where we hunt in Idaho they have found several small herds of elk dead. they were killed by the wolves and left. they didn't make any attempt to eat them. They ran them into the low ereas where the snow was deeper and when the elk got bogged down they were ham strung and left. these wolves are not the native ones. they were imported and are sapose to be the only known strain to kill just for fun.

the idea they only eat the week or sick is just a bunch of BS the bunny huggers want to brain wash people with. yes, we should have wolves but only if we are allowed to control them from becomeing the problems they are in other states.

like I said before. bringing the wolves back is just part of the big plan to eliminate hunting. Same with doing away with hound hunting for other things like bear and cat.

Kris

Dude.... thats just plain B.S

" who are THEY ???"

I have lived and hunted in Idaho my entire life, and can tell you that what your saying is not a "documented" fact... You throw up where you found that little FYI or stop talking. The fish and game publishes - every - single - wolf related incident thats happened in the last 12 years.. and " several small herds of elk left and not eaten " by wolves is not in any of them. Sheep... yea, its happened a bunch, and I really don't have any sympathy for the ranching community ( sucking on the big government boob while trying to play the poor guy, and locking up more acres than you can dream of )

Am I a wolf lover.. not even. I do believe that its a vehicle to get hunters out of the woods. Do I know better than to blow redneck speculation as " my side" of the story.. hell yes.

Something needs done in Idaho. What Idaho really does not need is crap Myths floating around because the Peta types are smart... Wolves are old news here.. they get monitored beyond your wildest imagination. Unless you can trace a wolf incident to a factual source, leave it alone.

On that subject.. another pack of 6 Walker hounds out hunting Bears were lost to wolves last week in the Clearwater drainage near Smith ridge. This " fact " was just published today. If you need a link for that I got one

B-Run

whoa dude!!!

You know as well as me allot happens in the back woods that don't get published. I don't know the exact erea as I didn't find them. The guy I know who is a local said one of his buddies found it and it was not the first time they had seen this happen. I belive they said it was 7 animals they had just found. I could care less if it was "reported" these guys have no intrest in making it up. They allso had told me about the dogs getting killed by the wolves. and as you know it is not the first time.

I don't know how me telling of wolves killing for fun is going to help PETA? people need to know these wolves are not the same wolves that were found in these parts. It would be like taking steelhead from chambers creek and puting them in the Clearwater. Steelhead yes but not the same.


oh ya did you hear the one about the pack of wolves that ran into a school yard and kiled all the kids!!! now that would be a red neck story.


Kris

Definately wolves but no pics. Didn't see or hear any turkey but wasn't listening/looking for them. and, oh yeah, no elk over there either so the rest of you guys should just stay home!

Yes,
Wolves do have an impact on the deer and elk populations, They also have an impact on the mouse, squirrel, and rat populations, that is when there is enough of a population to warrant the energy they use to go after the prey.
Lets face it Wolves have been a part of the ecosystem long before we or our parents or grand parents or great grandparents were born.
When people started ranching and raising cattle, Horses, ect, This was like a free meal to the predators.
To this day it still is, and that is why the ranchers and the government, over time basically eradicated the wolf population.
Ever hear of anyone seeing a Cascade mountain wolf?
Used to be a local wolf that is now extinct in Washington.
Although an old hunter I know swears he saw one in the 1960's.
I do believe that wolves as well as coyotes are oppertunistic hunters and they will take down any animal they can if there is an opportunity to do so even if they are not hungry.
Think about your average well fed house cat who still chases mice and birds and drops them at your feet but does not eat them.
Personally I think it would add to my hunting and outdoor experience to hear the howl of wolves nearby once again in this state.
Ramprat

So what would the point of not reporting that be ??

Well, something like that would be of great interest to a lot of people.. and if it was documented, would help with the cause. Instead, its just another story. The other side ?? they just deal with the facts, and are smart enough to use those facts to their advantage. What we get from the anti wolf crowd is a whole bunch of " how I feel " and very little " what we know".

The whole derailment plan to remove wolves from the endangered species list is because the State of Wyoming decided to take the redneck approach and declare " open seasons shoot on sight " which everyone knew would not fly, and they did it anyway.. look what we got in response.

True story, a few months ago there was a concentrated push by several "groups" that wanted .. " fire free zones and established wolf viewing areas set up so they could go up into the hills during hunting season and view wolves without fear of bullets flying around "

Its was pretty funny. The responses that got through the local media. As if wolves were going to show up at any given place so yuppies could check them out at their convenience.. Wolves, being wolves.. would do what wolves do. Mostly lean against light posts smoking cigarettes and whistling at chicks " Hey.. butch chick in the Range Rover with the rainbow sticker !!! Show me your tits !! "

B-Run


I agree with you and would report soemthing like that if I found it myself. I'm not sure why they didn't say anything. Some of these backwoods people just don't like the gov poking around their parts asking questions. Maybe they just figured they would catch up with the wolves and take care of them. I will be calling them in the next few days to get some plans going for this years deer season. I will try and find out a little more info where they found them and if it was reported. maybe they did and it was just ignored.

The last part of yer post. Thats funny but in the eyes of so many yuppies. I think that is exactly how they think it works.

Kris


Kris

Two of my favorite sayings heard in Idaho:
Save 100 elk...shoot a wolf.
Three legged wolves don't kill no elk.

My personal observation is that the wolves have changed hunting. The elk in our area have changed their behavior. You rarely see lone elk and you don't hear elk very often. We have seen the bulls stick with their herds after the rut. We think it's a safety thing. The elk also move around a lot more than they used to.

I do think there are less elk and hunting them has become more difficult. When the pack comes into one of our drainages the elk immediately leave. They come back a day or two after we stop seeing or hearing wolves.

It doesn't help that a breeding pair of wolves was introduced near our area 10 or so years ago.

On the plus side everyone knows the wolves were introduced in this area and hunting pressure has plummeted.

Having just hunted deer in Idaho for the first time last year, my personal opinion about them isn't fully formed yet. BUT, it was raised a few hackles when, after helping a local load a nice whitetail into his truck, the conversation turned to the wolves and grizzlies in the Panhandle. That local hunter said the grizzlies aren't a real problem unless you surprise one, otherwise just give it room. The wolves, on the other hand "them bastards will circle ya..be careful."
Living on the Wa. coast, I'm not crazy about an introduction here, either. Between the cougars, indians, and illegal alien poachers, the deer populations here are not what they were.

Being attacked by a wolf, mountain lion or bear is the least of the worries a hunter should face.
A competent hunter should really fear no beast if he uses his most deadly weapon, his brain.

It is the impact on prey species and the inability to keep the wolves in targeted areas that is the problem.
Wolves are an incredibly efficient predator, can you imagine if grizzlies or mountain lions hunted in packs?
They are the pirahnnas of the woods when it comes to their hunting tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi0J3CFqiXo&feature=related

They do sometimes hunt solo....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vkh64YT_wQ&feature=related

Cast this,

Maybe B-Run will know more about the wolves bothering people. The people I know in Idaho have told me the wolves havn't bothered anybody yet. the few times they did get circled were when they were cow talking and the wolves came in and thought they were elk. I would be curius to know if they have infact had anyreports of people getting chewed on by a wolf. I know when I am gutting my deer I allways have my handgun out and no more than 2' from me. probably still wouldn't do much good if a pack wanted me. Just makes me feel better.

As for the deer populations in WA. I think you nailed the resons right on the head!!! When I went through the CORT class the wdfw officer told us something like 3 or 4 deer are poached for every 1 taken legally. that is a staggering thought!!


Kris

I started huntiing Idaho when I was a kid. About 10 or 11. I can remeber seeing herds of elk that would put to shame any sort of herd today. Same goes for the amount of deer you see. Having smaller numbers is not necissarily the problem. The amount of wolves that are showing up are the problem. Ten years ago there were only maybe one or two sightings that I can recall within a couple years of reintroduction to the wild. About five years later that number rocketed. Soon after that you started to see the pictures of them showing up. That is when things started to get disturbing. The problem with the wolves is not that they prey on the animals that we all like to hunt. The biggest problem is the fact that they have a tendency to chase and kill animals for fun. Some of you may be thinking this is absurd, but that is the facts. It is widely known that these guys do this. It has been witnessed and documented the killing of does that are pregnant. The wolves just run them into exhaustion. They dont eat them, they dont even bother with the fawn that is born too soon as a result of the body stress imposed. Basically a natural abortion. Thereby killing two deer in one shot that is wasted.

Hunting the elk is another story. It has become extremely difficult to hunt them and calling is even tougher. They seem to have resorted to short locator sessions. And then you do not here them for days. This is mostly due to the fact the wolves show up. Last year my family and I were hunting an area that we had scouted and cased out a couple of bulls that were more than acceptable shooters. We came in on the day after opening knowing exactly what their habits were and that evening set in and made out calls. We got one bull in and that was it. The next day nothing. No cows, calves, bulls to speak of. Wouldn't you know it. The next night a guy from another camp was in an area about a mile away from where we called and headed back for the night when he crossed paths with a female and a cub. We did not see or here another elk or call for a week before we finally moved to another area completely.

The wolves did nothing to the man. We were never circled up that we know of. And the wolves were happy to get along their way. I have yet to hear of any aggresive behavior towards humans yet. But like anything else in nature, it is only a matter of time. Ranchers have already started to take things into their hands though.

I think what the main problem here is that the wolves that were reintroduced were Canadian wolves. They were introduced into an area that, to the best of my knowledge, was always timber wolf country. A smaller and less invasive wolf than the previously mentioned. With no other predators to keep them and the young in check, they have a seemingly endless boundry to territory they can claim. That coupled with the over abundant prey species, i.e. deer, elk, coyote, and anything else that moves, and you have a infestation. They need to be there. They take care of the things like the half dead zombie deer and elk walking around infected with CWD. And any other weaker of the species. But they do need some sort of regulation. And with nothing left to keep them in check that has to be us.

What kept the wolves "in check" before? Predators are generally controlled by the available food. I was unaware of wolves having something regualary eating them.

Nope, noone is eating them. Sorry if that is what I seemed to say. The thing I was getting at was competition. There is no competition for them. So they are free to roam wherever to get to the overabundance of food that is available everywhere. Where as before, there were other wolves that kept the populations in check, which in turn would give no reason to the other species to spread beyond their normal range of inhabitance. I am not a biologist. I just know what I have seen happening over the last 15 or so years.

If you run into a wolf while hunting it isnt that big of a deal. You dont need to call all your friends or post it on the net. Just take a deep breath. relax, enjoy nature and all that it offers. Then reload and continue hunting..........

X100

Funny you should mention that. I was returning from elk hunting for two weeks up in the St. Helens area about three years ago, while driving along the river a wolf ran across the road. I nearly hit it. At first I was thinking to myself, "God damn that was the biggest damn coyote I have ever seen." Then I thought about it a little more trying to talk myself out of what it really was.


B-RUN

Gotta agree with you on that one. We have a huge problem as sportsmen. We all want our own hunting but have absoloutely no organization worth a damn to put up a good enough fight.

You could take out "wolf" in all the above posts and put in any number of animals or fish, and the conversation would sound just the same...

The biggest problem with conversations like this is that usually the two sides of the debate are talking apples and oranges...some folks have a real, real hard time discerning the difference between "good for the animals" and "good for my hunting opportunities"...they are not the same thing, and often times are exactly the opposite thing.

I don't have much of an opinion either way on this one...I'm just struck by the parallels between this conversation and conversations surrounding fish management and artificial propogation, and the oftentimes mystifying argument that if I can't hit it in the head with a rock or shoot it dead, then what's the point of it even being there?

Fish on...

Todd

Todd hit that nail on the head. Too often, and not just in conservation, the matra is "I want mine" but you can't have yours. Whether it be housing, roads, water, view lots, or whatever it seems that humans, as a species, can't (or more likely, won't) see beyond their own immediate needs.