Ok, we have talked, hooks and line....what about Knots?

What kind of knots do you all tie...there are many some good some not so good. And have any of you tried the Tiemaster tool by Joe Little??

Jim

I use the "river's inlet knot" I like the fact that the line goes through the swivel 2x to give it more strength.

I've been using Tiemaster for 2 years now and find it great. It is really easy to learn and fast to use. I have broke fish off but never because of a knot failure. Joe Little did a great job of reasearch and design.

[This message has been edited by Retired (edited 10-12-2000).]

Double improved clinch knot.Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE

Thanks retired...how I got interested in the knot tier is after reading a quote from Clancy Holt saying that "It is an absolute must for fisherman. It really makes the difference in knot strength, especially with Super Lines and Super Braids! I endorse it 100% It really works! I have it on all of my rods with my power pro and have had no problems.

Jim

I like using the rivers inlet knot for two reasons. First it is the strongest knot I've tried and it gets you off a lot of snags you might not have otherwise.(especially with spoons and spinners) Secondly, I can use the same pound mainline as leader if I get to the river and decide I would like to use a beafier leader. I will simply tie a rivers inlet knot from mainline to swivel and a double clinch knot from leader to swivel. Even with the same line I never lose all my gear.

[This message has been edited by Monty (edited 10-12-2000).]

So Monty and Rogue...how do you tie the Rivers Inlet Knot??

Jim

For lures, until it fails me, I'll keep using the improved clinch knot w/ a good length of tag. Drift fishing/mooching rigs, egg bumper knot. Steelhead flies, duncan loop. Fly leaders blood knot, overhand loops & nail knot leader to fly line.

what exactly is the tiemaster,thats a new one on me.and maybe a little more detail on the rivers inletknot? thanks guys

I'm not sure if this is the Tiemaster that this thread is referring to, but I found this description of a "Tiemaster" on the web: Designed to tie monofilament or string lines, this spring-loaded fisherman's knot-tying tool makes fast work of tying a variety of knots including the clinch, palomar, single, double, snell and nail knots. It is pocket-size and will hold any fishhook in six different positions and any fly hook in four positions without harming the feathers or affecting its design shape. It provides a safety hook holder and dispenser, and the contoured handle allows for a natural grip (right or left-handed) by both adults and children. The suggested retail price is $9.95, which includes tax, shipping and handling. Tiemaster Manufacturing, 4855 El Verano, Atascadero, CA 93422; (626) 303-4644 or fax (626) 303-5656. (there's also a picture of it at http://www.goodsamclub.com/highways/11_99/product_13.cfm ) I haven't tried it, but if Clancy says it's trick...that's enough for me.

On the River's Inlet Knot, I have to agree, that's the strongest knot I've found, but it's still critical to test it after tying as it sometimes binds up when you pull it tight (be sure to wet before you tighten it). I got turned on to this knot when I read about it a few years ago in Bill Herzog's book "Color Guide to Steelhead Drift Fishing" The knot is pictured on page 28 at the lower right in this book. (Frank Amato Publications at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1878175599/qid%3D/002-5664644-2992861 ) and there is also a new book I see at Amato Publications by Herzog that's on nothing but tying knots, but I haven't read that one (see at http://www.bcbooks.com/tiestrongfishknot.html ). Anyway, the Rivers Inlet Knot is basically a jazzed up Clinch Knot, and to tie it you just fold the end of a leader back about 5" and then pinch down the end loop tight and put it through the eye of the hook and pull the loop out far enough to make four wraps around both the main line and the tag line and then stick the end loop back through the first loop next to the hook eye (not through the eye) you created with the first line wrap. As you can probably tell from that...tying knots is hard to do/describe without pictures. I use this knot on the swivel end of my 10# Berkley Vanish fluorocarbon drift leader and I've landed 25# kings on the Satsop with it. You have to be sure and wet the knot before pulling it tight though and triple-check it for strength! Good luck and have fun.

[This message has been edited by SteelyBob (edited 10-17-2000).]

Steely....good research but that is a different one than the one I am talking about...hmmmm....the one that I am talking about was designed by Guide Joe Little and as I have learned actually doubles the line strength of Berkely Fireline...as tested at Berkeleys lab....well....I will need to make a phone call and find out...Thanks,


Jim

Hey Jim Bain, oh well...sorry that's not the right Tiemaster...I searched using http://www.Google.com and that's all I could find by that name, and I couldn't find a thing under the guide name "Joe Little." I'd be interested in seeing what the Tiemaster looks like too, so post what you find out here for me if you would.

The reference to Bill Hertzog's book will get you to the river's inlet knot. I like it because I can tie my leaders long and then just bend em over at the lenght that I need for that day.

Jim, I'm sorry I misled you a little. I went ahead and repeated your name of "tiemaster".
This is in error. The name is "knots for all". This is the one designed by Joe Little and I'm sure the one recomended by Clancy. I don't have a phone number but the address where you can get all the information is:

Knots For All
PO Box 12453
Mill Creek, Wa. 98082-0453

Joe Little has been a guide on the Cowlitz for many years. I would put him right up there with Clancy. He is one of the few professionals left.

Jim I use the tiemaster and like it a lot. Hang it around your neck so it is handy. I think Clancy dose the same thing. And once you learn how to tie the knot it is easy. Have never had a problem with knot strength.

All right...got things squared away after a talk with Joe Little. Retired...you didn't mislead me...the "knot for all" was renamed tiemaster. Yes Clancy does use it exclusively, so does Mike Kelley of Hells Anglers, he has been around for ever...in fact Mike boasts of only having to tie his mainline knot once per season while fishing the Kenai and then comes down here and uses the same knot on the Columbia Kings. Ron Buntrock Fishboss Guide Service and Rogue River Guides President also keeps one around his neck. Guys if these top pros are using it then it works better than anything else they have used. After talking with Joe...he will sell the tool for an even 7.00 which includes shipping and handling, instructions included.

You can email to littletiemaster@yahoo.com

I will post some more staggering facts regarding this knot later...right now I am tired!

Jim

River's inlet knot. This knot ceases to amaze me, not only with its strength, but also its durability. I think its bulkiness is the key. It eliminates the need to run a bead between the knot and swivel when running a sliding weight with drift gear. Just leave a half-inch tag end on the doubled mainline and the sliding swivel's eye will not run over the knot.

I've been using a little different way to tie an eggloop lately. I put the line through the eye and make a loop that lays on the shank, then wrap the line and shank by passing the loop over the end of the hook about ten times. This all gets pulled tight and snugged up to the eye and then both ends are cut off close to the knot. This is just a bumper knot on the hook. Now repeat the same knot below the bumper and you are done. The advantages are ,IMHO, it is easy to tie,you can tie a bunch of hooks with the bumper knot and the tie an eggloop in just a few seconds when you need one, you can re-tie a hook without cutting the leader off the swivel , you don't have too pull the whole leader back through the knot to tighten it up,this can score the line . It also eliminates a weak part of a regular eggloop, and that is where the line is bent back around the front of the eye to start the first wraps. If the leader is going to be used for cutplug or spinner herring, I leave a whisker on the bumper knot that sticks out through the eye of the forward hook. This helps to keep the towing hook from pulling through the herring. I've caught many fish with this knot and haven't had a knot failure yet.
Geez,I'm having a hard time swallowing that one mainline knot lasting all season,well maybe the knot, but what about the line getting chaffed on the landing net or strecthed from pulling off snags or all the other things that happen. Maybe they only happen to me.

Marty does really good illustrations of knots on his website, maybe we can get him to illustarte the tiemaster and the rivers inlet knot on his site,
what do you say marty?
Tony

Hi Rainy,
The tiemaster can't be illustrated because it is tied with a tool...I know that Joe Little the inventer of the tool would like to get a diagram of the "Rivers Inlet" knot so that he could tie it and do a break test.


Jim

The Rivers Inlet knot is a four twist clinch knot tied with the line doubled up.

So Keta,
Do you double the line on itself and put the loop through the eye and then tie a cinch not? Is that what you mean?

Jim

Jim, Ya that's right.
This is probably splitting hairs, but I think a double uni knot is more consistant in it's breaking strenth than the Rivers Inlet knot. This is from some very unscientific knot breaking tests using a fish scale.

[This message has been edited by Keta (edited 10-17-2000).]

Got this email from Guide Mike Kelly today and thought I would share it with you. If any of you are interested in the Joe Little Tiemaster email me with your address and I will let Joe know to mail one to you...his charge is $7.00 which includes shipping and handling.

Here is what Mike Kelly wrote to me...

I USE JOES KNOT TOOL RELIGOUSLY. MY TUFF LINE ON MY REELS IN ALASKA
SOME
OF MY KNOTS HAVE NOT BEEN CHANGED FOR 3 YEARS JUST AS STRONG AS EVER.
THIS IS THE BEST KNOT EVER INVENTED. TAKE MY WORD FOR IT . I HAVE
HUNDREDS OF KENAI KINGS TO PROOVE IT. EVEN ONE 87 POUNDER NO ONE HAS
CAUGHT AS MANY ON JOES KNOT AS ME I SWEAR BY IT. MIKE KELLY HELLS
ANGLERS

That is a pasted quote from my email.

Also...tested what I thought was the Rivers Inlet knot...don't think I have all the directions on how to tie it so if anyone can help...

Thanks,

Jim

I don't know about you but I would be pretty leary about fishing with a guide who doesn't change his line or knots for three years.

Jim,
If you lose a 50 pounder,
does the knot (the rivers inlet) fail?
just giving you a bad time..*L*

Rainy.....absolutelypositivelywithnodoubt!!
LOL....

As for trusting the guide....Mike has been at the business for a very long time and I he is in the business of catching fish and does a great job of that...would I trust him? Yes I would...but then again I know him. Plus many other pros are doing the same thing, maybe a new era in knot tying has arrived!?

Jim

Jim, If you can tie a clinch knot you should be able to tie the Rivers Inlet knot, just double the line up.
Whats the point of using the same knot or line for three years. If I were a guide I don't think I would take a chance on looking foolish to a customer when a knot or line breaks on a fish of a lifetime. Line is cheap and knots are easy to tie. How does he know the three year old knots and line are as strong as ever?

Hey HammerBob, 5 years ago I started using tuff line for all my bottom fishing in Ak. every year I have a few guests who get there line wrapped in my kicker, I have 3 reels that have multiple splices in them (blood knots)and I have yet to have have a knot failure, after this past season I decided 5 years was enough, I'll respool this spring and expect to get another 4-5 years. Only other knots I use, improved cinch and uni.

Rainycity, Marty's gone. Something about a fued in forks. You'll have to visit his site at www.steelheader.net I believe it is to check out the knots. Lots of good info there. I can't imagine why he doesn't get very much traffic.
Is this Rivers Inlet knot anything like the Trilene Knot?
I don't use braided or super lines, just plain old Ande'. How about a link to a diagram of this knot.
Last but not least, I can't resist the chance to revive an old blast. Ask Dan S. how to tie on a K-16 Kwickfish so it is gauranteed to come off at the hook set. I still havn't figured out how he did that.
grumpyr

[This message has been edited by grumpyr (edited 10-20-2000).]

Here's the River's Inlet Knot (a.k.a. a double clinch knot) shown step-by-step as tied on the following web page: http://www.steelheader.net/knots/double_clinch.htm
When properly tied and trimmed you'll have three tag ends. If I'm splitshoting...I'll put it on one of the tag ends and if the shot hangs up in the rocks...it just pulls off and leaves my leader to drift free.

Hey AKKings, Out of all the costs for going fishing the price of line is one of the most inconsequencial ones. I use Fusion for all my fishing (well most of it anyway) and do get two years out of it. On the second year I spool it onto another reel so the protected inside layer is now the outside. Since these lines have no memory no problem. At the end of two years I feel better with new line...cheap insurance to me! However, blood knots in the middle of lines are a far cry from knots at the terminal swivels where all the action is. In my experience these spots take abuse from bottom structure and should be re-tied at least at the beginning of every fishing day...maybe even after a particularly nasty hangup or big fish which may have stressed the knot. Granted the post quoting the guide did not indicate which knots or what type of knots where not re-tied for three years. You conclude it is the bloodknot splices...I conclude it is at the terminal tackle. For a guide not to re-tie the knots at the leader and swivel before every trip to me is lazy. Whenever I have fished with a guide I re-tie all the knots myself before we start fishing. I just don't believe that they get re-tied everyday and I don't want to put a damper on a trip by knot failure...unless it was one I tied myself! Whatever if a guide told me he hasn't re-tied his knots for three years I would not be impressed...other than to think he doesn't get many clients, or he was to cheap to replace the line or to lazy to re-tie the knots...my $0.02 worth.

Knots I use palomar and double improved clinch.

[This message has been edited by Hammer Bob (edited 10-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Hammer Bob (edited 10-20-2000).]

I like to use the palomar knot, whenever possible- 100% strength of the line, and quick to tie. A good book on the subject, is Tying Strong Fishing Knots, by B. Herzog, many others out there, can't think of them right now.