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#912280 - 11/05/14 11:56 AM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Carcassman]
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 855
Loc: Monroe WA
Nice cut n paste Mr. g.....especially on election day! Talk about spin! why even Obamacare is worst for wild steelhead than brats.

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#912305 - 11/05/14 01:28 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Backtrollin]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1269
Loc: WaRshington
Originally Posted By: Backtrollin

I am tired of these guys using out of basin science to back up their side of the discussion. Lets see some in basin science before we start making decisions...oh wait, we passed that point.


Or how about ANY science.

I don't see WFC providing much scientific basis for their onslaught of lawsuits.
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#912323 - 11/05/14 02:21 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: GodLovesUgly]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The recent WFC lawsuits are about complying with the law. WDFW didn't. It allows WFC to get what it wants without having to debate the science. As long as WDFW foregoes legal compliance they'll keep losing in court; even if science is on their side.

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#912371 - 11/05/14 07:37 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Carcassman]
WN1A Offline
Spawner

Registered: 09/17/04
Posts: 594
Loc: Seattle
Another interesting thread to read through I am not sure what it is about. I thought it might be related to wild steelhead survival but I think it may be more about who gets the last one. Three of the 4 H’s, habitat, harvest, and hatcheries, are a big part of the discussion. Science, management, and law are a part of the discussion. I think its is important to realize that management operates in a framework of laws, laws enacted by politicians, hopefully representing the public and not some special interest. Science is the attempt to understand the physical and natural world. The public, lawmakers, and management can embrace science that supports their beliefs, can ignore science that conflicts with what they want, even suppress what might be deemed dangerous, and on occasion change to accept a scientific reality.

Salmo g. posted a good example of the above from the current issue of the Osprey. The thesis is “The basic step to recovery is GET RID OF HATCHERY STEELHEAD. PERIOD.” The arguments to support the thesis are a hodgepodge of bits of science, of opinion, and wistful conjecture. I am not convinced that the argument supports the thesis. A better article that appeared in the same issue of the Osprey is by Elizabeth Daly, “Wild Steelhead Survive Better than Hatchery Fish in Marine Environment”. I am not going to post the article but a summary of what it contains can be found in the link below. Look at the first abstract in Session Five - Climate Change And Ocean Ecology of Steelhead. For those who believe there is little science related to steelhead explore this link and learn.

Steelhead Science

If it were possible to eliminate hatcheries, eliminate harvest (would follow if hatcheries were gone), restore freshwater habitat to what is was 100 years ago, and even get rid of dams I doubt that there woulds be a dramatic increase in wild steelhead populations. Habitat is the problem, for anadromous species habitat includes the marine environment. For salmon, steelhead and chinook in particular, the marine component of their life history is a critical stage. Salmon deposit a lot of eggs in the gravel, 1000’s per female, to insure that enough adults return to maintain the population. Only a small number of those eggs make it to the marine environment as smolts. The majority of their growth and maturation take place in the marine environment. Steelhead are unique among Pacific salmon in that they don’t stay in the coastal zone for an extended period of time. That is a significant point in the Daly article mentioned above. In the many years of sampling steelhead smolts leaving the Columbia River were at the western boundary of the sample zone in 10 days or less. Steelhead are resident in the marine environment, from one up to four years, in the Gulf of Alaska and the Eastern Pacific and during that time there is always some ongoing mortality. Ocean sampling has demonstrated that steelhead are only found in a narrow range of sea surface temperatures (SST). There is a southern high temperature limit and a northern low temperature limit. This narrow band of SST’s suitable for steelhead extends across the North Pacific. With climate change this band will shift North. SST measurements show this is happening and models predict how it will change. A quick look at a globe or a map shows that as the southern thermal boundary moves North the suitable ocean habitat for steelhead shrinks. One model predicts that by the end of the century ocean steelhead habitat will shrink by 36%. Look at the second presentation in Session Five in the link above.

Habitat loss due to thermal consideration is only part of the problem. Climate change, ocean acidification, and pollution all play a role. Not just steelhead are impacted, the entire marine ecosystem is changing. Temperature and ocean acidification is changing the food chain, pollutants are getting into the food chain at every level, and warm water predator species are moving North. With reduced habitat area, alterations in the food web, increased predators, and competition with other highly abundant salmon species the outlook for Northwest steelhead is bleak. It is the science we don’t want to know but it is in front of us.


Edited by WN1A (11/05/14 07:44 PM)

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#912471 - 11/06/14 02:25 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: WN1A]
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 855
Loc: Monroe WA
Whoa WN1A, when you give out homework you don't mess around!

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#912491 - 11/06/14 04:07 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: WN1A]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1092
Originally Posted By: WN1A
Climate change, ocean acidification, and pollution all play a role. Not just steelhead are impacted, the entire marine ecosystem is changing. Temperature and ocean acidification is changing the food chain, pollutants are getting into the food chain at every level, and warm water predator species are moving North. With reduced habitat area, alterations in the food web, increased predators, and competition with other highly abundant salmon species the outlook for Northwest steelhead is bleak. It is the science we don’t want to know but it is in front of us.


I'm not really comfortable picking one tidbit of your great post out to examine but it is something that has been very confusing for me and difficult to sort through both sides of the issue to find what the truth is. I respect Cliff Mass for giving an unbiased scientific based view of what is happening with climate change. This one article on ocean acidification has been a big question mark for me.

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2014/09/epa-takes-on-oysteracidification.html

I would be very interested in your insight, Thanks


Edited by Keta (11/06/14 04:25 PM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#912523 - 11/06/14 06:11 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Keta]
WN1A Offline
Spawner

Registered: 09/17/04
Posts: 594
Loc: Seattle
I am not sure that I can offer much insight. I have seen the Cliff Mass oyster blog. He is using information from the EPA and the Washington Department of Ecology. As I wrote in the first paragraph of my post agencies can always find science that supports their goals. I am in no position to say he is right or wrong about oysters but I can say that by down playing the ocean acidification problem he is ignoring a large body of scientific work. If Breezer thought my first link was heavy duty homework let me add a great deal more with the link below. These are some of the presentations at the recently concluded PICES (North Pacific Marine Science Organization) annual meeting in Yeosu, Korea. Look at session 7- day 2, the last presentation by Nina Bednarsek. She works at PMEL in Seattle. The presentation outlines some of the ocean acidification problems off our coast.

Ocean Science


As Bob Dylan points out in SUBTERRANEAN HOMESICK BLUES, "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows”. Not so easy though with ocean acidification, maybe an atmospheric scientist should leave discussions of ocean acidification to the oceanography experts.

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#912532 - 11/06/14 06:38 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: WN1A]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1092
I found that blog to be an aberration from the usual right on Cliff Mass assessment of the effects of carbon emissions.
Thanks for bringing so much clarity to these complex issues.

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#912534 - 11/06/14 06:47 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Keta]
WN1A Offline
Spawner

Registered: 09/17/04
Posts: 594
Loc: Seattle
Keta,

Your post got me a bit more interested in other reactions to the Cliff Mass blog. A bit of searching turned up this Craig Welch reply to the critique of his story.

SEA CHANGE

I would add that this is all important background info to understanding the topic of this thread.


Edited by WN1A (11/06/14 06:51 PM)

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