Slaying Coho

Coho fishing all through the Straits have been off the hook last few weeks. Only problem is you have to catch 5-10 unclipped before you get a clipped fish.

We caught well over 60 fish last weekend to finally get 10 clipped fish. This weekend was a bit slower with 35 or so fish caught to get 3 clipped . Fish are on the smaller side averaging 4-7 pounds.
Its fun to catch all those fish, but its a bit frustrating watching a badly hooked fish you know is going to die, swim/float away.

I understand releasing the unclipped fish to help the wild stocks, but the math doesn't seem to add up. I figured, out of the 80+ unclipped fish caught, I bet a good 10-25 of them died. Seems to me if you just allowed first 2 fish caught to be retained. More unclipped fish would survive.

In a few weeks it will be moot when unclipped can be retained.

It's a shame you chose to kill so many fish, just to bonk some 4 lb runts


With that said I agree that there should be some adjustment to the rules. I like the idea of catch two and you're done, if one or both are hatchery bonk em. If it's open to harvesting finned fish then bonk your two of either and split.

I've stopped fishing coho in the Straits for that very reason. I remember days at Sekiu in late August or early September with 20+ wild releases and bringing home 2 fish. Just didn't feel right. Now I will fish the unselective openings but that's it. Or, more often, I fish MA9.

Difficult call to make because the fishing is SO good up there at times.

I remember 10 years back or so, asking an enforcement clown why we kill so many silvers, why not keep the 1st two? His response was that the resorts would only have two weeks worth of business, I told him I didn't care if they ALL went out of business if that's the deal. If we had this 1st two fish whether wild or not rule in a few years maybe we would have enough fish to allow wild retention. I could care less about resort owners vrs. fish stocks, but wdfw sucks big time when making decisions concerning fish stocks. We haven't been up there in years. Bob R

What gear are you fishing that causes so much damage to fish you have to release? Change that and the mortality goes way down.

Those who would give up long seasons for a week or two fishery are crazy.

In today's world of ESA listed salmon , US -Canada treaty with hard caps on impacts on stocks of concern (in the Straits coho case it is upper Fraser wild coho) and weak stock management selective fishing is less about limiting impacts on wild stocks and more about using whatever acceptable impacts that are available to access as many other fish as possible.

In the case of the coho fisheries on the north outer coast/Neah Bay and Sekiu the same numbers of wild upper Fraser coho that die in the fisheries will be the same whether the fishery is non-selective (kill unclipped fish) or selective (release unclipped fish). However the difference is the amount of fishing available (season length) and numbers of hatchery fish taken.

In the case of fishing non-selective the likely result would be coho seasons in the western straits/outer coast for the that would be two weeks or so long compared to the existing season that stretches over a couple months. It really comes down to what the angler community prefers as a whole. Today through the North of Falcon salmon season setting process it has been pretty clear that folks (and yes that includes the resorts) prefer the longest opportunities possible. If you don't like that option get involved in the process and make your case why something other than the current structure is better.

Curt

The good side of that is that the natives may be on the rebound.

Interestingly, the Canadians go to a 1 wild fish in their daily bag in their areas 19 and 20 starting September with a 5% impact on their side. We have a 10% impact on our side and have to wait for a couple of weeks in MA 5 to go non-selective and October 1 in MA 6. It would appear, to me at least, that someone on the N side of the line has a different idea about impacts on Thompson River coho or am I missing something.

Fishy,
What are you using? Have you considered other tackle? I am pretty sure you have, as you have voiced your concern here, but I still would like to hear.

Overall, do you think a single Siwash 5/0 or 6/0 causes less damage than a herring rig? I have hootchy rigs set up both ways. Even being able to keep both clipped or unclipped in 9/10 I haven't killed 25

My wife and I used to fish the straits (Neah Bay and Seiku) and had issues with the wild fish to hatchery ratios with damaged fish being released.We started using an item called a hoochie devil, made by scotty and then sold to the e-chip pro-troll folks who discontinued it. The point (no pun intended) is that it uses a single large 4/0 0r 5/0 siwash hook and the setup has a stop to controll where the hoochie is in relation to the hook. We had as many hook-ups and just as many came in as the traditional two hook set-up. A LOT less fish were deeply hooked, that trailing hook that can tear up gills or eyes isn't there, I've seen these single set-ups on commercial trollers as well. I can attest to the fact that single hooks are just as effective and a LOT less damaging to fish that must be released. There is an item being made now called a wiggle hoochie by shasta tackle, they are smaller but with the same lip and hoochie attached. John Keiser (salt patrol) uses them for blackmouth by swapping out the light leader and double hooks (they are made for kokanee) and using a single 2/0 to 4/0.He says they match the smaller bait. The hoochie devils are no longer available, Melanie and I bought out a lot of their remaining stock. The same single hook set-up can be done without this device by puttung a stop on leader above hook to keep the single point further down the hoochie and will kill less wild fish. With a flasher or dodger the hoochie has good action and slays the silvers in the straits while keeping our released wild stock safer. good luck, Bob R

I run my hootchies with a 5/0 Matzuo sickle hook. A lot easier on the fish that need to be released. I use a large swivel (100# test) for the hook, a couple of beads, and a tinsel skirt. The end result is the tentacles sit just ahead of the bend of the hook. I use 50# fluorocarbon and a leader that is 18" to 20" long. The action behind a Q Cove flasher is pretty strong. The fish tend to hit pretty hard. I don't get a lot of "remote" releases off the down rigger.

25 fish maybe a bit of an exaggeration. But if you figure 10-15% of the fish hooked will die later and your catching 80 or more fish in a weekend that 10-15% adds up. That's just one boat, I see 50+ boats trailers parked at the launch.
I don't think its just me hooking that many fish.

I was thinking of switching to a single hook set up, or switching from hootchies to spoons. I have been experimenting with different gear to see what works and it seems it doesn't matter what you use, when they are biting, they will go after anything that looks edible.

The fishing seems to be tapering off lately, but you still have to catch 5-10 fish before you get an unclipped one. Just takes longer to get your 2 keepers.

It sure would be nice though when the ratios are that high they would allow retention of a few of those that are unclipped. You can keep it if you know its mortally wounded rule would be nice , but we all know that would just get abused.

So you recognize that it's wrong to kill a bunch of unclipped Coho in your search for 1 or 2 clipped runts, yet you continue to do it. I don't get it.

Another important point is to learn to release fish without netting them and especially without bringing them in the boat. Using a gaff Sitka style or an ARC dehooker is really kind to the fish. It is rare to kill a fish with herring or hootchies even with a double hook rig in my hands as far as I can tell.

I use almost the same set-up, learned it from a Canadian guide. Funny thing, the little guys will still hit that single big hook, they're just easier to release with a de-hooker (I do the gaff thing too, just get the gaff in the bend of that big hook; twist the wrist, and the fish is free, no net, doesn't touch the boat, or even leave the water).

I've never fished up there and I'm more of a wading tributary guy. That said, the choice of gear has a huge impact on fish mortality. I have a hard time seeing the need for hooks that big, especially multiple hooks, for 4-7 pound fish. The last coho I got was an 8 lber that took a spinner with a #1 hook square in the lip. There's gotta be a way to do it better up there. Perhaps the regs need to be changed to limit damage to the fish? I agree with the OP that it might be better to allow limited wild fish retention.

Are you using a net? If so, Why?


No touch release is the only way to go for these kinds of fisheries .
Coho are particularly sensitive.

Anyone who thinks it's only 10-15% release mortality is kidding themselves. Better multiply that by 5.... gets you a LOT closer to the real number.

I'm not sure what the "real" number is, but I am certain that 10 to 15 percent is a paper mortality that bears little resemblance to reality, and wouldn't stand up to actual measurements no matter what gear is being used.

Fish on...

Todd

didn't smalma post actual studies that showed non-estuary coho with the much lower mortality?

you see loads of floaters and i see none. truth is likely in the middle but gear type has a huge impact. the two hook rig is a coho killer where smaller single hooks do not have the same immediate visual of bleeders or torn up fish.

Unless a one-hook rig is fishing hangback, it's capable of mortally wounding fish just as easily (if not moreso) than the dreaded 2 hook rig you are demonizing.

How a guy rigs his gear makes a HUGE difference.

Understand this.... the fish is trying to engulf/ingest whatever it is you are offering up... lure or bait.

If the hook is attached directly to or buried into the offering, that hook will be ingested right along with the bait/lure of choice. I don't give a flying [Bleeeeep!] if it's a fly, a jig, a spinner, a spoon, a plug, or a baitfish... there is significant risk that the hook could mortally wound that fish.

The best way to avoid a mortal hooking wound is to ensure the hook NEVER enters the fish's mouth. Either don't fish, or rig that hook hangback.

Hey Doc -

How far back from said offering would classify as a hang-back rig?

If everyone would just fish a dry fly, we wouldn't have any problems...

doc,

you are the one stating all saltwater coho fishing has a 50-60% release mortality. i strongly disagree based on my years of fishing neah bay for coho and the data posted by smalma.

i also have lots of experience fishing a two-hook rig as well as single hook flies. it is not the location of the hook holding the fish that is wounding fish in a two hook rig but the other hook swinging around as the fish jumps and twists. it is the hook not initially holding the fish that causes the damage to eyes and gills.

i think you're being a bit dramatic when talking about 50-60% mortality in all saltwater fisheries (i will concur the studies show increased mortality in estuaries vs. open ocean fisheries) and the "significant risk" of wounding fish. i personally do not feel there is a "significant" risk of mortally wounding fish when fishing single hook flies because it happens so rarely that the term tiny risk would be more accurate than significant risk.

you may think i "demonize" the two hook rig. that is not true. i only point out in these threads with people bitching about wounding lots of fish that they might want to look at the gear they fish to reduce the number of wounded fish, especially on smaller coho. going to smaller single hooks will dramatically reduce the number of damaged coho you have to deal with, especially if you either have to or or want to release lots of fish.

My experience suggests that, as long as you're using hooks and fish are biting them, mortal injuries occasionally occur. Yes, even with dry flies. However, I have personally observed fewer such injuries when I use artificials vs. bait. I'll fish bait when the situation calls for it (especially when I plan to harvest the target species), but I do think artificials are the way to go when incidental encounters are most likely. Besides all that, I enjoy the action.

True dat, especially when each fish is netted, held beside boat for photo-ops, and handled/released. Practice what we preach especially in the case when said fish are by-catch species. That goes for at least two participating in this discussion that I personally witnessed on 16 Sept.

Pictures of said photo-ops or it doesn't count newbie

Not sure who you are aiming this at...but if you are in any way insinuating that this happened in eyeFish's boat I can assure you that it did not, as I was in that boat on the 16th.

There were exactly 18 coho landed in that boat...and since there were six of us fishing that day in that boat, there were exactly "zero" coho released, with or without photos...and as soon as the 18th coho was killed all the lines came in and we headed back to port.

If you mean someone else on this thread I'd be curious to hear who as we were out there all day and I didn't notice it happen a single time amongst any boats, much less anyone that I know and is posting on this thread.

Fish on...

Todd

The primary determinant of C&R mortality is hooking location.

While they may look ugly, external hooking wounds are RARELY mortal. That's the whole point in my trying to plant my hook point ANYWHERE but inside a biter's mouth

If the hook is taken in the mouth it's far more likely to cause a mortal hooking wound.... by 2 orders of magnitude.

Now with coho, the second most lethal factor is STRESS. Stress from the struggle, stress from the handling. Salt-caught coho is a very easily stressed species... and horribly so.... the undeniable wimp of the salmonid kingdom. Even WITHOUT a mortal hooking wound, a significant proportion of the fish will still die after release.

We all see the floaters... none of us see the sinkers.

Here's a little more circumstantial evidence of coho frailty.

How often do you catch a coho with visible signs of having been previously troll caught. Virtually ZERO! They don't exist (at least not in numbers statistically disinguishable from ZERO). I've fished over 40 years and have NEVER seen a re-caught coho with a disfigured jaw, maxillary avulsion, or a gaping hole in the side of its face.

WHY?

Because statistically NONE of them survive the initial encounter. You don't ever catch them again because they're all dead.

In contrast, I'll catch a dozen or more kings with said injuries every year... EVERYWHERE I fish for them.

Ask any commercial troller and he'll tell you the same story.

Todd

You did it right behind me while were were releasing a chinook (w/o a net by the way) and you almost ran us over. CanyonMan had to prevent a collision. I do not know of the rest of the day as we were done at noon with our fish and off the river...but as cris carter says "comeon man." I saw at least several chinook (aka by-catch) netted and photographed at the boat, handled, and released.

newby

Chinook are not coho...of course we released all the Chinook we caught, but that's not what this thread is about.

Fish on...

Todd

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT HANDLING/RELEASE MORTALITY-PERIOD. Before the other four people chime in, check my post, I indicated by-catch species (aka chinook). That is not the way to treat fish that are not even available for harvest. Nuff said.

Sorry, I didn't notice your edit.

Fish on...

Todd

The edit was a typo, not a substantive change. The point being, we should all practice what we preach. Those chinook are off limits to retention and should not be handled in that manner. If we want to maintain/enhance sport fisheries, we should clean our house first before throwing stones at the neighbors.

Who's casting stones?

For the record, kings 15# or less (my call) were typically released by grabbing the leader and using a dehooker stick. Larger fish were typically coralled into a knotless soft-mesh C&R bag to shorten the battle and facilitate expeditious hook extraction. Total handling time typically 10 seconds or less, a little longer for the few photo-ops of the day.

Probably a combined 200-plus years of fish handling experience on the boat that day. The kings did just fine thanks.

I do understand your point salvelinus, but you can't compare estuary kings to estuary coho so far as hooking/landing/handling mortality goes...the kings are warriors at that point, and the coho die if you say mean things to them.

Fish on...

Todd

I believe the thread is entitled "Slaying coho...."

I can start a new thread if that would make you feel better?

Cliff notes version of release mortality.

1) If you want it to be ZERO... don't fish.

2) If you choose to fish, regardless of how you fish (bait/lure/fly)... single biggest way to reduce mortality is to keep the hook from ever being taken into the mouth.

3) Once you hook up, fight 'em as hard as the tackle can stand.... translation = quick is good, slow is bad

4) When releasing, no-touch technique is best, but sometimes you gotta touch 'em (net or hands) to get that hook out fast.

5) Watch the airtime (gills exposed to air), translation = short is good, long is bad. This applies to extracting the hook as well as photo-ops

Photo-ops are NOT the end of the world. J F C .... you just intentionally skewered the critter with a potentially lethal sharp pokey piece of metal and caused it to violently struggle for its life for the past 5 minutes. Any potential harm caused by the 10 second photo-op while it revives pales in comparison... like pissin in the ocean

Thats what I thought.

of course this thread had nothing to do with estuary coho and their higher mortality. fish feeding in the strait are not estuary fish in the same way grey's harbor or buoy 10 is.

that is what is driving me crazy. everyone agrees about the higher estuary mortality but some stubbornly insist that mortality matches ocean fish, which just isn't true.

Yes.



This is NOT a slam on you, brother, but doesn't this suggest that the snagging/flossing we all agree is unethical is the most fish-friendly method of sport fishing? The fine line we walk....



Yes, yes, yes.

As eyeFISH has reminded us on several occasions, fishing is a blood sport. Any of us who think we're doing fish any favors by fishing are absolutely wrong. I personally believe the best we can do is to minimize the inevitable harm we ALL do.

One thing we should all take comfort in is that no matter how we fish, as sport fishers, we do immensely less harm to our quarry than commercial fisheries. It was once widely accepted that there was nothing mankind could do to deplete salmon runs. Can we all agree that was as large a pile of steaming feces as has ever passed through human lips?

Want to save salmon? Cut commercial harvest in half. It really is that simple. It's often argued that Pacific NW streams have been degraded to a point at which they aren't capable of supporting higher escapements. How much of that is due to insufficient nutrient content? Where did the nutrients that once supported multiple orders of magnitude more salmon come from?

But oh, yeah... back to the present... stop sport fishers from killing so many salmon. It's the only way to assure their future. Hmmmmm....

My kill is better than your kill. WTF.

The regulation pamphlet states “…all salmon to be released may not be totally removed from the water.” We witnessed numerous other boats releasing chinook w/o netting, handling, and camera ops. One time occurrence, no problem. Multiple fisheries (B10, Willapa, Grays Harbor) over numerous years=pattern of behavior. I don’t care if you have 500 yrs of experience, well maybe 500; how many pictures do you need? We were using braid and 20# leader that was plenty strong to land the coho and release the chinook as soon as we knew it was not a target species via a release stick or the leader popped. I think, in instances when said species are not available for retention, it is irresponsible fish handling and that it borders on illegal. Cliff notes Part II, its much faster and you can pad your numbers even more if you do it in a more responsible manner.

So........pictures?

Sorry, I dont need any more fish pictures and do not carry a camera for that reason.

I meant Dr. E. Fish since he took some.....to illustrate proper handling and release technique.

I'll entertain the pot-stirring, but after this, I'm done with this high-jack.

See ya....

You have NEVER high jacked a thread with pictures of yourself and/ or of your prowess; ever in almost 11,000 posts??????

I still dont believe talking about ethical treatment of non- taget species is a high jack.

Dude who put you on a high horse?

Nice pics Doc.

Carry on

Looks legit to me......fin-saver net, fish still in the water. Quit your crying.