MA 7 closing for blackmouth

Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/26/15 06:12 PM

It's not official yet but the word on the street is that MA7 is over quota and will be closing. Likely Feb 1.

The fishing is too good and that is apparently unacceptable.
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/26/15 10:31 PM

Update:

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/reeltimeno...-than-expected/

I don't understand why it closes thursday and reopens friday. But whatever, it's devastating news.
Posted by: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman

I don't understand why it closes thursday and reopens friday. But whatever, it's devastating news.


ALWAYS follow the money.

Money > Fish
Posted by: GodLovesUgly

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 09:19 AM

This warms me in the cockles of my heart.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 10:32 AM

Mark Yuasa's article referenced the idea of a Puget Sound aggregate methodology tied to the idea that blackmouth follow the forage fish, as extracted:

"Another issue surrounding this has been a push by the state Fish and Wildlife sport fishing advisory board to create the winter seasons into an aggregate type similar to what is used on the coast during summer salmon fisheries."

Of concern is that an aggregate approach not allow a "hot" season in one area of Puget Sound to cause another area to be closed leaving fishermen there and the businesses they support to suffer.

Seems that fisheries management is more about managing people than the fish......
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 11:35 AM

Larry, can you tell me where to get more info about this methodology? Or just explain further? I want to know more about the different types of management.
Posted by: bushbear

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 12:04 PM

Chasin' Baitman

Lots of good info throughout the Piscatorial Pursuits website and various fisheries topics.

Here's a link to a WDFW website that should help you get started:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/fisheries/

There are other links in the WDFW website to look at. Go to their home page and pick a topic.
Posted by: slabhunter

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 02:39 PM

http://t.co/WIRiQQ55Iz

Going to three days a week.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman
Larry, can you tell me where to get more info about this methodology? Or just explain further? I want to know more about the different types of management.


Bushbear has made a great suggestion for you in terms of researching this site and WDFW's website.

As I understand it In a very short version WDFW sets wild fish impact limits by management area even for the blackmouth fishery. Hit the limit and that area closes even though fishing may be gangbusters because the majority of blackmouth have followed the bait to that area and/or simply had better survival than releases elsewhere. That allows other management areas to remain open even if the fishing there is far less successful - but it is still an opportunity to fish.

From the article it appears that there is discussion about an aggregate impact approach allowing the fishery to continue throughout P.S. until the impact is hit. Then the entire fishery would close. That would be great for the fishermen and businesses benefiting from recreational fishing in that area while leaving other areas to suffer. Not sure that is a fair trade off.

For example, would it be fair to the guys who keep their small boats at Pt. Defiance boathouse to see their (lately very pathetic) fishery closed because the entire impact was gobbled up in MA7?

That is the abbreviated version as I understand it.

Edit: It also appears that the Thursday closure was to cut out one day of fishing before getting into the now three day a week schedule. One would have to ask the managers if that one day closure was worth the angst it may have caused.

Posted by: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 04:56 PM

Good to see an actual formal release from WDFW. This is exactly why I avoid posting rumors. I heard 3 different versions of what was "going to happen".

I think the 3-day a week is a good compromise. At least it works for ME. wink

I'd support a change to delay the opener until Jan 1 if that was ever presented as an option. Fish would be bigger and we'd deal with the quota issue a month later. Shutting it down in Jan or Feb sure makes July seem far away, especially with no local steelheading.
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 07:09 PM

OK - thanks for the info guys.

Yeah, the 3-day-a-week opening is a very good compromise. I am actually quite surprised. Hope it's not a "kick the can down the road" solution and they're just gonna close it in a couple weeks (after the roche harbor derby) as the Yuasa article suggested.

Yes, rumors can sometimes be annoying. But they do get the brain juices flowing on a particular topic so that we're not caught unawares. And, what's the internet good for if we can't throw around some unfounded speculation? wink Plus, rumors can be true (or close to it) at a given point in time, even if the ultimate narrative changes. This happens when stories develop rapidly as this one did. And, the rumor also got me in gear to fish, which I've been every day this week and it's been GREAT. So I guess I'm saying I'm a fan of rumors. And this is a fishing discussion board. Rumors are what fishing is all about.

On that very subject...I did hear an industry organization (I think charters) threatened to sue WDFW if they closed MA7. If that's true, I'd find it somewhat distasteful if WDFW agreed to keep it partially open because of the threat of a suit. That'd be twice in a year they caved due to threat of litigation. Even though it works in my favor this time, I still think a regulatory agency should have a spine. Again, speculation.

Larry B -t hanks for your synopsis. I am wondering if anyone knows the answer to this question...what about the fact that they don't clip their kings in Canada? How does WDFW account for that, do they just assume antyhing unclipped is wild? MA7 is probably unique in that it sees alot more unclipped canadian HATCHERY kings than any other marine area.

Having fished for "winter springs" in canada, whenever they catch a clipped king at least 24" (which they catch alot of) they whack it and say, "thanks, America!". They can whack any king 24" or greater, whether it has a fin or not. So basically, we're supplying them with alot of their winter fish while we're not allowed to touch theirs. Something doesn't seem right about that, though I fully admit I may not be aware of all the facts/issues.
Posted by: Sky-Guy

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 09:00 PM

I can confirm as sitting WDFW Puget Sound Salmon Commission member that there were no falsely spread rumors,. The commissioners all conferenced earlier in the week with a decision to close, which was later overruled by the new Director. While I feel we have to trust the Director's judgement, it's concerning that the commission was not consulted in the over-ruling of the jointly made decision.
I do believe that we have consensus amongst the commission to begin managing all marine areas as a single entity, aggregating the impacts and encounters across areas, versus closing a specific area when it happens to reach it's predetermined impact percentage. This management technique allows fishing to continue when all of the fish congregate into a specific area on any given year due to bait fish concentrations, their inherently transitory nature, or other conditions. I expect this to be a major topic at the upcoming NOF.

The issue at hand in my mind is, how does this scheme fly when it hasn't been etched in stone yet during an annual cycle?
Time will tell.

I can appreciate your comments LarryB and will certainly echo them in our next meeting. Good feedback. Keep it coming.



Posted by: Smalma

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 09:55 PM

I believe that the first day on the job for the new director will be February 2.
Posted by: bushbear

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 10:53 PM

Lots of discussions ahead for the PS Sport Fish Advisors and the WDFW staff about how to get the most fishing possible with the least amount of impacts. Will be an interesting North of Falcon process.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 10:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Sky-Guy
I can confirm as sitting WDFW Puget Sound Salmon Commission member that there were no falsely spread rumors,. The commissioners all conferenced earlier in the week with a decision to close, which was later overruled by the new Director. While I feel we have to trust the Director's judgement, it's concerning that the commission was not consulted in the over-ruling of the jointly made decision.
I do believe that we have consensus amongst the commission to begin managing all marine areas as a single entity, aggregating the impacts and encounters across areas, versus closing a specific area when it happens to reach it's predetermined impact percentage. This management technique allows fishing to continue when all of the fish congregate into a specific area on any given year due to bait fish concentrations, their inherently transitory nature, or other conditions. I expect this to be a major topic at the upcoming NOF.

The issue at hand in my mind is, how does this scheme fly when it hasn't been etched in stone yet during an annual cycle?
Time will tell.

I can appreciate your comments LarryB and will certainly echo them in our next meeting. Good feedback. Keep it coming.


Two immediate observations:

1. If the commission to which you belong made a recommendation which was "overruled" without explanation that should be of concern to us all as you opined. This seems to go to one of my concerns about the Advisory Group concept as utilized by WDFW in that recommendations go to the Group's agency liaison and supposedly up the chain rather than there being written minutes/recommendations with originals to the Director and Commission.

2. As to the issue at hand It might be reasonable to establish predetermined impact percentages by MAs and adjust as seasons progress if it so happens that impact levels in some MAs do not occur as anticipated. But as I indicated earlier to have a great season in MA7 result in an early closure in mid and south sound MAs will simply not be acceptable for obvious reasons.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 10:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Smalma
I believe that the first day on the job for the new director will be February 2.


Will he come in the door, take one long look, and head back to ID?
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/27/15 11:22 PM

Sky-Guy - thanks for your comments. We're lucky to have an insider participating on the boards.

When you say the commissioners conferenced, do you mean the main commission or the puget sound salmon commission? If just the latter, do you know if the main commission has a stance on this? And did the new director give any reason for overruling? It's not clear from your post. Apologies if I am misunderstanding. Also, is there an audio transcript from mondays meeting?

Finally, do you have any comment on my question regarding canadian unclipped hatchery chinook?
Posted by: Smalma

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/28/15 06:03 AM

Larry B-
While not a fan of this recent MA7 decision I do recognize that the Director has a very difficult job that at times will require making decisions that may be counter what many would like. Those decisions are often tempered by what I have often referred by political science rather than science. That is the reality of today's world. However if the Director is making those decisions (his job) with all the information; biological assessment from his staff and user input from the appropriate advisory group then I don't consider system broken.

Like many I do have some issues of lack of communication of what was going on (other options being considered) which lead to way too many unnecessary rumors and uncertainty, how the information got out, etc.

Chasin' Baitman -
I believe that the group Sky-guy is referring to would be more correctly called WDFW's PS sport fish advisors. That is a group that has taken on the task of trying to represent the diverse interest of the region's angler community in NOF and other venues. In effect the communication link between we anglers and the agency.

Regarding BC salmon in MA 7. In the last couple weeks my fishing partner and I have discussed MA 7 blackmouth fishery in detail. As part of those discussion he pulled together the recent code wire tag information from MA7 (thanks Eric!). One of the interesting things from that CWT information was how many BC tags were found. In the last two years available (2011-12 and 2012-13) out of the 252 tags recovered from the recreational fishery 50 or 19.8% were from BC hatcheries. I don't what portion of the BC hatchery fish are clipped but clearly there are some. While collectively there are lots of BC in MA 7 the dominate contributor to the Blackmouth fishery continues to the Skagit with 25.8% tags recovered.

Curt
Posted by: Smalma

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/28/15 06:19 AM

Bushbear -
I agree that the NOF will indeed be an interesting event and potentially for the recreational angler as important as any since 2007.

And you are correct the task that folks have to wrestle with how best use the limited allowable impacts on listed fish to produce/maximize desired fishing opportunities. The difficulty of that task is compounded by the fact we all have different priorities on where we want to fish. If we as a group want to maximize the numbers of fish we kill we would use those impacts only in extreme terminal areas (rivers and near-river bays) where the fishing would be limited by only to local stocks. However collectively we have a desire to fish outside of those terminal areas where the fishing will be on complex mixed stocks.

Those mixed stocked fisheries will always be limited by the weakest stock's allowable impacts. Which means that by opting to fish those mixed stock areas the recreational community is in effect agreeing to leave harvest fish on the table. We given up catching maximum numbers of fish harvest for the type of opportunities we enjoy and often the kind of opportunities that have the greatest economic value to the local and State economies. Always a difficult balancing act that will almost assuredly leaving many dis-satisfied or shaking their heads.

With the importance of the next few months in shaping our fisheries I encourage folks to get involved in the North of Falcon (NOF) process. I understand that most folks just can invest that time needed but that should not preclude them from contacting one or more of the PS advisors with their concerns or ideas. The are also a number of clubs/organizations that are options for getting involved.

Curt
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/28/15 08:12 AM

However if the Director is making those decisions (his job) with all the information; biological assessment from his staff and user input from the appropriate advisory group then I don't consider system broken.

Like many I do have some issues of lack of communication of what was going on (other options being considered) which lead to way too many unnecessary rumors and uncertainty, how the information got out, etc.Curt [/quote]

First, I recognize that the position of Director is in flux at the moment so this is hopefully not representative of how such emergent issues will be handled at least in terms of feedback to the advisory group(s) who apparently were provided an opportunity for input.

My concern is that after having been involved as a citizen and club spokesperson in a minimum of three long term issues (PSRRP, new crab policy and dogging the Point No Point project) I have seen in each process incidents whereby grossly inaccurate information pertinent to the decision making was not only introduced but continued to be promulgated after having been pointed out to the liaison. Those incidents have caused me to have concerns about the integrity of some individuals as well as the process. That is, does the current process allow for what is being discussed and recommended by the individual Advisory Groups to be available to upper management/Commission to ensure they are seeing and hearing the recommendations from the Advisory Groups?
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/28/15 06:48 PM

Is it a foregone conclusion that MA7 will close for good after the Roche Harbor derby weekend?
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/28/15 08:21 PM

Clearly, it depends. (Sorry, couldn't help myself)
Posted by: Todd

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/28/15 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman
Is it a foregone conclusion that MA7 will close for good after the Roche Harbor derby weekend?


If it does then you will be treated to a prime example of how "science" is used to make these decisions.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. In this case when I say "science", I mean that in the loosest sense, kind of the "not science" sense.
Posted by: GodLovesUgly

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 01/29/15 02:40 PM

Well I dunno about yall but I'm fishing it tomorrow while I still can....




Fish ON!
Posted by: Todd

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 01:51 PM

This weekend is it...take your Valentine out on Saturday wink

***********

Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
600 Capitol Way North, Olympia, WA 98501-1091
http://wdfw.wa.gov/

February 11, 2015
Contact: Ron Warren, (360) 902-2799

Salmon fishing to close Feb. 15 in San Juan Islands

OLYMPIA - The recreational fishery in Marine Area 7 (San Juan Islands) will close to salmon fishing at the end of the day Feb. 15.

Fishery managers with the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) made the decision after evaluating catch rates for the area, said Ron Warren, policy lead for WDFW's fish program.

"We're thrilled that anglers have done so well fishing in the San Juans over the last several weeks," Warren said. "This step, similar to the previous actions we've taken, is being done to protect wild chinook stocks."

In January, WDFW reduced the catch limit in the San Juan Islands to one salmon per day, down from two, and later limited fishing to a schedule of Friday, Saturday and Sunday each week in an effort keep the fishery open as long as possible.

Anyone still hoping to fish for chinook salmon in nearby waters can head to marine areas 6 (eastern Strait of Juan de Fuca), 8-1 (Deception Pass), 8-2 (Port Susan) and 9 (Admiralty Inlet), which are scheduled to remain open into April. Anglers should check for updates on WDFW's Fishing Hotline (360-902-2500) or the department's website at http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/regulations/ .

**********************

Fish on...

Todd
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 02:03 PM

Welp, it's happening permanently. I guess I should be happy we're getting an extra weekend out of it.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/feb1115a/

As a resident of Bellingham and an avid blackmouth angler, I an truly, truly devastated at the MA7 closure. Arguably, the closure is for artificial, bureaucratic reasons and not because there is any real danger to fish.

A HUGE swath of our accessible saltwater wilderness is now off-limits for 2 1/2 months! Our rivers close in February, Puget Sound and the Strait are distant and/or very exposed to winter weather...this is essentially the death knell of fishing opportunity for those of us up in the San Juans region. And these are the months we need it most!

Pumping lakes full of stocker trout, and saying we can still go out for greenling and flounder are not appealing prospects for the serious angler.

Is not WDFW mandated to provide opportunity? We've been dealt nothing but bad news over the last year. And the San Juans region has been hardest hit: Steelhead smolts going into lakes, the Skagit closed to Steelhead for TWELVE YEARS and now this. And while our opportunity vanishes before our very eyes, the fishing is actually pretty darn good.

Throw us a bone, will ya?
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 03:06 PM

Baitman, you guys got the whole critter and now you want an extra bone? Out of consideration for other readers I won't list the loss/reduction of opportunity throughout the Puget Sound region.

Oh, and blackmouth fishing down south has been an ongoing opportunity with little joy.
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Larry B
Baitman, you guys got the whole critter and now you want an extra bone? Out of consideration for other readers I won't list the loss/reduction of opportunity throughout the Puget Sound region.

Oh, and blackmouth fishing down south has been an ongoing opportunity with little joy.


heh, well it hurts to have this nice, plush rug pulled out from under us wink

If I had my druthers (and I never do), I'd rather have last season's season. Decent - not gangbusters - fishing and we made it all the way to April 30. I'd MUCH rather have fewer fish and more opportunity. Hard to tell the fish to back off tho smile

I know the puget sound region in general has been hit hard. But how could it be worse than losing your river for TWELVE YEARS? That has to take the cake.

After feb 15, we have stocker trout lakes and that's it. That is a criminal loss of opportunity.

Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 04:07 PM

Yes, we are all in a fairly crappy boat taking on water from a myriad of leaks. I actually hope that at some point the agreement with WFC is ruled illegal and overturned. If the proper permits haven't been issued by then maybe WFC will sue NOAA.

One reality is that WDFW should have seen the rapidly approaching rock wall much sooner to put on the brakes and extend the MA 7 season. Maybe next year they will start out with a one fish limit.
Posted by: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 05:07 PM

Baitman, there is so much emotion in what you type. I appreciate the passion but, it may be time to take a breath full of dispensary smoke and appreciate what you have/had rather than what you aren't getting. I just don't understand how you can be "truly, truly devastated" after an unbelievable season. The idea of always having "more, more, more" is partly what got us in this jam. You/We actually got far more than what was originally agreed upon.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it unfair or wrong. Sure, it "sucks" but that is a different thing than someone victimizing or knowingly wronging you.

Wishing us both a few more shiny ones before Sunday's sunset!

-AP
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 05:28 PM

Originally Posted By: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D
Baitman, there is so much emotion in what you type. I appreciate the passion but, it may be time to take a breath full of dispensary smoke and appreciate what you have/had rather than what you aren't getting. I just don't understand how you can be "truly, truly devastated" after an unbelievable season. The idea of always having "more, more, more" is partly what got us in this jam. You/We actually got far more than what was originally agreed upon.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it unfair or wrong. Sure, it "sucks" but that is a different thing than someone victimizing or knowingly wronging you.

Wishing us both a few more shiny ones before Sunday's sunset!

-AP


Incorrect on all counts. You can't say "you got your fish" when at the end of the day, most serious anglers would prefer the scenario I laid out: a more measured season vs. the feast then famine of this season.

This is recreational fishing which is more about opportunity than harvest. Commercials are about harvest. I MOST CERTAINLY never "agreed upon" what we got this year. Sure it was good, but I'd trade it in a second for a full season. I do not mind skunkings as long as I have a chance to go out and try again.

Like alot of guys on here, I view fishing as more of a religion than a pastime. So while you may not feel it, I do in fact reserve the right to be devastated by NO LEGITIMATE FISHING OPTIONS IN OUR REGION FOR THE NEXT TWO AND A HALF MONTHS (an issue that goes beyond saltwater). If that doesn't seem wrong and unfair to you...I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion. Google it.

To add insult to injury, WDFW claims to have a mandate of providing opportunity. Why bother when it's just lip service? All they have done is reduce opportunity.

If the aggregate method mentioned earlier in this thread is a viable method of management, AND it would have retained our opportunity, then the closure can be viewed as artificial and bureaucratic. I realize a government agency can't be expected to change its management system mid-=season, but the reality of the current model is that it is based on 1970s coded wire tag data. The modeling system is fundamentally broken, which means this could have been avoided if WDFW had updated their methodology sooner. Yet another dropped ball.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman
If the aggregate method mentioned earlier in this thread is a viable method of management, AND it would have retained our opportunity, then the closure can be viewed as artificial and bureaucratic. I realize a government agency can't be expected to change its management system mid-=season, but the reality of the current model is that it is based on 1970s coded wire tag data. The modeling system is fundamentally broken, which means this could have been avoided if WDFW had updated their methodology sooner. Yet another dropped ball.


Your suggestion about an aggregate method was addressed by me earlier in this thread. Had that type of management tool been in place this year and had MA 7 been allowed to continue at a 2 fish limit I would speculate that all other areas of Puget Sound would have been closed early.

How would you rationalize such a reallocation of opportunity? I can tell you that the South Sound anglers already perceive that they are taking the short end of the stick on several fronts.
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Larry B

How would you rationalize such a reallocation of opportunity? I can tell you that the South Sound anglers already perceive that they are taking the short end of the stick on several fronts.


How's that? Peninsula rivers, the coast, the Columbia and tribs are within reach for day trips for south sounders. Not to mention the sound itself. Arguably it's one of the better positions to be in the state for year-round fishing opportunity.

As it stands right now, our "day trip" opportunity (from the san juans region) is Everett. 60+ miles to fish areas 8.2 or 9. frown
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/11/15 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman
Originally Posted By: Larry B

How would you rationalize such a reallocation of opportunity? I can tell you that the South Sound anglers already perceive that they are taking the short end of the stick on several fronts.


How's that? Peninsula rivers, the coast, the Columbia and tribs are within reach for day trips for south sounders. Not to mention the sound itself. Arguably it's one of the better positions to be in the state for year-round fishing opportunity.

As it stands right now, our "day trip" opportunity (from the san juans region) is Everett. 60+ miles to fish areas 8.2 or 9. frown


First, this was discussing blackmouth impact allocation rather than a general discussion of fishing opportunities. Let's stick with that issue and the idea that allocation could/should be shifted to areas where the fishing is best so that they can prolong their (outstanding) fishing. Unfortunately, that extension would likely cause the early closer of all blackmouth fishing within Puget Sound. So your rationalization is that we have other opportunities like the rivers? The only river which may have a boat opportunity for displaced saltwater boat anglers is the Columbia. Gee whiz Batman, that's something like 130 miles south. And you've complaining about 60 miles to Everett?

Have you considered a Canadian license? Closer for you to go to Canada than for us to go to the Big C for springers (which aren't in yet), eh. Rivers, salt, bigger limits and longer seasons on spot prawns, crab, should provide great opportunity closer to home. Glad I could help.

In case you haven't figured it out yet I seem to have lost any sympathy......
Posted by: Chasin' Baitman

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/12/15 10:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman
Originally Posted By: Larry B

How would you rationalize such a reallocation of opportunity? I can tell you that the South Sound anglers already perceive that they are taking the short end of the stick on several fronts.


How's that? Peninsula rivers, the coast, the Columbia and tribs are within reach for day trips for south sounders. Not to mention the sound itself. Arguably it's one of the better positions to be in the state for year-round fishing opportunity.

As it stands right now, our "day trip" opportunity (from the san juans region) is Everett. 60+ miles to fish areas 8.2 or 9. frown


First, this was discussing blackmouth impact allocation rather than a general discussion of fishing opportunities. Let's stick with that issue and the idea that allocation could/should be shifted to areas where the fishing is best so that they can prolong their (outstanding) fishing. Unfortunately, that extension would likely cause the early closer of all blackmouth fishing within Puget Sound. So your rationalization is that we have other opportunities like the rivers? The only river which may have a boat opportunity for displaced saltwater boat anglers is the Columbia. Gee whiz Batman, that's something like 130 miles south. And you've complaining about 60 miles to Everett?

Have you considered a Canadian license? Closer for you to go to Canada than for us to go to the Big C for springers (which aren't in yet), eh. Rivers, salt, bigger limits and longer seasons on spot prawns, crab, should provide great opportunity closer to home. Glad I could help.

In case you haven't figured it out yet I seem to have lost any sympathy......



Heh, well I do have a way of alienating potential supporters. I do agree it's hard to sympathize with some guy who's just experienced some of the best salmon fishing ever.

But for me the issue IS opportunity. Perhaps it is another thread. It's a much larger issue that would tie into the fact that WDFW manages by closure. By saying the only other opportunity available is the big C, you're basically assuming that all other closures are merited. The reason I am droning on about opportunity in this thread is because it just so happens blackmouth was our last remaining opportunity.

But back on the topic, I really don't think you can claim that under the aggregate method of management, all marine areas would be closed. How exactly would you know that? I am no management expert, but I think it highly UNlikely that one marine area would use up the quota set for all 7 or 8 open ones.

It seems like this exactly why the aggregate method is being floated by people like Tony Floor. If it was likely to just end up with the same result (or worse - ALL marine areas are closed), I sincerely doubt it would be pushed.

Let's say the method of management didn't change...I'm STILL saying the system is broken. Anybody who's ever even used excel knows a model is only as good as what you put into it. Using 1970s coded wire tag data as the foundation is just plain wrong. How is using *anything* from the 1970s even relevant? I am from the 1970s, and I am no longer relevant wink WDFW is "working" to update the model to use coded wire tag data from the early 2000s, but is still a couple years off. (????)

So we were already hamstrung by bad data before the season even began. My guess (emphasis on guess), is that the model has the inability to realize that the pie might be bigger.

Second, the glacial pace at which data moves through the system in-season is a critical issue. As it turns out, at the time the bag limit changed to 1 we were ALREADY OVER QUOTA. But they didn't know it because it takes weeks to process all the data from the various sampling methods. Talk about bureaucratic inefficiency. Having all the information in a timely manner might have helped prolong the season, because they would have been able to throttle it alot sooner.

It was the 1-2 punch of bad data and inefficient management.

Yes, I know, crocodile tears. Don't feel bad for me! Yes, I DO have a canadian license and even a nexus pass. But I am not a Canadian, I'm a Washingtonian and I care much more about what goes on at home than in another country. I'm what you'd call a CONSTITUENT.

Actually, the people you should feel bad for are the ones who make they livelihoods from sportsfishing. The guides, sure. But even more so the retailers. The good folks at great stores like Holiday Sports and Yeager's are going to feel this, and it goes all the way up the supply chain. Poor management practices have real consequences.

This is part of what House bill 1660 is trying to address:

Quote:

(4) The legislature further finds that Washington will not be able to grow its sports fishing tourism industry, and compete with other popular sports fishing destinations, unless the fish and wildlife commission prioritizes recreational harvest opportunities and establishes predictable and stable recreational fishing seasons that enable both state residents and visitors from around the country and around the globe to make long-term trip planning and tourism spending decisions that lead them to Washington's rural communities.


http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2015-16/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1660.pdf

Sportfishing is about opportunity.

Posted by: Lucky Louie

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/12/15 12:27 PM

"We're thrilled that anglers have done so well fishing in the San Juans over the last several weeks," Ron Warren said.

That would be an excellent example of an oxymoron.

Emphasis on moron.
Posted by: Larry B

Re: MA 7 closing for blackmouth - 02/12/15 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman
Originally Posted By: Larry B

How would you rationalize such a reallocation of opportunity? I can tell you that the South Sound anglers already perceive that they are taking the short end of the stick on several fronts.


How's that? Peninsula rivers, the coast, the Columbia and tribs are within reach for day trips for south sounders. Not to mention the sound itself. Arguably it's one of the better positions to be in the state for year-round fishing opportunity.

As it stands right now, our "day trip" opportunity (from the san juans region) is Everett. 60+ miles to fish areas 8.2 or 9. frown


First, this was discussing blackmouth impact allocation rather than a general discussion of fishing opportunities. Let's stick with that issue and the idea that allocation could/should be shifted to areas where the fishing is best so that they can prolong their (outstanding) fishing. Unfortunately, that extension would likely cause the early closer of all blackmouth fishing within Puget Sound. So your rationalization is that we have other opportunities like the rivers? The only river which may have a boat opportunity for displaced saltwater boat anglers is the Columbia. Gee whiz Batman, that's something like 130 miles south. And you've complaining about 60 miles to Everett?

Have you considered a Canadian license? Closer for you to go to Canada than for us to go to the Big C for springers (which aren't in yet), eh. Rivers, salt, bigger limits and longer seasons on spot prawns, crab, should provide great opportunity closer to home. Glad I could help.

In case you haven't figured it out yet I seem to have lost any sympathy......



Heh, well I do have a way of alienating potential supporters. I do agree it's hard to sympathize with some guy who's just experienced some of the best salmon fishing ever.

But for me the issue IS opportunity. Perhaps it is another thread. It's a much larger issue that would tie into the fact that WDFW manages by closure. By saying the only other opportunity available is the big C, you're basically assuming that all other closures are merited. The reason I am droning on about opportunity in this thread is because it just so happens blackmouth was our last remaining opportunity.

But back on the topic, I really don't think you can claim that under the aggregate method of management, all marine areas would be closed. How exactly would you know that? I am no management expert, but I think it highly UNlikely that one marine area would use up the quota set for all 7 or 8 open ones.

It seems like this exactly why the aggregate method is being floated by people like Tony Floor. If it was likely to just end up with the same result (or worse - ALL marine areas are closed), I sincerely doubt it would be pushed.

Let's say the method of management didn't change...I'm STILL saying the system is broken. Anybody who's ever even used excel knows a model is only as good as what you put into it. Using 1970s coded wire tag data as the foundation is just plain wrong. How is using *anything* from the 1970s even relevant? I am from the 1970s, and I am no longer relevant wink WDFW is "working" to update the model to use coded wire tag data from the early 2000s, but is still a couple years off. (????)

So we were already hamstrung by bad data before the season even began. My guess (emphasis on guess), is that the model has the inability to realize that the pie might be bigger.

Second, the glacial pace at which data moves through the system in-season is a critical issue. As it turns out, at the time the bag limit changed to 1 we were ALREADY OVER QUOTA. But they didn't know it because it takes weeks to process all the data from the various sampling methods. Talk about bureaucratic inefficiency. Having all the information in a timely manner might have helped prolong the season, because they would have been able to throttle it alot sooner.

It was the 1-2 punch of bad data and inefficient management.

Yes, I know, crocodile tears. Don't feel bad for me! Yes, I DO have a canadian license and even a nexus pass. But I am not a Canadian, I'm a Washingtonian and I care much more about what goes on at home than in another country. I'm what you'd call a CONSTITUENT.

Actually, the people you should feel bad for are the ones who make they livelihoods from sportsfishing. The guides, sure. But even more so the retailers. The good folks at great stores like Holiday Sports and Yeager's are going to feel this, and it goes all the way up the supply chain. Poor management practices have real consequences.

This is part of what House bill 1660 is trying to address:

Quote:

(4) The legislature further finds that Washington will not be able to grow its sports fishing tourism industry, and compete with other popular sports fishing destinations, unless the fish and wildlife commission prioritizes recreational harvest opportunities and establishes predictable and stable recreational fishing seasons that enable both state residents and visitors from around the country and around the globe to make long-term trip planning and tourism spending decisions that lead them to Washington's rural communities.


http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2015-16/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1660.pdf

Sportfishing is about opportunity.



What is Excel?

I did not unequivocally state that imposing an aggregate approach would certainly cause an early closure throughout Puget Sound. I did strongly suggest that it could/might have that effect.

In addition to fish caught in MA7 one would also need to factor into the aggregate impact the fish caught in the other management areas so it wouldn't be JUST the MA7 fish. But, again, allowing a two fish limit to run unabated especially when success has been as good as it was (glad you were able to enjoy it) in any MA(s) could reasonably cause a P.S. wide closure earlier than would occur under the current system.

While you have questioned the modeling (and maybe there is an issue there) I suggest that a more reasonable short term approach might be to determine how the Department could structure the fishery to prevent the early closure.