Are they serious?!?! flag@whitehouse.gov

I know this has been well covered all over talk radio. Just curious why nobody here is talking about it.

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

What do they plan to do with this information?

How come you left wingers haven't spoken out about this? You would have been screaming if the previous administration had tried something like this!

WTF?


Here is the link to official White House blog it is posted on

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

Hyperbole and regurgitating the Prezs' promises are equally as threatening to an administration without a phugging clue.

But hey at least there ain't no tax cheats or criminals in this "white" house.

Quite the contrary. I would have loudly applauded any attempt by the previous administration to keep the lieing RWWJs in check.

Vic, honestly, you aren't helping your cause. Same to be said of Hank and RvW (who I'm guessing has been drinking due to his 3 racist comments in the last few minutes.) for chiming in. It really does make you guys look even crazier. Cheers.

I hope you really don't have a problem with an effort to cut out all the bullchit made up crap out there so we can at least know what it is we're looking at...kind of like JG's "the Gubmint now owns your computer" email cut and paste...it's made up stuff that has no place in the debate.

Fish on...

Todd

I'm still waiting for Obama to shut of the internet, take away the guns, and install Sharia Law.

Yeah,,, I didn't really expect you guys to be honest.

I have yet to read or hear anyone say that Obama's plan was to euthanize the elderly in print or on the radio. I did read the transcript of Obama's ABC special where he said that there would be cases where the elderly wouldn't be able to get surgeries to correct problems, but that they could have plenty of pain pills.

Vic, rather than just copy/paste stuff that other RWWJ's send you, how about going to the link you posted and reading it? It debunks the very made up scare tactic bullchit that you are talking about...

'Course, that's not as much fun as reading those chain emails and getting all ascairt, but at least you'll know something when you're done.

Fish on...

Todd

Huh!!! Funny thing. I did a little google search trying to find where a republican claimed that Obama said he wanted to Euthanize the old. Couldn't find any. I did find plenty of liberal bloggers and liberal talking heads claiming it had been said. Wonder who is really spreading the bullschit.

Actually Todd, I have spent a fair bit of time reading the president's speech about helath care reform and spent about an hour reading the actual bill, particularly the part about the end of life counciling.

Instead of trusting the salesperson, I think I choose to go to the source.

He also had this to say:

And all we're suggesting -- and we're not going to solve every difficult problem in terms of end-of-life care; a lot of that is going to have to be we as a culture and as a society starting to make better decisions within our own families and for ourselves. But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that's not making anybody's mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know, and your mom know, that you know what, maybe this isn't going to help, maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller.

and representative Foxx was referring to rationing which is what Obama is implying should happen here.

KK

I don't think I would want to be on the government plan. But I don't think I would have a say as long as I work for some one else. Why do you ask

Like I said my employer makes that choice not me. So I might wind up on it any way. And if I decide to change jobs in the middle of the year I will be REQUIRED to go on it until the start of the next calendar year. So anyone who changes jobs will likely wind up on it. Beyond that, Barny Frank said the other day that the Obama plan was the precursor to a single payer system.

Funny thing KK, my mom works for a company that administers a current form of government health insurance. In fact she has been in the health insurance industry for a long time. After talking with her, who I trust a whole lot more than any politician or even you, sounds like the games and BS are worse where she is at now. But I am not gonna drag mom's name or company, or program that they administer into this so I guess you can rip me, and attack moms credibility now if you want.

Well that is his exact quote. Here is the link if you want it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8495975

Like I said mom has been in the industry for along time. I have heard plenty of stories, so I have no love for insurance companies. I just don't believe that the government can administer anything more efficiently or effectively than the private sector.

If the gubmint option isn't able to compete with the private sector because the private sector is so much more efficient, then what are you afraid of? No one will go with the public option, and no one will be forced to...not even you if you change jobs.

The idea that an industry who makes its billions by accepting premiums then denying coverage is better for the consumer is a pretty long stretch...that's why they're spending a million dollars per day to put out propaganda and blatant lies to scare people.

From the looks of this thread, it's money well spent on some folks.

Fish on...

Todd

Well Todd you are supposed to be an attorney. What does this say?

SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.

(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ‘grandfathered health insurance coverage’ means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT
(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.



I don't know, but it sounds like it could be interpreted to mean if you aren't already grandfathered in on a private plan you are on the gov's plan.


Come on Todd, surely you must see that private industry can't win when one of the players they are competing against is making the rules.

Vic, if you are laid off from your job now where do you go for health coverage....yo momma?

Your options today:

Quit your job = good luck finding insurance. If you do it will be big bucks and not cover pre-existing conditions.
Get laid off = COBRA = (no income and a $500 a month bill) or become destitute and go on....GOVERNMENT INSURANCE.

I have had a recent experience with th VA hospital, some departments are extraordinarily officiant, radiology comes to mind. I'm not at all afraid of the government getting involved in healthcare. The care givers there blow away many of the staff I have seen at other hospitals. One thing though. they have a posting and you see it all over the place. Non cancelled, missed appointments cost th VA $1 million, this would be a s problem if a similar program was expanded just a thought.

Didn't you guys read the clause from the bill I posted? If I am reading it correctly, it isn't an option at all. It is designed to put private companies out of business over time. Doesn't that bother anyone?

Ain't it amazin' how the left leaners want guv. in all our lives? The fact is, no one gets turned away for medical care. It's available and free or damn cheap. Oregon has their own medical plan for those less fortunate. A lot of them refuse to pay the $10 bucks a month to get it and would rather go the emergency room route.

A neighbor who had no insurance recently checked himself in to the hospital had his gall bladder removed and left the next day. he paid the bill with his own money. That was his choice. We have insurance that we pay for out of our retirement. My wife had two knee replacements, I had cancer surgery and radiation and we paid less than $1000 co pay.

Medicare does nothing. They rely on and turn the money over to providers to offer you health care under your supplemental insurance. And the providers do a damn good job as far as we are concerned.

Anyone can go online in Oregon, apply for an insurance card, free, and get their meds at the same rate we get them for with paid insurance.

So please tell me why the feds need to inject their faces into our private lives?

I agree that every person should have a living will. Both of my parents had a do not rescucitate provison that was honored in both their cases. But that does not mean the government should dictate the terms. I didn't get my info from Hannity. It came from Daschle who very plainly stated that old people were going to have to accept the fact that end of life care may not be available under the plan.

Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

Thanks Barry and Tom, I'd like to be able to make that decision without your help.

Please tell me why this is good for us? Don't you just love the one on Page 50?

Oh [censored]! I just realized now someone is going to turn me in to the White House!



Subject: A few highlights from the first 500 pages of the Healthcare bill in congress

Contact your Representatives and let them know how you feel about this. We, as a country, cannot afford another 1000 page bill to go through congress without being read. Another 500 pages to go.

. Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
. Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
. Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
. Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
. Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
. Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Health card.
. Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
. Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
. Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
. Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
. Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
. Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
. Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
. Page 124: No company can sue the government for pr ice-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
. Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
. Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
. Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
. Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
. Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
. Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
. Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
. Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
. Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
. Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
. Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
. Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
. Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
. Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
. Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
. Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
. Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
. Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
. Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
. Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
. Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
. Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
. Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
. Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
. Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
. Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
. Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
. Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
. Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
. Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
. Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
. Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
. Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
. Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

A quick peek at that list shows several inaccuracies without even having to go to the page and read it...don't trust whomever put that list together.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. Haven't yet read the stuff about "grandfathered plans"...I will when I get a chance.

And what might those inaccuracies be? Sounds to me like the whole dang plan is subject to inaccuracies. Even the authors don't know what it says. of course I'm not an attorney

The list above looks to be a biased opinion, it doesn't look to be factual as much as speculation.

The government requires private sector insurance and providers to conform to regulations already, to ensue that this concept is new and designed to put the private sector out of business is as ridiculous as saying they are going to take our guns away and we are going to be waiting in line for bread and TP.

Keeping the private sector from using the "It's our way or stand in line at county" as they have in the past is the main concern here and many private insurance companies are doing all they can to make people think the government is coming to take away their health care and deny care to the elderly with no options.


The SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE. posted above looks to say that if you have insurance coverage that does not comply with the new regulations, you can keep it but new members cant be added to the grandfathered plan after the fact.

You are not forced into government coverage, you have every right to go pick any insurance you want, this is to protect plans that people currently have that they do not want to give up as a result of new regs.

No one is forcing you to government health care, insurance companies are just trying to scare people into keeping the current collect premiums / deny claims situation we have been in for years, hell wouldn't you if it meant keeping a 6-7 figure salary?

It always cracks me up when someone who has been sucking off the government teat her whole life, including government run health care, has a problem with the rest of us taxpayers wanting it...especially when the rest of us actually are taxpayers, not just married to one.

Fish on...

Todd

"Ain't it amazin' how the left leaners want guv. in all our lives? The fact is, no one gets turned away for medical care. It's available and free or damn cheap. Oregon has their own medical plan for those less fortunate. A lot of them refuse to pay the $10 bucks a month to get it and would rather go the emergency room route. "

And who ends up paying? You the government. Or is Oregon printing money these days? If so then it's the rest of us who are supplying your state welfare.

"We have insurance that we pay for out of our retirement. "

Alot of people lose their insurance when they retire because most corps would rather you go on the govt teet, or nothing....they don't care.
Also, alot of people who thought they had corp healthcare through retirement have had the rug yanked out from under them? You better hope that doesn't happen to you because, like most people, I bet you don't have it gauranteed for life in writing.

It's like an AA program for some. The first step is admitting there's a problem.

Both Obama and Barney Franks have said that the way to a single payer system would have to incremental as the public would choke on it if forced on the public all at once. I have excellent health care that is paid for with monies negociated out of wages. I'm not interested in a single payer system. You can't add 47 million people to the current overall healthcare load and not increase wait times.

That's assuming those 47 million people don't get medical services now. I say they do and we pay for it.

"We" don't pay anything, Marsha...your husband does, and has. You've been living off of him, and he gets his from the gubmint...and you get exactly what you think others ought not get, which is government run healthcare.

I pay more for your healthcare than you ever have, every day...and I don't have health care, because I can't afford it.

I know that sounds fair to you, but I'd expect as much from someone who gets theirs for free...and somehow thinks they've "earned" it.

Fish on...

Todd

There's a lot of federal bureacracy in VA and military healthcare systems; more than 1000 pages, I'll bet.

Who doesn't think it's a good idea to give the best care the nation can offer for soldiers and veterans?

Flavored enemas? YAY!!!

Funny that someone who hasn't worked a day in her life is commenting on someone who has two jobs...typical.

Unlike you, I actually pay taxes, lots of 'em...both federal and state. No one buys me cars or pays for my food and clothing and housing, I pay for it all myself, with my own money that I earn...myself.

It takes a real piece of work to have sponged her entire life...off the government [censored], at that...to find superiority in it.

Fish on...

Todd

It's the annual summer Aunty vs Todd Festival!!! are you saying Todd is a worm because he sells paint? Now, break, back to your corners, then come out swingin' at the bell

Wait a minute... So are you saying you do pay to get your medical care or you don't? If you do, then Todd will as well, as he already pays for yours and mine. So if every American pays into the system--like you're alleging you do--then why can't they have medical care, too? Even the ones whose husbands go out and earn their right to medical care while they sit on their ass all day stuffing groceries down their gullet until they get so fat they develop Type II diabetes and suck up more than their share of tax payer provided health care...

Todd you choose not to pay for health care, if you reprioritized your expenditures from fishing to healthcare you could afford some kind of policy.

I've always been of the mind that the spouses and dependents of our soldiers, sailors and airmen have made countless sacrifices for the support of their spouse and this country and as such, as a bare minimum, deserve health care .

Owww, now I'm ascairt. A Birther goin' on the attack.

Marsha, if you think anyone is afraid of your illogical retorts, name calling, or tough guy internet persona, then you are...again...greatly mistaken.

Fish on...

Todd

She doesn't realize that the GOP tactic of "shout them down" only works in person.

It doesn't even work then...when all you bring to the table is your big mouth, it barely works with folks who agree with you.

Fish on...

Todd

I pay Fed income taxes in four different scenarios, and nine states, to boot...and I guarantee I pay more in taxes this week than you have in the past ten years...and not only do my taxes pay for your health care, the 10% excise tax I pay on everything fishing related pays for federal programs to promote fish and fisheries.

Sitting on your ass all day behind a computer does not give you much of a leg to stand on when you are talking about paying taxes and working.

Fish on...

Todd

I suppose if I were in violation it would be relevent, but since I'm not, you're just bloviating.......................................... again.

I don't know why, but I do feel the need to chime in here. I can join Todd in saying I am now uninsured. After years of paying over $2,000 a month for horrible health care, I hit a slow spot in my job and couldn't keep it up. I wanted to swith to a high deductable, but guess what. No one will cover my son or wife under that type of policy. Its either the group policy of just under $2,000 a month or nothing. The joke was when they told me they wouldn't cover my wife because she never had surgery for her endimeitriosis. Same company that kept her from getting the same surgery for the last 3 years we had the policy.
I thought about putting her back on until after the surgery, but realized they would fight me so long I might as well just pay cash for it since it probably will be less than the premiums.
Like Todd probably can, I can pay for most of my health care needs. What is scary is if something real bad happens. That means I will probably be forced into bankruptcy. If the government really wanted to help the uninsured public, they would simply impliment a high end casulty policy for all americans, based off of your yearly income. For those making little or no money, they would pay a small copay or cap and be covered for the rest. For those of us making a little more, we may be faced with paying 10% of our annual income. That means a family making $20,000 is responsible for the first $2,000 of their care each year, and so on. We all get to chose our primary doctors. We all would shop around to get the best price. Seems to me it is more reasonable then telling people to just pay up to the breaking point and then making them go bankrupt.

Now exactly WHO didn't see this coming?

Bingo . Very well said RVW.

And thank you Marsha for holding the fort down for your family, so he could concentrate on serving our Country.

4 Salt, Todd, KK, and GoHarley, Thank you & your spouse's for helping to keep this country safe if you served in the Armed Forces.

Mf

Ding, ding, ding!! There it is folks, the "poor ol' pitiful me, I'm the victim" card. So predictable. So pathetically predictable. But speaking of waste, I'd consider you a waste of human flesh and an oxygen thief as well.

For the claims that public health care for those who need it already exists, it does... have you ever tried it? Maybe its great in OR, it isnt most places and it is not only limited but it is also reliant on availability... I know, no sympathy right? Well as long as it isn't my kids or grand kids...

Is giving money to claim denying / policy dropping insurance companies really better? If so, are you a CEO of an insurance company? If not are you beer bonging GOP Kool Aide?

To champion the system that has been raping Americans for years on one hand and say that the liberals wanting a baseline government health care system (that actually works and allows you to still throw as much premium money toward any CEO's salary you wish) just want to spend "MY HARD EARNED TAX DOLLARS" and implement more government is pretty limp if you ask me. BTW, they are my tax dollars too...

I don't want more government, I don't want more taxes, but just like I want good schools I want good health care if for nothing more than some sars ridden slacker that has no insurance and cant take the day off to go to county not hacking all over my Big Mac.

A single-payer system can and does work if it's administered correctly.

I'm not sure our government can administer it correctly.

Too many party first/country second types in elected office.

But there's no question that the system is broken, and it WILL be torn down and rebuilt eventually.

We already have socialized medicine. If you're uninsured and get hauled to the ER, you'll be treated, and the hospital will make up for your lack of coverage by running 32 diagnostic tests on the next insured guy that comes through the doors.

The major problem with the socialized medicine we now have is that health care is being delivered to the uninsured and underinsured via the ER, which is easily the most expensive way to deliver health care. And people go to the ER for sh!t like a simple case of the flu, or a kid with a fever because they have no other access to healthcare. And that's the kind of stuff that's driving the premiums of those that ARE insured through the roof. We're approaching having health care exepnditures totalling 20% of our GDP.

Check this:

National Health Care Spending
In 2008, health care spending in the United States reached $2.4 trillion, and was projected to reach $3.1 trillion in 2012.1 Health care spending is projected to reach $4.3 trillion by 2016.

Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense.

In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2017.

Although nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.

Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."
..............................................................

Clearly, it's a broken system. It needs to be fixed, and it could be fixed if people would quit acting like f'n kids about it, and discuss how to go about getting it done. There are single-payer systems that work. Click the link and you can read about systems being used in 5 different countries, and how it's turned out for them.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/

Either that or we could just keep flinging poop. Let me know which way you want to go with it.

Oh sure, Dan, just lower the percentage of GDP going to health care and end up like......... FRANCE!!! You f'n socialist.

The usual progression...

1. A topic comes up.
2. It stays civil for a bit.
3. Marsha rants a little.
4. Marsha rants a lot.
5. Marsha rants like a fuckin lunatic.
6. Marsha calls everyone names.
7. Marsha talks about how hard it is to sit on her ass all day on a computer.
8. Marsha belittles people with actual jobs who don't sit on their asses all day on the computer.
9. Marsha whines that everyone is so mean to poor ol' her, sitting on her ass behind a computer all day.
10. Marsha takes a sabbatical to get away from all the meanies.

We're on numbers 8 and 9 right now...does that mean you'll sulk off with your ass between your legs again for a few months?

You won't be missed, just like you weren't last time.

Back to the topic at hand...

It doesn't make sense for me to buy insurance right now...anything I can even remotely afford gives me virtually nothing, with a very high deductible. My only option now is to pay out of pocket for small things, and if something big comes up I'll have it done and someone else will pay for it, or not. I really won't care.

All the while, though, I'll be paying yours, Marsha...enjoy.

Fish on...

Todd

Not true .

Mf

You missed her? Bummer.

Fish on...

Todd

What is really screwed, IMO, is that I don't dislike either Aunty or Todd, in fact I respect both, and I wish you two would just knock it off. You both are good for the fish, and that's more than I can say for the present fish managers (both sides).......and as far as I'm concerned the rest of this crap isn't worth it. Just my opinion, and that's worth exactly what you paid for it. And yes, you both can suck at times.

In before the lock.....Oh wait, this ain't the humpy thread's.....

Double standards....

Mf

To be so full of self-loathing due to having absolutely no life whatsoever and full of hate and anger for everything else in the world must be a very heavy burden, Marsha...I wouldn't wish it on anyone, even you, but you made your bed, so now I guess you get to lie in it.

I'd pity you, but it would just make you more angry...if possible.

Fish on...

Todd

It does, however, provide an excellent context to be a faux-centrist...a position you seem to relish in. I'm glad you find happiness in something, no matter how retarded it is. We all need to be happy about something.

Fish on...

Todd

it is quite comical that 2 humpy threads got locked in recent days. how is it not a single mod has stepped up to slam this shut?

PP is going down the tubes.

It's the Dark Side.

It's not just a clever name.

The Dark Side is much less heavily moderated...

Fish on...

Todd

They sleep on pillows stuffed with $100 bills, that's how they sleep at night...and comforters filled with unpaid invoices and denied claims.

Fish on...

Todd

I can't believe what I'm reading here. I don't know Aunty M but I can say this. If she is the spouse of a Vet, more power to her. I served 8 years in the 60s. The standing joke was, "If the military wanted you to have a wife they would have issued one." The truth was most carreer military that had wives, had a life. They didn't need to find it in the bottle or downtown. Wives are as important to the military as any support troops. To even insuinuate sarcastically or seriously that they are not entitled to their spouses pension and benefits smacks of everything I hate about liberals.

The chicken chit, rock tossing, foul mouthed protesters of the 60 s and 70s deserved every broken tooth and lip they got and I'm proud to say I
even got to break a few myself. I have no quarrel with the protester who stands his ground and fires rhetoric. The ones who tossed balloons full of urine, bags of feces and sailed sharpened coffe can lids into the police ranks are the ones who I despise. Yup and guess what! They harrassed military families too. Encouraged by yuppie professors who could not get a job in the real world and spewed hatred in the classes, the liberals snorted it thru their noses like pigs at a slop trough.

If anything Vets and their families do not get enough benefits. One of the strongest selling points of a military carreer was the knowledge your spouse and kids would be taken care of. Try going off to a remote assignment during wartime and leaving your wife and kids at home!


I had to "sell" enlistments that last year of my tour. We promised the enlistees they would always have at the minimum, health care at VA facilities even if they were not carreer. Anyone want to guess who put a stop to that? I was recently told by the VA that I made too much money to get VA benefits. So if I had been a deadbeat druggie and made no effort to get a job I would qualify!

My wife will receive 90% of my pension upon my demise. She earned it. I made sure of that option when I retired.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




























































?????

JHook, thanks for your service, and anyone who ever berates a vet in any way for his service deserves whatever end of a boot that vet gives him, wherever he plants it.

That, however, is not what this thread is about.

Fish on...

Todd

I agree, so why the backhanded slams on Aunty M?

Maybe 'cause secretly, Todd likes Marsha, and this is the only way he knows to try to catch her eye. We've all seen the kid in the schoolyard
picking on a girl 'cause he likes her and doesn't know any other way
to get her attention.. Watch out Auntie, he wants to sniff your panties!

She made her bed, now lies in it.

Women got nothing to do with it.

Because she's a big mouthed knowitall who pitches out insults and names like jellybeans, and then whines like a little girl if she gets some back, denying that it ever happened that way...funny thing is, I think she actually believes it, which makes her a bit deranged.

She not only has similar health coverage to what the public option would be, but she doesn't even have to go to work or pay her own taxes to get it...yet thinks that no one else should have that option.

It's another version of her usual hypocrisy, and it's worth pointing out whenever she interjects her ignorance into yet another thread, turning the thread to crap.

I love women, and I don't care what their political beliefs are...I'd dislike Marsha and her ridiculous prejudices, attitudes, and "centrist" beliefs whether she were a man, a woman, or one of KK's goats...that's just another one of her "victim" cards she likes to play.

Fish on...

Todd

Yeah...


BUT:










(With 11K posts, I doubt ANYONE opened their mouth before her.)

Elitism and class warfare.

True That!!!! Truly sad.....

Reminds of school yard bullys thinking they have a victim.

And as soon as you ascertain the individual differing from your point of view is a "liberal idiot", the course of the debate turns to personal attacks and name calling.

Agree, freespool. I reviewed the thread and that appears to be the start of it.

Classic. Discussing personal attacks WITH personal attacks.

I thought this was a thread about health care not throwing partisan stones.

If you are a functioning able minded adult you shouldn't be wrapping everything up in one party or another you should be looking at things objectively and not jumping on bandwagons. Much of what I hear sounds like regurgitated am radio.

There are no ratings wars on a message board, just attempts for some enlightenment.

Leave the blind faith partisan politics to Rush, that's what he gets paid for.

This is AM on credibility:

Welcome aboard, Victim #2...either moderate, or shut up. You can't do both, not with any integrity. Either participate in the discussion, or leave it alone.

I like it when Marsha posts...she just proves the opposite of whatever she's trying to do the more she opens her big trap. It seems to be the track record for all faux-centrists.

Fish on...

Todd

I'd like a large pepperoni, olives on half pineapple on half original crust, two salads, one with ranch, one with bleu cheese, and a two liter diet coke for pick up.

Try comparing the post office to UPS or Fed Ex. Who is losing money?

I think some former Clinton appointees from Fannie and Freddie are looking for work. Theyre already rich. Im sure they will work for free.

Libs will love socialize medicine, until someone like Mr. Brown? Who ran the dept in charge of Katrina. Or will democrats use health care to beat the public over the head every election. Does anyone in government make less than 20 dollars and hour?

That's a fantastically irrelevant post...not that it's out of character by any means, in fact, it's fantastically in character...

Fish on...

Todd

You are absolutely correct. I know a homeless guy, who lives in his truck and depends on a friend who lives and works on the same property. His recent hospital visits were at Valley General, compliments of taxpayers.

He doesnt have a job. Therefore, no employer can be taxed to pay his health benefits.
The only money he has, he spends on dope. The bottom line is, people like me, who dont have health insurance will spend more on insurance, than we do on health costs. It wont always be like that, but they will eventually find a way to wein me from my dependency on food and air.

if 47 miilion people didnt have auto insurance, would we be having that discussion? You would think that more than 47 million people die from starvation. We dont have social food care. Didnt they give that up in the Soviet Union?

If this is all about compassion, just let Obama tell us how much his govt health care coverage is going to cost the rest of us. From the program I saw on cnbc, the roundtable discussion, Doctor Frist, said the plan is worth 16-17,000 dollars per year. Sorry, but I cant pay more for health care than I do for a mortgage. One of those people said, americans will have to get use to spending less than 50% of their income on housing and transportation.

There are approximately 57-59 requirements in health insurance in washington state. Many of those requirements dont affect a single male, non smoker. That along with other mandates have reduced the level of competition in health insurance. Thats what it is. Its not health care. I pay cash for health care. But thats not good enough. They want access to my bank account. I dont want to pay for pregnancy care and viagra.
Just wait until the psychologists get the recognition on the government health care plan. Youll need 12 paid days of work to go see the shrink. The end result, will be less people in medicine and virtually no independent search for new medicine and other technology for early diagnosis. Rationing will become them vs us. 200,000 dollars for a premature baby or 200,000 for a heart transplant for a senior. And of course middle america will be forgotten, but the parents and future classmates at Sidwell Friends, will get the medical care they want.

Imagine having David Seuter decide your home should be demolished for the benefit of the city tax revenue. oh, that happened. I cant wait for the next Judge to decide who lives and who dies.

I didnt see any restrictions on members of the bar association.

Do you have anything to add or rebutt that doesn't require or start off with a personal insult? I could go there too, but your life before tackle isnt part of the debate.

I absolutely believe that socialized medicine WILL break the average worker's back. The little money most of us are able to now spend on enjoyment will be gone into the black abyss supporting the indigent. I'm baffled that anyone could think otherwise. Government can't run any damn thing efficiently, are you kidding me? Medical bills are ridiculously high now....no doubt about it....but some fools think that will DECREASE with government intervention!!!??? What?

I have come to the conclusion that the new accepted concept of "responsibility" is thoroughly investing every avenue available to get someone else to pay for one's choices/decisions. And coupled with that is the attitude of regarding one who chooses to live within their means and do without if they can't afford it as a chump. I've worked all my life and frankly I'm tired of supporting more and more leeches who choose to not make difficult choices. "Easy" has nothing to do with functioning as an adult, and I've already raised my children.....and no, I'm not interested in raising you and yours.

Insurance companies are not the villian, although the administration uses them as the villian. insurance companies write lots of policies for business, life, car, boat, flooding, earthquake. Yet we are complaining about insurance companies, for health insurance. If you want to know the true cost of medical insurance, you have to go back to every single expense, paid by everyone in the medical community.

None of those people work for free. Medical books can be over a hundred dollars for one book. Malpractice insurance is high due to excessive awards by a jury. Of course doctors have been ridiculed for high income. But would the same folks ridicule actors and pro-ball players who make 10 or 20 million per year. If people want to restrict what CEO and doctors make, dont forget about the very rich law firms.

The government will hire the same people from the now defunct health insurance industry and pay them just as much. You wont save a dime in the end.

If you want the best technology, you have to pay the price. Thru real competition, which we dont have, prices will come down, but only so far.... The rest is up to us. Drinking, drugs, overeating, bareback sex are just a few of the reasons some individuals make up for the bulk of the medical visits.

If you require medical insurance cover every itch, its going to cost a lot more. When people dont have any responsibility for the cost of care provided, like being billed for THREE attempts to put a needle in your arm, by a trainee, it just adds to the bill. The government RESTRICTS how many hospitals are allowed to have specific equipment, thus keeping the fees artificially high.

Part of the blame for skyrocketing health care in America can be blamed on the pharmaceutical industry.
Selling prescription drugs in Canada and Mexico at a fraction of what they cost US consumers, only hurts our health care bottom line.
Making a profit is one thing, holding US citizens hostage over prescription drugs is nothing short of wanton greed.

US citizens pay for R&D at the counter when they purchase and others control prices as they don't have to support the R&D. Not so sure that I care for it that way when my wifes cemo was a 1000 a week but I do understand the question on how do you pay for R&D another way?

In Mexico you go to the doc get script and aound the corner to the drug store. Doc appt will cost about 20 to 40 depending on situation. As Juan said in Mexico they utilize Darwin. If you are stupid enough to get prescription drugs and OD then the gene pool needs to be thinned because your not that bright. Kinda harsh way to look at it but it does reduce cost...............can't you see the PC folks in the US if this was our system. Talking heads would go crazy both L & C.

I work as a consultant to several large nonprofit research organizations. While most get some funding from drug companies, by far the largest proportion comes from the U.S. government via the National Institute of health. This has been true for at least the 30 years I have worked with them.
These nonprofits, like Fred Hutchinson Research Institute and The Benaroya Research Institute depend on federal grants and endowments for the vast majority of their funding. If the researcher comes up with a patentable product while working on a federal grant, that patent belongs to the federal government.
I am a firm believer in capitalism but the current system of pharmaceutical lobbyist pushing their addenda is wrong. Consider that the recent legislation to expand drug coverage under Medicare has a specific provision forbidding the govt to bargain for the best price. Where do you suppose that little gem came from? If you doubt the money the pharmaceuticals make just watch you TV during prime time and see how many pills they are pushing.

Here are some interesting numbers from 1999, I can only imagine this trend has accelerated in the past ten years. These are the bonuses paid to to[ executives of our 10 largest pharmacutical companies. If ypu want more data follow this:

http://www.actupny.org/reports/durban-licensing.html



$31,424,000


$15,159.000


$6,032,000


$16,486,000


$12,505,000


$4,381,000


$6,041,000


$4,093,000


$2,119,000


$2,366,000
$39,753,000


$38,983,000


$26,424,000


$22,061,000


$18,525,000


$16,272,000


$12,940,000


$11,779,000


$6,385,000


$5,042,000
$159,691,000


$107,115,000


$80,559,000


$250,681,000





$830,000


$33,667,000


$29,867,000


$104,506,000


$17,291,000

Which doesn't make sense to me. Why is big Pharma spending ad dollars trying to sell to me? I have no purchasing power. It's not like I can walk into my doc's office and say, "hey doc, I saw drug X on TV last night and I want some." I should trust my doctor to prescribe the drugs I need not what sounded sexy on the telly last night.

Of course the cynic in me realizes that Pharma is deviously trying to create a nation of hypocondriacs so we'll imagine the symptoms those advertised drugs will cure.

Spot on! I hate those f'n drug commercials. It perpetuates a false need.

Didn't say I liked the system. If you think it cost a 1000 to make a little bag of cemo then..........but that said if by profit or goverment we pay for R&D. Drugs sold outside US depending on patents and other bs are cheaper as this is not a factor. 3rd world countries get the same drugs much cheaper as they can not afford our prices.

I sorta look at this the same way as 30% of our hosp and doctors cost are covering people with no insurance or the ability to pay. Which is the thing that gets me the most. We are paying for drugs and health care all ( or most ) now one way or the other and it is all hidden and really sucks for low income and the non work place insured. To say access to health care and drugs are not a citizens right sounds good unless your sick and lack $$$$$$$$$ then it becomes BS......fast.

Point is to zoom in on one aspect of the system rather than all the parts does not work. Our greatest medical expenses are in our last 2 or three years of our lives when we become terminally ill...........which we all will get to go through. If you want to fix the health care cost then you have go after all aspects of the system not just the bloody drug companies jabbing us but all providers of all aspects of health care from birth to when we check out..........something we as a people don't seem to want to ( or can't ) get our arms around.

Or there is enough room for a Cranial Rectal Inversion I worked for the Fed (and retired) for 42 years, and from the "Inside" you do NOT want anything to do with it.

Kill 9 out of every 10 Lawyers and Presto-Changeo...the World becomes a better place.

I agree; and the performance they are rewarding is overcharging the American public. Hankster can you tell me you think an annual salary of $250,000,000 is reasopnable? The boards have absolutly no incentive to hold down such outrageous payments as they are aslo recipients of similar payment. It a good ole boy network financed by americas middle class.

Why are drugs so much cheaper in Mexico and Canada? Yes the exact same drug masxde in at the exact same factoiry is often 1/3 the price of what we pay in the USA.

I do not hate the drug companies - I hate their behaviour.

[quote=Hankster]High pay isn't limited to just the drug industry execs.

That you have right.

They don't get that kind of money unless they deliver the goods.

On that you are totally wrong.

Many of the execs that got the largest bonuses ran companies that lost money or even went bankrupt. They have seen their pay raise exponentially during good times and bad. I think they pay themselves that much for the same reason a dog licks his dick.

The oldest of adages in Business,is simplistic: "They're only benefits if you use them".

I've no qualm with the Private Sector paying wages in accords to it's profit margin,as those calls are none of my business. Where I begin to take issue,is when those wages are afforded via Gubment interaction(s),which is akin to kicking me in the nuts and running away with my wallet to pad same.

That dog won't/can't Hunt.

Invent the cure and charge in accordance.

Until then...STFUP.

Right.

Do you charge your employer?

Nice try.

I'm fraught with the bane of being exceedingly bright and it's a plight that I'm forced to deal with.

In other words...you cash them checks?

Zzzzzing...

Perhaps not...

Trouble is,you haven't the available latitude to exceed your inherent "intellect"...nor are such things secreted. Feel free to refrain beating that drum(again).


You are welcome to set upon a porch stoop and await a "gift" for gratis,but rest assured,them odds are longer than even your imagination.

The Bomb was a nice Cure and it saved many,largely for gratis. I'll toss you that one,despite it going over your head on many levels.

Who did Newton discount,whether by resume or in the flesh?!!?

And at what fiscal contention?

I'm astute and that's more than plenty.

Should you take issue with a single factoid of which I poignantly speak,PLEASE be brazen enough to step forward to the microphone and voice same loudly,in it's inaccurate portrayal.

Sweeten the pot by holding your breath.

Fortunately you are wrong again. Much of the cutting edge research done today is done by not for profit research institutes. There are hundreds of these organizations all working on various problems. The researchers are typically paid in the 100-200 K range and the Executive Director roughly the same. So much of the current research is NOT done by pharmaceutical companies. Also consider the research done at veteran’s hospitals and universities.

These dedicated researchers are paid a good income but could, in most cases, make considerably more by going over to a pharmaceutical company. But feel they are doing more important work where they are. However the disparity in private vs. not for profit and university salaries is often so large many good university professors are lost to them every year.

But to understand the dedication of these scientists know that most leave not for more salary, but for more modern facilitates and equipment.

No, most cutting edge research done today is not done by people reporting to people who make $2,000 per hour.

Stupid has no Cure and you wax that with unbridled eloquence.

Congratulations?

A screaming hissy fit emoticon is close,though hardly suprising.

As an aside,what were Fleming's,Lester's and Pasteur's net worth(s) at their time of death and were those sums appropriate or lacking,as per their contributions?

I just love to see stupid flounder.

Stupid MUST hurt!??!

"No not an hour a minute, per hour they make about $160,000.00"

I'm curious as to who "they" is,that rakes $140,160,000 in wages a year?

Math doesn't trouble me,which is why I copy/pasted your sheer idiocy in it's complete stupidity.

You'll note that one going past your furrowed brow as well.

Par.

Commensurate with the job done and in accordance to what the market would(did) bear.

Roughly in that order.

As an aside,I'd LOVE to see a pic of YOUR house,ride and toys.

Laffin'!

Also feel free to denote the "Cures" you unveiled.

Laffin'.

I didn't catch her naming replacements,for those she took issue(s) with,whether those things were real or IMAGINED.

Though it'd be no thing to quiz her in the cheese line,bitching at the length of line.

Laffin'.

Hardly,you blathering idiot..

"So do you think stock options are not part of salary or what exactly are you saying? Here it is: $2,000.00/minute times 60 minutes to an hour equals $120,000.00 per hour. Am I good here so far? Full time employee is 2080 hours per year, so $120,000.00 times 2080 equals $249,600.00. Close enough?"

120,000 x 2080 is always 249,600,000.

Being THAT stupid,has GOTTA hurt.

GOOD call to erase the "Edit" stigma.

Laffin'.

I dig that 'pro can't manage a $9.99 Casio calculator,yet is equipped to Save The World.

Laffin'.

In fairness,to 'pro:(again)

"As an aside,what were Fleming's,Lester's and Pasteur's net worth(s) at their time of death and were those sums appropriate or lacking,as per their contributions?

I just love to see stupid flounder."

I'll let my math prowess slide,despite it being unveiled,much to her chagrin.

Laffin'

I reckon a 3-digit math error as a "hair" too?

Still awaiting pics.

Curiously enough,despite your bitching and moaning,you are the sole participant of the Thread to get something right.

Kudos?!!?

Let's just see a small picture of yourself?

Laffin'.

They garnered Political Asylum,amongst other "perks",none of which 3-digit Nancy could comprehend.

An eraser don't help your case Toots...you are no good on your feet,if only obviously.

Asking her to quantify numbers,is MEAN.

Laffin'

What else could you do,with your onslaught of unrivaled stupidity...besides "punt"?!!?

Par.

Laffin'

C'mon...just a "little" picture of you,if only to quantify the inherent stupidity. Wear glasses,so the crossed eyes ain't on parade.

C'mon,anyone that can wrong a Casio to a 200-million dollar+ "mistake" in political spending,had best cough a pose.

Few people are as stupid and such things should be "rewarded".

I'll go first,less a numerical concession and happily ply My Cure.

It's ALL good as the Loomis float rod and Shimano were well under 1K and my Loving Bride never blinked.

My bad,it were light-hearted.

3-digits+ to the good here.

Stocked up for many things,which you'll never see or experience and adds much humor at your expense.



Laffin'

You know...[censored] like this.



Laffin'.

Nice light.

More light.

Jughead on a Skookum Show.

Paying bills.

Seen/heard it all.

Still laffin' $100 a day + $17 per thousand.



Cashed the checks though.

Laffin'.

This rates the Guinness Book.

280' of logs...my Bucker in the background(though barely).

I'm [censored] RICH,in ways that can't be explained to you.

Let alone my crushing your head with my wallet.

Know this.

Schucks....where'd them worrying women go?!!?

Regardless,it makes a man's life easy.

Rude to leave a crowd with mouths agape,though it's my Swan Song.

My bad...as I'm simply a Tree Surgeon.

And..."yes it's cool",as I'm stuffing the douche bags.

As an aside:

This is where the naysayers shut the [censored] up.

Laffin'

Only fair to give them on the fence,a chance to stick both feet in their mouth.

Ooops!... pardon my working for a living,interrupting a discussion.

Though I cain't spell or do math.

Laffin'!

I've no doubt,that your gene pool connects you in more than one way,to utter uselessness and I'm far from suprised that the same is your Trump Card.

Which is why you've no pic of your mug,or your "job".

Laffin'

Done?

I've the luxury of not even having started,as well as riveting the masses.



Let me guess...your insecurities preclude even a single pic and you take issue(s) with my being concise ala numerical and literal constants,much to your chagrin?!!

Now is THE time to show your crossed eyes!

Laffin'

Ooooooooooh...whatta about Old Growth Fir and such?




Laffin'

Funny how you miss political debates by $200-million+ and can't post a single pic of yourself in kind.

Laffin'...my ass off.

I'm easy to topple here,as I'm Fishing.



Getcha' some.

Laffin'!

All in a day's work.

Lateral move.

Heavy Metal.

High School Diploma.



This was 25yrs ago.

Fame/Fortune from a Quarter Century ago.

Big Stick I caught a few You Tube vids of you & the kids hunting & fishing.....nice.

Mf

Always nice to reflect upon a 100,000,000 bd ft.+ career.



Busheling out of the gate.

I've been lucky enough to be in some places and see some things.

Grin.

Particularly liked the one where sis blows that huge buck while using the pink gun....classic sh!t there.

Mf

No doubt that she's a piece of work...I just stay out of her way.

Case in point..........

Similar..........

Wealth of photos Stick.

Mf

Cracks me up........





i just watch/learn.

"Wealth of photos Stick."


They ain't for sale.(grin)

Nice to have choices.

Nice work.

Watch the dots, KK. Too far apart and they are difficult for some to connect.

(Boy, that's opening the gate....)

Atta boy, come on through. Be sure to close it behind you. Stay out of the pens. I'll let you know when the KKids are born.

(that was toooo easy)

Man, KK is working on taking over Todd's "Most Arrogant Man On PP" title.
No doubt he is closing in on that most coveted distinction. At least Todd can offer more than just the usual liberal [censored], he sells worms! Oh and nice spoons too! Whereas KK just sells liberal horseshit by the truckload, hoping to get a few more weak minded individuals to buy into his load of crap. Pathetic to say the least. He has shown himself to be nothing more than an ostrich with his head in the sand... Problem with that is you can never see who is sneaking up behind you to stick it up your ass. What a smug, self righteous asshole!

I see you're trying to challenge Marsha for most hypocritical and ignorant poster...poser...on PP...but you've still got over 10,000 posts to go, if'n you really want to earn that title...we're not socialists yet, you won't get it for free...though your 23 posts are already racking up numbers like a bankrupt pharmaceutical company's CEO...

Stick, this thread has turned into a massive post count increase for you...but I'll admit I like the pics For all the things AK has to offer, not to mention all the things you joyfully wring out of it, don't get too stoked with your steelhead pics...besides elk, that's the one other thing we grow around here in sizes to put those puny northern mykiss to shame

Fish on...

Todd

Once again, I'll point out that KK and I both have jobs, jobs that pay lots of taxes that pay for your government run health care, Aunty...while you sit on your ass all day behind a computer, doing nothing useful with yourself whatsoever.

Fish on...

Todd

I feel pity for you, Marsha...as I said before, I wouldn't with it on anyone to feel the self-loathing you feel. You make up your "facts" behind a computer screen all day, doing nothing at all to be a useful part of society, and you know it. Everyone else knows it, too, and you must see that clearly, also.

You will be a big drain on your socialized government run health care system in the coming years, and those of us with jobs will be the ones paying for it, the "centrist" who believes she is owed everything from everyone...at the same time thinking that you actually deserve this luxury.

It's this type of hypocrisy and ignorance that is rampant in the faux-centrist camp, the same camp where other racists and cheap suits like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, and Bill O'Reilly live...but at least those "centrists" have jobs and pay some taxes.

We are the ones paying for your health care, which will end up costing us...not you...hundreds of thousands of dollars...our tax dollars...in the coming years. I don't begrudge you the health care you will need, even if it only serves to prolong your ass sitting behind a computer pontificating from down low...I just love pointing out the hypocrisy and self-anger coming out of your cave while you get it...

Fish on...

Todd

Nice rebuttal there Todd..proving once again what an arrogant ass you are! By the way, I really don't gives a rats ass about post counts.

You will be a big drain on your socialized government run health care system in the coming years, and those of us with jobs will be the ones paying for it, the "centrist" who believes she is owed everything from everyone...at the same time thinking that you actually deserve this luxury.


Todd, you nailed it and it is not about the bovine beauty but the other 47,ooo,ooo uninsured.

nynook, if in your world it's arrogant to point out facts, than so be it...but my last post is mostly just a recitation of facts.

Fact: I have a job, two actually, that both put thousands of dollars into the tax coffers.

Marsha does not.

Fact: In my America being an entrepeneur is the epitome of the American Way.

In Marsha's it is not.

Fact: Marsha gets government run health care that she contributes zero of her own tax dollars to.

I do, in fact, pay for her health care.

Fact: Marsha does not think that anyone else should get what she already has.

I think we all should.

Fact: Marsha's health care expenses will become larger and larger as time goes by, and will eventually cost all taxpayers paying for her government run health care program hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Marsha will not pay one penny into that system, while the rest of us, you included, will pay into for her, kinda like socialism.

Fact: You seem to think that reciting those clear facts is arrogant...I don't.

Have a problem with any of those facts?

Fish on...

Todd

Let my license lapse when I stopped practicing, plain and simple.

Marsha, you know nothing whatsoever about my finances, which beater car I drive around the country (My beater van that we drive around is a $60,000 2007 Dodge Sprinter with a Mercedes BlueTec motor in it), how much money I make selling tackle (not only more just this morning than you've made total in the past decade, but probably more just this morning than you made in a week...a month... of sitting on your ass in a bus driver's seat).

Those are some more facts for you, rather than just a bunch of runny $hit poured out of your ass while you dodder around behind your computer for ten hours per day, every day...

Back to the topic at hand, the facts in my previous post to nynook are the facts that are relevant to the health care debate...you don't pay $hit for it, and the rest of us with actual jobs do. You like it that way, and don't want anyone else to have it, especially if it comes from an uppity POTUS that happens to be of a race you despise.

Fish on...

Todd

Go figure, a topic headed off the rails towards reckless abandon.

As my personal life coach says, "Can't we all just get along?"

Nothing like an irrelevant comment from the peanut gallery to brighten the morning.

My god I can not believe I ready this whole thread. Painful. It did get slightly interesting at the end. Of course that had nothing.....nothing to do with the topic at had.
Nice pics though big stick

Big stick........great pics.
Blue Water.........by brother in law, you were talking about your old man..right?

FYI - The Washington State Bar site shows that there has been "no discipline notices found" against Todd. If this had been checked, this would have been obvious. This part of the post has no legs. So he quit being a member of the bar - so what?

Just a pitiful attempt to divert from the relevant facts...she gets health care financed by those of us with jobs, and thinks she deserves it.

Fish on...

Todd

."she gets health care financed by those of us with jobs, and thinks she deserves it."

sounds obamanistic, doesn't it?

As a fairly typical and pedestrian faux-centrist, she likes socialism when she gets everyone else to contribute to her, but despises it when she has to contribute, either to herself or to the society as a whole...

Fish on...

Todd

Wow, this one got ugly fast...carry on kids.

Deserted island, Day 301. Sun came up this morning. Found shoots and leaves for a fulfilling breakfast. Searched for fresh water but had an unexpected shower which left me with few precious handfuls from my bamboo/leaf water collection system. Wind blew this afternoon, shoots and leaves again. Sun went down. Covered up with my woven mat to get some rest I don't really need.

Deserted island, Day 302. Ever seen the movie Groundhog Day?

I pay more taxes every day than you likely ever have, Marsha...if you're looking for a deadbeat, go stand in front of a wide mirror. You don't pay for anything, your incredibly accomodating husband does. My very real jobs generate more economic growth and the attendant taxes than you have ever contributed.

Your constant inclusion of irrelevant drivel spilling out of your fat piehole just further shows that know you are a sponging stooge on society, and when your morbid obesity comes home to roost, I'll still be there paying piles of taxes to prolong your useless life.

Off to do more work, and go to the gym...then do more work. I'm sure you can find a translation app on the InterWebz over the next 10 hours to figure out what those things are, as I'm sure they look like Greek to you right now.

Fish on...

Todd

facts or no,you're still arrogant

This thread is now AWSOME!

Carry on.

Back to the original question about the gov wanting people to narc on others that don't hold the governments views on healthcare, that is OK with you progressives? And if I go to a townhall meeting and one of those goons from the SEIU that the Obama team sicked on those that had the gall to disagree lays a finger on me is going to find out that I have a mean streak and it takes a good minute or two to run it's course.

Use caution Jerry. One of those goons might be a plain clothes sherriff deputy with a tazer. I dont know if your old heart can take it...

Aunty M, aunty em
I with you on this Toad is just reaffirming that socialized health care is wrong, in that those who work pay for those who don't.

personally I think the original topic is frightening. This whole PP site is fishy and who knows what obammy and his goons might be up to with the info they gather.

Best thread ever!

Kind of funny seeing the liberal's screaming "FOUL" when the ultra right folks use their own tricks against them. Both sides are acting like children though. (I'm talking about the folks at these meetings, not necessarily the folks here, but that may change soon.)

By the way, In before the lock!

DOOOOOOD!!!!! i go out in the woods for a bit and miss all this!! back to the woods i go. civilization is too much for me.

Funny times, funny times.
I always think of that "H" word when I hear this crap. People complaining about tactics they invented being used against them. Even worse is the fact that each and every one of the left would scream like little school girls if the right had proposed collecting decenting veiws. I could only imagine what would be said yet we get silence. There is no defense for doing this but at least some(not all) on the right would have had the balls to say so. None on the left appear to.
You do have to give it to BO though. I do love and admire how good at politics he is. Everyone who does not follow the white house is now an "operative". What a word. Like some russian operative or spy. Reminds me of the old Hoover days when the decenters were "communists". Everything is a conspiracy and anyone who does not think like me is a communist......I mean operative. Crap I mix those up sometimes.
They are masterful at this though. Better than anyone in recent memory. The way he avoids the true issues and makes everything an us against them type of arguement. You have to admire the guy. Politics 101.....that might even be 201.
I just wonder who the next boogyman will be when they put forth the tax hike to pay for this plan. Rush, Hannity, foxnews, insur comp, the last admin, the list is endless. And better yet, how many will fall in line with it. The masses I am sure. We will have the usuals here defending it no matter how bad it is and preaching the white house talking points. Preaching about the boogyman to avoid the true issue.

Wow, Jerry. Is that really what's going on?

Freefall comes to mind.

Re: original question. I didn't hear it, but if Obama is taking the names of those opposed to the gov't. health plan, that is just as wrong as when Bush said, "either you're with us, or again' us," in reference to his war on "terra". Unbelievably stupid if true.

BTW, my Congressman, who's held 300 town hall meetings in his 11 years in Congress, is holding none, zero, nada this summer cuz of stories about health care complainers showing up and acting rowdy. What a nitwit! Holy Fvck! Democracy is rowdy. At the moment I'm thinking Dems were better behaved under Clinton.

Sg

Although not as much as some.
Oh, you mean the monthly co pay and Medicare part B premium, as compared to the $800-$1,000 per month they would pay IF they could get insured at all?
And what would these old folks get if the republicans had their way. Oh yeah, nada. The Rs fought Medicare tooth and nail, just like they fought against Social Security. If they had been as good at telling lies then as, they are now - ala Palin's death panels, etc. we wouldn't have Medicare today. Imagine the health of this nation if seniors had no health coverage. There would be massive bankruptcies and old folks losing their homes.

It cracks me up to see seniors raising hell about not wanting Gobmint health care at the same time they are happily enrolled in Medicare.

Democracy IS and should be rowdy Salmo... but what's happening at these town hall meetings being put on by Democratic members of Congress IS NOT democracy in action, IMO.

Right-wing groups such as "Freedom Works" are financing, providing scripts to and bussing a bunch of ignorant, ginned up with hate, redneck morons to these events to shout down the speakers and disrupt the process.

Protesting and voicing your opposition is one thing... and a GOOD thing... but that's not what's been happening. These right-wing extremists are REFUSING to allow the process to even happen... which is stifling the very democracy they claim to be exercising.

These Democratic members of Congress have received death threats, have been lynched in effigy and have had fights break out at their events... and all of this over healthcare reform? What does carrying posters of Obama with a hitler moustache and swastikas have to do with healthcare reform? This is a well-organized effort on the part of those who stand to lose the most by any changes in our current system to prevent at all costs any disruption to the status quo.

No wonder your Congressperson (Baird?) doesn't want to hold any town halls. What REAL good would it do?

As far as the govt. soliciting Americans to narc on their fellow citizens in a concerted effort to stamp out ANY resistance to the implementation of their healthcare plan... you would have to be a paranoid, hate-mongerin', FOX-watchin', right-wing simpleton to believe that to be true!

Which would explain WHY it has the support that it does... I suppose?

So now Brian Baird compares people who are against the current healthcare reform plan to Nazi's, lynch mobs, and Tim McVeigh.

Clark County Columbian article on Baird.

Seems like he can't stand a little pressure.

Maybe Baird has been wtaching Rush?

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200908060021

Whoa big guy...............with Soc Sec you go back and read the testimony on what it would cost and provide well before you whiz dung through the mix. What promised was miles away from what we ended with and the same Medicare. You do yourself a injustice.

Oh yes I retired early, am on Soc Sec with union pension & Med that will cost me $50 a month. Frankly I see nothing wrong with the system.......now my brother that pays $1200 a month and has been self employeed most of his life might think I need an mental adjustment.

Rush is a total moonbat whacko, Dave.

Well there's one thing we can agree on!

The bottom line is both are God sneds to the American people and both were opposed by the Republicans. Are they perfect - hell no - for example both parties raided Social Security. Are they better thna the current system where many people end their lives on Medicaid -welfare, because no one can afford the cost of a serious bout with cancer and a few years in a nursing home - hell yes.

I find it laughable that so many hate welfare but end up putting their parents in a nursing home that is funded by Medicaid, which is welfare.

If you find Social Security to be such a problem feel free to refund you next check - I'm keeping mine.

Now now now. I will keep my check thank you but Dave I am on my wife's death benefit. Had not it been for that the 80k she paid in and her employer matched gone as mine if I kick the bucket which Soc. Sec is counting on as if we all lived to 90 then all gone. Before I was borne my grandmother was one of the first to get L&I so many years ago when my gramp was killed so I understand programs and intent.

I do not have probs with government programs but none have done or have cost what the nation was promised and this happens as we get used to this then expand for that reason, then expand for this reason or add a benefit for that reason. Want a read big guy???? Go get the congressional testimony on what, how, and what rates the income tax would be when it was implemented AND WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE PROMISED.

So when you talk medical for all then everyone then one should approach with caution. You should not trust the SOB that says oh we will control cost so it doesn't cost anymore as they piling BS on 10 ft deep deep just the same as the SOB who says oh everyone can have health care we don't need to change anything. Both are lying SOB's.

We need government programs to help those who can't for what ever the reason. Health care big example but it needs boundaries that stick so both parties can't use it to buy votes. Which big guy is why 90% of the changes in the tax code since the income tax and other social programs have been about. We let the SOB's in DC ( both R & D ) use our tax money to finance programs and just pure PORK to buy our votes. WE deserve what we get and it will rhyme with shucking!

YES we do Rivrguy!

So WHY don't we use these town hall meetings in a PRODUCTIVE way to pass along ideas for making that a reality... instead of chanting Obama is the Anti-Christ?

Wait....You mean he ISN"T????

Yeah, that kind of sounded like the president's stfu and get out of the way comment to me too

Get a grip! Obama is a muslim. m-u-s-l-i-m. He also was not born in the United States and therefore is not eligible to be president.

Tally-ho!

What DOESN'T sound like that to you Vic?

nynook = nookie dreamin'?

Hmmmmm...

Either way... so tell me, how exactly does chanting Obama is the Anti-Christ bring us closer to a workable solution to the national healthcare issue?

Good question. Watching this horror flick unfold as BO is labeled the true antichrist, not a citizen ect.......but then anyone that objects to the a thoughtless mass lemming health care stampede toward the cliff is a Rush twin driven by greed and hatred ..............it makes one wonder. Just so heartburn doesn't flare. Rush is a entertainer and judging by ratings rather good. Want the Lib counter? Try the ED man! Rush doesn't have a stranglehold on obnoxious talk!

Back to the subject. It is about money! Not profits that are obscene ( DV I give this one with ) such as the drug companies but campaign contributions. Both parties have fundamental views that are really reasonable but different and this is good. Throw in the money it takes to get elected and both parties are bought and sold to interest that are highly involved for philosophical and economic reasons and that are not necessarily the best for our population as a whole. Read this thread from this perspective. If you had been in a coma for 50 years and the first thing you read was this thread, would you think the world was nuts? No doubt what so ever me thinks!

It is what it is ............... and we as a people will survive it despite our government not because of our government. Our kids will pay one hell of a price down the road for our foolish behavior though.

Horror flick??....



About the most honest thread I've ever read....

Welcome to the board nynook .

Mf

O's troops should be quelling the uprising very soon. Believe it.

Which troops would those be Slab?

Lemme guess... his ACORN brownshirts... right?


If the folks who oppose any sort of changes to our healthcare system would just express that sentiment in at least a semi-civil manner... instead of pluggin' their ears and shoutin' "Keep the government outta my Medicare"... then the democratic process which we claim to be so proud of would truly be working.

The ability of this right-wing hysteria to cloud the judgement of the otherwise rational has me completely mystified... I tell ya.

Hatred really IS the most powerful and base of the human emotions.

Semi civil manner.........would that be KK-like?
Just looking for a bit of clarity here. Do you deem the assault-frenzied responses of the far left sane?
The troops would be the droves of high school grads enlisting at present.....exactly as predicted. The number of lattes per day is inversely proportional to the number of fresh military recruits. More people joining the "free ride" train. And now with all sucking the gov teat soon, any hold-outs will be forced in line. Sound like Democracy to you?

Only 70% more to go.....that shouldn't impact anyone financially, eh? Oh, I forgot...money is no object.
Idealistic nonsense, more of the new economics at work.
Sorry but all I can see is quality of life sliding down the drain....but then if that's where you live, you'd never know the difference, right? The only advancement of the Progressive is the advancement of Regression. We're going backwards.

Your correct you can't fix stupid............stay away from mirrors.

Ever watch someone die slowly, painfully, without hope of surviving? I have. You have fight for the right to die in this country as if it was anyones else biz if you choose when to end the fight to live. Our greatest health care cost are in our last couple of years of our lives as law damn near dictates that providers throw everything in the book at it in the hope that you are the one in a hundred it saves. Take lung cancer which I know. Stage one fight like hell, stage two if it is not small cell go for it. Small cell, stage 3 or 4 get on with what time you have and when the pain is to severe go to pain killers and go forward and when it is just to much, as sometimes living is harder than dieing, choose your time to leave.

Sound harsh? Well it is the reality of death. How we address the monster cost of trying to save us from a death at all cost that is certain to happen is a moral and financial dilemma. I do not know the answer but I do know this. Lying in a bed hooked to a vent for a year with little hope of recovery is not the way to do it.

1. No....do you expect that everyone should? Or only the obsessed? My understanding is that it proposes a government "option". Subsidized insurance rates for the poor.

2. Wrong here...No fear whatsoever.

3. Only Gov Doc's I know of are in the Military. Your point here is??

You can now here and Oregon choose your time to leave. Pills are simple enough but the citizens had to get the right by voting to get that which was their right period. No place in the constitution does it say the government has the right to tell you you have to live anymore than suicide is illegal. Illegal? You think someone that finds life that painful gives a damn about that law?

AS to the question it is called litigation and as having been married to and OR nurse a trauma unit lead nurse know how the decision making process works. Sure you have the right to refuse care but providers don't have the right to with hold treatment no matter how fruitless the effort is. Not that they should mind you but where is the line? When does one say the cost is to great. One week more? Month, Year? Bed ridden no hope of ever recovering? On a feeding tube and vent in a coma? If you want to argue the point do it it a manner that addresses the moral and ethical issues, not just lob hand grenades over the fence to watch people run.

Oh Hell yeah, let's not render a verdict on the obvious. At the rate we are flying off the chart in debt, you really think there's an out? I'll be kind and just refer to you as a dreamer.
Been hearing alot lately about how the economy is showing signs of recovery....wow, I sure feel better. Our GDP numbers are impressive, someone got a job finally, a whole bunch of folks got new cars, wow! Didn't cost me a nickel, either. You?

"They're not exactly known for being honest.................. "

two libs in a row decrying foul......oh, the humor of it all.

and hateful? you forgot hateful.

Oh wait, one party in particular is the whiny name caller, no? Is that hateful?

and for the record.....racist is a big paint brush.....don't try to paint too wide a swath.

KK....how many times growing up did you hear the words, "You go long."?

just curious

this seems a bit fishy:

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

It wouldn't destroy the insurance industry and you know it. However, it may just lower their profit margin from 400+% to around a respectable 15% maybe. How is it morally ethical to continue denying 47 million people health care simply to protect the exorbitant profit margin of some company?

Why would you think it acceptable for someone to decide "what treatments will be administered for various ailments" based upon their profit margin?

Death Panel? Anyone who believes that is an idiot, pure and simple, straight to the point.

I betcha a dollar that anyone who believes in Death Panels is a member of the 21% or so that thinks Dubya did a good job, and a member of the Birther Society, as well...and probably thinks that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11.

The fact is the Repubs in Congress who are spouting about Death Panels are liars, and they know it. The problem is that a good portion of their constituency doesn't mind, and in fact relishes in it.

It's called "pandering to the base"...and base is what it is, in every sense of the word.

Fish on...

Todd

Cut taxes and prevent competition to the insurance industry. Same old, same old.

My rep is having a townhall in Everett on Wednesday at 5, rumor is that the call went out to some of the local unions to show up at 3:30 to get early seating.

You'd better not go then Jerry!

Jay Inslee's thugs are particularly brutal I hear... ESPECIALLY to right-wingers disguised as 60's hippy guitar players!

Myself... I'd be more worried about tryin' to understand what Jay is sayin'. That lisp of his is awful thick.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems." Barry O 8/11/2009

Oregon Congressmen Wu just had a town hall meeting last night.
Each person entering the building was given a number, Wu drew numbers out of a hat, the person with that number got to have their say, anyone responding out of order was shushed by other participants or they got escorted from the building.
From the sound of the article in todays paper, all went smooth with everyone getting a fair chance at stating their position.

I'm actually a union member just don't vote the union line. I think that I will go.

Bring a gun.....




Men with guns -- outside town hall Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:45 PM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: White House, Ron Allen

From NBC's Ron Allen
Outside the event where President Obama will conduct his town hall, there is an anti-Obama protestor with a gun -- a pistol strapped to his lower leg.

The local police chief said it's legal for the man to have a registered handgun -- as long as it is not concealed. What's more, he is on private property, a church yard, which has given him permission to be there.

*** UPDATE *** More on the man with the gun... William Kostric is a married man in his mid 30S who works in sales. He says he moved here to New Hampshire from Arizona about a year ago, because it's a "live free or die" state -- and he thought Arizona was becoming too restrictive with its gun laws.

He's passing out a bookmark that says, "Join the Second Amendment Revolution, the most exciting pro-liberty movement in over 200 years."

He's a Ron Paul supporter, who opposes just about everything Obama, including health care reform.

The local police say he is within his rights to carry a handgun openly under state law. He was carrying a 9-mm Smith and Wesson strapped to his lower leg.

Police say he's OK on a public sidewalk. Kostric says he has permission from a church just down the street from the high school to be on its private property.

He says he was approached by a "detective," possibly a Secret Service Agent, who told him he could be arrested within 1,000 feet of a school with a weapon under a federal law. Kostric moved back to private property.

When Obama arrived, the police had Kostric under surveillance. A local police captain said the Secret Service has been "in the loop."

Kostric has been about 50 to 75 yards from the entrance to the high school, since about 11:00 am ET, doing interviews and carrying a sign and his gun and police have had their eye on him. But as long as he's been "cooperative," they have watched, but let him be

Yeah, he's under "surveillance" allright. Sure hope he doesn't have to sneeze, else his brains will be all over the ground.

Just curious, Jerry, what are you hoping to ask/learn by going to the townhall meeting?

I've been wondering the same of anyone that is thinking of going to one. It would seem that the Internet could provide the same information in a more timely manner.

Of course, you'd have to live without the townhall vibe.

can you imagine, what if

http://www.comcast.net/video/clinton-i-m-secretary-of-state-not-bill/1210774137/Comcast/1211441681/

I would like to find out if my rep has done his due diligence or if he is just parroting the Obamacare line. What part of the internet--- who has the truth? The bill is too full of holes to be really meaningful--- the meat will be inserted by career government workers.

OK Jerry:

What exactly IS this "Obamacare line" that you say everyone is parroting?

How can the bill be too full of holes when there ISN'T even a bill yet?

Right now there are 4 preliminary committee bills floating around between the House and Senate. When Congress gets back from Summer recess on Sept. 15th they will be reconciling the different pieces of legislation into a more finalized bill. Staffers ALWAYS supply the "meat" of the bills also.

And finally and with all due respect... Are you REALLY open to the truth... or are you just looking for evidence to support your pre-conceived notions?

A LOT of truth has been supplied to you here... and yet you seem to favor the right-wing fringe positions over it? I sincerely hope you will keep an open mind.

The funniest line of the whole 30 some page abortion....

Like the line from the movie "Shooter"....."The truth is what I say it is"....or in 4skins world...."The truth is what KK and Todd say it is"

It's the SECOND funniest line Dingle.

The funniest is you desperately tryin' to appear clever.

KK....ain't u sweet.
"Don't you have a seal to screw?" ????

The only reference to "seal" I have made recently is when I commented that my wife is half seal. A tongue in cheek reference that indicated that my wife really likes fish.

And in your pathetic desperation to get me out of your little world, you drag my wife into it? You know, dude, you are so full of vile bile that you are just leaking all over the place. Everyone who disagrees with you is your enemy in your eyes and your defense is to attempt to assassinate their character(s) by third-grade level name calling and such.

Grow up. You do your cause a disservice.

bluewaterpro,

My bad(again).

Whatcha' do for a living?

Laffin'

Do not confuse "care",with laughing my ass off.

I'd imagine that saves you a fair amount on Kleenex.

Being a sellout has gotta be fulfilling...feel free to elaborate on same.

I was listing to someone talk about how long it would take to get care if the plan was approved and how we would end up having to ration it. Might thought then went to this:
1. Do you think doctors will flee the US? or
2. Do you think that more people will be getting needless medical procedures? or
3. Are you scared that more poor sick people will actually start getting care and that will push the priviledged people back from getting the care they so greatly deserve?

Since I truely believe that the doctors won't leave, and since the biggest arguement usually includes that statement that fewer procedures will be available, it seems that most people who fear rationing are actually more afraid that someone else will get helped before they do. Even if we talk about doctors leaving this country, they still will most likely stay in the field and help other deserving people. The truth is, the arguement is one of self importance and prejudice, truely believing that some people deserve care over others.

1) Nope

2) Nope

3) Nope

Common sense ain't your gig...three-strikes and you are OUT!

Neither common sense nor pride,are available on the instructional level.

If only obviously.

Then, big stick, what is the reasoning behind beleiving that the now so wonderfully accessible care will suddenly become unaccessible? The person in question was a talk show host who was talking about how he was able to get a procedure done in one day, but in Canada it takes 17 weeks. So why the difference. It could very well be that the pay there sucks compared to across the boarder. But if we lowered the pay, would the doctors leave. Like you said, NO.

Pardon my inability,in readily shifting my brain into a gear lower than your best case scenario.

I digress...

(1) Name the Country(ies),that our flourishing Medical Profession will flock to,so as to reap inordinate fiscal rewards for their current level(s) of Expertise?

(2) Name the subsequent procedure(s),that will then become mundane to the tune of being under the radar?

(3) Name the Blue Bloods destined to be tossed into the Alley,so as to make way for Illegal Alien Crack Whore's at Cedars-Sinai and/or Walter Reed(et al)?

If what you didn't know,was converted to daylight...the World would be blinded and that is being GENEROUS!

Ae you bitching,or bragging?

The beauty of creating your own Company,is retiring at 21.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread490870/pg1

Work is subjective and it's safe to say you don't quantify. Same goes your ideal of living.

I concur on your lack of a brag being inherent.

Poor Barak will hang himself umpteen times over and I'm not even a fan.

I am certainly open to the "truth", but we all wear glasses that color what we believe. I also know that I see the "truth" from a conservative viewpoint.

If there isn't even a bill yet then what the hell is Barry's hurry to get it passed? You are supporting nothing because by your own admission it doesn't exist. Would any wise business person invest (and that is what we are being told to do by the party of all that is good) his money or trust in a preconceived plan that the authors themselves know nothing about? I learned a phrase long ago and I'm sure we all have. "Trust me I'm from the Government." Run!!!! Get as far away as you can from the "truth"!

I can guarantee you if "Tricky Dick" were alive today he'd be laughing his arse off!

http://thestimulist.com/listen-up-lou-dobbs-socialist-and-the-n-word/

In the increasingly ugly health care debate, “socialist” has come to have a few different meanings. There is the actual style of governing—and critiques of Obama’s health care effort on those grounds are certainly legit. The word has also been stripped of that clinical definition and used merely as a conservative bludgeoning tool—no different than when those on the left say “right-wing nut.” That’s okay, too. To be clear: I think those two uses of “socialist” are the vast majority and are fine. But after listening to many of the birthers, as well as ugly voices at some of the GOP town halls (where the idea of lynching recently seemed to be applauded), I wondered—let me repeat that: wondered—whether “socialist” was being used as a code word for the N-word, an outlet for racist anxiety and anger.

http://thestimulist.com/listen-up-lou-dobbs-socialist-and-the-n-word/

The "is socialism a code word for the N word" is quickly becoming the latest play in the liberal playbook.

Man, I gotta get these playbooks I keep hearing about.

Do you have a copy of the rightie playbook, Vic? I figure I can get a copy of the lefty playbook from cocksucker or Todd.

How long would it be before someone played the race card? You could time it on your watch. Surpised that the normal offenders waited this long. 41 pages has got to be a new record for them.....anyone keeping track.

Everyone agains the health care plan is now a racist. Love that. Strong argument there. Pathetic.

Yeah... them damned liberals are a crafty bunch... ain't they Vic?

Always playin' the race card and ALWAYS tryin' to get one over on the REAL true-blue conservative Americans.

It really IS just one huge conspiracy ya know... and much to our chagrin... you seem to have it all figgered out.

Well 4 Salt. You and other libs here LOVE to give the old "you get your news from FOX" line. If you can 't see that the Liberal MSN bunch are equally as biased,whacked, and trying to get ratings as the Fox crowd, then you are just as guilty of not using your noodle as the conservatives you point fingers at. Back to the old pot and kettle thing. The only real truth in this whole health care debate is that both sides are overstating/understating/distorting/ and or lying to forward their agendas. Seems you bought one side hook line and sinker with out much of a fight.

Vic, what is your proposal? The status-quo?


Text below quoted from http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/08/12/2027776.aspx

*** Rampant misinformation: As it turns out, one of the most striking things watching the town halls yesterday -- Obama's, Specter's, and McCaskill's -- was how misinformed the public was about the health-care debate. It's no wonder that Obama spent much of his time yesterday explaining what his plans WOULDN'T do versus what they WOULD do. Here’s one question that Specter received: “President Obama has stated more than once that his goal is to have a single-payer system. Are you for a single-payer system? (While Obama expressed support for a single-payer system before becoming a U.S. senator, he campaigned against it during the presidential contest, and every bill that has cleared a congressional committee doesn't establish a single-payer system.) Here’s another: “I reviewed [H.R.] 3200 the best I could. To me it was obviously written with the assumption that government has the right to control our lives from pre-birth to death.” (As PolitiFact, Factcheck.org, and the AP have written, there is nothing in any piece of legislation that has a say in end-of-life decisions. The provision that has caused the uproar authorizes Medicare to pay doctors for counseling patients about end-of-life care, if the patient wishes.)

*** More fact-checking: Another question: “I do not want to pay on my health care plan that includes the right for a woman to kill her unborn baby. Is it true that this plan is in the health care bill?” (In the House legislation, no federal funds would be used to pay for abortions; if a woman wants an abortion under her plan, the money would come from her insurance premiums. Also, Americans would have the choice of choosing an insurance plan that covers abortion and one that does not.) And here was this question Specter received: “I have a question on page 58 and 59 of this bill, which gives the government access to private individual bank accounts at their free will.” (What?) As McCaskill noted on TODAY, “There are just so many people who are hearing things that aren’t just true.” Still, McCaskill said she was proud of the people who showed up at her town hall. “They don’t trust government right now… I get that distrust.”

*** And fact-checking Obama: But the president also made some misleading statements of his own at his town hall yesterday. “I have not said that I was a single-payer supporter because, frankly, we historically have had an employer-based system in this country with private insurers, and for us to transition to a system like that I believe would be too disruptive.” But Obama did advocate a single-payer system back in 2003, although since then he has a said a single-payer wouldn’t work. Obama also repeated this line: “If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan.” However, there is nothing in any bill moving through Congress that would enforce that. (In fact, it's surprising the White House continues to push this line -- there is NO way the government can guarantee that a business won't change health care providers. They just can't.) And then Obama said, “We have the AARP on board because they know this is a good deal for our seniors.” But AARP put out a statement yesterday saying that it hasn’t officially endorsed any of the bills moving through Congress, although it has said some encouraging words about them.

No Vic.....it is all truth that comes from that side. Read it on the white house website. Now you just keep your head down and watch out for the "mobs" and "operatives" that are out there after your congressmen.
Not that the "union thugs" are any better from the other side. What a bunch of jackasses we sent to DC. Both sides are full of them. Sad that some think it only applies to half the crowd in that town. Well dispersed throughout.

Aunty,
Of course doctors are leaving for higher pay. If we had a single payer program, that would be eliminated. Is that what you are arguing for? The way the system is run right now, the doctors have plenty of work for higher paying private insurance companies and so choose to omit certain programs.
There is also an incentive to limit the amount of participating provider. The question is whether or not we truely want a market driven health care system. If so, should everyone who wants to be a doctor be able to start his or her own practice without intervention. Once we allow any intervention, then we have a problem. We limit the number of qualified providers, then we allow them to charge what ever they want for a resource we all must have.
I guess its all ok for you since you can get that resource and others can't. But already you are squealing about how there is a lack of doctors willing to take your program. Eventually you may have to supplement more and more of your care until you are where we all are. Basically unable to do it.

Found this little tidbit.

Sound politics blog

August 11, 2009
WA Senators Both to Attend Stealth Event
As reported by NW Digest, Senators Cantwell and Murray, along with Rep. Baird, are having a public get-together at the Cowlitz Expo Center on Thursday.

The weird thing is that they are trying to get union people to show up to counter-protest the healthcare protestors, but this event wasn't known about until today. It seems to me they are trying to set it up as a stealth meeting so that most people there will be pro-healthcare, just so they can say that our state's in favor of it.

If you can go, sign up, wear green, and have fun!

Posted by pudge at August 11, 2009 10:50 PM | Email This

Are they trying to stack the deck, like the democrats are accusing the republicans are doing? They are all a bunch of fawkers.

Well maybe it's time that medical schools and hospitals start treating interns and residents like human beings. Enough with the 48-72hr shifts and the gool ol' boys club thinking that since that's what I did it's good nuff for you. Maybe if Drs. didn't have enormous student loans to repay and huge insurance premiums they would pocket more but make less.

Sorry, messed that up.

AuntyM,

What if the gov picked up say 75% of student loans for MD's?

...or 100% with some sort of contract.

Cut down on the time for pay increase from attending to resident.....

Show your work, Dogfish. Quoting an Internet blog isn't good enough. Not to say that isn't true but the way you are presenting it is no different than me pointing to a webpage saying the moon landing never happened.

I still waiting to see a picture of a bus unloading a bunch of rightwing wackos at one of the town hall meetings.

Take a bus to the meeting, JG...whatever constitutes a "bunch", you'll be one whacko closer

Fish on...

Todd

Jerry, I wish you were working towards improving the debate.

I haven't seen any busses but I've seen plenty of people that would qualify as wackos. Anyone going to those things that isn't asking an honest, thoughtful question is simply there to either stir things up or watch things be stirred up. Most people on this thread seem to be in that club as well.

As I posted above, much of the time/intensity related to the meetings has been in regard to either promoting/shouting/addressing falsehoods or ridiculous "interpretations" of the proposed house bill.

Here is what happens when you ask a sincere thoughtful question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L3FnWNkIzU

They aren't listening and they don't care what we think!

Vic, what was her question? Honestly, at the very end of the clip, listen to how she describes her current situation. Do you think that the current system will benefit her seeing as she is a past cancer patient who is losing her job and will need to acquire private insurance on her own?

BTW, she also implies that Congress doing something because it is "simply good for America" is somehow wrong. I'm not sure I'd agree with that.

To tell you the truth, she is a classic Joe-The-Plumber... someone that is actually fighting against something that would benefit her.

I'm not picking a side. I'm just saying that both sides are playing the same game and they both suck at it. Somebody has to point it out. It would be interesting to find out the facts, after the fact to see if what was stated was true.

Me, I'm not going. I have stairs to finish.

While the facts might be hard to find/know, some of the lies being promoted as fact are easily disproved.

I feel confident that you or I are way better off doing something around the house or going fishing than going to one of those meetings.

We didn't get to hear all of what she had to say, so who knows? She clearly wasn't part of the unruly mob. Was how congresswoman dipshait responded appropriate? Its clear this is one congress person who doesn't care what the people have to say. They are there to represent us. If the cell phone call was so important,she should have had the decency to ask the lady asking the question to give her a moment then get back to her.

Who knows what her situation is. Maybe she has savings or investments and can afford health insurance. Maybe she thinks this plan is bad for America and is willing to take the risk. I don't know. But it is clear to me that many in congress are gonna do what they want, and don't care what we the people have to say about it even though all of the reputable poles show Americans are against the plans being put in front of us.

As for doing what they think is right even though it isn't popular, you could make the case that Bush did what he thought was right. How many here supported that?

Properly braced, ready for the pile on!

I'm reserving my judgement on whether you are reputable but I'm not holding my breath.



Why didn't we get to hear all of what she said? Oh yeah, the "unruly mob". The congresswoman's reaction isn't very smart but if she'd been in that room for long, I don't blame her. The best thing those loud people could have done is STFU and make the congresswoman look like a douchebag for ignoring the question.



She can keep what she has. What about that don't you understand?

LOL!!!
Hey thanks for the WSC stickers Todd. I will put them to good use.

These are perfect examples.

Vic, Jerry et al... when I say things like "keep an open mind"... it's NOT that I'm tryin' to force the 'liberal' point of view on you guys... I'm just tryin' to make you see how ridiculous these right-wing talking points are from a LOGICAL standpoint... NOT a partisan one!

WHAT would Obama and the Democrats possibly have to gain by advocating healthcare rationing and killing old people? They're potential voters after all. Most of this fringe lunatic bullsh!t makes absolutely NO sense at all!

Yet you guys on the right let your hatred of Obama and your mistrust of Democrats cloud your ability to think rationally?

I just do not get it?

4 Salt perhaps you don't think you are being partisan but you are trying to link me to the death panel argument. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else, or you think I am guilty by association. Go back and reread the thread, I did comment on rationing for the elderly, and posted the President's quote where he admitted it would happen. I also mentioned that I read the end of life counseling passage, but didn't make comment on that, so don't associate me with that. Like I said earlier in the thread the only real truth I see in this debate is that both sides are playing their little games trying to forward their agenda's.

That is the way I am seeing it as well, both sides are trying to sell their position and aren't exactly checking all the facts before they spew them, including the President with the comment yesterday that AARP has endorsed a plan. BTW, who is the idiot who planted the girl questioneer at Obama's town hall meeting? What a moronic thing to do, definitely doesn't help the Pres when it appears that questioners are being planted in the audience.

Most people do not have the time to sit down over a period of days or weeks and try and sift through a 3000 page proposal that isn't written in English because we have to actually work for a living. If Congress wants to get the public on board with some type of health care reform I would recommend that they keep it fairly simple and write it in plain English. Glad to see cocksucker has got the time and the aptitude to read 3000 pages of legalese, I have to find a way to generate funds so that we can keep the lights on.

Someone want to enlighten me as to why when I type "KayKay" I get cocksucker?

cocksucker

Wow! I think he must have pissed someone off.

Thats a little funny, just didn't want you to think that I was calling you a cocksucker, if I do I will spell it in Caps so you know I mean it.

K K I have tried to be polite to you through out. Not sure why you are such a cocksucker to me.

I love have the limp wristed left can use the "N" word and none of the pansy assed thumb suckers on the left care.

Where's KaiserD now?

The "3000" is a typo, should say "1000", my mistake.

Yes I have read legislation and it is like reading a zoning code or watching paint dry.

No public schools didn't fail me, on the contrary down here in University Place 20+ years ago they were good enough that college wasn't needed, no longer the case. I haven't read 3200 because I have been pretty busy trying to recover my business after AG Cuomo and Fannie Mae screwed me with their little HVCC agreement. Healthcare isn't quite on the top of my list, its a little below the mortgage payment, electricity, and water.

cocksucker-

that is such an inflammatory statement - have you forgotten all about Bush 1 and his kinder, gentler world vision? how 'bout those thousand points of light? LOL! BEEP!

late to the joke - if i type 'cocksucker' will it spell K K?

I don't care how you spell cocksucker! YAY!

Go to work, when I get back the computer wants to update, so I let it and by the time I reboot I get to read 10 more pages of cocksucker's expounding on the GOP's attributes and pointing how he can read volumns of mind numbing data like that is something to strive for....what's next, cocksucker....Dex?
I note that the aforementioned hasn't found any new friends as well, same old names he keeps calling...

cocksucker, what you suffer from can't be fixed with money. But then you already knew that, didn't you?

It's a bitch when your toolbox is empty, isn't it?

But I bet ingorance didnt keep him from having an opinion.

You just keep doing, son.

It's obvious that you've never been fully appreciated for all that you do.

Cross your feet, will you, cocksucker? We only have one nail left.

And it likewise is not necessary to point out what it is you manage to demonstrate as well, cocksucker. But you just don't get that do you, buddy? You are kind of a one-trick pony....pitiful, but hey, that's all you got, so it's OK. You are the poster child of "I'm OK, You're OK" Congratulations.

I answered you previously, and it didn't matter then, so it won't matter now.
Because you don't care what the answer is, in fact you care about nothing but yourself and think that by tearing at others, you gain something. You don't. I only spar with you because you are like a mosquito in the night.....just flat annoying.
Throw all of your darts, cocksucker.....they fly right by.
And when you resupply...pick up some more tools, will you?

I'm assuming cocksucker is the "limp wristed left" and I'd be the "pansy assed thumb sucker on the left"?

I didn't realize I was cocksucker's keeper. Besides that, he was quoting Atwater.

For what it's worth, I'm not a big fan of the word, though. <--- The self-hating liberal in me made me say that.

I got to the townhall meeting site at about 4 , I would estimate about 400 people outside the gate many with signs. The signs where interesting in the sense that the ones for the Dem health care plan had signs that where about 90% preprinted and the people with signs against the Dem plan were about 90% home made. One group against had set up a table with a mic and speaker(wasn't very loud) and the group "for" moved very close to the table and chanted catchy phrases so as to make what she had to say unhearable, some stood right in front of her and waved the signs in her face. I was impressed with Rick Larson and thought he presented his case well. I would estimate the crowd at 5 in the stadium was about 3,000. They were a few crazies on both "sides" but overall a respectful gathering.

Aunty-

in the early '70s there was a movie called "rollerball" with James Caan. the premise was that the corporations ran the world. oh how we laughed at such a ludicrous plot!

and now, just to keep the conversation on health care going, here's an article from my area - it represents so many great things i've been subjected to in this thread - the homeless, medical care, and veterans. please everybody, help sort this one out, show all your work and turn in your scratch paper at the end of class.

Man in coma after collapse in downtown Chico
By GREG WELTER - Staff Writer
Posted: 08/13/2009 12:00:00 AM PDT

CHICO -- A man who collapsed shortly before noon Wednesday at City Plaza is in a coma, but may have been spared from death by the actions of a Chico police officer, who was just yards away and immediately began CPR.

Officer David Bailey, assigned to bicycle patrol in the downtown area, said he had been talking with the man, Ed Brisson, 51, about 11:45 a.m. near the plaza fountain.

Bailey said Brisson was pushing a cart loaded with his belongings toward the corner of Sixth and Broadway streets when he suddenly fell to the ground.

Bailey was assisting him within seconds, administering CPR and calling for medical aid. Emergency medical crews continued life-saving efforts for several minutes before transporting Brisson by ambulance to Enloe Medical Center.

Bailey said that the man appeared to be in extreme distress, and that bubbles were coming from his mouth as he provided CPR. Other officers said the man didn't appear to respond to resuscitation efforts.

On Wednesday afternoon police said the man was alive, but in a coma.

Brisson, a regular visitor to the plaza, is considered a Chico area transient by police, who said they have had dozens of contacts with him over several years.

Police said his nickname on the street is "Ziggy." It's believed that Brisson, who served in the Marine Corps., has relatives in the Chico area.

A man visiting Chico from Merced said he knew Brisson from talking with him at the plaza. The man said Brisson always walked
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around with a canister of oxygen, and appeared to be in failing health.

Police suspect no foul play in connection with the man's medical emergency.

let's ASSUME he gets no VA assistance for the sake of stirring the pot. there is also no indication he is jewish or KK he's in a coma and sucking off the public teat. take it away.....

Another productive day for AntiM.

Yeah, sorry I couldn't compete. Had to resort to personal attacks. I know you relish playing the victim so I was just trying to oblige.

okay - the fun train has left the station...

I think it would be hilarious if a group of folks showed up in brown shirts with the new Pepsi logo on their arm bands.

Hmm... I bank a Pepsi Distributor..... Bet they have some stickers......

It would seem so...but then the funniest post on this board in a long time just crawled out from under a rock and implanted itself here...



Fish on...

Todd

Pot, meet kettle.

Nah, dissent and patriotism are among the few bipartisan attributes.

Dissent is patriotic...to the maximum.

Disruption and outright lies are not patriotic, nor are they American...they are for pansies who cannot win on the facts, so they lie to inflame the ignorant...they should all burn in Hell.

Fish on...

Todd

Oh not correct. Disruption & lies are and American tradition in politics. Look at writings of their times with Adams, Lincoln, Goldwater, McGovern being interesting or if you want a real treat Andrew Jackson. Not just the election but policies as they tried to govern of those that were elected. It is the most American tradition, such as it is, of traditions that continues to the present.

It is what it is. Get over it.

Katie Abrahms is Joe The Plumber

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_09xPF_9UjM

Sadly, I think she represents a lot of the angry people that are showing up "asking questions".

As she should. It is her right as a citizen.

One more time. Get over it.

okay, so getting back to having some fun, and this is TOTAL CHEESE for humor, Todd, if your artist girlfriend has mexican food, does that make her artsy-fartsy?

it's been a long day at work and not very fun, hope you at least smiled - fart humor never fails me........

Another citizen exercising her rights as eloquently as Katie Abrahms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

I'm down with people exercising their right to free speech...even if they are stupidly wrongheaded and live in a fantasy world...I also am down with Kaiser's exercise of his free speech to point out that she and Joe the Plumber couldn't ID a political issue or fact to save their lives...

Ahhh...the conservative base...such fertile ground to grow idiots.

Fish on...

Todd

At least Obama kept his promise and is keeping Lobbyists out of the hoopla....

I mean if you can't trust the big drug companies who can ya' trust?



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090813/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_health_care

"The new ad airing in a dozen states is being paid for by a new coalition called Americans for Stable Quality Care. Members of the group are Families USA, the Service Employees International Union, the drug lobby Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, the American Medical Association and the Federation of American Hospitals."

The fact that it's catching on ought to make you ashamed to be a Republican...they're lying, and you know it, and the lies are sticking.

What's an American Way debate when that's how it runs?

Making your voice heard is patriotic...parroting lies when you know they are lies is cowardly. Sending people out there to parrot those lies is cowardly.

Defending it is cowardly.

Can't win on the facts? Then come up with something other than "No!" as a plan, and put it out there for debate...

Fish on...

Todd

Ya just gotta admire Hank's tenacity!

The only problem though is that he is about as good at political prognostication as say... Dick Morris.

He's definitely willin' to go down with the ship...

Wonder what Obama and the Dems are lying about?

"This isn't socialized health care"

"This won't put private insurance companies out of business"

http://www.breitbart.tv/uncovered-video-...vate-insurance/

Think I will take him at his word and continue to oppose it.

Could that possibly be because the Hyde Amendment already makes federal funding of abortion in all but cases of rape and incest illegal Hank?

Nahhh....

Here are some more Obama lies concerning his healthcare plan.

Anyone remember the promises of negotiating reform on CSpan and making it bipartisan.

http://www.breitbart.tv/naked-emperor-ne...yhem-it-caused/

Wonder why he chose the backroom deal instead of sticking to his word. Is this his idea of change?

Yep, payback's a bitch. I'm not defending it, but it is so reminiscent of when shrub was in the whitehouse and the Rs controlled Congress. If I'd heard a few of you conservatives opposing the crap that the R whitehouse and Congress forced on us I might feel slightly sympathetic.

Frankly I am a bit concerned that we aren't going to get the best health care reform that good minds can develop because it's become more important to just pile on and keep the Rs marginalized, even if one of them happened to have a good idea. (Ever the philosopher, I know that a good idea doesn't care who has it.)

You say that some Rs have good health care reform ideas. I've only heard one of them last week, and I didn't like it. But if Rs have good health care reform ideas, where the hell were they during all those years they controlled Congress, not to mention the Whitehouse? Oh, that's right, when the Rs are in power, they favor the unsustainable status quo that makes CEOs uber rich and deny coverage to policyholder's legitimate claims. Maybe there are valid reasons why Ds are reluctant to listen to anything Rs have to say on the subject.

Sg

KK...I went to bed after waiting for a response and not getting one. I see now that you were putting together a lengthy piece. And a rather well put together one at that. If you had excluded the slams it would have been better, but still all in all, not bad.
You are correct in stating that I have never stated much of substance concerning politics......I don't like politics. Apparently you think that everyone should be as into it as you are....now wouldn't that be pathetic? I recall you referring to political dedication as "patriotic". Whew......that's a reach for me. Seems to me that most politicians I have known are about the most dysfunctional people around.
I get much more enjoyment out of going out to the garden and picking peas, carrots, beans, lettuce, and blueberries as I did earlier, than bantering with you. Petting the dogs, watching the bees, working on my boats, and countless other things all beat your company. The only reason I bother jumping in your face is to momentarily upset your little world of "look how great I am and how little you are". You are so damn full of yourself that you undermine what you have to offer. Think about it. It's what I have been referring to when I suggested that you find some new tools. It's hard to see you through the pile of garbage you toss. I'd hate to live in your head....must be awful loud and scary in there.
Peace. Out

Hank, so long as the Republican leaders, and the Republican followers, are staying silent while the Repubs and their hired hands are spouting about...

1. Obama isn't an American, and

2. The Death Panel will kill all Americans over 71...

...then I think ignoring R's is not only good policy, it's damn good for America.

The only thing better would be if Man-on-Dog actually ran for President...with Bachmann or Palin as running mate...if the R's didn't clamp down on any possible combination involving any one of those three, then they not only deserve every single thing they're getting, but a lot more that will come later.

Hank, how is it "ignoring R's" when the R's aren't actually saying anything? When the R's version of the bipartisanship they keep clamoring for is to either do absolutely nothing, or spread lies about the Death Panel, then what exactly should the other 70% of us be listening to?

If the R's had anything useful to say, we'd listen...as it is, when Obama praised Grassley for being a reasonable Republican, one who was willing to sit down and actually talk about the content of the possible health reform bills, the next day Grassley had to go out and repeat the Death Panel Talking Point before he lost his "base"...the ignorant racist loudmouths who would sell their own mothers down the river before ever admitting that a Democrat, a black one at that, could possibly have a good idea.

Why listen? We have the votes, and if the R's don't want to play ball...well, to put it bluntly, fuckem.

They not only have very little of substance, and even less of use to say, but it's how they ran our country into the ground for the past eight years...they clearly can't be trusted with anything beyond parroting talking points and creating resolutions to make Obama apologize.

Fish on...

Todd

This thread is f'n killing me.

I'm telling you, you can't f'n PAY for comedy like this sh!t and here we are getting it for FREE!!

We got sand, we got chapped asses, we got hurt butts, I'm telling you this is why the Dark Side of PP is no place for the weak of heart or the easily offended.

Back to work you f'n Communists, Liberal Scumbags, Conservative Assbandits, lefty whackjobs, righty Limbaugh-lovers, and everyone in between.

It bet 4 years of lifespan has been lost by people frothing at the mouth in this thread. The health-care thread.

Little on the ironic side, don't you think?

I have tried to email Rick Larson 6 times over the last 2 days and my email is not accepted because his box is two full. This is the email that I am trying to send


Rep. Larsen, I want to thank you for the opportunity to attend the town hall meeting in Everett. I wasn’t fortunate enough to be called on to ask a question so I will pose it here. First a short statement and then a question that only requires a yes or no answer. A young man close by brought up his civics class from high school and it got me to thinking about my high school government class from 1969. I was taught that the representative that I vote for is my representative to the government and the feeling that I have from both parties now is that they represent the government to me. My question is if you were to find out that a majority of your constituents were against the healthcare plan would you still vote for it?

Thank you Richard Hunt

Let me answer that....he won't ...of course he would.

Hank's argument concerning cost is legit in my mind.
Without being an insurance guru, my understanding is that an insurance company existance is based on profit. This appears to me to mean that if it were not for forced participants the companies would all fail. The reason is simple. If all particiapants in the health insurance pot needed health care and USED it, the health care providers would quickly be bankrupt. In order for insurance to be viable, most participants MUST NOT collect on it, at least not in cost amounts that exceed their contributions. Make sense? Insurance is not a "coupon" for savings, it's a bet that you will not collect (from the insurance carrier's point of view).

With baby boomers very soon, if not already, in the "I'm falling apart" catagory, they present a huge (if not unsurmountable) problem for insurance companies. So if all of those old bastards (myself included) jump on the insurance O train, guess who will be picking up the tab?...you young, healthy, and very gullible people who have litte to no present need for insurance...and even that, my friends, can only be a viable IF you participate... which means you will have to be forced to do so. My bet is that not enough healthy youngsters will willingly kick into the insurance pot when there are new reels and rods to buy. I know I went for many years with no insurance. I was betting, albeit foolishly, that I wouldn't need it. As it turned out, I was mostly right and saved thousands in insurance premiums. Was that wise? No. I was betting with others well being in the pot, and that is pretty much a "Screw You" thing to do.

So who has the most to gain? Old uninsured people. Mark, Jake, will you please pay my hospital bills as my old ass slowly falls apart? You will? Wow! I owe you, guys! Oh, and while you are at it, would you mind picking up that annoying national deficit tab, too? Damn, you guys are the best!

Looks like us old codgers have pulled the wool over them stupid kids' eyes again.

A new sig line possibility......"Beware of politicians bearing gifts"

...and just to make it more ironic, the pretty face of the Republican Party...and pretty face is all it is...ex-Gov. Palin fully endorsed end of life counseling for Alaskans...'course, she didn't call it a "Death Panel" back then...

It's a perfectly good idea, one that virtually everyone supports when it is explained for what it is, and a provision that was not only written by a Republican, but very similar to a provision in Alaska that Gov. Palin fully supported and endorsed back then.

When it's endorsed by a black Democrat, though, all bets are off...now it's a Death Panel, and that lie is not only being spread by the talking points handed out by the RNC for disruption at town hall meetings, but being spread by some of the very Republicans who supported it before.

Kinda like the Bridge to Nowhere...supported for political reasons, then not supported...for political reasons...and there's your Republican playbook in a nutshell.

Oppose whatever the Prez wants, at all costs, for no reason other than to oppose it...if we had a Republican Prez right now, The Newt, Palin, and the loudmouth radio shock jocks would be trumpeting it as the second Coming itself...

Liars and sumbitches, all of 'em, and until they stop purposely spreading lies for one reason and one reason alone..."Waterloo"...then they have no credibility at all, and should be treated...ignored...as such.

Fish on...

Todd

Bravo! Bravo! 9.8 A near perfect execution of the race-card! If you point your toes a bit more it would be a perfect 10!

All of this bull [censored] began with the recognized need for "affordable" healthcare. It has now become a issue of health insurance for all, whether you want it or not. As I read the house bill all I see is the increased roll of the federal government in the health care business.

Supporters seem to believe that if passed they will receive free health care.
I don't think that is going to happen. At least I haven't found it in the bill.

WHAT IS AFFORDABLE?

you can say cocksucker but not [censored]?

Anyone that believes they'll get FREE healthcare from ANYONE is strongly mistaken.

Newsweek article on some common healthcare myths... something for each "side" to chew on.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/211981

My god this post is getting more painful by the moment. How can anyone including the all informed cocksucker himself have any idea what is or is not in this "bill". The damn thing is not written yet. No final product!. Nothing has been completely dropped or added! So quit pissing down all our backs and telling us it is raining all informed.
Right now the best we can do is guess. We all know that last minute things will be added to get this vote and dropped to get that one. One thing we can be sure of is that all this bitching is just that bitching. the only other thing we can all know is that everyone that makes these statements about how great or horrible it will be is full of crap(incuding the pres, rep leadership and dem leadership).
When they promise everything at no cost.......B.S. When they promise unending cost and no return.......B.S.(well most of the time). It is the wieght of cost to benefit we should be looking at not "death panels" or whatever the latest inflamatory statement is.

Aunty, your avitar pic is damn funny!

great, another personal attack

With this great new healthcare plan I wonder if the Prez and Congress are going to switch plans. Or are they exempt??

Yup, they are exempt. The Cadillac plan is what they are on. If this is such a great deal, all they have to do is put EVERYONE in congress and the White House on it and I will quit bitchin about it. That would be kind of like leadership and they aren't gonna do that.

Rick Larsen was asked that and he said just like you we get to keep our health care plan if we want.

Did anyone ask him about Death Panels, or is that finally off the table at the meetings?

Fish on...

Todd

How many Seniors were there carryin' signs that said "Keep the government outta my Medicare" too Jerry?

I thought you lived in Mill Creek by the way?

To be in Larsen's district, you must live north of Silver Lake?

I live just south of Silver Lake, northwest of Mill Creek. He spoke a little about counseling every 5 years after 65 or whenever your health changed .

"Let's talk about cost for a few pages now.... "

half hour and no calculations coming forth....yoooo hoooo....Mr. I-know-the-plan.....got some figures for us?

Maybe I can help....it's to be financed ala Robin Hood....just like the rest of this out-of-this-world spending. Everything will balance if we just keep taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

I'll guarantee that it won't be financed by the participants, at least not in full......unless the enrollment is mandatory....There are only two ways it can work, and if enrollment ISN'T mandatory, then the money will be garnished from every swinging dick that has a job, because the cost of actually getting the sick/poor population healthy, or even reasonably so, would be astronomical.

Maybe we should ask Darcy....she has a degree, you know....in economics.....from Harvard.

Let's hear those numbers.....or how about at least a method of balancing this new found dream. This new math really has me confused.

"because the cost of actually getting the sick/poor population healthy, or even reasonably so, would be astronomical."


So, what is you answer to the sick, poor population?
Get a job?
Get well and then get a job?
Or is it..

maybe you should just take the pain killer?

You are absolutely right Hank.

I'm curious though... what major piece of Republican legislation concerning the very well-being of so many average Americans have the Dems applied such a concerted effort of lies and unadulterated hate-mongering to defeat... in say, the last hundred years?

Slab - KK's style may be a bit direct and abrasive to those on the right who don't do much thinkin' for themselves. But all of that aside... what exactly do you think he's been wrong about and where is your evidence to prove it?

Dan,

I concur,as I'm more than a touch reticent to quantify someone with both their hands out,in the EXPECTATION of receiving handouts...as being my voice of "reason".

Of course I can wipe my own ass too,so that puts me light years ahead of the respective "curve" and lands me once again in the minority.

I've longed figured that the more bitching moaners there are in this World,the easier things go my way. It's a nice arrangement.

At least since Ronald Rogain began, that's an easy answer...none...not because they couldn't, nor because they wouldn't...but because they don't do "well-being of average American" legislation...not their schtick.

Fish on...

Todd

Lookey there...we have something in common.

"Bitching moaners" tend to spend too much time bitching and moaning rather than enjoying life...and enjoying life is, well, something I enjoy.

Fish on...

Todd

Why not just look at every other industralized nation and pay for it the same way they do. And before everyone starts whining about more taxes, consider this:

10 countries with socialized healthcare pay lower overall taxes (including social security) than the US (married employee with two children earning a $91,000 salary) according to Mercer, an international consulting firm.

Well, you gotta admit, that's pretty funny right there.

Fish on...

Todd

Yeah, but they're socialists...or are they Islamo-fascists? Committed treason?

I can't keep all the RWWJ labels straight on a Friday night...

Fish on...

Todd

Kill 9 out of every 10 Lawyers,cease the flood of Immigrant Welches,make folks accountable and they'll either sink or swim.

I'm more than a whole lot happy to pay my share and I find it curious that I'm in the minority for the train of thought.

Though my pride does keep me from many things that are seemingly in vogue. I'm good with that.

Speaking of Steve Larsen from earlier, I just heard a sound bite attrtibuted to his Town Hall meeting:

"I have facts on my side; you have Glenn Beck."

Too funny.

Many here,are "educated" beyond their intelligence.

Classic.

KK...you are such a class act. Have I seen your best stuff? Because if I have, you are lacking, my friend.

What is it you said? Answer the question, that's it. Well? Answer the question, KK. HOW is the financing going to work for "the plan"? I realize you can't give the hard figures, but that is not what I'm asking, is it?

My guess is that if I choose to NOT participate in the gr8 O give away, that I'll be paying for it as well as my own coverage, BECAUSE it won't fly by itself now will it?

Oh that's right you had to run away.....that's OK...try to ignore the question when you get back and I'll just ask it again.

BTW, I hadn't left the scene. I was outside, started a campfire and sat with my wife with a cup of coffee watching a coyote play with one of our dogs. It really was pretty cool. The coyote would come out of the bushes into the field and just sit there waiting for the dog to come over. While the dog barked, the tail never quit wagging. The two never touched noses, but were not far apart...one in the bushes and one in the field. This went on for at least a half hour, involving a half dozen encounters. I get the feeling that my dog and this coyote know each other as I have seen the dog more than once run after an unknown entity with her tail wagging. Any way, that's what I was doing....too bad you missed it. Something about "living" in all that, you know?

Ah, back to the present.
4Salt...it's not about what KK says when he's spouting political history....the man's a freaking encyclopedia. I'll give him his due on that. It's more about what he doesn't say, which equates to lying by omission....and the method in which he delivers his "goods". Do you think I'm wrong about the way government insurance will have to be paid for? He can't refute it, so he tries to paint me as an intellectual moron because I'm not interested in the same stuff he is, and I've asked a question for which he has no acceptable answer. Lame. How can you not get that?

The name calling, "death panel" focus, accusations......all really poor ways to sell a point, IMO.

Run KK, run.....you'll be right there when you get there. And I'll be right here when you get back.

I received an email forwarded from a friend of mine last week that had commentary from former Senator Fred Thompson (yes – the actor/senator and former presidential candidate). Except for the content, it was identical to emails I fielded during the campaign that spread FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) about Obama the candidate. They used the time spread between when they’d release a rumor (plausible or not) and when it’d gets debunked to sow seeds of doubt.

Now – they’re at it again!

Sure there are the crazy things like Sarah Palin’s Death Panel and the town hall staged responses, etc… But then there are the seemingly plausible commentaries that sound just true enough and cite enough passages in legislation that they must at least be a little true and a little disconcerting.

What I/we (the we being all Americans) need you to do:

1) Go to the white house website where they straighten out what’s going on and call out some of the most egregious myths/rumors being spread: http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/. That will equip you to at least respond to some of the crap we have in this thread.

2) Send this website out to your email list, put it as your Facebook status, tweet about it .

3) When you receive any of these horrendous emails, reply to the person who sent you the email with the URL – but also send it to all of the other email addresses that they invariably left in the email string.

Here are the 3 principles Obama has stated he believes a House & Senate bill must contain/do:

· reduce costs
· guarantee choice
· make quality health care affordable for all


Oh – and as a preview to the next big crisis that needs to be solved, all I can say is – read Tony Wagner’s the Global Achievement Gap.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/

THE GWEAT AND TEWWIBLE OZ HAS SPOKEN!!!!!! Oh, wait thats the other guy thats full of himself.

Words of wisdom from a guy that changes Ted Nugent's depends.

Very true....I have no idea why them lyin' scum suckin' democraps would need to plant a fake doctor at a townhall...


http://www.thebigfeedblog.com/2009/08/bustedagain-democrats-caught-planting.html


In an e-mail to the Chronicle on Thursday morning, Mayer confirmed she is not a licensed physician.

"I have been advised to refrain from making any further statements," she said.

In the initial story about the event, the Chronicle reported that she was a doctor based on her claim at the meeting.

Today, Jackson Lee denied knowing Mayer and said she was not planted as a friendly voice in the crowd.

Horswell's story, time-stamped at of 10:46 a.m. CT as of the time of this post (saved here at my host for future reference) has the same URL to which Patterico linked, meaning that Horswell's current renditon has effectively flushed all previous versions down the Chron's memory hole.

Horswell still hasn't told readers that Mayer was an Obama delegate. Patterico commenter "mike in houston" reports direct e-mail evidence from Horswell that the Chron reporter has known this from the very beginning of this sordid episode and has chosen not to disclose. Mayer's status as a delegate, along with additional "coincidences" reported at LoneStarTimes.com, would tend to severely if not fatally dent the credibility of Jackson Lee's claim not to know her -- even beyond the hug picture with Mayer and Lee the Chron has already published.

All the LWWJs led by Captain Todd And the Kotex Kid really need to take a step back and listen to what the lefty talk show hosts are spewing. Rhandi Rhodes, the conspiracy queen, Mike Malloy, the satan worshipper and foul mouth king of all time, even Rachael Maddow, least inflammatory of the bunch came up with this prize winning deduction today. North Carolina took a poll of right wingers. 74% were "unsure" of where Obama was born. 12% of these did not know Hawaii was a state. Out of this she deduced that 86% of right wingers deny Barrack is a citizen and they also denied the "existence" of Hawaii. Talk about stretching the truth! I can't begin to count the number of people who asked when booking a trip to our lodge in Alaska, if they needed a visa. No I didn't ask their political affiliation. I just took their credit cards. Left or right I didn't care.

As far as where Bammy was born? My daughter was born in Okinawa in a military hospital while I was serving there in the 60s. Officers were flying their wives to Guam so they could claim natural born citizenship. We had to prove her citizenship to get back into the US at Travis AFB a year later. She has since had to prove her birth to the State of California so she could get her CDL. Ahhh the land of fruits, nuts and Pelosi! The most liberal State in the US outside the State of Portland and even they can't get it right!
My daughter has since kept a file of her birth records just in case it comes up again. But Bammy? No we are just supposed to take his word for it. I mean he is important and all that right? Besides he gets to play the race card.

Rhodes laughs at silly things like end of life counseling questions by the right. But then she swears she knows for a fact that the Bush family are all pedophiles and had little boys brought to the White House for their pleasure! What kind of sick fawks are these left wing talk show people who now heap ridicule on legitimate questions and protests by right wingers at town hall meetings?

So go ahead and blame Rush, Hannity, Savage and Coulter. Then get yoru own house in order!

Damn Bush and those Republicans! Just got a letter today from PERS. Our supplemental medicare ins. premiums will be going up because Medicare is paying less! Oh wait! Bush is gone! Who could it be cutting Medicare?

Also for those who think Medicare is a government run plan. Guess again! Medicare turns over all the money to private insurance companies who then operate the supplemental programs. And because the gov. is cutting funds those dastardly private companies are going to have to raise rates again!

They're already running themselves in circles attacking a public option, and have found themselves in the unenviable position of attacking it by saying how great it works in other contexts...it will become clear that that's what they're doing, but I'm not so sure they even have the wherewithall to see that they are doing exactly that at this point.

Fish on...

Todd

and another thing, how does the POTUS get off on touring the country on his political campaign on our dime?

'spool,

Given your track record,I find it far from suprising that your Trump Card is a fascination of Ted Nugent's ass.

Though you are at the mercy of your "intelligence"...which is more than punishment enough.

Coming from a wingnut chickenhawk wannabe ballwaher, I'll take it as a compliment.

Again...feel free to refrain iterations(s) of your copious shortcomings,up to and including comprehension.

For conversation Ted is a whopping 60yrs old.

Now? You just wake up, or something?

Hey KK! Did you ever figure out how to pay for the overhaul? I know you missed my input, but I actually wrote quite a piece last night and then as I was finishing up, I accidentally hit the esc key instead of 1....all gone. I just closed up the lap top and went back to bed. Been too busy this morning to play, but I have a few minutes now....so........
Good to see your self-inflated ass-kissing self! How ya been? Where'd you run off to?
Oh, never mind....some undisclosed location, that's right.
So, you little puke, I see how your messiah, in a Boseman, Mt. moment of clarity, admitted that has no clue how the plan is to be financed. So I ask you, how could I expect your pitiful self to know? Boy, was I out of bounds. You are off the hook..

Here's a quote from the Colorado town holler meeting, "The biggest rival of our deficit and debt is health care."
This sounds to me like the Oman (or is it omen?) would like very much to leech some of the profits off private health care providers and finance his "a toothbrush for everyone" plan.

I think I now understand why this guy is so popular....he has no clue how to pay for it, he only knows he wants it, and he's gonna get it, and if he can't steal it from someone else, he's gonna use my/your money.

Does this sound remotely familiar? Perhaps you know of someone who is upside down in their mortgage? or someone who just picked up a new clunker-buster?

Anyway, good to have you back, HoneyPot. Look both ways when you cross the street, now. Wouldn't want to end your pathetic life here as someone's hood ornament.

Let's see a pic of your countenance.

Laffin'

Limp Stick, is chickenhawk one word or two?

Good call to refrain your mug upon anything.

Pardon my doing for myself,while I marvel at your panhandling...as a comedic relief.

"Stupid" is a single word,which capably shadows your abilities...by a huge margin of error.

Congratulations?

How about a picture if you on active duty?

How about citing a pic in which I wasn't active...then frost it with your "best".

Laffin'

All I know is that regardless what he says about folks having a choice in plans....is bull.

Here's why.

Your "choice" will very soon become so one-sided that there will no longer be a viable option other than the socialized version of health plan because of lost profits to private insurance (especially if the siphoning Savior decides to pillage the private sector treasure boxes), which leads to higher premiums, which leads to lost numbers of people in the program, which leads to less coverage/more cost.

The upside of this SNAFU is that it may just cause enough dissention in the ranks that it may get more hammered up than hammered out.

If the private insurance companies can't compete, as you're implying, then you make the case for single payer options better than most...

Fish on...

Todd

Should your paltry Life revolve around the fact that I do not(will not),tap a space in or around a comma...then I reckon that I yet again fulfill you upon numerous levels.

Thank me later.

It's how I roll.

Todd, perhaps you missed the part about financing the socialized version with the profits from the private version.......How is that competition?

A bit like you and I going fishing, but you only get as many hooks as I am willing to give you.

I could put red/blue frosting on a piece of shitt,toss it across the lawn and you'd return it with tail wagging...thinking you'd done something positive.

KK, I'm thinking you just can't afford insurance, or won't spend the money, and now want someone else to pick up as much of your bills as possible.
So you trot around singing the praises of a system that you want for your own selfish reasons, but present it as "a boon to mankind".
I get it that small business' has a helluva time providing health insurance for their employees.
And yes, I understand risk pools. I was never under any kind of impression that the "program" was free to all.....some, but not all. The "some" may be (likely ARE) many. Many free participants.....want to bet? Many free, broke, badly needing medical attention, participants. Risk pools are made up of normal, not needy, participants. Let me say that one more time.....Risk pools are made up of normal, NOT NEEDY, participants.

And just a tip....I am not your student, kid, or even friend, so don't bother with the "class" questions, you little creep. This also is not your site, or even your thread, so your words are just that.... your words.
If my questions and comments make you uncomfortable to the point that you cannot clearly respond, whose problem is that?

You're kinda like the dizzy dope with metal all over/in his/her face.....so much so, that you can't see the person through the mine. I've blown off the persona you've projected for some time, giving you a chance to "come around".......waste of time on my part. While you are without a doubt a good source for information that falls into the little world where you preside, beyond that....pathetic.

I ain't going away....you deserve me.

The way it will be "financing the socialized version with the profits from the private version" is just this: The reason it will be financed with the private version's profit is because those paying the ridiculously exorbiant prices the private version charges won't be paying it anymore...

It's the most pure definition of "competition"...you're going to pay for it, and you pay who gives you the best deal...if the private version doesn't give you a good deal, then you don't give them your money...and they lose profits.

It's called "adapt or die"...which might be the most apt three word definition for the mythical "free market" than any other...

Fish on...

Todd

What I'd like to know is if the dems are so aggresive to get this whole health care bill passed, are they then going to make the government give up there silver lined health care to go with the plan they say is best for all americans?

Maybe they are in a class far beyond the civilians who are schediled to pay for it.

Anyone who fancies themself as being "aggresive" and chastising those who are "schediled",is in dire straits on more than one level...despite the repugnance of the government giving up "there" benefits.

Which is why Lion's still eat their young(and rightfully so).

Todd, it boils down to this. You think it's going to be a good deal. I don't. I'm convinced that I and most average working stiffs who pay for medical/dental insurance presently will be paying more, not less for the same coverage. I don't see how it can be otherwise. if the "new plan" picks up the indigents.

Have you thought about how long you will wait for an appointment with the sudden influx of new patients? Could truly be an "adapt or die" situation.

Before KK jumps on the moral highground to play King of the Hill, I'm not rejecting the idea of caring for the poor (never have...despite the KK version), but I have huge doubts that this "goodie" is going to be anything at all like it's being pumped up to be.

As far as thinking goes, KK.....you really should give it go sometime. I don't recall an original thought from you......just parroting what you read is not thinking.....do you suppose I read or heard somewhere the idea of taking profits from the private side to pay for services on the public side? I have no idea whether or not that is the plan, but it seems to me that it might be, based on Odudes statements. If you had gleened that from his gab, I didn't hear you mention it. Why? It wasn't printed somewhere? Or you were just waiting for the right moment? Timing is everything, right?

KK is THE epitome of a plagiarizing brainless lapdog.

Pretty damned funny.

This must have been the straw that broke the Sticks back.....

I bet if BS was a heavy contributor (other than his brutal honesty) to this board he'd still be here .

Mf

big stick talks kinda funny....but he makes me laugh

So do you......

if he talks like he writes, I bet he hears a whole lot of, "Huh??" Colorful doesn't even scratch the surface of his ability with words. Like him or not, his prowess is stunning, IMO.

http://blog.mlive.com/cns/2008/03/medicaid_fraud_victimizes_publ.html

http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/k...t.90ca0b38.html

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-57614529.html

About 100 more articles

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...mp;oq=&aqi=


I didnt find the recent news item regarding a high school dropout, who scammed the system for more than 1 million dollars, setting a new record in fraud. They apparently have a tendency to pay without verifying the information.

This is unlike Cash for clunkers, who are way behind in making payments to dealers. Some dealers are considering dumping the program.

Any accuracy to the statement that medicare is going to be broke in about eight years?

when I'm 64

Yep.

Well the flag the fishy stuff site is gone now . can't wait for the next one