Turning Point?

Is this horrible tragedy a possible turning point in how we as americans view guns? I am in Canada and I have been watching the coverage of that terrible event in Newton Conneticut on both Canadian and U.S. news.

Tonight the Canadian reporters on the scene were really questioning the U.S percieved love of guns and asking will this tragedy change the U.S. minds on guns.

Why people like this Ahole killed so many children and others is a complex social issue without easy answers. It comes on the heals of other mass shootings; even today three were killed in a hospital in the S.E.

The low hanging fruit on this complex issue is to ban assault/high capacity weapons. It seems the apparent first and easy step, but is it the right one? Will it make a difference?

Conneticut has farily strict gun laws, but yet almost any gun can be purchased. The shooters mother bought the guns legally after a long process, but yet the guns were available to her son who couldn't buy a gun. Once a gun is in private ownership, no matter the background checks etc, it can end up in anyone's hands.

So what do you all think? Will this tragedy be a turning point in our culture when it comes to guns?

May God take all of those killed into his loving arms and may God's peace rest on the families who have lost their loved ones and for all who mourn for them.

Knee jerk reaction almost guarantees the gun banners will get some
satisfactin. It won't stop man from killing his fellow man and it may
just make it easier for the psychopaths to victimize the general
populace.
Next it will be ala Scotland, ban knives.
Cain used a rock.
When do the laws address the misfits, sociopaths and pschotically dangerous members of our society?
Once upon a time we incarcerated the criminally insane.
Now it seems, they are on the streets and in private homes.
Perhaps every Freshman, to be admitted to secondary
schools, needs to be psychologically profiled.
Trouble is, who does the profiling and who pays for it?

Our government has failed the metally ill as far as treatment goes. They are given more freedoms under the guise of a kinder and gentler world order, and as a result the body count rises.

While the diagnosis of mental illness would not have stopped every one of these mass murderers, it would have likely stopped this person, and Isaac Zamora, and a number of others like the asshole in Colorado who dressed up like the Joker. Many more people would be alive today.

The focus needs to be upon the people who have commited these crimes, and what was the issue that lead them there. They can truly pick any tool, like David Koresh did in picking the bible and fire, as the method in which they bring many people to their deaths, or Jim Jones and Kool-aid. However, people would rather focus on the tool, and not the person.

Similarly to how TSA and the Border Patrol are not allowed allowed to profile on specific individuals who may be in violation of immigration laws or present an inherrant threat to the public at large, the degradation of our mental healthcare system allows the same dumbing down of protection to the public at large. Again, the system does not allow us to focus on the individual, so they focus on the tool. (Shoes, laptop, belt, gun, etc.)

My heart has been heavy since I first saw the news on Friday. Gave my boys a big hug when I got home, and we had a very uncomfortable talk about personal security, but it had to happen. I'm choosing to focus on my boys this weekend.

take for example those crazy arabs and thier rock throwings. why dont thier goverments make it more difficult to get rocks? they should just outlaw rock gathering all together!

i don't own a gun, i don't condem others who do. making it tougher for gun purchases will in no way stem these sorts. or make these hidious acts go away. . .

China has had quite a few attacks on schools and school children in a society that doesn't allow its citizens guns. The attackers have used knives, axes, hammers, etc to carry out these attacks.

Dogfish has hit this on the head, it isn't a gun issue, it is a mental health issue and how we choose to deal with mental illnesses in this country. We cannot cure most mental health issues just as we cannot cure sexual predators.

I am starting to wonder if our 24-7 coverage of these attacks and the media airing these perpetrators names for the world to know doesn't perpetuate the continued escalation of these types of attacks. I tend to think that these people crave a one big last stand with lots of media coverage to show the world who they are and we give it to them. The networks quit showing knuckleheads running onto sporting fields so not to glorify that type of behavior and it has worked. There has to be a way to report the event without giving the perp his day in the limelight.

I get the argument against guns, though.
While there are as many ways to kill people as one's imagination can dream up......home made bombs could do a lot a damage quickly, for instance. The issue is how "quickly" the death/injury total can mount with semi-autos with large magazines.

As a side note, I noticed in one article (maybe more) that the teachers had their students huddle in a corner........

Sounds like some proper training on how to minimize damage is necessary......gathering in tight groups is NOT how to keep kids safe.

As I understand it, they huddled in a corner of a locked room. We have training on "Rogue Shooter" annually. We are trained to remove our staff/patients from the facility if possible, if not move them to a room (with no windows if possible) and lock the door.
What did you expect the teachers to do when they were already in their class rooms? Maybe you would have them just open the door and tell the kids to run like crazy?

It's simple....it's not the guns, the knives, the rocks or the airplanes that kill people, it's the whackos behind them!!!

A news black out on the killings. With the frickin' talking heads trying to out do each other in depth descriptions on how the latest killing spree stacks up the top 10 list is just sick. You know some 20 something kid is in their mother's basement wacking off and planning how to make it to the top as they watch the tube's latest story about the tragedy.

Arm the teachers (or at least the security on grounds) so they could shoot back.

So you think the best option would have been to have the teacher just open the doors and tell the kids 'Run, you are on your own"? I hope you are joking.
Most of the training for an "Active Shooter" talks about sheltering in place vice just running into the unknown.

We are a nation that attempts to remedy the symptom and ignore the problem. Most people all emotional about this don't even know that an equal number of people die every week in DUI wrecks. 68% of our population admits to driving after too many drinks when surveyed. They happen in smaller numbers so we seemed resigned to accept it.

We have the best health care system in the world . We also have a constitution that conflicts with our desire to some how use that system to stop the crazies. If you want that be prepared to cede x amount of your individual liberty to the govt.
involuntary commitment laws give the crazies the same rights as the sane.

Are social outcasts made or are they born, if made what is your role in that process?

This will pass people will forget and then it will happen again nothing will change because at the end of the day it is a price we pay when the pendulum of freedom swings the other way.

hard to add or take away from that. very accurate!

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html

20 per day.

Without reading all the responses in this thread...which I will later, probably tomorrow...you'll get two responses from the most vocal in the country:

First, ban a lot more guns/types of gun than is probably necessary...or, if only every single person in that elementary school was armed, too, then they could have shot the asshole, and that the problem is too many regulations, not too many guns.

Fish on...

Todd

CT and NJ have some of the most restrictive laws re: guns.

still cant believe what went down.
Can we wait a few days before we make it political.
just askin?

Never let a crisis go to waste

I totally agree. I also made a point of not interjecting politics into my post.

Perhaps you could be more specific in who you respond too. Thanks.

I believe you meant to respond to Todd in you last plea/post.

Well, since you found it necessary to say twice, maybe you should be asking yourself, "How difficult was it for the gunman to kill all those people?" If the answer is, "It was very easy." then perhaps the present day protection methods are inadequate......er.......possibly deadly in themselves.

And, yes, running to a predetermined safe place would make the darling little targets harder to hit. Of course the way to keep the damage to the absolute minimum when the firing takes place is to rush the gunman as a unit.....put him/her down and kill him/her if necessary.....swallow your fukn fear and do it.....for the kids.

Yes Mike, Hopefully it is a turning point where we look at the real reasons behind these incidents. Starting with Mental health and psychoactive drug use.

Lanza didnt obey 5 or 6 laws which were designed to prevent him from breaking an entering to a school with stolen firearms and committing murder. New laws wont stop the next guy either. Perhaps the right type of care and limiting their use of drugs which make them apathetic to suicide and murder will stop the next guy.

Unfortunately those who support gun rights the most also support cutting funding for anything at all like mental health treatment, and prefer to either send them to jail after they commit a crime (and then blame it on something else), or hope that an eight year old had been packing heat and drew down on him and shot him dead before he killed anyone.

Fish on...

Todd

Yes, it will be a turning point to some degree. I suspect we'll see some additional restrictions on number of rounds a magazine can hold.

A couple of other points though. Over the years, I've noticed that most of the hardcore pro-gun citizens are conservative and favor smaller government and less government-funded programs. Yet, these are the same people that constantly say "It is the people, not the guns". Since mental health seems to play a roll in many of these shootings, those pro-gun conservatives are going to HAVE to start favoring additional funding for mental health.

Another thing that I think will happen is we'll take more steps towards bankrupting ourselves by over-securing everything from malls to schools to movie theaters. Just like after 9/11, the fear is going to capture the public and we're going to spend a bunch of money we don't have for a bunch of security theater that won't protect anyone from anything.

"Since mental health seems to play a roll in many of these shootings, those pro-gun conservatives are going to HAVE to start favoring additional funding for mental health."


I don't know why that is only an issue with pro-gun conservatives.....you must think that anti-gun liberals would gladly fund the additional cost of treating mental illnesses?

But other than that piece of nitwittery I must say.....
Dammit.......I agree with AP.......

now I have to go shoot myself .....

(stfu Toddler)

The Fear Industry (Security, Guns, Ammo, the NRA) would not only be OK with this, but are already lining up their lobbyists to do exactly this.

Fish on...

Todd

Did it take the off duty deputy 30 rounds?

The only thing that could be changed is the involuntary commitment laws and I do not see that happening. Even if they did and you could hold someone until they were deemed better once they get out they stop taken their drugs and the ride starts all over again.

I seem to remember something about a building blowing up in OK city. They were sane and did not use guns . How about suicide bombers . There are 1000s of ways to kill many people at once , the only thing you need is the motivation. I think it scares people that there is no real solution. Your kids are safer in school than they are in your car .

LOL WHAT!!??

you need to do some research on McVeigh and then rethink your assesment on the "sane" remark...

McVeigh was as crazy as they come...

As I said above, it will serve as no turning point, just an opportunity to continue saying, and doing, exactly the same thing...only more of it.

From the right wing fruit loops you will always hear that it's a lack of guns, and too many gun regulations, that cause gun violence. More guns is always the answer.

From the left wing fruit loops you will hear that all guns need to be banned.

What will change? Nothing.

Fish on...

Todd

who are these lefties who want to ban "all" guns?

There really aren't any, topwater...it's a straw man argument that the right wing fruit loops like to use to justify their "more guns is always the answer" stance.

It's similar to their stance on taxes...a tax break is the answer to every single question regarding virtually anything other than guns.

Economy sucks? Tax breaks!

Economy is great? Tax breaks!

Same difference, only with guns.

Hank, I don't know what the answer is...but I know this: what we are doing now does not work, and it only gets worse, every single day.

Fish on...

Todd

Dhooky post your sources?

Actually all crime is at an all time low and violent crime is even lower. How is that worse? Parents are more likely to kill their kids than strangers btw. Maybe we should ban parents or require mental evaluations before parenting? The only thing that will happen is we will have an excess of people running around screaming that we need to change something to make ourselves feel better about this. You can't make your self feel better about this it just flat sucks . Gus mccrae had the best advice " the only thing you can do about death is just ride off from it"

Todd, as usual, is full of sh.it.

Check out the democrat underground. Not only do many of the leftwing fu.cksticks want all guns banned they want gunowners executed.

You could research this on your own...or do what mindless idiots like you on the darkside tend to do....which is listen to little miss dipsh.it Todd and take his endless bullsh.it as fact.

I know you'll choose the later.

sources? i dont have any specific ones theres been alot written about him... well i do have one source, its called reality..

no "sane" person goes and kills 168 innocent people for no reason other than because he had some opinions, only fvckin phsycopaths do that crap... i dont give 2 sh!ts about what the doctor said during the trial, McVeigh was in no way a sane person... he was a genius, yes, but batsh!t
crazy to the hilt...

i suppose you are going to tell me Hitler was sane too? did i go to far with him? ok, Moussalini, and if i cant use him, i will use Bin Laden...

and if you think blowing your self up for Allah, isnt crazy, then you sir, are certified fweakin nuts...

I believe this is a turning point, but how far will the turn go? Will it stop at legislation that is sure to be introduced banning assault weapons and end there or will there be more? I don't have the answers, but I do know that the problem has many facets to it and stricter control on assault type weapons is one component that I believe needs to be done; but by itself, not enough.

I do know that over a billion dollars has been cut from mental health programs over the years and is likely not ever to be restored. Arming teachers is not going to happen nor is it practical. Teachers are not police officers and I suspect most would be unwilling to carry and train regularly with firearms.

Then there is the delicate balance of hardening schools as a target. Airport type security is too much, but maybe more can be done. Security officers that are not armed and in uniform as well as properly trained are worthless. So, a lot more money would have to be spent on what truly is a very unlikely unvent. School shootings are low frequency and high risk.

I suspect this shooter was after high shock value and the overwhelming media response only helps that. Every news show I see has this guy's picture up on the screen. Got to wonder how many other whacko's are thinking of ways to out do him.

The discussion needs to move from the usual arguements of gun control Vs locking people up. We can only hope that we as a nation move this discussion to a higher level by bringing everything to the table and recognize that this problem will require a multi faceted approach.

Lol, They are both mental juveniles, one is just a bit sillier than
the other. You pick.

Even if it is a turning point, it won't be very effective, if at all. Events like this are statistical outliers, ranging somewhere between uncommon and rare. I think what is difficult for people to acknowledge and handle is that there is no solution for "preventing mass school murder shootings from ever happening again." What there is are some measures that might reduce the frequency and the extent of damage when they do occur. Changes to address the latter have already occurred. Police responders respond differently by attempting to directly engage the perp instead of waiting for the SWAT team to arrive. Schools devise strategies and drills to reduce the number of victims, which it appears the folks at Sandy Hook did.

Bans on guns labeled "assault weapons" and large capacity magazines would reduce their availability to the criminally motivated over time, probably measured in decades, but instant results would be elusive.

Meanwhile it would be of greater benefit for folks to come to terms with the notion that the certainty they seek is not attainable, at any cost. And society is always concerned about cost. Reactionary measures, like TSA and Homeland Security feel good window dressing, as was done post-9/11, is not an effective alternative.

Well put and very true.

We need to address mental illness and societies reactions and response to those that may not be able to effectively care for themselves. I read a good essay by a mother of a child prone to violent outbursts. I'll see if I can find it.

Well stated, Salmo.

I have a phrase posted on the wall at work which was not coined by me, but one of my co-workers. It seems to fit a multitude of today's reactions.......... "over-reaction to irresponsibility".

Frustratingly true.

Found it....


I am Adam Lanza’s Mother
It's time to talk about mental illness
Liza Long


Friday’s horrific national tragedy—the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in New Town, Connecticut—has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”

“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”

“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”

“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”

“You know where we are going,” I replied.

“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.

The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—“Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…”

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”

I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011.

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

Wow.

Read that the other day, a good read outlining the harsh realities people who have Ill loved ones have to face on a daily basis. We certainly need to devote more resources to helping people out with increased social services that give families a series of resources to help those in need.


On the firearms side of this equation, I got tipped off about a story in something I was reading earlier today and looked it up.



For More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting


The thing I dont understand is the lack of a real solution and false sense of security some of the laws being crafted by the likes of Feinstein and Bloomberg. All of the Assault Weapons bans (or Weapons of mass destruction as I heard on CNN today ) call to only restrict the continued sales of these weapons, leaving millions of weapons in the hands of good and bad owners across the country.

Lets say a full on ban on assault weapons passes.. then ask yourself, have we really solved the problem? Does this act do anything to prevent another tragedy?

I don't think it does. I think we need more Mr. Myrick's out there.

I agree Salmo, statistical outliers. However, so are airline crashes. Low fequency, but when they do happen a lot of life is lost, but no crash has captured the emotion this incident has. Airline crashes are investigated thoroughly and from what is learned from the investigation, it is transformed into new regulations and improvements into airline safety; so much so, airline safety is at an all time high. So why not the same attitude with school or other mass shootings? Why hasn't the investigations into these events been transformed into additonal regulations and safety improvements? I know some changes have been made with schools training for these events, but lets face it most change has been pretty much on the surface and more can and needs to be done.

My point is that it's time to get buy the gun rights arguement and lets get to work with the same zeal we have for improving airline safety and put everything on the table and yes, guns are part of that.

However, assistant principal Joel Myrick had retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham inside his mother's car.


If the school is now a "gun free zone" the assistant principle would be charged with a crime.


This happened at Clackamas Mall but you never hear the whole story

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2012/12/security_guard_said_he_had_rob.html

Read my sig line.........................

Mike,

I'm not saying nothing should be done. Safety improvements are a good idea, just as we have nearly made house fires a statistical outlier, but we still maintain fire departments to respond to the fires that do occur. Similarly with airline safety. Craft measures that actually work to improve the outcome. So far I've heard proposals that are more "feel good" in nature, but under objective review don't appear to change future outcomes. SkyGuy's remark about banning future sales of all assault style weapons is one. The proposers apparently assume that will somehow affect future outcomes without thinking through of how it will or how it won't, and why.

Another suggestion is to have an armed guard at every school. This is probably flat out silly. These school shooters are meticulous planners, and the first part of a future plan would include first taking out the guard before commencing with the rest of the shooting plan.

If there is a gun regulation that would actually achieve the desired outcome, no one has suggested it yet that I am aware of.

Sg

One of those rare occasions where I pretty much agree with you Salmo g.

The focus should be on preventative help and counseling to help those with mental health issues, not changing the rights of citizens.

A fast food approach on trying to solve a greater crisis will only leave you with more of these kind of situations.

Lots of money will be spent.

Lots of politicians will get a job.

Lots of politicians will lose a job.

Lots of ex-politicians will get a better paying job as a lobbyist.

Lots of guns will be sold.

Lots of drugs will be sold to minors.

Lots of kids will graduate from high school with good memorizing skills and absolutely no critical thinking skills.

Lots of media folks will sell lots of advertising (mostly violent movies and video games and a whole lot of drugs).

And occasionally kids will be killed by kids using guns.

Repeat.................................

Bushmaster is being sold...

http://www.king5.com/news/Cerberus-to-sell-gun-company-that-makes-Bushmaster-184017361.html

not everyone agrees with me, but thats the great thing about America, i can have different views of yours and still be entitled to that...

it has nothing to do with the type of guns in this situation, nothing at all, all of them would have been killed regardless of what weapon was used, think about the scenario, yes, its brutal, but its what my logic is telling me what happened, and the Police will NEVER tell you or i if this is actually the case...

the adults in the office, i dont know what i think, other than they were shot, the kids on the other hand, its clear as day...

the medical examiner said that they had "multiple gunshot wounds, to an extent of damage he had never seen before", well, what are the odds that this kid walked into the class room, and stratigically picked off each student and the 1 teacher in the room with multiple shots as they sat at thier desk and noone moved or interupted him while that process to place? there isnt, it would be nearly impossible... what i think happened (just my thoughts), is that the kids were huddled in a corner or something and he entered and started firing into the pile of people in the corner.. that would explain the multiple wounds, and the kids behind the first kids would sustain more damage than normal, as the bullets would have been expanded after passing through the first victims...

my point with that is, it has nothing to do with it being an AR, the same if not more damage could have been inflicted with an 8 shot 12 guage with 00 buck or even slugs, a Marlin tube magazine .22 rifle could have done the same, albeit with much less damage, but still deaths occuring.., or a lever action rifle such as a 1894 Winchester, or, the Henry repeater they found in the trunk of his moms car that he drove.. yes, there would be reload time possibly, but it doesnt take that long to load a shotgun if you know how to handle your weapon... he obviously knew how to handle the weapons he had...

you could walk into a school, store, ect with 2 Colt 1851 Navy pistols, and kill 12 people with them without reloading...

its not the guns, its the person behind the guns, clip/mag size is redunant as well, when people do these things, they are not gearing up for full on warfare (although it seems as so), so it wouldnt make much difference if they walked in with 3 30 round clips, or 9 10 round clips except weight, which really isnt all that much...

a person that is going to so something as horrific as this, will do it with whatever they can get thier hands on, and its not always guns that people use, Ted Bundy never used a gun, sometimes he would use Lamps, Logs, and other crap around the area of which he was comitting his crimes, including his bare hands...

people with mental illnesses should get FREE healthcare for that, not free healthcare in general, but free for their diseases of mental illness.. but the US is too busy sending billions in aid to Pakistan each year than to take care of its own people, crazy or not...

shame..

The fact that your wife is the safety valve for keeping that kid from harming himself and others is a disgrace.

As long as we pretend that those in need of serious help and medication can be taken care of by schools and parents, these kind of events will continue. I understand the implications behind the constitutional concerns, but the constitutional rights of more than 20 people were extinguised last week, and it's time to start talking about how idiotic it is to save some tax money by putting the public at large in jeopardy, and not treating those who need treatment.

This particular kid's parents are probably incapable of helping him, as is your wife. He's a ticking tinme bomb we're going to pretend doesn't exist.

We're just reaping what we've sown for the last 20 years.

I completely understand her position, Chuck, but what if the change in the world is that she gets killed and he gets put in prison for it? She knows the kid better than I do, though, so she might know something I don't.

I think once that kid is 10 or 12, he'll be a real threat.

I can't blame the parents, either. Chances are, they are as helpless as the mother of the genius psychopath kid in dealing with the situation.

Peace and love forever.

Wow....This thread was started in good faith & a possible path forward.

It's too bad this one couldn't break free.

I'm betting more people have debated whether to or not too....myself included.

Not pointing fingers....just saying.

Sad.

Mf

Chuck......sounds really serious......and dangerous.
Maybe it's time for a "what if"

What if your wife gets an eye put out by this out-of-control kid? Is it going to matter who's at fault? Will ANYONE think it was worth it? Obviously your wife cares, but it also sounds like she is powerless to change this kid.....is it not better to work with receptive kids rather than waste time that could be used to help others in need?

tough deal, for sure.

Back to the Adam Lanza kid.

As I stated before, information on his mental stability was due to come out, and it has. Apparently his mom was on the verge of taking two actions.

1. Was to have him involuntarily committed.
2. Was to have him and herself move to Washington State to attend some school that she thought would provide him some help.

What happened at this school was horrific beyond all comprehension. There is no denying that. My heart aches for those parents, and the families of the adults killed, but mostly for the souls of those 20 young kids. I am not a religious person, but these deaths have impacted me greatly. I tear up every time I think about it.

What I am having an issue is a change in any legislation or laws that affects the rights of sane people because of the actions of a deranged human being. There is no pussyfooting around that issue here. Apparently he took afront to being involuntarily committed, and so he set the actions in motion that we are all aware of.

To say that this mother loved her child is an understatement, but she knew his potential, or at least she thought she did, so she had started to take steps to keep the public at large safe. It seems she was just a little late in her actions.

Chuck, we had a child at the school my youngest goes to who is as disruptive as the one your wife deals with, or more. We have had discussions with the parents on a School Board to parent level stating that basic education is what the school is responsible for, but that it is not the responsibility of the staff to take regular beatings in the interest of educating a single child. There really is no educating this child to be brutally honest, so after a number of bruises, and bleeding wounds, we went through the school's standard disciplinary process and expelled the child.

Some children, very very few, are damaged beyond all repair, and regardless of what you do, or how much you love them, they will not assimilate. Period.

Maybe some of these kids should have been taken for a walk in the woods and never come back. It's cold, but sometimes the greater good should get priority. Tell people he went to live with an uncle or something.

I know you are being sarcastic, but some folks do not belong in the general population. I am not advocating eugenics in any way shape or form.

Wow, this is the most civilized gun control thread I have seen ages. I'm kinda speachless..

BTW I agree with AP and Todd for the most part on this issue..

JFC the Mayans were right.

2 Many eloquently said what so many of us feel. This is so horrible it's really hard to comprehend. The live lost are only a drop in the bucket to the lives forever damaged.

We all know new gun laws will do little to stop this. What might help IMHO is far better mental health care. Most insurance companies provide very limited mental health coverage as do most state public assistance programs. And very few can afford to pay the costs out of pocket.

If we want better mental health care we will need to pay for it - either through considerably health insurance premiums, higher taxes or both.

It will not be just paying more for mental health it will also include ceding civil rights for all of us. Read about France's farmer and all of the forced lobotomies in the 50's . The laws changed for a reason and it was not just about cost. Other governments around the world routinely use mental health as a reason to suppress dissonance.

Freedom is not free it comes at a price.

Long ago I learned that trying to comprehend insanity IS insanity in itself.

Chuck---I'm not ignoring you just very busy with taking care of my wife and daughter that are getting over a cold and in the middle of moving.

I will say that I feel for your wife and am familiar with the responsibilties placed on teachers. They have become pyschologists, educators, nurses and everything else that the students parents aren't. My SIL is a teachers in Marysville and works with the worst of the troubled souls that either don't have physically present parents, emotionally absent parents, substance abuse and physical and emotionally abusiove parents. Listening to her brings tears to my eyes.

I've gained a different perspective for what we expect from educators and support them. They've become almost a last line of defense and support for the poor children.

The teachers and schools pushed for mainstreaming back in the 60's . As a part of their empire building they wanted to be able to hire and control more budget. the one on one programs for disabled kids developed from lawsuits centered around equal access to education. I don't feel sorry for the teachers at all. If the schools would cut all the bullshiat from their budgets they would have plenty of money and support. Our middle school just placed # 6 in the state in reading and math MSP not because we have a bigger budget or more teachers but because of parent volunteers and community involvement with the school management. There is still 50% waste in time and resource that could be applied to the core subjects.

If banning assault rifles with high capacity magazines saves the life of one child, then it's worth it.
If you want to play with assault rifles, then join the fuking military.

You could remove the weapon of choice.

why should i be punnished for someone elses actions?

it would be like me taking your car away because some drunk guy killed a family last night... is that fair?

i go through all proper background checks and wait periods (if nessecary) when purchasing firearms, why should i be punnished because a few people get guns illegally and create mayhem with them?

i didnt cause them to do it, they did, i didnt help them, why punnish me?

people are taking the term "assault weapon" or "assault rifle", way too far... any weapon can be used to assault someone, even a butter knife, are we gonna label them "assault butter knives" now?

Amen brother Stam . You get it.

But it won't.. Nutjobs will be Nutjobs. Hi capacity magazines are such a minor issue as are AR15's..

The number 1 school massacre committed in the US was perpetrated with Dynamite by a nut Job in the 20's.

The biggest national tragedies as far as body count were done with fertilizer/diesel and Airplanes.

Media is a much bigger problem than guns. They just can not help themselves in attempting to out report one another. Just makes these POS losers all the more likely to copycat.


A quick bullet and flush of the name from history would do far more to stop the next one than banning guns.

Some of the debate on gun control includes a rural vs. urban perspective that makes me a little uncomfortable. Urban folks tend to see guns as instruments of crime and violence - rural folks see them as tools for hunting and self-defense.

I don't think new gun laws will make much difference in the short term, either.

At the same time, I can't really justify any reason not to ban assault weapons. In my mind, it isn't a slippery slope, but rather a fairly clear line. For me, assault weapons land somewhere past the tools of self-defense and hunting.

I also don't think it is unreasonable to make buying and owning a gun in all states as difficult as getting a driver's license. We don't see that as a huge loss of freedom. And even though any yahoo can grab the keys and go barreling into people down the road one day, we still think it is prudent to have a process in place where folks are required to demonstrate their ability to safely operate a vehicle.

Your "assault weapon" is my favorite Varmit rifle.

Yeah because 35k dead and 10k from drinks shows how well the licensing system works. Education works too we have poured billions into programs to reduce unwanted pregnancies and still 50% of all pregnancies are unplanned and there are well over a million abortions performed each year. People are going to do what they want to do regardless of what obstacles you put in their way.

The idea of a media blackout that discusses the mental state and motivations of the shooter is equivilent of yelling "LALALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Discussing the background and what lead to an event is fundamental in trying to figure out what happened and, hopefully, using that information to prevent something similar in the future.

Find another weapon you d1psh1t.
Now I now why some animals eat their young.

When people walking into a room and kill multiple people with a cigarette you might have a legit comparison Chunky. You do that UW BA proud.

How did you survive? Cain used a rock. Ban rocks. How many can
you fry with a Molotov Coctail or two tossed into a classroom?
Gotta figure out some way to forestall the psychos. And the psychos
are known to many parents.

There are some really bad analogies in this thread.

The use of bad analogies is the cornerstone of the "we don't have enough guns, that's the problem!" argument.

Fish on...

Todd

If there were a billion guns the problem would still be the same as it is today if there were no guns we would still have the same problem. People kill people as a supposed resolution to a myriad of issues , always have always will. The largest mass killing of kids in the US involved dynamite. It happened before TV, video games and the NRA and almost every house hold had guns in 1927

Chuckles the methodology behind that stat is highly disputed and came from a series of very biased studies in the war on smoking. I don't believe it but will agree with you that it is a bigger preventable death number than kids killed in school shootings.

a couple pages back i said i thought that they were huddled in a corner or such, and he came in and started firing into the crowd, and that likely, we would never hear the true account...

i was wrong.., about the hearing about it part...

they were in a closet...

i knew in the back of my mind i never wanted to find out, now i know why... messed up...

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/...msnhp&pos=1

Cops hate when people are running everywhere, so we are told to stay put. And we buy it.

Gdammit people, think! Your job is NOT to make a cop's job easy! It's nice when it works that way, but it is NOT NECESSARY!

If you're going to fight.....hold nothing back!
If you're not going to fight..................RUN!

But for chrissakes, don't just stand, sit, or lay still!

As long as I'm ranting.......you, Illahee, need to live in the real world and stay the hell out of lala land. EVERYTHING can kill a child.....banning you would be a good start.

Retied military, up yours meat slapper.

Illahee, thanks for your service, but dont be a douche bag....

question:

crazy person has a gun to your head, what are you more afraid of? Charles Daly single shot 12 guage or a AR-15 with a Trijicon and a 100 round dual/drum?

heres a hint to the answer, you only get to die once...

Being ex-military carries weight with me. Especially retired military. So your statement concerning "If it saves the life of one child...." seems extraordinarily left of center for a military retiree. What "fuking" branch did you enjoy for so long? and how come?

So your asking me what I'd do if you had a gun to my head?
Seriously I'm afraid of people like you, that's why I'm well armed.

Nice save, Chuck.

I was sure I was going to see Chuck Norris

Give Illahee a break, maybe he was a Chaplain and now has post traumatic service disorder.

No sky pilot,. but I did three Southeast Asia tours as a aircraft mech. 1969-1972 and retired from the ANG.
And now I'm collecting service related disablity payments, getting a skin cancer screening, so there might be another claim filed.

Spent my entire career of 30yrs working outside in a no hat area, sun screen was not issued.
Much of that time was in SE Asia, Panama, desert SW and Florida.
What are the odds it's service related?

Hank's just being a twat.

He does that.

Dan S. spent his tour in SE Olympia.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930326&slug=1692592

I have a daughter in kindergarten. I feel the same way

Strange world, I was there in Tourane in 1953-1954. Talked a
lot of R4Ds down on the dirt strip that became the Danang airfield.
Field wasn't big enough for some of the flying boxcars that Mcgoon
flew.

7 pages and I never did see anybody type a word about mom not having the guns locked up. For F__ks sakes, I live alone and keep mine in a locked closet. It was pretty obvious this kid had some heavy duty mental issues but I haven't read or heard a damn thing about how the guns were stored in the news. If this woman would have kept the guns (that, IMHO she had every right to own) locked up, she and 27 other people would be still be alive. So should the congress pass more laws because of this? No, unless it's a tax break on gun safes because it is impossibile to legislate stupidity.

that closet an outward opening door?

Outward, but I "fixed" the pins. Mostly for child proofing, I have a 1 year old grandaughter. If someone was going to steal them if my house got broken into it probably wouldn't slow the thief down much except the fact he would have to make noise to get it open. The lock on the closet serves the same prurpase as a kiddie lock on the cupboard under the kitchen sink, safety.
My point was the woman in question shold have been resposibile enough to keep her guns out of the hands of someone in the houeshold that shouldn't have access to them. She was getting $200K plus a year in alimony so I think she could have bougt a decent safe, if for no other reason than to protect her son from himself.

So then divert all NRA membership dough to LE salaries.

The idiotic argument of arming teachers, etc does more harm than good. Panicked cross fire will kill many. Then think from a responding officers POV...people holding guns. Who's the bad guy? Gun points towards me I am trained to take them out. Dead teachers.

Why does anyone besides the gun and ammo manufacturers trust the NRA to do anything other than exactly the wrong thing almost every time?

Like I said a week ago...the NRA will always tell you that the answer to any problem, any question, or any issue is to always have more guns, and make it easier to have them with you wherever you are.

Fish on...

Todd

Yup and everyone is a Daniel Boone crack shot. Funny thing is I've been carrying my crossbow since the 60's and I've never had a mass murderer to shoot at. But if he were to appear I'd hit the bastard in his right non-dilated pupil and then split that arrow with a second shot for good measure.

Full disclosure - I don't like the NRA, I believe they do not have the best interests of the US at heart. Today was the best they could come up with? Really? Videos, music, and video games? Last I checked, Canada, Australia, and the UK had access to the same videos, music, and video games. Look at the murder rates in those countries compared to ours and tell me that the NRA has any kind of a clue.

I already pointed that out, eddie, and not surprisingly it wasn't discussed much then, either.

The NRA has one interest in mind...the economic well-being of the gun and ammo industry.

Fish on...

Todd

As a life member of the NRA I was pretty disgusted with their (our?) recommendation.

Lately I have been very unhappy with all of the RWNJ rhetoric and this is just icing on the cake.


Fishy

You're clearly unhappy, ssf...something is obviously missing in your life.

I suggest you go buy two guns and call LaPierre in the morning.

Fish on...

Todd

Perhaps a spud gun to shoot at spoon fisherman!










Just saying I am not very happy with some of their recent actions.

Fishy

I have no idea, perhaps you could enlighten us.



Fishy

You got kids, Todd?
You trust that cops can/will protect kids?

I am far from a cop hater.....but the reality is that they are a "reactive", as in "after the fact", group that will NOT be there when needed......not out of choice, but rather out of logistics. Meanwhile, down on the ranch, your kids are on their own and huddling in a corner awaiting their demise because no one has firearms handy enough to do any good.

Want to discuss boxknives? It's you pussy do-nothings that are as responsible for killing the people as the original perps. It doesn't take a cop's bullet to kill a killer. As for your own yellow-stained-panty group......huddle up.

Here's a question for all you dipstick "Save Me" types....In the Conn incident, how many lives were "saved" by the cops? How about the 911 incident.....how many lives again saved by the cops?

Cowardice is a wonderful thing......makes easy targets.

I'd be more careful of letting sh!t like this on the internet, old man, before someone gets fed up and kicks the fu.ck right out of you.

That statement is some low-down classless sh!t, you motherfucker.

What part of it appealed to you, Danny?

Slab, did someone piss in your Wheaties this morning? Chill, dude!

this is sheer insanity...

pretty much all stores around here are VOID of AR rifles, the price going is ridiculous as well.. i talked to a few places i frequent, both are out of stock, and as of closing yesterday, one place had 11 back ordered... he also said that he has seen ARs going for as high as 4 grand... Magpull mags, have gone from 10 bucks to 50 bucks, and 1000 rounds of .223 ammo which was around 250 3 weeks ago, is 400+ now...

and the stores are PACKED with people...

get it while you can guys....

"this is sheer insanity"

Correct. You idiots are doing a run on the bank. Same thing happened with Twinkies.

I'll sell some to you. $4k a pop.

im not buying any.. i sold my AR years ago, matter of fact, i sold it when that whole Beltway Sniper thing was going on, i didnt like the looks i was getting at the gun ranges, so i got rid of it and bought a Ruger M77 MKII .338 Win Mag... i love ARs and the likes, love shooting them, but im more of a bolt action guy these days...i would rather see whats coming, rather than wait for it till its in my face....

Here's the thing on this whole assault weapon ban. The proposal does not fit the statistics. Based on 2010 data from the FBI, out of 8,775 firearm related murders, 358 were directly linked to rifles. 358 as a percentage of 8,775 is 4.1%.

Please justify banning something that is responsible for 4.1% of all firearms murders, and 2.7% of all murders? Knives were respionsible for 14% of ALL murders, 12,996. Hands fists and feet were responsible for 745 murders, about 5.7% of all murders.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

I doubt anyone's attempting to ban murder. It's mass murder. Who knows if it would have an impact or not.

Brownell's just made a butt load of money...

http://now.msn.com/brownells-firearms-retailer-sells-3-years-of-ammo-in-72-hours

This kind of lawsuit is on the list.

Slab Happy,
The assumptions, insinuations, and accusations you made or implied in this post, towards Todd or "his" kind... automatically make you the biggest fuckstick to ever post on this board.

Of course they did......it was a gun-free zone. Protected by FeatherButt and friends.

What does this mean? You didn't like the looks you were getting?