Not about guns or mental illness...

Despite what we are hearing from reporters, talking heads, pundits and politicians, we don’t have a gun control problem, or even a problem with mental illness. Instead, we have a much deeper problem, a true cultural problem.

Fifty years ago we had guns and people who suffered from mental illness. We had guns in or at schools. We took guns to school because we were probably hunting on the way to school or hunting on the way home after school. We could buy guns and ammunition from the local hardware store, or order it from the Montgomery Ward or Sears & Roebuck catalog. There was one significant cultural difference, however. Whether you were mentally healthy or mentally ill, you were taught that it was wrong to point a gun at a person, even accidentally. And if you did, consequences were immediate. You lost your gun and you probably got your butt kicked. This immediate consequence didn’t just come from your parents, but from any adult around you. It was part of the culture that insisted on cultural norms such as politeness and individual responsibility.

Fifty years later we have a very different cultural norm. Thanks to movies, videos, games and the internet, we are slowly losing the societal politeness and individual accountability. Modern culture celebrates not only the pointing of weapons at others, but we are actually scored on the number of kills we have. Winners are the people who kill the most people. We can insult others with apparent impunity through the anonymity of the internet, without regard to truth or consequences. We glorify violence in virtually all the media sources we encounter, and are then shocked when it lands on our doorstep. While those with normal psyches may be able to deal with this virtual overload of violent stimulation, is it any wonder that those who suffer from mental illness are not able to process this stimulation without more than a small amount of confusion? Everyone wants to ‘belong’, everyone wants success. And success can now be defined as how many ‘kills’ we can score, how many people we can kill, humiliate or destroy.

Until we come to grips with the cultural reversal that glorifies this systemic violence, we will continue to repeat the Columbines, Virginia Techs, and Newport’s that seem to leave us asking why, without truly examining our culture.

Us old guys know what that is about........the younger ones........doubt it.

We treated them back then, Einstein.

The rest of your post is BS. Look at the side of a WWII fighter. We counted kills back then, too.

el defenso resto.......

missed the point

The point is on your dunce cap.

I don't find much fault with a lot of the stuff in your post, Alan...but that start often ends with the "and an armed society is a polite society", and the eventual conclusion that the problem is that we don't have enough guns, and that not having enough guns is the "cultural problem" that needs to be fixed.

What's your solution to the "cultural problem"?

Fish on...

Todd

How many kids had semi-auto with 30 round clips 50 years ago? None.

To say that 50 years ago was some sort of peaceful utopia is complete crap.

JFK
RFK
MLK
Wallace
Lynchings
Watts
DNC
University of Texas
etc, etc, etc

It's not just this country either....Germany, Scotland, Norway. The difference is we make it a lot easier.

How about no or little parental supervision?

think that has changed?

Schools raising kids is far from parents doing it.

credit and debt has both parents working.....chasing utopia? or plain greed?

You want a "no entitlements" kick and claw, sink or swim, society but are surprised when people snap?
We've always had some form of this. Usually it's a father or mother taking out the entire family.

We treated them back then, Einstein.
Committed, not treated, but off the street anyways. We don't do this anymore because we would be infringing on somebodies right to the pursuit of happiness or some [Bleeeeep!].

How many kids had semi-auto with 30 round clips 50 years ago? None.
Doesn't matter how big your clip is, they still didn't go around shooting up kids. All the shootings you listed were Ideological or political, what happened last week had no purpose at all, unless it was the left trying to get gun control back in the big picture(for all you conspiracy theorists)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there is no one cause for any of the problems our society has, it's a combination of issues, and different issues for each different incident. If you blame video games, why not music, maybe they listen to to much LMFAO or RAM. Maybe to much Neil Diamond and they just go off the deep end. Maybe chemicals the gov't puts in outr food. Who knows.

Same video games, movies, and music in Canada and in the UK.

Anyone care to take a stab at comparing gun violence rates?

Blaming music, video games, and movies makes as much sense as solving our gun problem with more guns.

Fish on...

Todd

You saying Charles Whitman had a politcal agenda?
1966: killed his family then went on a shooting rampage at the U of Texas. Sound familiar?

As far as I can tell every generation is convinced things were way better back in the good old days.

"Their manners are more gentle, kind, than of our generation you shall find.”

William Shakespeare, The Tempest

Don't know if these were posted before but the pattern is all the same dating back more that a hundred years. The only difference is that weapons are more efficient. We have always lived in a violent society.

"The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, and four other adults; at least 58 people were injured. The perpetrator first killed his wife, and committed suicide with his last explosion. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–14 years of age[1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history.[2]"

1974 Olean High School shooting
1976 California State University
1976 California State University, Fullerton massacre
1979 Cleveland Elementary School shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States

No, because I was 3 yrs old and don't have all day to look [Bleeeeep!] up to prove a point! what I put on here is an opinion not trying to change the world.

The point is that this is nothing new. There have always been people who snap and go on a rampage unlike your and the above arguments to the contrary.

The human condition. Wonder why the various religions have a
Good God and a Bad God. Jehovah and Satan if you will. There has
to be some explanation for the instances when the Good God is
looking the other way. ergo Satan.
Unfortunately we will alwaays have the psychos. Perchance we will
find a way to see their anti-social potential. But I doubt it.
Hell getting two shrinks to agree on any diagnosis or treatment
scenario is damn near impossible.
Se la guerre.

It might not come across in these posts, probably the way I state things when typing, but I generallly agree with you, sthead. Yes, it seems we have more incidents now, but comparing the ratio of incidents to population density of now to any time in the past, is it really more? Or do we still have the same number of crazies comparablly?

...and we do have much better(maybe) communications now. The
media won't miss a chance to be the first to get it wrong.

I think we've always had crazies, they just have access to better killing toys and we hear about all of them while they're happening now.

Fish on...

Todd

Yup. Either we have a dispproportional number of crazies than other countries or it is our easy access to weapons capable of carrying out mass murder. Or both. One could argue that countries whom have a better work/life balance, universal health care, etc have lower incidents but then they also have strict gun control.

Explosives are heavily regulated. Try getting your hands on some. Even a large fertilizer purchase will have the Govt knocking on your door thanks to McVeigh.

Everything in life eventually boils down to one thing, pussy. The shooters are not getting any and it angers them. Woman shooters are rare why? Because its easy for them to get dik all they have to do is show the clam and someone will jump on it. No way in hell the conn shooter ever even saw a real pussy let alone get to play with one. Import them some of that Russian mail order skank and put them to work.

this is such a trajedy and my heart goes out to all those whos child or parent didnt come home!!

Charles Whitman had six 30-round magazines for his M1 Carbine.

So, the NRA is going to have some sort of a public release tomorrow where they have vowed to make "meaningful contributions" to addressing the issue.

Here are a couple of options:

1. Anything meaningful at all.

2. Proposing legislation that makes it easier to obtain, shoot, and carry guns thereby addressing the gun problem by framing the problem as "there are not enough guns", and proposing a solution to that problem, and thereby addressing nothing whatsoever.

My suspicion is that they will pay lip service to #1, support something meaningless as a token hat tip to preventing gun violence, and then wholeheartedly carry the banner of the gun manufacturers and ammo manufacturers (who are the NRA's real membership, not us gunowners) by blaming gun violence on everything other than guns.

Fish on...

Todd

Reminds me of the way they solved the banking crisis.

But that'll make the sheep feel safer...

Thank god for mirrors otherwise you'd never see a pussy.

Yup the old "arm everyone" argument. If everyone were armed the carnage would be ten times worse. And then LE would come in and kill anyone left pointing a gun.

We come on here and get to hear you be a pussy daily.......I guess that is not the same thing as seeing one.

Almost as good as "no you are". You can have that one if you'd like.

The world and how it works, according to dickspooge.

If the government bans assault weapons, which weapons will be banned? i.e., which firearms are assault weapons?

Good to know you are ok KK I heard trailer burned down and they found a body in it today in Forks. Hate to kick a guy so far down on his luck. God bless this Christmas.

exactly SG, what constitues a rifle being an "assault rifle" or "assault weapon"?

is it the sexy AR platform? that is widely used by the US Military and Police forces in the US and abroad? and has killed people in war?

is it the short barreled pump action shotguns used in trench warfare in the WWs? and has killed people in war?

is it the M1 Garand, used widely in WW2 and beyond? and has killed people in war?

the M1 Carbine? that has killed people in war?

the Colt 1911, that has killed people in war?

the lever action Winchesters and the likes that the cowboys used to kill indians and others during times of "war"?

the 1903 A3 Springfield bolt action rifle, that killed people in war?

the 1861 and 1863 Sprinfield Muskets and 1853 Brittish Enfield rifles that killed hundreds of thousands of people in the Civil War?

the 1795 Sprinfield Musket and British Baker rifles used to kill people in the War of 1812?

the Brown Bess and Kentucky Rifles used in the Revolutionary war, that killed people?

just because a bunch of plastic is clipped on a gun to make it look "futuristic" and up to date, doesnt make it any more scary than a .54 caliber Hawken when pointed at your head.. 3 10 round clips out of a Beretta 9mm could have done the same thing to those kids in the closet, a shotgun, or even a .22 same thing... it has nothing to do with what type of rifle it was, all rifles/guns are weapons, and when used against another human, wether in murder, or in war, they become an "assault weapon", because the weapon is being used to assault someone... just because you put a bunch of ferrings and flares and a fin on your 1989 Honda, doesnt make it a race car, it just makes it look like one, a crappy one, but you get the point...

in the Civil, Revolutionary, and 1812 wars, they also used swords to kill people, but those arent talked about, Bayonets were another brutal weapon... i cant remember fully, but i talk frequently with the curator of the Historical Military Museum here, and have sold him items of mine and such, and i asked him why Bayonets werent serrated, to create massive wounds and such, and he said i think it was the Geneva Convention that outlawed the use of them, and "3" sided knifes, as you couldnt heal from that type of wound... not 100 so dont quote me on that one... in any case, anything can be an "assualt weapon", i could assault the sh!t out of you with my shoe, wich then by law, makes it a weapon... gonna ban Nikes now?

Impossible to ban all things murder. But then it's pretty tough to commit mass murder with rocks, knives, clubs, chain saws, etc. You aren't going after Harp Seals.

He doesn't have to cut wood...that's why he's got a space heater.

Fish on...

Todd

They should just force children to learn how to shoot, and make them carry from five years old on.

I can guarantee you that the NRA and their owners in the gun and ammo industry would support that 100%.

They'll call it "GoBoomaCare".

Fish on...

Todd

I think your an expert on dones Hank.

Oops, cat typo, she likes to walk on the keyboard.
When it comes to drones, Hank you are the man.
Better?

If even one Senator can propose a bill that will actually improve future outcomes, I'll buy him or her dinner. I think I'm safe.

I can dig your point of view Alan. It has to be difficult for anyone with mental disabilities to get a firm grip on reality in today's supercharged infoblast. One can hope that the benefits of technology will overcome the negative B.S..

P.S. Methinks there may be a few gamers in the crowd.

peace

A lot of proposals made, most of them not very realistic or socially or economically acceptable, other than emotionally. My wife and I were talking about this last night and concluded that one single small action that would "harden the target" signficantly would be having classroom doors that automatically lock such that they can be opened from the inside, but could by opened from the "outside" or hallway side with a key. That's not very expensive, and it doesn't save everyone's life, but it would keep a classroom full of kids from being targets. So it could save a significant number of lives if and when an intruder comes into a school to shoot.

Sounds like the airline approach to terror. Where do the black box and skymarshals go?

And those who support the NRA will continue to show that they, too, have no clue.

To expect the NRA to be anywhere but exactly wrong on most any issue surrounding guns and their use would be expecting far too much.

Fish on...

Todd

The only time I was an NRA member was to be part of a gun club so I could get discounted prices on reloading supplies. I've helped to run two pieces of gun related legislation through the State house specifically without their help, because of the impediment they create with their abject stupidity on a number of issues. Going for a third piece of legislation this year, re-running a bill we tried last year, also without their help. Listening to them speak on almost any issue is like watching a slow motion train wreck on a loop.

+1

+1

Not surprised...your changes make common sense.

Fish on...

Todd

There you go again...
You are saying thoughtful things, again.

We need to look at this problem from multiple levels, if there were one quick fix we would probably have done it , and would quite possibly be wrong. Be wary of unintended consequences.

Other questions arise: Do we know where his mom stored these weapons? Did she have a safe? Did she think he was a danger? Why did she have these weapons available readily in the first place? Not to blame the mom, she is a victim, too. But does anyone think that mental illness on the part of the shooter had NOTHING to do with this? My nephew has Asperger's and there is NWIH that I would trust him around anything dangerous. He just does not have the judgement or restraint piece in place, and at 34 years old, he probably never will.

This episode has caused such pain in the American psyche that it is almost unbelievable, a truly incredible (non believable) event that leaves all of us stunned and grasping for solutions, Many of us have kids and we want to guard and protect them, and if we don't have kids, we still have a sense of protecting our "tribe."

A common theme here is doing things that will work to keep this from happening again. What is our desired outcome and how do we get there?

Best,

Rick