Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#1061499 - 02/10/23 03:08 PM Are OP steel headed for ESA listing?
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
WA wild steelhead are in deep doo doo. It's been 20 years since the first iteration of the wild steelhead moratorium. ESA is probably next...

"We find that the petition presents substantial scientific and commercial information indicating the listing may be warranted. We will conduct a status review of OP steelhead to determine whether listing is warranted. To ensure that the status review is comprehensive, we are soliciting scientific and commercial information pertaining to this species from any interested party."

https://www.federalregister.gov/document...ZZNC2x2xZmkDv7Q
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

Top
#1061500 - 02/10/23 03:51 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
ESA has worked so well for WA's Chinook, other steelhead and SRKWs. Let's jump on that bus.

Now, if these were stocks of Condors, Peregrines, Whooping Cranes, even wolves I'd have more hope. Too many deep pocketed interests in the status quo.

Top
#1061501 - 02/10/23 07:43 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
The answer is yes. The writing was on the wall when they closed our hatchery fisheries to protect wild fish, right?

Top
#1061502 - 02/10/23 07:52 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Sort of. They closed the hatcheries and did nothing for the wild fish.

Top
#1061503 - 02/10/23 08:41 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
These streams represent the best of the best anadramous habitat left in Western Washington. Yes, logging has left its mark...but there are no dams, no metropolis, and much of the headwaters are in federally protected park lands. There is no better stronghold for salmonids to take refuge to weather the stresses of climate change. As far as ocean conditions... well that's not anything we possess ANY semblance of meaningful ability to change. The only substantive factor remaining within direct human control is to curtail harvest.

Treaty right to fish pre-dates and therefor supersedes ESA. I don't see the tribes giving up their treaty right to fish for cultural ceremonial and subsistence purposes, but ESA could certainly cut into their allowed days and significantly squelch take for commercial purposes. Under ESA the days of 5 days a week netting are probably on their way out, but let's not delude ourselves that it would be ZERO.

The limited rec fishery? Hard to deny it's going to continue circling the drain toward inconsequence. As long as these runs remain depressed, rec fishing will take a back seat. At best, it might resemble something like our fishery for ESA-listed CR upriver spring chinook. A predetermined limited percentage of allowable impact or ESA "take" shared by the users as directed treaty harvest balanced against H&R release mortailites of wild fish plus directed rec harvest of hatchery fish. Under no circumstances would the NON-treaty take of hatch steel plus release morts exceed the number of "a fish is a fish" taken by tribal gillnets.

Hard to be optimistic about recovery when ESA protections for salmonids have such a dismal record virtually everywhere they've been listed. The real goal seems to be preserving as much of "business as usual" as possible, while just barely allowing the listed fish to NOT blink out. Human activity (in terms of ongoing fishing, land use, and water use) continues at the maximum possible level as long as the remnant salmon populations can still be maintained on life support. Actual recovery of populations as the end game? Well, that's a horse of a different color.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

Top
#1061504 - 02/10/23 08:48 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
You hit that nail hard, Doc. If we can't have huge wild runs of anadromous salmonids on the OP then we can't have them anywhere in WA. Damn few dams, much in NP or wilderness, few hatcheries.

To me, there is a real risk that failure on the OP closes the door for the rest of the state. And maybe even further south and east.

Top
#1061505 - 02/10/23 09:54 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 231
Loc: Mason County
This may have been discussed in the past, but on systems without a native population of summer run fish, would this mean potentially curtailing planting of hatchery summers?

Top
#1061506 - 02/10/23 09:57 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
I think steelhead depend a lot more on rotting salmon than is understood (or perhaps acknowledged). In places where steelhead live, the numbers seem to be best where the salmon escapements are best. Granted, that's a relative comparison at best, because there ain't a whole heck of a lot of either left much of anywhere....

Top
#1061507 - 02/11/23 07:51 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1383
How is OR coming out unscathed?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

Top
#1061508 - 02/11/23 08:24 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
In answer to seabeckraised's question about summers, I would say no planting. Summers have shown a greater ability to go feral than winters. In OR, the laddered a barrier that allowed winters into summer habitat. Summers declined (competition). I would expect the summers to similarly compete with and lower the winter population. Unless, of course, the summers settled in tributary/reach(above a barrier) that was naturally devoid of winters.

As to where there are lots of steelhead one can loo at Kamchatka where they are abundant in the streams they inhabit. Couple pieces of additional information is that the fraction of repeat spawners is well north of 50% and the Russian managers aim for a minimum of 1 kg/sq metre of spawning pinks and chum. That's the baseline. We, on the other hand, like to shoot for about 0.1...

Top
#1061510 - 02/11/23 11:17 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
OP steelhead appear to be "more likely than not" headed for an ESA listing. Unlike PS, I expect that the coastal tribes may push back harder at NMFS to avoid the listing because they do target harvest of wild steelhead. The PS tribes focused their steelhead harvests on hatchery fish. The listing has had less of an effect on PS treaty fishing in general.

If listed, I expect nothing less than the highest quality lip service given to OP steelhead recovery, because that is what the fishery agencies do. Measures that might actually move the needle forward toward recovery impose too severe of social and economic impacts that are not acceptable to society at large. So many consultations will be held, and many biological opinions will be written that conclude with "non-jeopardy" determinations while the populations continue to decline. At least we will provide the cover of saying, "Hey, we gave it the good old college try."

Recreational fishing will be even more restricted than it is now, if PS is an example. Curtailing fishing is simply the low hanging fruit. It won't matter. I've written before that fishing is not the proximate cause of the declining steelhead populations in WA. To be sure, fishing has contributed to steelhead population abundance in the past, but not in recent years (with a few previously noted possible exceptions). I'll allege again that if zero steelhead fishing had occurred on WA origin steelhead anywhere since 1980, the run sizes would be pretty much the same as we are observing in these most recent years. Because recreational fishing regulations have become sufficiently protective to ensure that spawning escapements have been sufficient to seed freshwater habitat to its contemporary carrying capacity, strange as that would seem in many cases. Again, that is because fishing, as visible and easy to blame as it is, isn't the limiting factor for wild steelhead population abundance.

Top
#1061511 - 02/11/23 12:15 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I like "highest quality lip service". Along with "process is our most important product".

Top
#1061512 - 02/11/23 05:44 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 263
Loc: Tumwater
Isn't it strange that there are heavy restrictions on fishing OP winter steelhead, yet they are NOT listed (yet), but Columbia River streams (Kalama, etc.) HAVE listed steelhead in them, with liberal seasons. Just the normal consistently inconsistent management of steelhead in our state.

Top
#1061513 - 02/11/23 06:28 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Gee, Tug. You worked with WDFW folks and you expect logical consistency?

Top
#1061514 - 02/11/23 08:53 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1533
Loc: Tacoma
Just ask what is present on the OP rivers that is missing in the Kalama.



I having been seeing tons of photos about how great fishing has been on the Quinault, Salmon and Cooke creek.

Top
#1061515 - 02/11/23 09:06 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Good points Krijack and Tug. The rivers that have closed steelhead seasons are tribal netted. The Columbia tribs and Willapa rivers are not tribal netted and have normal steehead seasons. Interesting to say the least.

Top
#1061516 - 02/11/23 09:42 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1533
Loc: Tacoma
More specifically, they are netted by one tribe. The Hoko, Pysht, Sekiu and Sooez are all open. Small rivers with mostly wild runs. Makes one wonder. Just of Clarification, I am not sure that the tribe puts any hatchery fish above the fish barrier on the Sooez.


Edited by Krijack (02/11/23 09:43 PM)

Top
#1061517 - 02/11/23 09:54 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1383
Why dictatorial closures by the Quinaults only?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

Top
#1061518 - 02/11/23 10:05 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1533
Loc: Tacoma
Good question. I would love to see how may Salmon river fish are taken by recreational fisherman below the reservation, compared to what are being impacted by those on tribal. I would be surprised if it is any thing less than 15 to 1 in favor of the upper river impacts. Of course this year, the impacts are 100% reservation based. The tribe is requiring catch cards this year, so it would easy to see what they took this year, but for some reason I doubt we will ever hear the numbers.


Edited by Krijack (02/11/23 10:06 PM)

Top
#1061519 - 02/12/23 06:14 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Definitely, there is a problem between WDFW and the QIN. Wild steelhead run estimates between the two must be a problem or at least one of the problems. Something needs to be ironed out between them. It looks like WDFW will continue to plant normal numbers of hatchery steelhead in the Chehalis system tribs and the Humptulips. Lots will be going to the food banks and some will be planted in a few of the lakes which has proved to be pretty unsuccessful.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
big moby
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
1 registered (Carcassman), 975 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 28170
Dan S. 17149
Sol Duc 16138
The Moderator 14486
Salmo g. 13523
eyeFISH 12767
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9160
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63778 Topics
645351 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |