The time I really get a little tweaked about this is when I have to release Columbia springers that I know are all hatchery - you see for some reason, even though the clipped/unclipped ratio is about 50/50, I catch 4 or 5 unclipped for every clipped. Some days are even worse - my buddy and I had a day down at Cathlamet where I caught 5 - all unclipped - and he caught 4 - all clipped. At least I could take two of his home

Part of what is going on is that in Oregon particularly certain hatchery managers are worried about all of the selective fishing on clipped fish is perhaps reducing escapement to the hatchery to the point where egg take may be compromised, so they release unclipped fish for "insurance" - this was related to me by a hatchery manager of my acquaintence so I'm pretty sure it's true.

Selective fishing for marked fish has such great potential for all sorts of management purposes, but mostly for ensuring that we all get to fish more. It really stinks that for whatever reason all this is being compromised. Folks, we are heading into another El Nino - it got up to 67 in the ocean last year - and the abundance we've been seeing is likely over. Unless those hatchery fish keep getting marked I doubt that we will be fishing very much when the return rates inevitably drop

"So then if you've got a trout pond on your property that you paid to have stocked, should you share half of the fish with the local tribe?"

Yeah, if only! Nope, now were talking private waters. I'm talking public waters. Yes, Squaxin Island is the only place I have fished with net fisherman in the area. I only started fishing in the PacNorWest this year. From what it sounds it is similar everywhere.

Like I said, I think they do a fine job and my exposure to tribal fishing is very, very limited. So far I have had a ball fishing for salmon and did pretty good. I am really looking forward to next year!

There are lots of unclipped springers released from upper columbia hactcheries ,like Lyons Ferry,though they are marked in different ways that are hard to see visibly, so they can tell they're of hatchery origin,,and yes, they want as many of them to make it back upriver as possible.
As for squaxin is., think of all the people that have been hammering on them coho by the time they make it back to the pens,probably why they get so lock jawed.

This thread and the "Points to Ponder" thread are starting to dovetail together quite nicely...if you haven't read that one yet, do so, as it has a lot of information that is important to this thread.)

First off, there are tons of problems, some very, very severe, that arise when hatchery fish are allowed to spawn in areas where native fish, especially steelhead, are still hanging on. To assume otherwise is putting on blinders to the scientific data out there regarding the preservation and sustenance of native fish runs.

Pimpinshrimp, depending on the type of fish you're talking about, your statement about adipose fins ranges from almost, kinda right (major factory type salmon hatcheries) to dead wrong (almost all steelhead situations).

JacobF, the State does indeed require that all hatchery fish released from all of its salmon and steelhead hatcheries be clipped. However, the state is not in charge of federal or tribal hatcheries and cannot require that practice there. This, of course, doesn't mean that each and every fish is clipped, as most clipping still takes place by hand and when you get down to the last several fish in a large bin of water, it's tough to grab 'em, so they don't *all* get marked, just the very great majority.

Unclipped hatchery fish on purpose, however, is a different story. Counting those fish as "escapement" of native fish is just plain stupid...it's intended to de-list fish and increase harvest, nothing else. Increased harvest is one of the reasons we got here in this mess in the first place.

Unclipped fish are also cnr'd by us, but gutted and iced by tribal fishers. In a short-term economic goal situation (i.e., greed and politics rather than science managing fish runs), I wouldn't mark my hatchery fish if I were a tribal hatchery manager, either. More fish for me!!

BountyHunter, while those decisions have incredible impacts on anadromous fish management in the PNW, which have been discussed on this and other BB's many times, how many fish are released and how many of them are clipped are not even touched on in those cases. The only mention of hatchery fish at all pertains to the allocation of hatchery fish, i.e., are tribal fishers entitled to 50% of entirely hatchery produced runs? , and makes no reference to marking such fish or not.

BTW, the court's answer to that question is a short and curt "yes". I think WildChrome's response to the attempt in Oregon to actually end fin clipping is right on the mark.

Steve, as 4Salt pointed out, there is a lot more to the division of fish than just what fishermen see at the ol' fishing hole. The non-tribal share is not just caught at the pens near Squaxin...they're also caught in lots of other places in Puget Sound as they travel around.

Fish on...

Todd.

"Steve, as 4Salt pointed out, there is a lot more to the division of fish than just what fishermen see at the ol' fishing hole. The non-tribal share is not just caught at the pens near Squaxin...they're also caught in lots of other places in Puget Sound as they travel around."

Yep, I hear ya! I understand it goes on everywhere. I have seen small rivers with net floats all the way across. I wasn't fishing at the time, but I couldn't help but think "Gee, how can any fish get through that?" Certainly not 50%! I always wondered where do they get the stocks to raise? If they aren't using the roe from the fish they kill, are they buying it from somewhere?

signed-

Ignorant in Oly

I sure hope they're not buying eggs, but that's probably a bit naive to believe...outplanting of non-local strains makes any hatchery activity even worse (i.e., Chambers Creek winter runs and Skamania summer runs, Green River chinook in the Skykomish, etc.)

At least most hatchery programs need very few fish relative to the amount that return, so even intensely successful net or sport fisheries don't often cut into the necessary supply.

"Ignorant in Oly"? I think not.

Fish on...

Todd.