But I beg to differ Sparkey with your analogy about "Tranquility" and all that. I have both flyfished and tossed bait, and I can assure you that flyfishing has brought me no more pleasure than casting half a jensen-egg on a #10 hook behind 4 ft of 2 lb leader to a summer Steelhead lying in a quiet riffle. Then watching it slowly meander over and take it, and put up an aerial display unlike any other. I have also Flyfished on popular stretches of NW rivers and watched "Elitist" flyfisherman put a Teeny Nymph on a fast-sink line and snag the hell out of Salmon...... Flyfisherman do not have the exclusive on outdoor enjoyment, and most baitfisherman are just as much into the "outdoor experience" as any flyfisherman.....

MC

Me and my big old sled can find solitude all the time and no, I won't tell you where. :p

I see plenty of sled jockeys pull up to shore to grab trash you bankies can't get to. We do it all the time.

As for people, well, when you know many of them, it's rather nice to fish in a large group of friends. I don't do it all the time, but an occasional trip to the Cowlitz is fun.

Noise? my 4 stroke kicker isn't that loud.

Some of my best buddies like to fly fish Sparkey. I don't hold it against them.

This is a group of people trying to force others to do things THEIR way. You have to ask yourself, when will it be your turn?

My general opinion is that a certain enviro group wants only fly fishing and tribal fishing in our future.

MC is right on...This is not about two opposite extremes of which way it is "right" or "righteous" to fish. Just because I fish in a boat and don't use flies doesn't automatically mean that I am a greedy slob and spew garbage all over the place...how ridiculous is that theory? The crowds are caused by too damn many people moving here not whther they use bait or not. Too many slobs who disrespect the outdoor opportunities they have here.

When I talk about "boutique fishing" it is to make a point that some people would prefer to legalize fly fishing only C&R waters for their own semi-private use....One way of finding solitude for sure but not really fair...unless you believe like some do that their way is the only pure way to fish...and all others are wrong.

I would love to go to my favorite river, lake or stream and find the solitude I found in the 60s but it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. So I make the most of it. I would love to deport half this state and make it a law that no one else could fish within 5 miles of me but I know I can't do that. I would love to gather up all the WT people and all the groups like them and ship them to Cuba but that isn't fair either. Unfortunately this is America and all the people have a voice so all we can do is work onmaking things better without too much exclusion of others.

As to the equation of garbage to all non-flyfishermen of whatever the analogy is..I say educate those who violate..turn in the litter bugs and push for bigger fines. Stop the abusers. Don't blame everyone who fishes in a fashion you don't like.

Boutique fishing makes me think of the the finch creek hatchery show in the fall or even closer to home,chico creek.

I used to get a kick out of watching these boutique fishermen gear up in hoodsport for chums.Two hundred dollar vest crammed with everything that could be bought from a Belvue tackleshop,six hundred dollar fly pole and god knows how much in the reels, line and waders.All to snag a chum.But they are not snagging this poor fish only the gear guys are snagging.They can't be snagging because they are fly fishing.Used to drink beer at the model T and laugh at these arogant idiots.

I rarely fish bait so this would have little effect on me.I am still some what alarmed as sparkey says because of the total blanket ban.A blanket bait ban is not going to help the situation.Hook size,style regs would do more to help these smolt than a bait ban.I bet more smolt are killed with these little wire trebles than anything else!

Of courrse my favorite rivers are c/r exept two hatchery fish a day.No hatchery just dumped in to the tune of ten thousand youngins a year.No regulation on how you go about fishing in a c/r manner.Just make sure that you throw it back,lippless, gilless,bleeding to death smolt, on every cast, all summer untill they are gone.And these same people that put these regulations on these rivers are doing studies to determine why the chinook are on the ESA and why have the silver,steelhead runs all but disapeared.

Ya a blanket bait ban does not surprise me.

Banning bait on the Cowlitz id a dumb idea.
However banning bait on fisheries comprised largely of wild fish is always a good idea especially where fishing from boats is possible and allowed because of the whole bait diver thing. Here is the deal folks WDFW is on the hook for keeping our fish from going extinct. They aren't willing to do anything that really makes sence so they decide to just put it all on the backs of sport fishers just like always.
However this is decision they can easliy justify scientifically. The Canadians have had the foresight to study hooking mortality very seriously and what they found was that fish caught on bait,hooks with more than one point and barbed hooks all had a higher mortality rate than single barbless artificials.

I wouldn't support a blanked bait ban but certainly some river specific ones..

Also somoene mentioned that they didn;t like the length of the bait ban because it wasn't just the dummer steelhead season.. Well Apr 1 - Dec 1 is the summer steelhead season and actually if you are talking wild fish the summer steelhead season is Jan 01 - December 31. From thier perspective i'd say they probably think they are being very generous.

Maybe a trip for some of you to a commission meeting is in order!
===============================
Commission to receive report concerning banning of bait on rivers
By LINE GOESHERE
The Associated Press
June 4, 2003


Prohibit anglers from using bait on all "anadromous highways" that salmon and steelhead travel?

The Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission will receive a report on that issue Saturday, the second day of a two-day commission workshop in the state Natural Resources Building, 1111 Washington St. S.E. in Olympia.
Commission sessions start at 9 a.m. Friday and 10:30 a.m. Saturday.

Commission member R.P. Van Guytenbeek, who requested the Department of Fish and Wildlife to look into the matter, said he was not considering such a move for Washington's marine waters. A prohibition on bait there would eliminate mooching, probably the most popular method of fishing among Washington's marine anglers.

Van Guytenbeek said he was concerned about rivers, and the effect of bait there on outbound salmonid smolts.

"Those fish, when they are downstream migrants, are about as vulnerable as anything in the world," he said. "You throw something in front of them, and they grab it."

Bob Gibbons, the department's manager of inland anadromous fisheries, said the commission sought information about banning bait "in the summertime ... anyplace anadromous fish rear and migrate."

Washington regulations define bait as "anything that attracts fish ... by scent and/or flavor." This includes artificial lures dipped in scent.

Gibbons said he would make no recommendation.

"I'm just going to give them a briefing on all the issues that surround bait and bait bans," he said. "It's just a briefing-and-scoping kind of a deal.

"Then it will be up to the commission whether they want to take any other steps or not."

Washington law prohibits the commission from adopting rules "that categorically prohibit fishing with bait or artificial lures in streams, rivers, beaver ponds and lakes." However, it does permit the commission to adopt rules that restrict fishing methods "upon a determination ... that an individual body of water ... clearly requires a fishing method prohibition to conserve or enhance the fisheries resource ..."

Other items on the weekend agenda include briefings on commercial-fishing and shellfishing issues, public-safety cougar removals, and issuance of special trapping permits.

At 8:30 a.m. Saturday, the Washington State Bow Hunters will demonstrate use of adaptive equipment designed for archers with disabilities, in a session at Olympic Archery, 2726 Black Lake Boulevard S.W. in Olympia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think until someone can get their hands on the reasons for all this from WDFW all this talk about who and why is all speculation. There is always a conspirasy when WDFW asks for imput on proposed changes. I get a little tired of the AuntyM, Grandpa, driftboater, micro101, etc,etc seeing WT behind all the rocks in the road to fish recovery. At some point we will lose some of the opportunities we now enjoy to help wild fish recover. You can either be part of the solution or sit back and whine when decisions are made without your imput. Go to the meetings the 6th and 7th and see whats going on. There are alot of people outside of WT that put wild fish recovery above their own fishing oppotunities. As wild stocks dewindle so will your opportunities to fish as you do now. You need to get involved NOW, and not just your membership dues but volunteer time---- you can do the volunteer time now or pay the price later by reduced opportunity. It's simple GET INVOLVED- and b!tching doesn't cut it.

Jerry Garcia,

Seems to me you are ignoring one of the main purposes of forums. The exchange of ideas and information.

So if the topic involves a political discussion of something YOU feel is worthwhile, it's OK? I guess *****ing about wild steelhead release is somehow more noble?

Since I am still "new" to the fishing politics, I think you're being pretty quick to criticize.

Glad you finally spoke up and showed your bias though. The favoritism you show is pretty blatant.

Jerry Garcia!

One thing people need to rember is that bait kills smolts. There is lots of science to support this.

If those smolts are wild, then bait is a barrier to wild fish recovery. If you care about wild fish, then I think we as fisherfolks have a duty to do our part by not using bait where wild fish are in jepordy.

Assuming we want to be taken seriously as fishers, we can't just complain about tribal fishing, and commercial guys, and the habitat rapists without cleaning up our own house. Right now we kill wild fish smolts with our bait fishing. What regulations to put in place should be up to serious debate, but something needs to be done to protect at risk wild populations from bait.

It makes more sense to have some bait bans in the summer when smolts are feeding heavily than bans in the winter when they aren't feeding so much.

If we don't do something to protect wild fish, total bait bans may be what we get down the road.

I know some of you would rather fish bait or not fish at all, but times are a changing . . .

MC, AuntyM, et al.-

I never said I was up flyfishing these upper stretches nor did I say I was not flyfishing the lower river amongst the hordes.

I have actually had a good ole time parking at Blue Creek parking lot and fishing that water with the bugrod.

You folks are trying so hard to make this into a flyfishing vs. gear issue...it is NOT! This is about protecting our wild salmonids...and I think in the end it all boils down to what one values and that is what I was trying to imply.

Actually Sparkey, I don't think it's flyfisher's vs bait fishers. I think it's a mindset of some members on the commission.

Geoduck,

Please show me reference material that it is actually BAIT that kills. I fail to see how a sandshrimp tail would kill a smolt. I also fail to see how shrimp OIL will kill.

"that an individual body of water"

So they probably know what they are trying to do is illegal.

Mortality is mortality. If indeed there is a problem I would RATHER see whole systems closed than catering to one user group over another.

Aunty, I have no bias on this issue. I just don't see how Grandpa and others can assume that WT is behind the baitban discussions this weekend. And then also assume that if a person thinks [and works toward] that we need to be more proactive about wild fish issues that they are liberal? What a crock. And I certainly don't think that what I believe is more noble than any other cause. I just know that if we don't get involved now we will lose some of our opportunity to fish later. I am not nor have I ever been a supporter of WT, but I do think wild fish need more protection before It's too late. Don't presume to know me Aunty.

OK Aunty M,
I will spell it out.

Its not bait that kills. Its fishing with bait. We're not talking about banning fish feeding, we're talking about banning fishing with bait. There is a diffence, no?

The issue here is hooking mortality.

There have been lots of studies. The range varies from study to study, but bait caught stream trout are 5-10 times more likely to die than fish caught on artificial lures.

There have been lots of discussions the past year about hooking mortality. The studies are posted in these discussions. Look them up. Read them. Then tell me how bait doesn't kill.

I know you like to fish bait. I like to fish bait, too. However, I think the opportunity to fish is more improtant, than to fish with bait.

I would much rather have our sports allocation of wild fish come out of the population of returning adults that are killed as harvestable fish rather than those same fish having been killed as smolts due to hooking mortality from fishing with bait.

JG.....so much of all this is rhetoric,opinions, and conjecture...not absolutes. I don't see WT under every rock at all I see them as a special interest group with a narrow agenda..some good, some bad in my opinion. Just because they do some good for wild fish doesn't absolve them from criticism for the bad they do in the name of wild fish. Just my opinion , again.

As far as getting involved goes, do not assume that I don't because I do. I don't expect a badge of honor for doing so either. I dedicate a ton of time to issues relating to fishing. I put my money and time where my mouth is. Not on steelhead and wild fish exclusively either. Sports fishing in general.

As far as my political assumptions, many are wrong I'm sure but I truly believe that political or sociological biases do affect a person's take on the fishing issues we discuss here. The same people are on the same sides in the political debates as they are in the fishing debates. It is not a coincidence.

So you don't agree and that is your right. Thanks for atleast speaking out in favor of your biases and beliefs. I won't call them "bogus" or idiotic just different than mine. Using "wild fish" as the blanket for every decision is not reasonable. If every move a person makes does not revolve around the wild fish banner it doesn't mean that person is some sort of uneducated demon or greedy slob.

As far as the WDFW commission meeting on Saturday goes I think it would be educational for people to attend to see how the process works and how the commission acts when they get reports from their own department. Alot of times they make decisions in the opposite direction of the scientific reports and data. It isn't easy to figure out their motivation some times but many times it is. Politics and special interests have ruled their decisions for the most part.

In conclusion, I will say it again: We don't know each other personally in most cases here so miscalculations of the real person are pretty common.

Jerry,

I don't think I used the term liberal anywhere? Don't presume to know me either. In case you didn't notice, I consider THIS

to be a personal attack and not exactly the kind of thing a moderator should be doing. Why would you be critical of people using Bob's board for one of it's intended purposes? If you think posting about fishing politics in a fishing forum isn't a productive thing to do, perhaps you need to discuss that with Bob?

R.P. "Van" Van Gytenbeek

Van Van Gytenbeek was appointed to the Commission in February 1999 to serve a six- year term. He is the publisher of Fly Fishing in Salt Waters magazine in Seattle. He has more than 30 years of management experience in the private sector, is a retired artillery captain, and has authored two books on trout and streamside conservation. He is the former executive director of Trout Unlimited and has held various board or board memberships in a number of recreational organizations, including the International Fly Fishers Federation, American Museum of Fly Fishing, the American League of Anglers, and the Trout and Salmon Foundation. Van Gytenbeek and his wife Elizabeth live in Seattle. They have three children and one grandchild. (Van Gytenbeek's current term expires in December 2004.)

:rolleyes:

Geoduck,

Yeah, I use bait for sturgeon. Lures just aren't that effective. How would this stupid bait ban affect sturgeon fishing?

I use scent for steelhead. Perhaps YOU can explain to me how shrimp oil on yarn is going to kill smolt, but a small spinner ripped through the water won't?

I really question the validity of these "studies" because my own and others personal experience just doesn't add up to bait being the culprit. Pulling plugs and dragging caught smolts through the water is just as likely to kill. :rolleyes:

If there is a problem, then we should ALL stop fishing. I see no reason to allow a select group to continue fishing while excluding others on every river in the state for 8 of the best weather fishing months.

Well, it's pretty easy to understand. The jig almost always hooks the fish in the inside of the upper jaw, or the corner of the jaw. Both areas are tough and don't bleed. Same with the spinner. If you are using a number 3 spinner with a siwash hook, you may get pecked by smolts, but they usually don't hook themselves. Corkies and eggs are quite often taken deeply by the adult fish. The small hooks that folks use for summer sidedrifting are often swallowed by the larger smolts.

But you're missing my point. It is quite possible to catch lots of summer steelhead, without getting your hands messy. If the science indicated that a bait ban would protect fish, that doesn't mean that any of us need to worry about catching fewer fish. I put 50 fish in the boat in four days last summer, between two guys, without bait. So it can be done.

My own experience indicates that bait in the rivers in the summer kills smolts. Side drifting the skykomish, we always get several smolts. They are often badly hooked. I never get smolts on the jig. I rarely get smolts on the spinner, and they are usually lightly hooked when I do.

If you feel you need to use bait to catch summer steelhead, I guess Jerry is right - go and make yourself heard. I'm just a bit surprised that so many of you think this is a big deal. It's not like these fish are hard to catch. If you know where to cast the bait, you know where to cast the jig, and they'll bite it just as readily.

Nice try Silver Hilton but you STILL didn't address the issue. I am using scent. And I don't use 4's (vision 3's) or 2's. I use 1's and sorry, but if bait HOOK size is a problem, then let's address THAT issue.

Then there is the issue of fishing for sturgeon without bait.

Like I said, one group trying to exclude another. :rolleyes:

Wow,, whats the old saying? "can't stand the heat get outa the kitchen"

BTW,, I do get involved very much! commission meetings, committee hearings in Olympia, meetings with the Director and others. So please Jerry Garcia think you know me either!

How many meetings have you been to this last year? How many letters have you wrote?

I earn my opinions on issues by getting involved, learning from others, reading etc. etc. not just heckling from the sidelines! :rolleyes:

Truth Number One -- Bait kills smolts and kelts (especially true in summer months)

Truth Number Two -- So does gear and flies but not to the same degree usually.

Truth Number Three -- Nobody that matters cares what is said on internet boards. It is easy to be a loud mouthed expert who sees conspiracies behind every rock when you are typing on your pc for a small group of cronies that are just as ignorant as you. It might make you feel good but it doesn't change a thing. If you care about something, get involved in the political process and try and change it.

Truth Number 4 -- Ugly people should not have avatars.

I have posted this before but will do again not that I think a lot of people care about the science.

Mortality rates of trout
Trotter 1995 on Resident trout bait 31.40% Artificial Lures 4.90 % Fly 3.80%
Mongillo 1984 on Rainbows bait 30% Artificial Lure 10% Fly 10% (both lure and fly had 5%-10% so I used the high end to be fair)
Wydoski 1977 resident trout bait 25% Artificical Lure 5% Fly 5%

I am not an expert on these studies and I only used studies that looked at all three methods(Taylor and White in 1992 resident trout bait 43.6% and AL 5.10% and no fly). I also know the science doesn't interest most people but if you look at the data on trout which is what smolt basically are until they go out to see bait is at least 3 times higher mortality rate then artificials.

JJ