Yes, and I've heard employers often times say that the pay check is only a small part of your overall incentive package.

Unless one is familiar with someone else's posts going back 5 years.

I guess the nickname SOCIALIZED medicine is no longer PC.

Unless you folks have some witty and clever way to control costs, you have no idea what you're proposing. As it stands now, we can't afford out of control Medicare and VA healthcare. This isn't Europe. We can't force anyone in the healthcare industry to take far less than they earn now. Even if you do away with health insurance, the costs are prohibitive, because our expectations are out of line with what we can actually afford.

RE-THINK all you want.

403 more posts and counting down Aunty!

I don't believe everything that i think

I have long maintained that the one thing that will bring this nation to its' knees is the cost of providing healthcare to public employees and thier dependents. In the private sector, there is and has been a "product" that has in the price a portion of the profit that helps pay for these costs. In the public sector jobs (which the number of is in a constant state of increase) there is very little product.As the Baby Boomers hit the retirement age and are living longer, it will take an ever growing amount of the tax base to support these costs. I believe we are only one bad investment by those in charge of these plans to wipe out the reserves and put a lot of people out in the cold as far as thier coverage goes.
I have known only a few firemen and policemen who have retired any older than 50.Add in the retired servicemen who get out after 20-25 years and are only in thier late 40s. As medical costs increase the money to pay for it must increase also.It's a downward spiral. Just my take on it.

Too many people have blinders on. If every other industrialized nation can provide healthcare to its citizens, why--can't--we? Just healthcare. Not education, not mass transit. Just healthcare. As a "Christian nation," why won't we?

Americans won't accept the level of care that folks in other industrialized countries receive and we aren't tolerant of long lines and waiting periods. Last but not least, we aren't collectively WILLING to pay for it.

I'm amazed that some of you don't realize just how "poor" some of this socialized medicine is.

People saw Sicko and fell for the concept of care recieved in Cuba for one place. Do you think that was real or just an excellent commercial for the Castro political machine?

Rumor has it that when Aunty hits 10,000 posts the software on the board is not set up for it and the board will crash.

It's Y2K all over again.

Many economists agree that the uninsured are the cause of the high cost of medical care.

Unless the law is changed so that the uninsured do not get treated, everyone will pay their cost, it does not disappear. The cost of uninsured, & underinsured, or the insured that are so poor they can’t afford their portion of the bill who decide to wait to seek care hoping their condition will resolve itself who end up critical is in your bill.

A 99 cent pill taken for 10 days can prevents a 99 thousand dollar hosp stay. A cancer tumor caught at onset is much cheaper to treat than at stage 3. A cholesterol pill cheaper than a bypass, a diabetic receiving proper care is cheaper than a comatose or blind diabetic. Medicine is funny this way, an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure.

To assume that dying people do not find their way to ER & into the hosp is to deny the existence of self preservation or love of family. They will get there & they get there in an expensive condition. A person on Medicaid is a reimbursement to the doc at a significant lower $, and the difference is in your bill.

Health care is a right not a privilege, it must be since we have laws preventing non-treatment of critical, dying people.

We will bankrupt our country over health care if we do not find a smarter way to do it. No free lunch needs to be worked on US Health Care, wonder if anyone has. There is no free lunch cost is dispersed. Our current system disperses cost, pays for paper pushers, & gives big salaries & stock options to CEOs for ruining I mean running it all.

And there are probably just as many more that would claim malpractice suits and insurance companies are the cause of the high cost of medical care.

It's easy to explain the current crisis with just ONE word BWP.

PROFITS. Everbody wants a piece of the action.

I don't know where you got the idea that medical care is a right and not a privledge or an earned benefit, when people in other countries just want some clean water and a little food to eat.

Please explain to me why I should fund a families medical care if they are too poor to pay for it, but they can afford a new car, a big screen TV, cable, cell phones and high speed internet?

BWP,

Some good words there my man. I've heard from sources I thought credible that as affluent as we are as a nation, we really can't afford (on top of all the other national expenses we deem essential) the same high quality of health care that the middle class and up receive for every American and eligible alien. Yet our laws preventing the non-treatment option push health care costs to the brink of disaster.

I still think there's room among rational thinkers (currently estimated by me at about 5% of the nation's population -grin-) for a national plan that approximates what Oregon tried to do in the early 90s. The effort was led by a doctor turned state legislator. They prioritized every medical treatment on a list between 500+, with preventative measures at the top and "comfort" treatment for terminally ill, like AIDs and cancer patients. The plan required all of the state's health resource budget plus its share of federal Medicaid. Congress said no, so the plan went no where. But it's the closest to a viable universal health care plan anybody in the US has ever tried to advance. It acknowledges the broad social benefit of providing health care to all citizens, and that preventive medicine is the most cost effective medical treatment, and realizes that we cannot prevent people from dying, but can make them comfortable when they are. Clearly such a humane and cost effective health plan is out of synch with the majority of Americans who will only accept something that's not feasible, socially or financially, or remotely realistic.

Oregon has shown us that there is a smarter way to do universal health care, but it's so smart it lacks appeal to the irrational American majority.

Sg

I trust you have credible studies showing Americans actually know what level of care others receive. And they no doubt show the length of lines one stands in, or the waiting time for care. (Are they really shorter than emergency rooms here?) Of course that would mean these Americans would have actually had to experience care from another country and such, rather than simply follow blindly the Ayn Rand-esque rhetoric of neocon pundits.

A higher infant mortality rate, worse overall health, shorter life expectancy... all from easily found studies. Yet, I am amazed at how Americans choose to remain ignorant by continuing to follow the healthcare for profit agenda.

AuntyM, We pay now. We pay for the uninsured. Like you, I also do not want to pay for someone who goes out & buys a new car or big screen instead of health care but now I do, under the current system we pay.

Health care is a right not a privilege in the US where laws exist making it illegal to refuse treatment to a critical person. Being as I pay NOW I would rather pay for a $14.00 vaccine to prevent a disease instead of hospitalization & critical care treatment when the person who could not afford the vaccine becomes critically ill.

It is a sad fact that there are people in our world that lack food & clean water. I remember hearing Bill Gates talk about Malaria when he & his wife started their foundation. He described health in a global perspective, how disease of another is a direct concern to our health. It makes me wonder why in America we want to let people walk around sick & infecting many. Our economy is dependent on our health. We need to move from a system of sickness to a system of wellness, that won't happen until we cover all with preventative care.

The costs are so high. I couldn’t run a business where 1 out of 6 clients were unable to pay, not to mention the however many that can’t pay their 20%. Unless you marked your price to above that loss, you would lose money. That is not to mention the off the top discount the ins comp takes so probably have to mark up 40 %, and then another big % to cover those who can’t pay at all.

BWP, It's still just one word. Profit. Health care is one of the most profitable businesses in America. Unless you find a way to change the dynamics, nothing of what you propose is possible. Both political parties will protect the status quo and the profits that make your desires impossible to be met.

Just one example is the prescription drug companies who are allowed to market drugs that endanger us and charge us triple what they charge in other countries, just to make us dependants.

Also, you haven't determined where to draw the line. At what point do you tell someone they've recieved "preventitive" care that didn't work and they need more intensive, far more costly care that isn't covered? Doctors with investments in lots of technology will need plenty tests and procedures to insure they don't get sued. If those tests and procedures aren't covered, they WILL refuse to treat these people.

How will you force practioners to take less for those tests and procedures? As it is now, there are many doctors and clinics refusing to take medicare and Tricare patients because the reimbursment is less than half the going rate. I'm sure some doctors refuse medicaid as well. Emergency rooms may have to offer care, but doctors and clinics sure don't. Dentists routinely decline patients covered by the state too.

Your emotional appeal is very moving, but you don't understand the complexities and the profit motives and WHY it won't be allowed to happen. Think Hillary or Obama will help or US Congress? I'd bet big money they won't do anything meaningful.

GH, I suggest you research what citizens in Canada, Britain and Australia have to say about their healthcare systems. It's rarely positive.

You know I already have, and it's virtually no different than what people complain about here. People will complain, regardless. But the studies clearly show that the United States falls behind other countries in matters relating to healthcare.

AM, you have virtually the same healthcare I do. I thank the Lord everyday for being so fortunate, and I want to see my fellow Americans as blessed as I. I don't understand why you wouldn't want your fellow citizens to be as secure in their healthcare as you are.

Yeah, I think all Americans should get partially paralyzed from a surgery and hooked on narcotics for the rest of their lives. It's a real blast living with the repurcussions.

Oh, so this is simply sour grapes derived by adverse reactions to some treatment. I'm sure you first discussed the inherent risks of that treatment with your doctor, no?

Following your example, then, there should be millions of Americans in the for-profit healthcare system that are just as vehemently campaigning against the present US system.

I'll guarantee you that there are tens of thousands of Americans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan daily that wouldn't trade their healthcare for any other.

I have personal experience with health care in Canada, as my wife is Canadian and we have a lot of relatives up there. Our family ranges from my wife's 90 year old Grandma to our 5 year old Grandson. Healthcare is not free in Canada. You pay according to what you make. I have had my wife in the ER up in New Westminster and in Overlake ER. I was pretty impressed with the quality of care she got in New West and not so impressed with the miss-diagnosis she got at Overlake.

Yes, there are lines for non-life threatning treatments like knee replacement, shoulder surgery etc., however for anything life threatening the care is instant and excellent. Some Provinces are better then others. The care in Alberta is much better then in B.C., according to my wife and now her mother who moved to B.C. last year from Alberta.

The only complaints I have heard from Canadians is that private health care is starting to worm it's way in. There was a lot of controversy over a private clinic that opened in Vancouver a couple of years ago. The idea is being sold on the concept that it will relieve the lines for non-life threatning treatment, but instead it will probably draw Doctors away from the public system.

Is their system perfect? No. Is our system perfect? No. Read today's Times about the shortage of Primary Care Physicians down here. Apparently there isn't enough money in Primary Care.

I have 100% paid for top of the line health Insurance through my employer. The premium is around $1200 a month. Since my wife moved down here she has had numerous MRIs trying to diagnose a back problem, that still goes un-diagosed, but Docs here have no problem spending my employer's insurance. She was actually healthier under the Canadian system.

I realize it is a nearly impossible task to re-do our healthcare system and I am not advocating one thing over another. Our system and Canada's have their pluses and minuses. But if you are looking at overall longevity and quality of life, our system is not the leader, except in costs.

Sour grapes? As is usually the case, you ASSume. I wasn't referring to myself, I was refering to my spouse. I wonder if you would be bragging if it were YOUR spouse that had been partially paralyzed? Not bloody likely. And I doubt I would be NASTY to you if the situation were reversed. You really are a piece of work.

Yeah, the Military Medical is doing the very best they can at the immediate MTF's overseas. That is, until these guys get home.

Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

I think there are a whole lot of guys who would dispute your claims. A great deal of them would also tell you to FOAD, knowing your political beliefs.

What about our senior citizens that live below the poverty level and are thrown in isolation, so I say take a senior citizen fishing in your area, they have alot of great stories for us and should all be taken noticed. I have a Grand mother in law that is over 100 years old and I take her to church every Sunday so thats why you don't see many pictures or post from me about fishing because I sacrifice one of my 2 days off so I can take this fine lady somewhere she needs to be and devote my time for her so she can be in good company. She's too old for fishing ,but tells me the times when she was a young girl and used to fish the Eochoman, Grays and Naselle rivers when there was no cars , just horses and the Steelhead and Salmon that abound in the rivers in those days . She is the last of the Pioneers of the Cathlamet area. If you ever fish out of Cathlamet , stop at the museum there and checkout the old photos of draft horses pulling in huge Chinook in nets!