Political pull, hatcheries, harvest........

I think we should re-think our goals..........

careful what you ask for.........

Sounds like some ones fishing here!

He makes a great point, other than selective harvest abilities... Without gillnets what's the point of hatchery fish? The gillnetters political ability has slowed an "all natural" approach to fishing. Without gillnets we're headed towards no hatchery fish...

It's a catch-22 in my book!

Keith

glad to see someone thinking here......not trying to stir the pot, just thinking outloud, again.....I feel we should be VERY careful what we ask for...nothing is as it seems!!!!!!!

There are no gillnets on trout lakes yet they are still planted. The precedent is set to continue providing sport fisherman with hatchery fish to harvest when commercials are not around.

Keep dreamin, what commercial value does a planted trout in a lake have???
Wake up......

Dumb people will buy anything...

you mean, will buy into anything...

Plenty, to the businesses that rely on the folks trying to catch those little stockers.

Who?? sportsmen whorehouse, cabelas, yeah they are real active in the powers of fisheries mgmt..................

Bottom line...Who has the most influence on anadromous fish harvest????

I'm perfectly fine with not having hatcheries. If it means no netting then I'm for it...

WOW........did not realise some sportsmen were this lost......are you for real, how long have you been a fisherman........no netting means no sport fishing.......in the REAL world anyway.............................

We can all dream about the day that there is no commercial harvest and everyone can go to the river and grab a limit ..............yeah, right................

Gee the same thing happenned to the Coho fishery in Tillamook Bay. No gillnet coho fishery, no more hatchery coho.

What bothers me is the signs I saw up all over the Sportsman Shows:

Save Our Wild and Native Fish

What about our HATCHERY FISH?????????

Different strokes for different folks.
Each system requires and deserves different guidelines.
The thought of removing all hatcheries or, all rivers need hatchery fish is painting a very complex painting with a very broad brush.
That is, for lack of a better word… stupid.

Very interesting isn't it...

I've fished through many of years and can remember some phenomenal fisheries only to have hatchery plants cut... The sad thing is it was done to help replenish the true wild stocks. Now we catch a handful of wilds vs a few back then.. Think about it, the Cowlitz hatchery steelhead are slowly on the way out too.

Now when you talk about salmon we're on a slow and windy road to hell..

How much do you want to bet that "if" and when the gillnets get yanked from the Columbia the hatchery silver plants in the Lower Columbia will be on their way out too... Any takers?? I mean seriously, why are they planted in the first place?? Is it the annual snag fests we see on all the rivers??

Keith

Some very good points guys, we really need to be careful with this whole situation, I feel if it is a hatchery based system, i.e. cowlitz, lewis etc. it should be managed as that, and to its fullest potential, keep thinkin.......

Here's what people have to decide. In the columbia the limiting factor that closed the fishing below Bonniville was the incidental impacts of ESA listed salmon. To allow better opportunities in the future at surplus hatchery chinook we have 2 options allow Wild chinook to continue to decline to a point of no return and then beef up the hatchery plants for both sport and commercial use. Number 2 is to get down to the real issue's and fix the habitat that Wild Salmon are lacking today. If you increase the number of wild Salmon your incidental impact takes longer to reach and your able to harvest more hatchery salmon in the process. And maybe you are able to remove the ESA listing at some point. Commercial and Sport fisherman want the same thing that is more opportunity at those available hatchery salmon. So I can see them being an ali in the process. Valuable time is being wasted fighting the columbia gillnetters in what looks to me like a pure allocation grab while that limiting factor remains the same. I would prefer option 2 but it really looks like a difficult task that most are not willing to take.

You can fix all the habitat you want, but until Alaska and Canada ocean commercial fisherman are finished, you aren't going to get any sustainable numers coming back at all. A good year would depend upon wether or not their nets were out when that certain rivers return was swimming past. Hell, you can even see that happen with hatchery returns. Looks at the Kalama and the Lewis this year compared to last. Hmmm, wonder why the difference, well those runs were already sold from a commercial boat in Alaska or Canada a couple of months ago. Probably those runs were just bycatch from bottom trawlers.

Seriously though, we've been preaching this for years upon years.... Let's do this or that to get the wild fish to come back.. Quick question though... Where are they??? Every system's true native fish returns are spiraling right down the toilet bowl!

I say we pull down on the flush lever and go nuts on hatchery plants!

Keith

HEY! Let’s do this, let’s take some of the MILLIONS OF DOLLARS that we put towards these spiraling native runs and boost up our hatchery counts just like the cow used to be in the good ol days!

The fishing is ridiculous open one day closed the next huge return one year horrible return the next.

If we as a collective group don’t take the initiative to take care of some of this stuff then who will?

When I go fishing I go to catch not release. Native fish are a great fish, yes more powerful, generally bigger and yes they are the native strain. But what’s the point if there are hardly in there? and if there are and we cant fish them?

I think that scinario would please alot of sport fisherman and commercial fisherman. Everyone agreeing to that is still up in the air. I have to agree with you guys in relation to the columbia you can stop gillnetting today and those dams will still be there and will continue to hinder any wild salmonids. So why not just write them off and go hog wild. As much as I would love to see wild salmon again I think we have made it so they will never thrive again.

Salmon without rivers...

I've always believed restoration of native stocks should fall second to my angling enjoyment.

Hatchery fish all the way. Native fish will be all hatchery spawners in a few years anyway, let it be and plant the crap out of them all over. Lets have fun and hammer down. Natives are gone.

Red, where is the $$$$ going to come from to do this. Didn't our Gov just veto a bill that would have supplemented $$$ for our hatcheries?

No $$$ no hatchery fish to plant.

I have never thought that taking out the gillnets might actually be a bad thing. It makes senes that there would be a decreased need for hatcheries if there were a large piece of the harvest taken out. As you take out more pieces of the harvest; you have no need for a hatchery. Now to correctly remove or balance the pieces is a huge mess. Which piece to take first. Dams, gillnets, predators, ocean comercial/sportman, river sportsman? Removing any of them would help the fish but piss somebody off.

CCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


New Chapter startup (KITSAP) #13 in Wa State

:2cents:

I don't know Jerry. Just trying to be realistic, natives runs are losing fast, they will be gone soon and noone will be able to fight for them anyway. Lets focus on some fact instead of a bunch of crap every year.

The use of hatcheries to replace native fish has been tried for years. Read salmon with out rivers or king of fish. It doesn't work. We as humans have this misguided notion that we can do things better then momma nature but we can 't.
Also I would be ashamed of myself if I let an animal that has survived millions of years through ice ages and volcanoes wink out during my life simply because I greedily chose to harvest more fish.

That's great, in reality everyone supports your thought's but mother nature doesn't... As long as the world (along the west coast) rapes and pillages the resource we will need hatchery fish OR WE WON'T BE FISHING MUCH LONGER....

But if that's what it takes I'm going to become a world renown Walleye fisherman!

Keith

I can't believe you guys are even talking about letting the wild fish go extinct. Makes my stomach turn as a sportsman and conservationist. I'm wondering how you are going to try and explain that to your grandkids. "Yes Johnny, I thought it was a good idea to let the wild fish go extinct just to I could fish more and/or make a dollar." If the wild fish mean so little to you, or they are hindering you're ability to make a buck, then by all means quit fishing for salmonids and go chase those walleye.

Everyone is looking to blame someone or something on poor returns. When the fish runs were fat in 2001, we were all living a dream. The fish runs have historicly run in cycles. Yes, this may be some of the most depressing runs we've witnessed in a few years, but nothing compared to 30 years ago. At least for the Columbia.

I follow the Oregon Coast fall and spring runs very close. It was just a few years ago (2004) that we had fall and spring runs that were the highest in decades. They are in a slump now because mother nature messed with our ocean currrents in 2004,5,6. Durring those summers, the jetstream was so far to the North that it created a counterclockwise roation of the Ocean currents, which pushed tons of warm waters way too far north. With those warm waters came visious predators that fed on our salmon smolts.

We can blame all we want on the Ocean commercial fisheries, but how do we explain the banner years of 2000-2004. Were the commercail fleets not fsihing then? They fished just as much then as now. The key was the excellent ocean conditions that fed our salmon to a healthy lifecycle.

I can recall those NW winds every summer that hammered the coast. We lost those upwelling winds in 2004,5,6. Durring those summer months, the valley temps would get to 90+ and in a typical NW wind cycle. The caost would be fogged in all day long. 2004-6 the coast had soaring temps close to 90. This was a direct result of the counterclockwise ocean currents created by the extreme northern shift of the jetstream. Last summer those NW winds were back in force, just as they are starting to do again this spring.

This fall will see the result of the 2005 poor ocean conditions. We should see an improvement in 2009 fall seasons with a healthy 3 year old fish. The 4 year old fish will still be in trouble. 2010 will see a huge recovery for all year classes. The spring run is a 3 year cycle and that is why we had a decent showing of 2 salt springer in the Columbia. Next season should be a good showing of 2 & 3 year fish.

It doesn't matter how many fish you plant, if the garden that feeds them is sterile or lacking of food, they will not make it. When the Ocean recovers, like it has done for the last two years, you will see some great returns.

Steelhead return in 2 years, and the runs we had this winter are evident of how the ocean conditions were improved bigtime.

Yelloweye, seriously if you only had a clue... You're blinded by dreams and wishes that all have with our native fish returns. It's easy for you to say what you've said. I can't wait for the day that "ALL" hatchery fish are actually clipped. It discusts me thinking about how we've been trained to beleive that so many of our salmon runs are "native" when an extremely large percentage of them are actually just hatchery mis-clips.

Let's all open our eyes for a second..........

The commercial industry is indeed what justifies large scale hatchery production in much of the Columbia. In Puget Sound, it is the Tribes. With the push to "recover" wild fish so politically correct, the mitigators, NOAA, and even WDFW would love to have the slightest reason to reduce hatchery production and save some money for "habitat", for fish that have virtually no chance of providing viable harvest opportunity.

So really, what's next?????

The writing is on the wall, there are more closures this year than I've seen in my 32 years of age........

Keith

Kevin,

I agree with you 100%. I do believe that this is just a down cycle. The issue is whether good ocean conditions are enough to bring back runs that are on the brink. Unfortunatly that is not the case. Columbia Hatchery spring chinook harvest levels are always going to be affected by ESA listed species. Until habitat is corrected and those runs are rebuilt it doesn't matter how many hatchery fish we get back because of favorable ocean conditions we will never take full advantage of the surplus of hatchery fish.


To this day I have yet to see anybody in a leadership role at the fed or state level make it a priority to fix the problems that man has caused. Part of that is sportsfisherman have different agendas and can't agree on what the real issue's are. This november is an important oportunity to elect people that will truly want to help save wild salmon and then actually act on it. I am tired of the lip service from our elected officials. These people control the money for habitat restoration.


Yelloweye

I personally think that the dams will never allow for the rebuilding of Native stocks on the columbia and those dams are not going anywhere in our lifetimes. In that watershed I don't see much else that can be done other than to boost hatchery plants to allow more harvest opportunities for both sport and commercial.

HMMMMMMmmmmmmm.........very nice to see the wheels of reality turning here, A question to a few here that are not afraid of replying to this thread, What are you willing to give to have a river full of "uh um" native fish? mis clips nail it on the head! they are what hey are............again, we as a group need to be careful what we are asking for.........

The four H's that are so often preached about on the depletion of Columbia River salmonids really only boil down to two. Harvest (which includes hatcheries) and habitat (which includes hydroelectric dams).

The reason the fish continue the downward spiral is our addiction to harvest and our addiction to abusing the river ecosystem for the "necessities" of modern society. The past 125 years chronicle a deplorable historical record of man's incapacity for self-restraint when it comes to managing salmon.

This thread is a perfect example of how the harvest addiction (sport and commercial) is very much alive and well. I'd say it's about damned time we all suck it up... sport AND commercial. Take the lumps now while we still have a chance at recovery. The longer we keep putting it off (125 years and counting), the more painful and difficult it becomes.

If folks hadn't been so damned short-sighted and taken those lumps earlier, we would only bitching about runs depleted from 16 million to 8 million. Are we gonna keep dragging our heels until there are so few salmon left that we just throw up our hands and say to hell with it?

Seems a few of you are more than willing to prematurely drive the last nail in the coffin while live fish are still banging at the lid from within.

We have a century of proof that hatcheries are NOT the answer.... they're merely there to feed the harvest addiction.

with Francis.

Fancis,

If we have been on such a spiralling down cylce,how does one explain the robust years of 2001-2004. The willamette had almost 100,000 springers pass the falls. That is the HIGHEST ever recorded in history. Not only were the springers in great numbers. The fall fisheries at the coast were some of the best I've seen in years. My Dad who started fishing the Oregon coast in 1963, claims the fall runs were no better in 63 than they were in 2003,4,5.

Seriously there are years of great runs and some that just stink,,,thats expected to happen. However why are we trying to revive an already dead native fishery??? They are only going to have to swim past hundreds of nets, pass thousands of birds and then at the end deal with us and after they do there deed they deal with how many other things?

If we are wanting to have some substantial runs we in my opinion are going to have to plant hatchery fish heavily. Whether or not we clip the fins or not why would it matter? Let’s plant the heck out of every major river system and keep the fishing ways as they are and then let’s talk about how many fish are heading back to each river year and year out.

What the heck do you think we've been doing for the last 150 years? Do any of you have ANY idea how many MILLIONS of hatchery salmon are dumped into our rivers, year after year? The bigger hatchery fish compete with native fish for habitat and food in the river AND in the ocean. They attract huge amounts of predators, they succumb to disease quicker than natives, and they compete on spawning beds, but rarely are successful at reproduction.

It isn't working. It will NEVER work.

The only reason sport fishers are getting any seasons now, is because WE can selectively fish. If you stop trying to save the wild fish, and opt for hatchery only, like the commercials WANT you to, there will be nothing but blood baths with NO restraint on the part of commercial and tribal fishers, from AK, to BC and in every single coastal and inland fishery.

Sport fishers will still be left with crap and STILL whining.

Get fricken real people.

Francis

I agree Hatcheries do no work in regards to rebuilding Wild runs, But they have absolutely been effective in allowing a harvestable fish where without them no fishing would be taking place at all. Mistakes were made in the past when hatcheries were considered the saviour and no doubt they have done considerable damage. To this day I have seen very few plans that have a chance at reversing these mistakes. Some will say ban hatcheries, which most on this board will disagree with. Some will say stop harvest even though some biologists will say that it will have very little effect. To me the dams will forever hinder any recovery. But we have alot of other rivers that are just in need of some serious habitat restoration, why hasn't that been taking place to a point that we have seen some success. Where is the progress. I really don't see anything changing in our lifetimes other than wild runs continuing to dwindle while our oportunities dwindle with them.

Somebody smarter than me please come forward with a plan that can work and I am all ears. Until that time I am all in favor of providing opportunity that keeps people interested in the sport.

Kevin, If you or anyone else knows what is the current status of the Coho Fall Salmon in the Tillamook area? There hasn't been a commercial coho harvest there in years thus no heavy hatchery plants.

No heavy hatchery plants there Marsha, so hows the status of wild fish in the Miami, Trask and Wilson? Anybody know?

It would be interesting to take a few river systems in several geographical areas on the NW and remove the Hatchery Production problem, Sportfishing and commercial fishing, and create a ton of pure pristine Habitat and then leave it alone for 12 to 15 years and then see hoe Mother Nature responds.

I'm with Kevin on this. The Ocean is a Habitat that is the hardest to maintain and keep healthy for our salmon (wild and Hatchery). El Nino and El Nina both affect the Ocean. How do we control that? And please don't give me an Al Gore Answer, Global Warming!

Another question that needs to be looked at is How many of these rivers really had "actual" naive fish in them? Did Drano ever have wild Spring Chinook in it or was it planted just for Harvest by sporties and commercials in the lower river? how about Wind? Lewis? Kalama? How about Youngs Bay in Oregon? ( Go ahead Vince Chime in!) Klatskanie? I do believe that the Cowlitz and Willamette are the only True rivers that had Native Wild Spring Chinook in them.

One thing I do kow about planting Hatchery fish heavily. The Cowlitz always has an excellent summer steelhead return from plants of 500,000 smolts or more. Last summer was Horrible. The plant was less than 200,000.

Now we are complaining about the poor returns to the Lewis, Kalama, Cowlitz, Wind and Drano. But look at the plant numbers. Are they lower, equal to or higher than previous years? Yakima River 10,000 springers expected. Are they Wild or Hatchery? The Snake 154,000 springers expected, are they wild or hatchery.

Is there one system or answer for saving any of it or do I believe what my Grandfather told me during the Boldt years. Catch as many as you can now cause one day you aren't going to be able to anymore.

I have no idea, but it REALLY has little to do with the overall picture Jerry. Nobody ever claimed hatcheries were the ONLY problem, and some of you seem intent on making it so, or making it look like I am trying to. I was responding to the idiotic notion of ignoring the native fish in favor of hatchery fish.

WDFW tells everyone and his brother to expect great returns on the "C" this year. Do you suppose BC took FULL advantage of such an announcement? Damn straight they did. Everybody wants their share and nobody wants to make a sacrifice. It would be real interesting to sample the BC catch, eh? Wanna bet the majority of the springers caught came from the lower "C" rivers, AGAIN?



Read Bob's sticky post at the top of the forum and the answer is contained there.

Aunty,

What's your solution? Where is the model that will lead to a rebuilding of wild stocks.

There is no way to make a blanket statement about native or hatchery fish. We just need to use a little common sense and absolutely save what we can and what is thriving wild for sure. We really need to manage each and every river and body of water for what they each are, and go from there. There is no way to blanket rule all of them, that would be ignorant.

[/quote]
WDFW tells everyone and his brother to expect great returns on the "C" this year. Do you suppose BC took FULL advantage of such an announcement? Damn straight they did. [/quote]

So did the Cananians just selectively harvest the lower Columbia springers, (Kalama Cowlitz and Lewis) leaving all the rest to show up below Bonneville this season. No I don't think so.

I think those upriver tributaries were Planted Heavily with Springers and the lower tribs had so-so plants. Rumor has it on the Lewis and Kalama that Hatchery managers were so worried about the poor return numbers for Tule fish that the maximized raising them at the hatcheries leaving very little room for raising springers in the ponds.

Again are these river supporting wild springers or are they just mis-clips cause Mother Nature never put any there in the first place. if so plant them heavy with Hatchery Springers.