Reduce the Hatchery plants, and you and I can start looking for another recreation as well as job.

Maybe I can become a pro poker player and catch some cards on the River!LMAO

For the same reason 99.99% of hatchery fish are planted ANYWHERE... to feed the harvest addiction.

You guys can justify your stance with all the best of intentions, but over the past century and a half, more wild fish have died at the feet of "the best of intentions" than most of us can fathom.

Just add this one to the list of the other 1001 cuts that are killing the fish with the best of intentions.

Here's another question Keith, Why was I told last year that 90% of the wild fish in the lewis were actually hatchery fish (not clipped) with wire nose tags in them? I was told this by both the Cedar creek hatchery Manager as well as 2 checkers on the river.

When asked why they were not clipped, I was told so they could get the tags back at the hatchery instead of in the field.

So for all you out there that believe these fish compete for habitat and co-mingle with wild fish, why would our hatcheries due this and add to the problem? What if these fish don't get into the hatchery? What if they Stray and spawn somewhere?

I think they could do better than this.

If Hatcheries are the problem Doc, are the stocks on the Kenai and Nushagak in AK dwindling? If so its not because of hatchery fish but the Harvest rate I feel is pretty intense. Soldotna is packed the last 2 weeks of July with fisherman.

Uh and there's another place that I disagree. It has everything in the world to do with Revenue or the all mighty $$$$......

Keith

And the bottom line is that harvest opportunity IS money! Can you honestly disagree with that?

Ok Keith here is some info that I think you and everyone else will find useful. Its for Steelhead though and not Springers.


http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/harvest/06-07/smolts.htm

Why does it take the WDFW 5 years to produce catch record reports for Salmon but they know that we caught 20,000 springers in a month and can keep a running tally on the sportcatch.

Look at the last 5 years plant numbers on steelhead and then compare that to how well you all did fishing/catching adults. Lower the plant number the poorer the fishing.

The Cowlitz is a prime example for summer fish.

It's not the sportsman I'm trying to argue that with. I agree with you. It's the mother government and state that will see it differently....

Keith

Sure it is and now with the Columbia closed because of ESA listings the revenue in those area from fisherman is way down. Are these fish truely native stock needing ESA protection? Or are they just hatchery fish the states chose not to clip making them wild. Maybe we need a DNA test on some of these rivers!

Its like getting a DWI. The aftermath is about the education and not about the thousands of dollars you are forced to spend on an attorney, court costs and counseling. BS its about the $$$

WERE SCREWED! We need more hatchery plants and people to pull there tree huggin heads out of there azz's and smell the coffee..less fish in the river = less money...

We are a money driven country more fish=more money

Doc,

The question is can we erase the past and fix the problems that we created. If your answer is no than there is no need going back and rehashing it. Plain and simple the dams will never allow wild fish to thrive. If you have info that contradicts that I would love to hear it. What we are doing today just is not working. An increase in harvestable fish in the columbia and it's tribs would do wonders for sport opportunities not only in the river but in the ocean as well. Of the 90+ posts here I have yet to read any that has a viable solution to the problems that exist with the columbia basin. At this rate 50 years from now we are going to be debating the same things and nothing will be done. There is no model to fix these problems.

Gee great idea Fish Stalker. More Fish would mean that I would be guiding today instead off typing, thus spending more money on gear, jetboat fuel, diesal, food, and such thus helping our economy b spending money so someone else could then spend the money.

I think they call it Pay It Forward!

Zillions of dollars have been spent on this debate... You'd think they'd have turned the native runs around by now....

Keith

hold up

K basically lets see here Keith, you and me the last three post 40 grand a piece in boats = 120 K thats no gear no fuel no BEER and no bait...let me ask you what your gonna spend your money on when fishing keeps getting worse? more gear? YA I think not...get real tree huggin sissies with dollars in your pockets lookin at flowers and deer and lets get reel and plant some stinkin chrome to go home...A MEN

Yeah, the Native runs are in the toilet(salmon/steel) F&G arent planting as many fish as the "good ol' days, so therefore we arent getting as many fish to catch and bonk.

I say f*** the hatchery fish. Im tired of catching puny winters and summers, cookie cutter salmon. Out of all the fish ive ever caught, I remeber 4 fish like they were kooked yesterday, and guesw what? I gaurantee you they were all pure strain Natives.

1. First steelhead - Late March during C&R season on the Sky - Native

2. 34X23 Coho - Native

3. 50+ lb Fall Nook - Coastal River - Native

4. 24+ Winter Steel - Late Feb... Native

Yeah, ive caught enough hatchery steel that went 13-16 but they are few and far between and who cares. I believe 100% that there are true Native strains of salmon and steel, but they are dwindling.

If you are a sportsman, you put your own interest aside from reality and try to save whats left. The Nates have survived thousands of years of turmoil, its not our place to end it all...

Bass and Walleye??

Dude because it has a fin doesnt make it native. Whatever though as a sportsman and it being a new generation I want to see change for the better. Better being more fish more fish meaning hatchery.

New generation of thinking? YGTBFK, right?

Even when there were bazillions of fish, it wasn't enough. Even back in the 1870's, a new generation of "thinkers" figured they needed even more, and ushered in the era of unbridled fish culture in the PNW. The prevailing thought then, as you seem to think now, is that the best way to make more fish is to simply make more fish.... as Montgomery so aptly titled his chapter "better than natural"

Well here we are 130 years later, fooling ourselves into the same dangerous conceit that we can merely manufacture fish at will. Kind of reminds me of a SNL spoof of a Smith Barney commercial... only it was about the Federal Reserve.



The comedian comes out doing his best John Houseman impersonation, " At the Federal Reserve we make money the old-fashioned way..... WE MAKE IT!"

Doc, seems to have worked for the winter hatchery steelhead fishery on the Cowlitz back in the early '80s at Blue Creek. Then they split the plant in half to create an upper (Barrier Dam) summer fishery and the winter fishery went in the toilet. proof that Massive hatchery plants produce pretty good fishing.

Then came the idea that wild fish need to be saved in the Cowlitz Basin so are summer hatchery plant gets cut and last year summer fishing was the worse I have ever seen it. this summer we will see how good it is from a return from a massive hatchery plant. The last one by the way because of the new FERC license. Its not about returning the Native fish, its always about the $$$$. Follow the $$$$$

I guess its pretty simple. you either have to save the true native fish, create a bunch of wild fish at the hatcheries (no ad-clip) or forego all that and plant hatchery fish.

I don't see how you can have both.

One thing I do know is that every year the seasons get shorter to fish recreationally, the returns get worse and one day we will be looking at all of are rivers as being closed to fishing of any kind.

Is there any $$$$ in that?

How many mis-clipped 20+ steel have you ever caught? You think all those Skeena River giants have hatchery blood in them? How bout the 40lb and up Nookies? Hatchery??? Dont think so....

If netting and sportfishing had to stop to bring back the Nates then so be it...