If you fish the Satsop...

There is a large tree completely across the river at cook creek corner. May be able to muscle a Driftboat around it on gravel bar but sleds can't pass. No part of tree is submerged. Be careful out there.

Thanks for the heads up although we normally don't run up that high. Good for some fritters to know. Especially that the rivers are on the drop. Probably going to be quite a few people doing that float this weekend.

Oh yea!!! I'll be floatin tomorrow love having a pontoon.

Looks like no problem if you know what your doing. Drag around to the right and row away from the corner. Might be interesting to see where that tree will land up with some more high water.

About 10' from the butt, you just need to get a running start in the DB. I hope it ends up deep in the tail out, and the current creates a nice trough under that root ball.
It will keep the sleds out until they cut it, last trip down, we had 7 sled all the way to the middle fork, in skinny water. I was anchored with my dad, fishing a skinny pocket, all sleds slowed to pass, but Swanny, and he ran full tilt boogie about 6' away. His wave left my boat high and dry on the gravel, and a deep bruise on my 74 year old dad's fore arm, as he crashed into the gunnel. We will meet again.....

It doesn't look that easy to me. It's hard to tell, but it looks like other logs could be blocking an easy access to the gravel bar to drag a boat. I'll guess that some enterprising young angler with a chain saw will have the problem taken care of soon. I don't think that tree is going anywhere for awhile unless someone works on it.

I have heard, that is not the only problem

dang that looks pretty bad, wonder how many holes have changed

Lemme know if you try that, I'll watch from the road in a lounge chair while eating popcorn. Either that or what bankbum said and row down in my pontoon.

I have hoped over for years. This river has had it's share over the years. If I fish it this weekend, I will let ya know, but once on other side, ya gotta deliver the popcorn.

Really though always error on the side of caution.

Can't wait till morning, the boat is ready, and the water is gonna be prime, not this drift though

Running start, hit it straight, shift weight and balance forward at the apex of the slide. Totally doable. My money is on Matt

Have fun out there tomorrow Matt. Good luck,


SZ

I just got back from checking it out. Good luck with the drift boats! Looking from the beat angle i could get, looks like maybe 4ft gap between the roots. As the river drops over night that will shrink very fast. The tiny little pool of water infront of the root is very shallow.

I'll build a ramp with plywood!. Get a good head of steam and just slide up the plywood and roll over the back side.

Picture does little justice for the tree. The part where you guys are talking about getting a running start at is a couple feet out of water. It'd be like hitting a wall.

Yes it is not anything you could get a running start at. The tree is fully supported by both banks aswell. So it will only get more exposed with the dropping water.

Or if you want to fish up high just launch below cook creek out of the slough there. That might have filled in though. Havnt launched there in a few years.

We launch a couple of times in the slough with the water level up it is
not a problem its a little bit of a drag but if the water is low its alot of work!!

My money is on Matt also. As for the tree I bet it gets cut out today.....Boook it.Good luck,

SZ

I have never seen so many rude assclowns floating over, running over, and drifting thru and fishing your water for you as I have seen on the Satsop...and I've fished a lot of rivers with a lot of assclowns floating around on them.

Fish on...

Todd

I live on the Satsop but don't fish it because of this

I was just having this same conversation with a Buddy. I grew up fishing Puget sound rivers, the cowlitz, and in the big bad skok......and I have never witnessed such rude people as I do on the Satsop and wynoochee.
90% of the problem I see is the locals. If they don't recognize you they are complete assholes to everyone. It took 3 winter seasons living out here before I finally seen a change of attitude towards me and acceptance as a "local" of sorts.

And The out of town crowd has no respect for the river itself and fishing ethics that's I've seen. So use to combat fishing Puget sound rivers they are accustom to giving no room to their fellow anglers.

Fishing the Satsop sucks. Way too many people and too many sleds. I know its unpopular to say, but sleds shouldn't be in water as skinny as the upper river. Last time I floated it I had a sled literally run into my anchored boat and then look at me like I shouldn't be in the way. You all can have it.

That's why the past few years I have been picking and choosing when and where with a little more thought into it.Fishing out of state this year down south has paid off in all parts of the game.....pretty dam enjoyable down that way this season.Having the option to move around has paid off.Good luck,

SZ

Last time I floated I had a sled pass me at practically full throttle while I was plugging tight to steep bank and his waves slammed me right into the bank. Thankfully there wasn't any sharp branches sticking out I would have been screwed!!

He seen the whole event play out and had the nerve to side drift right passed me a few minutes later and ask how fishing was.

I would have rocked that bastard, always carry a few in the boat for clowns like that.

I've lived in Elma for about 12 years now, and I've seen a lot of changes on the local rivers in that time. I can't say I had the same experience with the locals that bankbum noted when I first came; folks seemed pretty nice to me. I've noticed, like he did, that the Puget Sound closures brought the biggest changes, not only in terms of the crowding and the ethics observed, but also in the demeanor of the other folks fishing. Seems burning $40 on gas and $20 on a shuttle to go boat racing from hole to hole, only to find two boats in every one, makes folks crabby. And that's on a weekday.... I don't blame the Puget Sounders for crowding the rivers, but it definitely ain't what it used to be.

I still love the Satsop, and having a pontoon boat gives me a few options for finding less crowded water (if not biting fish) but some days, you just have to grin and bear it, and be glad you're not working instead. It really is a shame that so many folks' best option these days is to chase whatever recruits (from runs that are marginal to begin with) that manage to sneak past the gillnets on rivers 50-100 miles from home. Hardly seems like meaningful opportunity for the cost of a license plus a Discover Pass. At least I don't have to drive 2 hours to join in the carnage. And now they're closing the hatchery on the Green.... What a punch in the gut.

The quality of the steelhead fishing has been dismal for me this winter, and I hear the same from a lot of acquaintances. At this rate, it can't be much longer til' the Satsop and Wynoochee are shut down, too. We better smoke 'em while we got 'em.

I love the Satsop, but only because it is close and comfortable (maybe less so since I sunk there). There are lots of times where I think "I wouldn't drive from Olympia to do this."

The river is flattening out, degrading its banks, and has lost most of the character it used to have. Sleds don't help.

I have plenty of crowd mitigation techniques, I can do fine with that, but this time of the year I am thinking a lot more about squeezing into my wetsuit and surfing, or swinging a golf club (in regular clothes not a wetsuit).

LOL. I was at Oaksridge (our local G.C.) on Saturday (not playing golf), and a wetsuit would have been appropriate attire that day. Course looked like something out of a video game. Island greens everywhere.

The world is full of thoughtless assholes. Usually that type of motor head has a little dick and gets his kicks pushing the throttle down. That river should not have sleds on it period. I quit fishing it because of the d-bags racing up and down the river with their boner boats. I had a 20+ pound silver on fly fishing the Satsop. It had me into my backing and a stupid dick head comes flying down river which may have been barley twice as wide as his gasoline orgasm and he ran right over my line. There were probably 5 or 6 guys yelling at him to stop but he kept going. He new full well that I had a fish on. If you need gasoline to get your nut off go do it in a car and hopefully the road will head straight off a cliff!

Rocket I've switched to the clubs at least when the sun has been out, I have no regrets.

Trust me I wanted nothing more than to put a 45 round into his boat...but that's just stupid on my part.
I just smiled and said I hooked 9 fish as he floated by.

Moving out here I did fully expect some sort of bad vibes being from Seattle. Especially with the Puget sound closures and everybody migrating out here to fish.....
The guys who have given the attitude are the 20 something year olds who think they are hot [Bleeeeep!] and out to prove their worth a damn in the fishing community...
The same group that exploits these rivers to make their names known.

And to be honest. By the time steelhead fishing starts getting good out here on Grays harbor rivers (for the most part). The Puget sound hatchery runs are pretty much over with.... even if opened till end of February... the runs are still over mostly by mid January. So all these butt hurt locals over the Puget sound crowd fishing down here are wasting their breath.

I have been fishing it since the mid 80's, live in Port Orchard, so in just jump over the top through Matlock. The Sat and Nooch get my attention most of the time, but the last 8 years the sleds are coming further up, and for some with complete disregard to safety. The problem is the Cowltz. it needs to become a factory, to regain thier attention

On the flip side, fishing was good today, one cromer short of boat limit, and no people, none. Vis about two foot, color decent, flow abit fast, making it a faster float then normal..... And it was a beautiful day.... And heard the Grouse strumming"...... Awsome day

word

If you fished the Satsop in the 70's and 80's, what it is now almost makes you feel like a close friend died. It doesn't fish anything like it used to and it doesn't look anything like it used to.

It really went in the crapper after Fishing and Hinting Lies did a big article on it complete with maps and color pictures and some goat telling everyone about all the 20lb wild steelhead. From that point on the cat got out of the bag.

I still fish it, but more often than not I come home disappointed.

I'm going to take an unpopular stance, owning both a sled and drift boat and having been [Bleeeeep!] over by both enough times to justify wearing Depends now.

Whether or not sleds should be on the river doesn't matter, because they're allowed. With that out of the way, do you want a boat to barely pass you throwing out a 3' wake, scouring the gravel more and just generally being 'in your world' for longer

OR

IF SAFE TO DO SO pass you at a much faster clip making a smaller wake, jet aimed away from the gravel more but maybe slightly louder?

On another note, do you want a sled to..

A) Run directly over the run/hole but farther away from your boat
B) Run closer to your boat to stay away from the fish
C) Come off plane and idle through taking 5 minutes to move past if the waters moving at a good pace.

Now once everyone agrees on these, we'll make it a standard code.
Sound good?

I fished the Satsop from 1968 to 1972 mostly. On a busy Saturday I once saw two drift boats take out on Wharton Bar, downstream of the highway, no sleds. After moving back to the south sound area in 1992 I thought I'd run down and visit the Satsop on a Friday and see if the silvers were in. I drove the river from Fuller bridge up the East Fork to Shafer State Park. In that short drive I counted more angler vehicles than I had seen over the entire 4 years that I first fished the river. Yeah, I'd say things have changed a bit.

Sg

Problem is........Puget sound rivers have gone to [Bleeeeep!], Tacoma area rivers have gone to [Bleeeeep!]......more people have driftboats, toons, sleds, etc., people want fish...I've posted for years.....lot's of water for drift boats....upper Quinault, West fork of the Humptulips, Queets, Upper Hoh.....

No easy answer.....State wants money....license sales, trailer sales, motor sales, etc.

Solve the fish problem in Tacoma, Seattle, Everett, area....many of the problems "go away", for "my local rivers".........

The reason those rivers are failing is over crowding and over fishing. Throw in the jet sleds and it shrinks the river down even more. For those of us that grew up in the old school it's hard to stomach. In those days if someone had a sled they would slow down to a crawl when passing other fisherman. Even bank fisherman. There was river etiquette and amazingly there weren't the amount of fisherman or sleds we see today. Now when it's needed more than ever it rarely exists. There are however still some people that do the right thing.

Sometimes I wonder if some fisherman are out there for the right reasons. My dad (he died at 88) and his crew of sport fishermen were way ahead of the game. Their rules were things like "If you aren't going to eat the fish you catch, let it go. Don't kill it to pass it on to someone else to eat". "If a guy is working a hole start your fishing above him not below him." "Enjoy the total experience meaning the wild life, the beautiful scenery, the opportunity to see things that most people will never see and so on".

These days I see people literally racing from a parking spot to the river so they can stand side by side 5 feet apart from the next knucklehead. The same applies for boat fisherman. In the last 10 years we (my fishing partners) sleep in a little longer and let the invasion fight their way down the river. When we put in it's usually smooth sailing with relatively few others to compete with and yes we do catch fish and plenty of them. We have not kept a steelhead of any kind (native or hatchery) for 20 years. I was taught it's the total package when steelhead fishing and not just a brutal onslaught of freaked out dudes who can't stand the thought of the guy/boat ahead of them catching a fish with the mentality that there won't be any left. Steelhead fishing is a total experience. To some that may sound corny but I don't give a f*@k.

Catch and release should be the norm and not the exception. Now someone is going to say that hatchery fish should be taken. There is one big problem with that theory. If you want to know what that problem is take a look at the stats from the hatcheries this year. It's a nightmare. I don't think one hatchery got their expected returns.

In many of the rivers I fished when I was a kid...mid-70's and into the mid-80's...there were a LOT more fisherman out there than there are now...and everyone was WAY more polite and used far better etiquette than "fishermen" do on crowded rivers now.

I think there were a few differences...first, and most important, there were a lot more fish around.

People didn't feel the need to act like total douchebags to fight for a fish...everyone could catch a couple.

Now the rivers are full of douchebags running all up and down the river to be "first" and "best" at everything...which works fine amongst the douchebags, and annoys the rest of us.

Back then the guides were the ones to look to see who was doing it "right", and they had no problem setting people straight who were acting like douchebags...now a good portion of the douchebags are amongst the guides, and they spend all day racing each other all around the river and the rest of us get caught up in their crossfire.

Besides annoying the rest of us, I know the rest of the guides who aren't douchebags are even more annoyed by it, as they get lumped in with them since they all have the same stickers.

Fish on...

Todd

Myself and many others are pushing WDFW to not allow sleds above the west fork on the Satsop. It is ruining the river and they have no respect for the drift fisherman. I fish in a toon and it really sucks when you and a buddy are pulling plugs side by side and a sled blows thru up there in a already skinny river at full speed and slams u into your buddy or the bank. I like sleds don't get me wrong but there is a place for them and the Satsop is not one of them.!!!

Been tried before……twice that I know.

It's a county issue, meaning that they are the ones who can dictate what boats are used where….not WDFW. In both instances, the commissioners at the time showed little to no interest in changing the reg.

Persoanlly, I'll keep whack'n remote trails, fish in solitude and watch the Sop' explode from a distant hill top.

If you know that sleds are there........Queets, Hoh, West Fork of Humptulips, Green and many other rivers have your name on it......point your car in those directions....

You'll be happier........

As far as jets on thre upper Satsop,just because you are allowed to do something is not really a good reason for doing it. I don't know how many times I've heard guys on this site rag on people for keeping wild fish on rivers where you are allowed one wild fish. I agree with them, just because the state says you can do something does't mean it;s right. After all, the state is the reason our rivers are in such terrible condition for steelhead. I would rather you slow to a crawl, that is the polite and reasonable thing to do. As far as "come off plane and idle through", taking 5 minutes is a HELL of an exageration,I know you are in a REAL hurry, why should being reasonable enter into the picture? I've heard that excuse from large boat owners, just go slow enough to NOT throw out a large wake. If getting "up on plane" is so important to your enjoyment of your day go out in the bay or the ocean to get your jollies. I've seen enough smirks and laughs when they look back to see if they actually swamped us to know that it is intentional. After all You've GOT TO get where you are going ahead of anyone else. We won't fish the Satsop because of safety issues (asshats running into us on The Chehalis is bad enough!) WE will be recording all such activities for the marine patrol of the sheriff's dept. they have indicated they would LOVE to speak to these "folks" themselves. Great ammo for the county commisioners for those who want to get these oversized, destructive boats out of the upper river. WE have had "people" in 18 to 22 ft. boats come at us at full throttle on the Chehalis passing within 10 yards of us nearly swamping us, and then complain after being yelled at and flipped off, "well you are in the channel". There is NO channel, he's in a jet, the river is really wide there (just upstream from Monty bridge, deep on both sides' and we are obviously trolling..Obviously just trying to ruin someone's day.Just one of countless rude incidents, it's really a shame when locals (Elma) that attend LOTS of meetings to improve fishing on the Chehalis are bullied by clowns with too much boat and testosterone to be allowed to drive. BIG rocks would help slow them down.It will take evidence of this activity on the Satsop to get any action out of the county comm., but it CAN be done. I don't expect these kinds of folks to aggree to anything that curtails their anti-social behavior.Bob R

BoB R,

Thanks for commenting. Personally, I have no problem WHAT-SO-EVER idling next to the boats or bankies. Just keep in mind, doing so will be a lot slower and not much quieter. Have you driven jet boats not on plane in fast water? Not exactly efficient when you're not on plane. If you ever see a guy out there coming up river pointing frantically side to side, looking like an idiot, trying to ask you which way you want to be passed on, that's probably me. Big problem comes when the guy running the motor, or oars is fishing one side and someone else in the boat is fishing the other. I get pissed at my guys when they do this because its taught for other around us to know what to do. When other boats are around, EVERYONE in the boat needs to fish the same side. This is sidedrifting, anchor fishing, float fishing,etc. Plug fishing is obviously different.

The problem is and the point I was trying to make is that every situation and EVERYONE is different. AND... it varies from river to river. Some people want you to idle by and some will get pissed and wave you through frantically. A lot of older guys even want you to run over the hole. Some people want you to run past as far off the fish as possible, even if its right next to there boat. Some get pissed that you come closer to their boat. I agree completely that if you have a jet, and its clear where everyone else if fishing, stay away. But now what if you can stay farther away by running faster? ie, cutting the very very inside shallow section of a gravel bar while a boat is fishing the deeper slot? Go slow and idle over the slot? Doubtful that will go over well.

As far as being in a hurry. That's completely dependent on the person. Personally I don't think its that much of a hurry to get back to the top of the drift you just pounded. If its the break of dawn and you know there's fish in a slot, sure. That might be a hurry.

And another thing, I've seen a few posts about throwing rocks..... If you have an ETIQUETTE or RESPECT problem with what the operator of a boat did, flag them down and ask them to take it to the beach or come talk to you. Throw punches if you really feel like it, but do it like a MAN. That being said if someone is a little girl and throws rocks at my friends/family, you will have a very bad day from that point forward. If you hit someone in my boat, the cops better be on the way and you'd better start a recovery crew to pull your sunken boat out of the river. So if you're actually stupid enough to throw a rock at someone over a fish, just think about it for a second.

I saw 2MANY's post after mine and he hit it dead on. Just as anything, a few bad people ruin the image for everyone. I try to be as courteous to everyone as possible because when I beach my sled somewhere, it's nice to have friends. It's no different than seeing the drift boat, that low holed everyone racing down the river, dragging his boat over the gravel out of the the wrong channel. If he hadn't burned me before and had shown a little respect, sure I'd go help him drag his boat. Win win for everyone.

There was a group of us who tried to get sleds banned above the west fork a few years ago. We had over 500 signatures. Never turned them in.
You have no idea what lengths Ron Warren and Kurt Hughes will go to. Ron was worried that if part of the river was just for drift boats and bankies no one would fish it. Then what would happen to all the hatchery fish? They would just swim up river. We had a meeting with one of the comm and Kurt just lied to the point of insanity. It became obvious they had stock in Woolridge.
I gave up. So did the rest. So then the sleds were mad we tried and the drift boaters were mad we gave up.
I figure no one gives a F about the river, why should I? Lets just use it up like a bottle of vodka in Leaving Las Vegas.

What we do need are more folks to say whats right and whats wrong on the river. Get in their faces. Throw insults. Throw rocks. If no rocks throw pencil lead. The problem seems to be that no one wants to "annoy" the bad guys. When someone side drifts through the slot I am fishing I start with "Sorry I didn't realize you were fishing here, I didn't see you the last 2 hours". Then cast across their lines.
Bring old school back, it works.

Sorry you misunderstood me, when I said big rocks I meant big enough to rip the bottom out of his boat! If I was going to pitch anything it would be lead or hooks, not rocks or fists, but I don't go there either, I just try to get evidence and maybe ask him what his major malfunction is. And yes, I expect everyone to pass by others in boats with low freeboard (i.e: canoes, kyacks, etc.) at low speeds and to avoid gunning around blind corners and show other fisherfolk on the banks the proper respect. I realize this may be how you personally operate, but lets face it, the upper satsop is way too skinny for the size or number of jets working it.Most of the abuses I see are on the Chehalis in the fall as we won't venture on the Satsop while the numbers of fishermen remain high, odds of running into(more likely they will run into you!) the not so small numbers of outright rude boat operators is a lot higher when fish are in, I guess we'll enjoy it when the runs are low for a nice scenic trip. Bob R

Sled vs. Driftboat vs. people on the bank, there's always going to be users in each class doing something we don't like. Some just don't know any better and some probably don't give a sh!t, but labeling an entire user group is an easy out. I don't believe all guys in a driftboat are dipsh!ts for fishing thru my water when I'm on the bank fishing.
Also my experience fishing in my sled, some guys wave me to go full speed by and some are waving for me to slow down. So as a guy operating a sled how are we suppose to guess on how you like us to go by you? You can't please everybody but I've gone back to talk to folks on the bank on lower nooch before because they were pissed off when I was running on plane on the opposite side of the river they were fishing. I was confused why their were pissed off so I pulled up to see what their issues was and they just asked if i would slow down when I went by them, I said no problem. Sometimes it's as easy just to stop and talk to the people you are around so both sides can hear reasoning or just a quick educational conversation.

For the most part, I think this was a great post. I appreciate the way you handled the situation you described, and I appreciate the dilemma sled operators deal with trying to decide how to pass people. I would guess there are times where lowering or increasing your speed could jeopardize your safety (or someone else's), and that's not a good place to be.

The only thing I disagree with is that you said you don't have a problem with guys in boats fishing through water you are fishing from the bank. If you ask me, that's some bush league $hit right there. If anyone deserves the BFR treatment, it's those guys. For guides, that offense should be punishable by death, as part of their job SHOULD be to set a good example for others. Bankies have very limited access on most rivers, and most of the best water is only accessible to boats. Let the bankies have their water, people!

Freefarmer,

I agree. Get in the sled operator, drift boat rower or bankies face. I'm sure most of the time it won't come to punches, but the point is made. This is the only way some people will learn. I have no problem casting my drift gear with 65lb braid over a drift boats line who just started plugging our bobber hole we're fishing from the bank. As long as you're not directly endangering someone, go for it. It does prove a point, the person in the wrong gets a free lesson and hopefully becomes a better more respectful angler and no one gets hurt. Its just fishing.

Bob R,
I was hoping you weren't talking about throwing rocks. And big sharp rocks in a tight river do the same thing as above. A free lesson and hopefully you become a better and more respectful boater.

It should be noted that "old school" is also telling folks "THANKS, that was very courteous".
Norbeck and Stevens are 2 of the most courteous fishermen on the river.
They always slow down and ask if there is any question what water we are fishing.

Sorry for the confusion,I was meaning to say I'm not labeling all the guys in boats as @ssholes just because some of them fish thru my water I'm occupying(it does in fact irritate me). This year on nooch it has happened a lot and really starts to get a guy in a foul mood, the worst part is some of them are guides(who you would hope would know better).

Been all though this many times.......

1. Many times during November - April, we get the "high water from Hell".......no way could most of the river be fished by anything but jet boats. Much as I dislike many of the WDFW staff....I have to agree, that hatchery fish must die.

2. I brood stocked that river for many years.....I'd run from Highway launch clear to Torrow Branch......tubed many fish, over the years. Just worked better from jet boats, than drift boats. IF NOT FOR THE EFFORTS FROM MANY JET BOAT OWNERS AND MANY DRIFT BOATS OWNERS.....the fishing on the Satsop would be "very limited".

3. My boats is 17'.....even I don't like to see the 20+ footers, inboard or outboard.......starting to like guides even less. Satsop and Wynoochee will be problem areas because of "hatchery fish", close to the I-5 people, and just too many people retired, with too much money, with nothing else to do.......so to get away from the Seattle, Tacoma, etc. rat race.......here they come!!!!!!

Guess if you want peace and quiet......head North out of Hoquiam.

If your going to split hairs and not let one type of boat on that river then you need to get rid of all boats on that river. Don't be a snob...

I want you to be nice. Just be nice. Until its time not to be nice.

We should have a Fisherman's Thunderdome. Rent out the Tacoma dome and just get it on. Drifters taking on Sledders. Bankies taking everyone on. Sell tickets and popcorn with a portion of the proceeds going to the WDFW & CCA.

2Many & Dan could be Master Blaster together and the Merg could play Tina.

This would sell.

Interesting comment Many.
I fished with Robbo once. Robbo is a friend of mine, had gotten a new boat and yes I fished for about an hour. Like I said, once. No big.
I just dont like listening to a motor the whole time. Thats just me.
So no need to lie about stuff.
Like I said I got no problem with sleds, just a-holes.

How's about we ban fisherman who live above Lacey from the Satsop, Nooch and Hump? You can have the Oly Pen.....

Fair is fair, you overfished your back yard so stay out of ours!!!

Holy crap, I'm beginning to regret starting a thread about a tree...

Now if I would of caught 3 or 4 fish that ride with Robbo you may have seen me in with him again!

Just keep your gear outta my gear and I could care less what else you do on the river.

You too.

Wasn't there a tree somewhere?

Bad management of the resource and no birth control..this is what happens.

You're kidding, right?

We floated yesterday from the east fork above the tornow in my black n white Clack SSG. We pulled it up and over the gravel bar behind the root wad. It is very doable but the mud silt behind the wad is about two feet deep. We went 4 for 4.
Born and raised in Hoquiam; mom and dad's ashes are in the Hump at the upper train bridge (long since dismantled and renamed); first iron skull caught there in 1951. The worst sportsmen I've seen in our area are locals, the out of owners are just confused by the rampant hatred on our river banks.
Just my opinion

If you know the river mentioned, you would know some slots are but 25-30' wide, with a boat anchored 4 ft from the shore and being 5 ft wide, that only leaves 20-25' of river, and I did not say anything about throwing anything, just that I would take it up later with him. The area I was referring to is just below the newer log jam, this is skinny water, the water below the west fork is quite abit bigger. And for years not many sleds ventured past the west fork, afew locals that launched higher, but nothing like today.

They should stay below the west fork, problem is this year it is the worst, Thanks WDFW for the new perfect sled launch on the west fork, before is was a little ride to get that high, so they for the most part fished lower

It's not the new launch..it is the lack of opportunity elsewhere. It'll get worse and then it'll get closed. The fish cannot take the pressure they are receiving here.

It's the launch, this year you can count 7-10 sleds to cook creek on any given day, three years ago you might have seen one or two, and they launched above the west fork on private ground. And as you got closer to the west fork you would start seeing them more, and between the west and hwy many sleds. Since the new ramp thier are more above then below.

The Cowletz needs to be restored to her glory, to again regain thier attention

In my opinion you are both right. Currently there are only about 5 rivers open in western Washington where you could run a sled. Some of those are too high, some have no fish, and that leaves the other couple, which is where everyone with a sled is gonna be. Then figure how many sleds are out there in Western Washington, and it doesnt take long to figure out why we are having this discussion. Then figure its exactly 11 river miles from the mouth of the Satsop to the Turnow, of which about 8 miles consistently holds fish. I generally love new boat ramps but hated to hear when the west fork ramp was being rebuilt. I think I have fished the Satsop about 6 times since that ramp went in, and I used to be on it almost every week it was fishable. It aint the same, and never will be. Proximity to the I5 corridor, commercialization of the resource, internet articles, magazine articles, they have all popularized this river to a point of no return.

Just off the top of my head, here are a couple things out of many that could easily cure this (in no particular order).

#1. Advanced Daily Access Lotteries (or first-come, first-serve access limits).

#2. Rotating weekly calendars by fishing mode / platform (sled, drift and bank).

#3. No sleds on rivers with less than (X) average total width as measured at the median / historical water height.

#4. Anything goes designated Meat / Terminal Fisheries that are actually stuffed with brats (see the old Cowlitz B Run).

The issue isn't that holistic solutions that work for everyone can't be found. The issue is different user groups that are only satisfied when all of their specific demands are met at the cost of all of somebody else's specific demands. The issue is that we are dependent on a government agency to think strategically and actually do some real work to fix something broken. The issue is a belief in personal river ownership without showing title. The issue is "this is my backyard, not yours". The issue is that everyone is a unique and special little snowflake and rules, laws, courtesy and methods of "wrong" styles of fishing are the other guy's problem. The issue is that only the other user groups are greedy, self-centered jerks that can only think about themselves. The issue is that we have a severe shortage of advanced, home based mirror technologies even in the year 2014.

It's none of YOU guys of course. YOU are not part of the problem. YOU own a mirror. YOU are 100% correct all of the time. It's those other bastards fault and it can't possibly be YOU! Amirite?

Several pages of the same ol' same ol' bitching and sob-story drivel and almost zero discussion on solving the actual problem. I want to say that I am surprised by this, but alas history has shown to be the great equalizer of expectations.

I agree 2Many. I just tire of listening to people bitch about whatever the topic / problem of the day is without ever suggesting viable solutions or believing that they aren't a part of the problem. We have lost our ability to rationally discuss issues. We have lost the ability to see past our own eyes.

Either come together and solve it or shut the F up.

best policy I've heard yet. only caveat i would add is that they get only the bogey, duc, and hoh. the rest should be as misguided has,stated. and yes assholes in sleds have no place on the satsop or nooch. seems there's a couple that handle the responsibility alright, but overall there are way more sled owners than rivermen.

That is exactly what I'm talkin about. Soon there will be no fish here just like up North!!!

How about sleds below west fork in bigger water, drift boat and toons above in the skinny water, each has about half the river to fish. This would create a safe environment in skinny water, and be just to all parties, or start handling it like they do in forks. How ever they have it worked out

As I recall boats on the water a county responsibility to govern. State can say no fishing from a boat but can not stop the use of boats for transport. Strange how that works.

Yea right.........any high water, fish blow right thru, pass the West Fork water is clean, a lot lower, and fishing is fair from Tornow Branch to West Fork......

That's why everyone wants to fish "above the West Fork", well not everyone but lot's......

It's not only the sleds but too many DB's. How many driftboats can a section of a small rivier handle?
Look at the Nooch for W S.... the bankies get frustrated from all the drifters, they in turn get frustrated by the sleds and so on & so on.....
It's too Damn crowded to be fun anymore!!!

Now that I have all of your attention:

I'm all for a viable solution but know that WDFW is the problem!!!
They have managed a truly renewable and enjoyable resource near to extinction.
Thus resulting into the minions engaging in passing matches when we should be hammering the problem and getting sh!t done.

whaaaaah! sleds are [Bleeeeep!] tankers and should be banned from all chehalis tribs period

What I REALLY think is.......until the Native numbers increase.....

Satsop.....No Steelhead fishing West Fork, and all waters above West Fork.

Wynoochee......No winter run steelhead fishing above White Bridge.

Why have the rivers here face the major problems the I-5 rivers have????

Any hatchery fish that show at fish trap on Wynoochee or the hatchery on the Satsop......be killing and given to food banks.

And drifter, just 15 years ago when the broodstocking was going on, What was different back then, not many above. Some but not many. The PS rivers would still close. Did the fish not blow thru then?. Okay maybe then, nothing above the West fork if the water is below 2500cfs, plenty of vis down below, and starting to skinny up ontop. Same with the Nooch, nothing above WB when water at black creek is below 1800cfs, water up top starts getting skinny then. Sleds have been to the bottom of boulder garden this year when black creek was 1200cfs and save was at 800cfs. Awful skinny. I love the water down below, but go up top to get away from situations, now the situation are migrating. Not all are problems, but a few ruin it for all. But this also goes for, all boats with no etiquette, you have the whole river, let the bank anglers and anchored boats have the water they are fishing,

For those who like the idea of a lottery system: Get a group together and have at it, I for one won't be a part of it, ever.

sleds are like a unicycle with a v8 on those streams. it just don't make sense.

2Many

Keen use of witty comments.......makes my day.....thanks...

I'm starting to think ffuck winter runs...can summer just hurry the fuckk up so I can have my river back.

It was nice finding the rocks in the west fork launch yesterday morning, NOT. I hope who every did it feels like they accomplished there mission. Thanks to the 1 drifter that was on the water there gone now. In the last 3 days there has been a total of 5 drifters out with 7 or 8 sleds daily, Hmmm think we need to look at user groups (most the drifters setting behind there screens whining). Biggest problem I see is the LACK of respect for others. Treat others how you wanta be treated works for me. We are all there to do the same thing enjoy the day and catch a few fish. Fish On

Salman -

I've always appreciated your posts - so just curious, any reason why you wouldn't fish under a lottery on certain rivers at peak times? Is it principle; pain in the arse factor or what?

Tight lines,

Nick

all i see is lots of whining. just symptoms of a bigger problem, not many fish, and not enough rivers to fish for them in any more.

drift boat, sled, bankie, they've all got their issues. the big picture is that everything worth fishing has become ridiculously overcrowded now. the really sad thing is that license sales slip every year. what few people buy them are fishing a lot more for decreasing numbers of returning fish.

i'm about one more lousy season away from hanging up my steelhead gear and sticking to fall salmon and lake fishing. the fishing just isn't good enough to justify going even if the crowds weren't as insane as they are now.

I saw on the internet he is a graduate of M.I.T.. I would expect nothing less.

Forgot to add the M.I.T. i'm referring to is Master of Intelligence of Tittys.

there's study out that directly ties size of sled to the erection quality achievable by the operator. I'll pull it up for you guys. its filled in the office of true stuff next to the truck study. all in all the results are very telling. it also goes on to explain the popularity of tiller designs as it taps in and reminds the driver what a firm cock feels like. all in all an interesting read. definitely helps explain the lack of manners by some tiller jockeys. they are in the final stages of mourning for their penis.

Little stud alert.

Your fantasy's are very telling. Finding a date might take a while here, there are better sites out there.

sweet photos 2many. i can digg that.

great burn fish4brains. I'll have to sharpen my sword before i lock wits with you i can tell.

Wake the f-up and look at WDFW has done to us?!
Angler vs. Angler.... ???????

It's Time to unite fellow river maggots. Maybe a free pinner and whiskey shot prior to each meeting of the newly formed, 'Western Washington River Maggot Club', could bring a few of us together ?!
; )

Sorry to say bro's , (and the sooner you realize it, the better) Winter steelhead fishing as we have known it, is dead.

More changes and closures w/ resulting crowding to come.

FYI, I'm not looking for any swordplay.

got five on the pinner. no sword play needed. grumpy for all the same reasons as the rest of you. unite conquer.... for the record wadrifter is one that handles a sled with manners. a,good Man.

Can I hit the pinner?

sure,!

This debate has been around forever......Being a drift boat owner & sled owner........The county needs to get smart and change the laws on the Nooch & Sappy. No sleds above the wier on the nooch and no sleds above the westfork of the sappy....................Plant more fish through out the state mostly the cow,lewy,Sky & Skagit....................Good luck,

SZ

Life is really hard if you only assume the worst about people.

There is lots of people on the Satsop so going there means you need to be ready to mentally deal with other folk in (god forbid) a different water craft than you are in. The internet has created a competitive situation, where there should not be one. Everyone is scratchin' for a small resource in the name of "fun".

If it is hard to have fun fishing under the current sh!tty situation, then by all means don't do it. If I do something for fun and it makes me pissed off, then I was better off doing yardwork at least that makes my old lady happy.

Strong effort 2MANY.

Steelhead is fun, but I've been day dreaming about fishing with my kids in a lazy lake for the past few weeks. That's where the true joy is.

Awesome pics dude, thanks for sharing...




Tyler

It'll never fly……..too simple and makes sense. Exception being the Sky and Skagit. Forget the hatchery component up there and just revive the spring c-n-r seasons.

they tried stop sleds above the forks on the Satsop a few years ago. the county said no it would cost them to much to patrol it.

Hard to see how with the G.H. Sheriff regularly patrolling the Chehalis in their shiny new $45,000 sled. Be a simple thing to hang a left up the Satsop or Nooch.

don't think they had that sled back then. might be time to try again
also all new commissioners now

I'm all for banning sleds. let me know if something gets going. they are Loud, obnoxious, destructive, polluting, and bad for redds and fish. anyone that doesn't see that has their head in the sand.

Larry or Swing, organize the effort, and I will join your forces

Wonderful pictures of the kids. I wonder where and how they'll get to fish in 20 years?

Our steelhead fishing problem is two fold. 1) There aren't as many viable streams to fish as there once was, and the seasons are restricted. Years ago we had GOOD fishing on the Skagit, Sauk, Stilly, Green, Puyallup, Nisqually, (our) Deschutes, Chehalis, Cowlitz, Toutle, Kalama, Elokomin, Grays, Naselle, Willapa, Satsop, Wynoochee and ALL the Peninsula streams including the Lyre, Dungeness, Dose, and Duck. The Skokomish was awesome years ago. Where are we now? Only a few of those rivers are worth fishing now, or even open to steelhead fishing? So we crowd ourselves onto the best places that are open. Why? Because we all love our sport.

The evidence is clear: WDFW has MANAGED the steelhead streams to the terrible condition that they are now in and we have allowed them to do it. Look where much of western Oregon has gone with their steelhead programs with brood stocking! They get good fishing without seriously harming their fish genetics. We could too.

We need to DEMAND what we want from our steelhead fish managers. The tribe has their share, but we need to DEMAND that our share is managed properly for the betterment of the fish population and the sport of steelheading. Who is an advocate for steelhead and steelhead fishermen? It's not WDFW. We're PAYING dozens of biologists to fail, and we're also electing gutless politicians who don't support even the most basic of conservation principles, nor the best thing for economics. Stupid is as stupid does!

I admit that this rant is painted with rather a broad brush, but look at our history of our steelhead the last thirty years. If we had even the most basic of steelhead management in our state, the Satsop wouldn't be crowded. There would be smiling steelheaders spread throughout the state fishing the rivers that are now closed or who have few fish in them.

And, don't swallow all the hogwash that you hear about losing habitat. We have lots of great habitat with NO STEELHEAD swimming in it! Our over all habitat is significantly better than it was 40 years ago. I should know, I was in charge of protecting a lot of it.

Lets do something! Look at the great example of the leadership at FISHING THE CHEHALIS and what they've begun to accomplish. It could be done.

With almost 50% of the fish destined to the Chehalis intercepted up North by Alaska & Canada, we get to scraps after the tribes net Wild fish we cannot keep!!!
This is where the red line should be drawn, with those damn Yankees!!!

Tug3, sounds like it is time to Organize a grass roots organization, for the Betterment of our Steelhead, one that wants to protect and produce both numbers of Hatchery and Wild fish like we see in Oregon. 40-50k wild fish this year returning to the Umpqua, it has meet it's wild carrying capacity for 30 years along with hatchery supplementation.

Even the Native American guides on the Quinualt see the amount of netting as a problem, and are even lobbying thier own Tribe for fewer net days on thier river, to allow numbers to increase.

Why does California and Oregon have no Native gill netting off reservation? These are things we need to look at, and try to emulate.

I will join your organization Tug. Let get it rolling.

If you look at the numbers from pg 8 from this WDFW 2009 Sports Catch Report on license sales since 1971 table, it is appears that participation over the years has remained fairly level? I had thought participation had increased significantly along with the poulation, but unless I am missing something it does not appear to be the case?
It is a fact, opportunities around the state have diminished this time of year and the WDFW is directly responsible for that. To many fishermen on to few rivers available to fish causes Satsap issues everywhere. IMO more PS area rivers could be open for total CnR with selective gear rules Feb. and March. I know I would participate and not travel to wet a line.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01448/wdfw01448.pdf

I'm reading a lot of posts alleging that WDFW has managed WA steelhead fishing into the ground. I'm not a fan of every decision WDFW makes by a long shot. But I'm curious about exactly how WDFW has mis-managed steelhead, and exactly what actions WDFW could have taken that would have all the rivers full of steelhead today and keep all the steelhead fishermen satisfied. The reason I am curious about this is because I don't think it is possible. What would you have done differently?

Sg

if there is no steelhead in say puyallup river to protect then why not let cnr open and waste my time and keep me off the further away rivers

To Salmo G, WDFW is responsible for managing the fish right? There is a problem with the viability of many fish runs. They managed them till they were gone!

To answer your question asking what could have been done differently....Stop harvest of fish that are becoming scarce. Seems like a no brainer.

How about the downward spiral of hatchery smolt numbers planted for one!!!
Look at ALL hatcheries on WA rivers and tell me they are doing the right thing by cutting way back!!!

Are you a WDFW employee Salmo g.? Or just a cheerleader?

Why not keep most rivers open until the end of March? Is there a difference between releasing a fish now and in January ?

I'm not too keen on changing regs/extending seasons on particular streams because people notice. About a decade ago WDFG extended the season on a certain stream and it got mobbed later on in the season. The same stream is closed in winter above an arbitrary point, cutting off a couple of miles of prime water. Another creek was (inexplicably) closed in winter completely recently. And there is another stream with a healthy run of wild fish (according to locals) that isn't open that could be. But I wouldn't want to see it suddenly opened for winter fishing because it would be mobbed.

Have a general stream opener until the end of March unless otherwise posted on the larger stream systems.

BTW Running sleds on a busy river has as much charm as a day driving on I-5. To each their own.

Blah Blah, have a nice day.

Back on topic, any intel on the blockage since last weekends rain?

A few ideas....
1. Leave PS rivers open until the end of march with (selective gear rules)
2. Recycle "excess" hatchery fish downstream on PS rivers with hatcheries once egg take is met
3. Implement brood stock programs on the skagit, skykomish, snoqualmie systems to increase catching opportunity

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum...html#Post888985

Fish on...

Todd

Deerlick,

Since there are few (not no) wild steelhead in the Puyallup to protect, you probably wouldn't do much damage if there were a CNR season. But all of PS wild steelhead are listed as threatened under the ESA, and no directed fishing, even CNR, can occur without an approved steelhead management plan. There is no approved plan. Therefore, no directed fishing.

Gregsalmon,

Yes, WDFW is responsible for managing the fish. I asked the question because I'm not certain the situation would be appreciably different regardless of how WDFW had managed them. Using Puget Sound steelhead as the example, harvest has been so restricted over the last 20 years, that in its listing document NMFS wrote that harvest is basically not a factor affecting abundance. If that is the case, I don't see what WDFW could have done differently that would have caused there to be higher abundance today since the only factor affecting abundance within WDFW's direct control is harvest. They have little environmental enforcement authority.

Misguided,

I'm not a WDFW employee or their cheerleader. I am one of Piscatorial Pursuit's unofficial agitators though.

Hatchery steelhead smolt plants have been on a declining trend. Prior to 2007 I expect that was largely a budget matter. Since then the ESA listing has been dictating reduced hatchery plants. Reduced stocking combined with significantly lower ocean survival makes for greatly reduced adult fish returns. However, WDFW has very limited control over its budget and zero control over ocean survival. So what could WDFW have done differently that would cause there to be more steelhead in the rivers today?

MilkbottleMikey,

It would be nice to have the rivers open to the end of March, but that ESA thing I mentioned above prohibits it. Must have 2 things first: 1. an approved management plan, and 2. wild steelhead runs meeting escapement goals - which almost none do.

2Many,

If I knew, I would have already told you.

Chukar14,

1. ESA prohibits directly targeting listed fish; therefore the rivers must close when the hatchery run is over.
2. Yeah, they could do that.
3. Native broodstock programs might increase "catching opportunity," but what makes you think that hatchery programs using wild broodstock wouldn't also get the same crappy SAR (smolt to adult return) as the current hatchery programs do? And while such broodstock programs might augment catch opportunity, they might work against the conservation of wild steelhead, which would be a bummer, don't you think?

BTW, getting an approved PS steelhead management plan is an elusive task. It's not just up to WDFW. There are about 14 PS treaty tribes that also have to be on board. It's just a guess, but I'm betting that they don't all want exactly the same thing. Which is why basin specific steelhead plans is probably the most viable route, but that is more work for WDFW. Which then spins into the cycle of more work when the budget from the general fund has been cut 40%, and salmon management is a higher priority than steelhead because, a. there are more salmon; b. worth more money; c. attract the attention of more people, fishermen and legislators; and d. it's the legislature that sets the WDFW budget; etc.

I asked the question because the criticisms of WDFW implied that there are things, things that are actually within WDFW's sphere of influence, that WDFW could have done differently that would have resulted in the rivers being full of fish today. But I don't know what those things would be. So I'm crowd-sourcing an answer.

Meanwhile, I haven't fished the Satsop in several years. Too many trees across the channel. And when I float it in my raft I about get run over by sleds. And when I run my jet boat up it, I about run over pontoons or into fallen trees. It's quite a situation going on over there.

Sg

Not in the WDFW sphere of influence but anyone that has pursued with an open mind an education into the biology of anadromous fish will find that the answers to recovery are no big mystery, the answers are just rejected by our society that places no value on anything other that it's value as potential numbers in a bank account.

Let me take a stab at it.
1. Eggs have to survive to hatch. (clean water, remain wet)
2. Juveniles need habitat to hide and food to eat. (clean habitat shelter from predators)
3. Smolt need to out-migrate to the ocean. (avoid predators and don't get the bends )
4. Fish need to eat in the ocean. (avoid predators/harvest, abundant food supply)
5. Fish need to migrate back up rivers. (avoid predators/harvest, adequate passage)
6. Fish need area to spawn. (gravel, clean water)

...and repeat.

Improving any one of these items does not necessarily boost the population as a whole, but hindering any one of these items will decline the population.

How about reducing the predators of steelhead smolt, this would benefit both hatchery and wild steelhead.

Or weirs, they could put weirs on tribs where wild fish are known to spawn to prevent hatchery fish from spawning with them. That should allow for large plants on the mainstream of the river.

Would be nice if some creative solutions were floated instead of just closing down rivers.

Humptulips, Chehalis, Wynoochee, Satsop..........QIN, used to net for not many months in winter time....I seem to remember 12/01 - 1/31, then the closing date just kept getting longer, this year it is May 2.

QIN netting schedule is 5 days a week.......Wild steelhead numbers are decreasing........while I don't know about "redd counts", I do get the trap report off the Wynoochee.........Native counts as of March 14, 2014
was 31.......there have been years when the count for the complete season was under 20.

Qin netting schedule is 5 days a week.....my observation is very few members are netting.......reason, IMO......not many fish.

What could help......WDFW and QIN, sit down and work out a schedule....ie 3-4 days a week but not past February. Might have to have cut sport seasons/restrictions......maybe deadlines...Wynoochee, No fishing above White Bridge, Satsop, No fishing above West Fork , Humptulips, no fishing above 101 Bridge.

No easy answer.....gone are the Pre-Bolt days........25# steelhead were common, even a few 30's were caught.....not anymore....

As of 5 minutes ago the jam was still there

With no management plan put in place and hatchery plants reduced to collection facilities only, it seems like something has to give?? If hatchery fish are cut out, and most PS systems are not anywhere close to capacity, then basically all rivers will be closed for foreseeable future? Hatchery plants are so low that most systems are stuggling to reach escapement and it provides very little sport unless you are fishing the terminal zones.

I don't see how early timed hatchery fish have much of an effect on the natives... how does a December brat effect a feb/march/april nate?

I guess that's why I do most of my steelheading out of Washington now, plenty of fish(nates/hatch) and no crowds... Although I hate to see what Washington steelheading has become.

How about now. . .are they still there?

still there... wait......, no still there

Salmo g. speaks the truth, as usual. That having been said, the fact that that the fish managers have no management plan is a bit ironic, if not comical. The angry hoard needs a scapegoat and WDFW is an easy target. In reality the problem is much bigger and seems to be a juxtaposition between 2many and 2few.

what's with swanny?

RCW 77.04.012
Mandate of department and commission.
Wildlife, fish, and shellfish are the property of the state. The commission, director, and the department shall preserve, protect, perpetuate, and manage the wildlife and food fish, game fish, and shellfish in state waters and offshore waters.

The department shall conserve the wildlife and food fish, game fish, and shellfish resources in a manner that does not impair the resource. In a manner consistent with this goal, the department shall seek to maintain the economic well-being and stability of the fishing industry in the state. The department shall promote orderly fisheries and shall enhance and improve recreational and commercial fishing in this state.

The commission may authorize the taking of wildlife, food fish, game fish, and shellfish only at times or places, or in manners or quantities, as in the judgment of the commission does not impair the supply of these resources.

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.

Recognizing that the management of our state wildlife, food fish, game fish, and shellfish resources depends heavily on the assistance of volunteers, the department shall work cooperatively with volunteer groups and individuals to achieve the goals of this title to the greatest extent possible.

Nothing in this title shall be construed to infringe on the right of a private property owner to control the owner's private property.

RCW (place any number here) doesn't mean sh!t. It's all open to interpretation and manipulation which keeps our obscenely vast number of lawyers and lobbyist in business. Ya,I'm one cynical SOB. Didn't use to be, got that way by watching all this crap over the years.

SG...Some have already been answered.

1. Years ago, when the PS runs still had a chance, the WDFW could have negotiated/FORCED the Tribes less days per week to net, based on the first sign of decline! Instead, and it continues on the coast, let them net 5-7 days a week Feb., March, and April, the peak of the wild runs.
2. Years ago! Should have FORCED, even under sports opposition, CnR and selective gear rules to protect wild fish, STATE WIDE! BC did. Harvest continues to this day, on the coast.
3. Should have educated and enforced #2.
4. Should be continuing and expanding, at more locations, brood stock enhancement programs, not stopping them! ie. Sol Duc. IMO Sandy R. study not represenative to every location and should not be used as the guide.

How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I'm missing some.
I am no expert and mean no disrespect, for you provide much insight and expertese to this board. Many on this board have lost faith in the WDFW to manage Steelhead in the future, based on how it exist today. I know I am disgusted and have little faith. Sometimes a little common sense instead of politics or science could go a long way.

Deerlick,

"Since there are few (not no) wild steelhead in the Puyallup to protect, you probably wouldn't do much damage if there were a CNR season. But all of PS wild steelhead are listed as threatened under the ESA, and no directed fishing, even CNR, can occur without an approved steelhead management plan. There is no approved plan. Therefore, no directed fishing"

Than the WDFW should develop one and approve it!

Runngun,

Regarding your posts:

1. WDFW negotiated a number of things with treaty tribes, but the federal court was more than clear in establishing that WDFW has no authority or jurisdiction to force the tribes to net less. I thought that was common knowledge on this forum. Further, to the disbelief of many, treaty gillnetting is not a factor affecting the abundance of PS steelhead in roughly the last 20 years. (There may be some debate about that in regards to some HC tribs.) You will have a hard if not impossible time finding one qualified biologist who will state differently regarding PS steelhead.

2. Just as treaty fishing has not been identified as limiting wild PS steelhead abundance, the same applies to sport fishing. It has been constrained such that harvest hasn't been a factor affecting population abundance for years now.

3. ibid.

4. I posted in another thread that broodstock programs can be used in some cases to restore severely depressed populations or to augment harvest where wild populations are healthy, but it is misleading to think that mining wild fish from their populations to create new hatchery fish will automatically restore the wild population, especially if it is being used to augment harvest.

Your next post about Deerlick's post: It's not up to WDFW alone to prepare the draft plan. They need to get 14 PS treaty tribes on board, and contrary to your apparent wishes, WDFW cannot force them to adopt it. And the plan is for NMFS' approval, not WDFW's. Sorry for not being clearer about that.

Sg

To all: I think that the RCW is straight forward and easy to understand. It means just what it says. And I'm going to disagree with Salmo G. in that WDFW DOES have the ability to regulate/negotiate with the treaty tribes, but they haven't used it! Years ago in the aftermath of the Boldt Decision the courts established a Fisheries Advisory Board to mediate or arbitrate disagreements between WDFW (then the Department of Fisheries) on salmon and steelhead management conflicts. Conservation will always win in court. WDFW has never utilized that "tool" to hold the tribes feet to the fire when any of the individual tribes exceed what is their fair share of the steelhead catch. Look what is happening on the Queets, Hoh, etc., to the last vestiges of healthy wild runs. Many times the tribe there has nets in the river 5, 6, and 7 days per week! We anglers gave up our privilege to harvest (I did it gladly) in order to allow more wild steelhead to spawn. Our "share" must be allowed to go to the gravel! Who is/is not making sure that happens?

Those people are right when they say that the tribal netting on the PS rivers has been minimal the last decade. There's nothing left to fish for let alone spawn. And our brilliant WDFW plugged those rivers for 50 years with Chambers stock that was so inbred that it would take decades for that stock to re=establish through natural selection and evolution.

The tribes certainly must share the responsibility of conservation, but look what happened on the Columbia River for decades with non treaty netting. About ten years ago, WDFW authorized "Tangle Net" gillnet seasons for Spring Chinook. The nets that the biologists selected were coho size mesh!!! Did they intercept wild steelhead? Heck yes! About 21,000 steelhead were taken as bicatch AND TOSSED OVER THE SIDE DEAD. Don't WDFW biologists realize that coho and steelhead are close to the same size? Apparently not. And we have these same people entrusted with salmonid recovery?

For years WDFW and Oregon conducted gillnet fisheries in the Columbia during February, March and April. That's when wild winter steelhead migrate. The bad thing about gillnets is that they kill fish on both sides of the net. Those steelhead that survive spawning and are returning to the sea can also be taken on the upstream side.

Glad to see that Tacoma City Light has changed their fish run timing on the Cowlitz so that should any gillnet seasons occur on the Columbia downstream of the Cowlitz, that they'll intercept the peak of the new hatchery run in March.

As far as brood stocking goes, it doesn't have to be about harvest increases, but it has to be used to recover wild steelhead genes. For educational purposes, one of the reasons that OP rivers were left open to multiple wild fish harvest for so long, is that the primary fish manager for those streams liked to eat them! He told me so himself, and so did a Commissioner! I was incredulous! We should have mandated wild fish release years ago, but the F&W Commission was too slow or too stupid to react.

Has WDFW done a good job about doing something about seals, sea lions and bird predation? Heck no. Too politically volatile! Where in the statues does it say that they should keep their collective mouths shut if the politics are too hot?

Habitat? For example the Queets has enough steelhead spawning potential to support about 30,000 spawners. The Queets Band of the Quinaults says the escapement goal of 2,500 is enough. WDFW says it should be 3,500, if I remember right. Huh? The Hoh has failed to meet escapement goals for Steelhead how many of the last 10 years? Why is it still being fished so heavily? The Quillauete, which has been identified having the best steelhead habitat remaining in the state, had an average of only 8 spawning pairs per mile a few years ago! Is this really co-management? Who is advocating for us? No one when it comes to steelhead. They can't spawn if they're dead. They need to spawn, die and become river nutrients. It's a natural cycle.

Our over all fish habitat is in better condition now than it was years ago, yet we are failing to put spawners on the gravel. I realize that there is some mysterious affliction affecting Puget Sound steelhead the past couple decades, and that needs to be identified. I suspect part of the problem is with hungry seals and sea lions, along with the rare porpoise and orcas that are just trying to stay alive being a pinniped. When we cut back on steelhead hatchery plants, they've got to eat something between salmon runs.

If we can fix the harvest issue, jump start rebuilding wild steelhead populations with genetically appropriate hatchery supplementation, and eliminate much of predation we can get back on track to rebuilding steelhead runs instead of just watching them go down the drain.

The RCW is straightforward and simple to understand. But it's motherhood and apple pie with many conflicting goals. For starters "Nothing in this title shall be construed to infringe on the right of a private property owner to control the owner's private property." That seems to state that WDFW can do little to mitigate/control property decisions that may impact the fishery. Look at the limited size of the "buffer zone" for tree harvest on rivers like the Hump. One good wind storm a few years ago and the buffer zone blew over resulting in massive erosion, bank loss and silty gravel.

"The commission, director, and the department shall preserve, protect, perpetuate, and manage the wildlife and food fish, game fish, and shellfish in state waters and offshore waters."

BUT

"The department shall conserve the wildlife and food fish, game fish, and shellfish resources in a manner that does not impair the resource. In a manner consistent with this goal, the department shall seek to maintain the economic well-being and stability of the fishing industry in the state. The department shall promote orderly fisheries and shall enhance and improve recreational and commercial fishing in this state."

So the WDFW must simultaneously protect the fish AND improve recreational and commercial fishing in this state. (emphasis added). It seems to me that all this RCW does is set up a bunch of conflicting, impossible to satisfy goals. We see this in the continuing fight between recreational fishing and commercials. It's time that the state get real and set some PRIORITIES. This RWC doesn't even come close to doing that.

I don't think the goals are conflicting at all. The first priority is clearly conservation of wildlife, food fish, game fish, and shellfish. WDFW has the responsibility to promote fishing (and the taking of game for that matter) "in a manner consistent with this goal." So, the only time fisheries should be promoted is if they are consistent with conservation goals. It seems pretty clear to me.

The priorities are set in policy by the F&W Commission. Then they are filtered through the director to the staff.

I have to agree with SeaDNA somewhat, but the confusion as to what the priorities are is a failure of the staff to carry out policy and follow the statutes. For example: some years ago (10?) wildlife biologists planted Lynx fur in the Gifford Pinchot N.F. so that certain logging plans would not be carried out. Those that did the illegal act (Lynx have yet to be proven to exist in G.Pinchot) weren't even fired.

The fish biologists who designed a season that killed the 21,000 steelhead on the Columbia about 10 years ago weren't even disciplined, and on it goes. These things happen in WDFW too often. Look at the Chehalis Basin Chinook under escapement the past decade? The person who managed that got promoted!

The department's management can be fixed. It'll take some new blood and a stronger conviction from the Commission.

No argument but the Chinook on the Chehalis but they pale as to problems compared to Humptulips Wild Coho ( or what is left ) I agree to T3's thought that if WDFW staff screw the pooch the fish and users pay the piper. Staff just trots on down the road drawing a check as most do not fish. Your tax dollars at work.

Since QIN and non-treaty commercials won't or can't fish selectively, the easiest way to conserve wild Hump coho is to close the Humptulips hatchery. I'm not anti-hatchery, but it seems more and more that the zeal to harvest surplus hatchery chinook and coho is the direct cause of under-escaped salmon runs. If fisheries are dependent on natural production, at least there is an incentive to manage for wild fish abundance. Not to mention, the Hump is great coho habitat, probably better than the Chehalis on a hectare by hectare basis.

Sg

Is the log still blocking Saatsop boating?

Why????? At 2900 cfs and March 31 close......clean your gear...wait for better days.

Would be a fast driftboat ride.........

It cleared out a while ago. Tomorrow is last day river is open and Drifterwa is right. She is high, dirty and fast.

Think I might float the Satsop late in the week anyway. I had reconstructive surgery on my elbow in August and have not pulled on the sticks since last April - the longest non-rowing streak in almost 50 years. I'll probably catch a few corkies, and maybe a plug or two.