I understand the points do have an effect, but there's no way of calculating the odds based on points since none of that information is known. But I just assume, as I said, that many, if not most people applying for those permits have the maximum number of points possible, or close to it. Just say for instance that everybody applying for a particular permit have exactly the same number of points. In that case everybody would have the same odds. I know that's not the case with the Margaret permit, but it's probably safe to say that at least half of the applicants have been applying since the beginning of the point system and have not drawn, so they would all now have 12 points. With that many people with that many points, the odds of 1 individual person drawing are still astronomical, even if he has the maximum 12 points. I imagine people with 12 points may have odds of more like 1 in 70 to 1 in 80. Still not good. And, with the increased number of permits due to the plan to reduce the st helens elk herd, and the decrease in good, quality elk habitat in the unit, the unit is going downhill fast, and 10 years from now I'm sure it will not be worth the 22 points some of you will have saved up by then.