hey thanks for your input musicman, I was raised in washington and most of the hunting i did was stalking or drive's, It wasent untill i got to north carolina with their regs ( got to be 8 feet off the ground when hunting with a center fire rifle) that I started using a tree stand. I personally love using them now. I am sure that a creek bed with hard woods would probably be the tickit as one could climb a good ways up. well thanks agin for your thoughts on it. Who know's maybe I can get BW up in a tree stand