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#1010557 - 06/17/19 10:35 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Salmo g.]
Bay wolf Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 915
Loc: Graham, WA
How do you feel about the Commissioners being full time employees. Not elected, but appointed and receive full time positions.

There should also be a better vetting process, and video interviews of the candidates made public before the appointments. That would give us the opportunity to communicate to the Governor's office on who we feel is the most "qualified" candidate.

Maybe special employees of the Natural Resources Department. (Certainly NOT WDFW since they have supervision over the Director of WDFW)

The Fish and Wildlife management is far too large and convoluted to be overseen on a part time bases.

If the Commissioners were appointed terms, with pay, I believe they would have the time to do a better job.


If that was the case, then things might be run a little different.

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#1010558 - 06/17/19 11:12 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
As to "come into my office to see information" I know a former WDFW employee who actually wrote up a PDR to get data from another WDFW program.

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#1010569 - 06/17/19 01:24 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
As to "come into my office to see information" I know a former WDFW employee who actually wrote up a PDR to get data from another WDFW program.


That might be more egregious than the Feds' local situation where the EPA has told NOAA/NMFS that an expensive (and I suspect less than timely) permit would be required to dispose of a whale carcass via the deep six method........but that it is entirely okay to tow a carcass to a beach and let it decay.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1010581 - 06/17/19 05:07 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Why not just leave the whales there? Lots of critters eat them.

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#1010582 - 06/17/19 05:26 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Why not just leave the whales there? Lots of critters eat them.


There?? Well, that would have been somewhere in Elliott Bay (floater before being towed to Whidbey Island), beach park in Everett before being towed to Camano Island and then the floater out of the Admiralty Inlet shipping lanes towed to the Port Hadlock area - all with the approval of NOAA/NMFS.

We went through a summer about 8 years ago with a dead whale having been towed to the beach just south of us. Pretty nasty in the heat of summer and a prevailing south wind.

But the point of my having mentioned it was the non sequitor requirement of the EPA for another Federal agency to need a permit in order to sink a dead whale. Sorry, simply doesn't pass the whiff test.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1010583 - 06/17/19 05:39 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It doesn't. But anyone who has worked in Gubmint knows that agency's don't talk to themselves very well, much less outside entities.

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#1010618 - 06/18/19 06:58 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3246
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Well the dance continues and it appears WDFW is sucking wind. Take the link to the website and you can hit the legal fillings links at the bottom of the latest update.

June 18, 2019 Update #4- Judge rules discovery and video depositions can move forward in the Advocacy's legal challenge to WDFW's co-management season setting practices

In the second round in Thurston County Superior Court, Judge Price set the structural process for the Advocacy legal challenge to North of Falcon season setting by WDFW. At the same time, he heard arguments regarding discovery and the Advocacy's ability to use video tape in depositions of WDFW staff.

WDFW argued that video taped depositions of individual employees such as Rules Coordinator Scott Bird were too hard on WDFW staff. Mr. Bird provided a declaration to the court explaining his concern over a recent correspondence between WDFW's Mike Grossman and Advocacy's Joe Frawley discussing the legal ramifications for someone altering the record. The idea "....I could be involved in criminal activity is very offensive and threatening to me." He added "This has upset me a great deal".

Advocacy President Tim Hamilton responded in opposition to Bird's declaration with an explanation of how WDFW depositions were required to lay out all the facts stating " WDFW will simply not disclose how the seasons are set and what occurs behind the scenes between WDFW, the Governor's office, the tribal co-managers and the federal agencies."

Judge Price then set the path forward noting that the Advocacy would be entitled to discovery over the public records related to the North of Falcon season setting process and be allowed video-taped depositions of WDFW staff.

The Bird and Hamilton declarations are available for view of downloading on the Advocacy website under Legal Issues HERE. http://thfwa.org/legal-issues


Edited by Rivrguy (06/18/19 07:02 PM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1010619 - 06/18/19 07:23 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3246
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

This the guys latest for those that want it down and dirty. Best to link to the site to get the full flavor and links.


IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON
IN AND FOR THURSTON COUNTY
8

9 TWIN HARBORS FISH AND WILDLIFE ADVOCACY, a Washington nonprofit
10 corporation,
11 Petitioner,
12 vs.
13 WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH & WILDLIFE, an agency of the State of
14 Washington,
15
Respondent.

) No. 19-2-02319-34
)
) DECLARATION OF TIM HAMILTON
) IN SUPPORT OF PETITIONER’S REPLY
) FOR MOTION ALLOWING VIDEOTAPING
) OF DEPOSITION PURSUANT TO
) CR 30(b)(8)(B)
)
)
)
)
)

16 )
17

18 TIM HAMILTON declares and states as follows:
19 1. I am the president of the Twin Harbors Fish & Wildlife Advocacy (hereinafter
20
“THFWA”) in this matter, I am over 18 years of age and competent to testify, and make this
21
22 declaration based upon my own personal knowledge.
23 2. I have served on the Willapa Bay Ad Hoc Committee, which was an advisory
24 board organized by Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife (“WDFW”), and currently sit as
25 an advisor on the Willapa Bay Salmon Advisory Committee. I have attended over 30 meetings
26
during North of Falcon (“NOF”) and presentations to the WDFW Commission. I am familiar with NOF and how WDFW presents NOF to the public.





- 1 of 4

SCHEFTER & FRAWLEY
Attorneys at Law
1415 College Street SE






1 3. I reviewed the WDFW website after Mr. Grossmann forwarded the links to
2 Mr. Frawley. There are some materials related to NOF on the WDFW website, but much of
3
the relevant information cannot be found. There are no records related to the WDFW
4
5 meetings with tribal representatives or the federal government. There is no record of the
6 negotiations, and none of the likely thousands of communications that result in the fishing
7 regulations are on the website. None of the dozens of model runs (WDFW uses large Excel
8
spreadsheets to determine the impacts of the various fishing seasons) could be found. In
9
short, almost none of the meaningful information is on the website.
10
11 4. I attended the NOF meetings this year. No meaningful input was given,
12 although I was not at every meeting across the state and it is possible that other meetings
13 were conducted differently. We were told by WDFW that the tribal co-managers had refused
14
to negotiate potential seasons and that, as a result, WDFW did not have any potential seasons
15
16 or regulations for the public to consider. Really all that had been done was WDFW
17 presenting its forecasted salmon runs, which it emphasized were not yet agreed to by the
18 tribal co-managers and therefore not official, and then overlay last year’s regulations to this
19 year’s forecast. It was again emphasized that the seasons would be different than last years,
20
so this process is largely meaningless (the public has taken to referring to NOF as the “dog
21
22 and pony show”). This continued until after the NOF meetings were over. My
23 understanding, although the public is not allowed at the meetings, is that WDFW and the
24 tribal co-managers reached an agreement (the LOAF) in California after the last of the NOF
25
meetings were over.
26
5. In the past, I have attempted to obtain meaningful information related to season settings from WDFW. In 2016, I filed a public records request pursuant to the Public





- 2 of 4

SCHEFTER & FRAWLEY
Attorneys at Law
1415 College Street SE






1 Records Act. It is attached hereto as Exhibit “A.” As the Court can see, I was attempting to
2 gain information related to the interaction by WDFW and the tribal co-managers. WDFW’s
3
responses to the request are ongoing almost three years later. I last received a response on
4
5 May 29, 2019 and was told to expect another response on July 8, 2019. Attached hereto as
6 Exhibit “B” is the latest transmission from WDFW. Most of the information received is
7 irrelevant and does not disclose any interaction between WDFW and the tribal co-managers.
8
Instead, WDFW appears to be attempting to bury me in paper by submitting thousands of
9
pages of documents such as redd counts (salmon spawning beds) for pink salmon and other
10
11 related, but not all that helpful, information. Nothing has been produced to answer the
12 specific questions, such as internal policies, why there is a deviation from the 50/50 split of
13 harvestable salmon required by United States v. Washington, 384 F. Supp. 312 (W.D. Wash.
14
1974), aff'd, 520 F.2d 676 (9th Cir. 1975) (the “Boldt Decision”), or an explanation of how
15
16 the 2016 List of Agreed Fisheries was arrived at.
17 6. In September of 2017 I again attempted to obtain information from WDFW
18 related to fishing regulations. I emailed Mr. Bird requesting information in response to a
19 notice he published with the Code Reviser. Attached hereto as Exhibit “C” are emails
20
between Mr. Bird and me. As the Court can see, Mr. Bird initially ignored my email for
21
22 roughly two weeks. I followed up with him, and he informed me that he did not have any
23 information related to the proposed rule (concerning commercial fishing) and indicated that
24 he was going to treat my request as a public document request under the Public Records Act.
25
I never heard from anyone concerning the purported public document request and never
26
received any documents from WDFW.

7. It is impossible to get complete information from WDFW. I have tried public





- 3 of 4


SCHEFTER & FRAWLEY
Attorneys at Law
1415 College Street SE






1 records request, requests to the rules coordinator, information communications, attending
2 commission meetings, and serving on advisory committees. WDFW simply will not disclose
3
how the seasons are set and what occurs behind the scenes between WDFW, the Governor’s
4
5 office, the tribal co-managers and the federal agencies.
6 DATED this 12th day of June, 2019.
7

8

9

10

11 TIM HAMILTON
12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26









- 4 of 4


SCHEFTER & FRAWLEY
Attorneys at Law
1415 Colle
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1010620 - 06/18/19 07:33 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If you didn't do anything illegal, then there is no problem. It kinda sorta looks like WDFW told him what to do, which he did and then found out it just might not comply with law.

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#1010623 - 06/18/19 11:39 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Is Mr. Bird an attorney?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1010624 - 06/19/19 05:28 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Larry B]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3246
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
No he is the rules coordinator for WDFW. His responsibility as I understand it, is to maintain the public record or how a WAC / law is created. Sorta who, where and what happened to create a rule / WAC. I think the who and how bit is the part that is in question as back room deals out of the public eye are illegal.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1010625 - 06/19/19 05:44 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 210
Loc: Skagit
Sent them another donation to keep up the fight.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#1010627 - 06/19/19 06:31 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12527
I find myself thinking that this lawsuit just might be the most important interaction between citizens and WDFW ever. What possible reason could WDFW have for not sharing public information with the public? Unless WDFW is a scofflaw. The irony of course is that we get to fund both sides of the conflict. This bugs me in the same way that the scumbag Legislature is using taxpayer dollars to defend itself from the public disclosure lawsuit it's involved in with the news media.

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#1010628 - 06/19/19 06:33 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 210
Loc: Skagit
"The irony of course is that we get to fund both sides of the conflict."

One has to decide if the desirable outcome is worth the cost. To me, it is.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#1010630 - 06/19/19 06:54 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Coming down on the side of WDFW, at least a bit, is there are a couple of things to consider.

The APA does not fit with the salmon season development process, probably in a variety of ways. Timelines is one. The probably biggie is that the APA was crafted (can the Leg really craft anything) to develop rules where all those affected by the rules (must follow them) are part of the process. NOF, PSC, PSMFC are not that as other states/countries/tribes are involved who are not subject to the rules. So the process needs fixing, and that is the job of the Legislature. Which they will get to right after they fix school funding, mental health find, infrastructure, their own open-records, etc.

Another, and perhaps the one that brings the most heartache to recs is that WDFW has not and will not clearly articulate "why" things are done. In my experience, the agency has been reluctant to educate stakeholders about Boldt, Hoh V. Baldridge, ESA, and so on except when forced. A prime example is that before he was Director, Phil Anderson was asked why recs could not have a C&R steelhead fishery on the Hoh the last half of April. NI fish were available, the agency admitted that. His response is "We got the fishery we wanted". He refused to identify "we", or why "we wanted it" or why it was acceptable. There may have been good reasons. But, as folks here note on Stilly trout, the reasons don't pass the red-faced or smell test.

Opening the meetings carries a risk to the tribes for inter and intra-tribal airing of issues. It carries risk for WDFW as to why the Tribes are appeased. It carries risk to NOAA as to why they roll over as they do.

And, if anybody takes the fall, it will low down the food chain like Mr. Bird.

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#1010631 - 06/19/19 07:11 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Carcassman]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 210
Loc: Skagit
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
are part of the process. NOF, PSC, PSMFC are not that as other states/countries/tribes are involved who are not subject to the rules.

Seeing as there is nothing involving national security this seems like a very small obstacle. The feds created this mess and seem to have directed WDFW and the state to break their own law by conducting secret meetings with the tribes.

As Salmo has mentioned elsewhere, it is not the job of WDFW to make NMFS's job easier. Apply for their own permit and all this [Bleeeeep!] might become irrelevant.

If you absolutely need to buy a car, and I am the only source for that purchase, do you think you'll get a fair deal?
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#1010632 - 06/19/19 07:34 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: _WW_]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3246
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
I think you got it CC. WDFW had trouble getting timelines to match / merge so the NOF process was designed. The problem there is the decisions were already made & finalized before a citizen could even comment. Take GH and the 26th you can go to the R6 office to comment on the CR 102 ( WAC for seasons ) but it is already a done deal on the FED register and up on WDFW's website as to be adopted the 26th. NOF is smoke and mirrors and violates about every standard for open government I know of.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1010633 - 06/19/19 07:46 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Salmo g.]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4543
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
I find myself thinking that this lawsuit just might be the most important interaction between citizens and WDFW ever. What possible reason could WDFW have for not sharing public information with the public? Unless WDFW is a scofflaw. The irony of course is that we get to fund both sides of the conflict. This bugs me in the same way that the scumbag Legislature is using taxpayer dollars to defend itself from the public disclosure lawsuit it's involved in with the news media.


I agree with the full statement BUT its really chaps my lips, the part I colored in red......The Legislature is elected by the people of this State and should be "fully accountable to the general public"....they should do "business above board" and it shouldn't take a PDR to find out what and how the business is getting done.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

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#1010637 - 06/19/19 08:06 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Gawd, I am defending them again. How can you have meaningful NI input if you have to have Tribal/Canadian/Alaskan agreement?

Certainly open meetings of some sort. The timeline needs to be extended, which probably means negotiations occur in the summer or fall before the next year's seasons are agreed-to. Anybody ever laid out the actual time line here as to when things must be done by and compare that with a negotiation process? NOF is smoke and mirrors for the public, but what is a "legal" option?

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#1010642 - 06/19/19 09:48 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12527
Carcassman,

I think the critics of the NOF process are mainly asking for transparency in government, as the law requires. That could be achieved by having CCTV at the sessions. I don't know if that's available in real time, but I can watch a WDFW Commission meeting later on the same day it happens.

Sg

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