Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#1010648 - 06/19/19 10:33 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Salmo g.]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2744
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Carcassman,

I think the critics of the NOF process are mainly asking for transparency in government, as the law requires. That could be achieved by having CCTV at the sessions. I don't know if that's available in real time, but I can watch a WDFW Commission meeting later on the same day it happens.

Sg


Hard to envision why in this day and age of technology real time airing would not be easy to accomplish. Having real time visibility would go a long ways in meeting the goal for transparency in the process and would seem to minimize concerns regarding potential manipulation of an official record taped for later viewing. That said, those those proceedings should concurrently be recorded for future access by the public.

Exactly whose ox is WDFW trying to prevent from being gored by the position it has taken???
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
#1010650 - 06/19/19 10:46 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Rivrguy]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2744
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy
No he is the rules coordinator for WDFW. His responsibility as I understand it, is to maintain the public record or how a WAC / law is created. Sorta who, where and what happened to create a rule / WAC. I think the who and how bit is the part that is in question as back room deals out of the public eye are illegal.


I know the position Mr. Bird holds within the Department but was wondering if he is an attorney; that is, has a law degree and maybe passed the Bar in Washington State.

A little research into the WA Bar Association found a Scott A. Bird licensed to practice law in WA and who lives in Oly and whose profile shows his office type as Government/ Public Sector: https://www.mywsba.org/PersonifyEbusiness/LegalDirectory/LegalProfile.aspx?Usr_ID=000000019714.

If as I suspect this is WDFW's Scott Bird it may in part explain his professed concerns about being deposed. You know, after having raised his hand promising to tell the truth.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
#1010652 - 06/19/19 10:59 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5543
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If he is an attorney that will make the whole thing more interesting and the stakes higher.

Transparency is fine and a good goal because then we know what is going on and why. But I think part of the suit concerns the fact that there is no meaningful input, that the regs are agreed-to without input from stakeholders.

While nice to know just why we were sold down the river, I think the process is supposed to allow meaningful input to prevent such sales.

Top
#1010657 - 06/19/19 11:11 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2744
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Each goal on its own is laudable; one just more difficult to implement while the other is a "no brainer" in terms of complying with the law and its underlying intent.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
#1010661 - 06/19/19 12:33 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Graham, WA
Way back when I first got involved in this, I was at a commission meeting in Vancouver. Mike Grossman gave a presentation to the Commission on the legal bases as to why they don't have to allow public oversight in the NOF negotiations. There was no mention in that argument about Gov't to Gov't nor any voicing of tribal objection. It was why the state does not have to comply with the OPMA!

During a break, Ron Warren approached me and suggested that if they video taped the negotiations, subject to editing, would I go away? Of course, a video tape of the meetings would be no more transparent than what we have now. Especially if it was edited. So you can imagine how far I told him to shove that idea.

It's curious how the state can live stream the made up "plenary sessions" that they created as a ploy for transparency, and can't stream the negotiations.

The fact of the matter is, the state does NOT want the public to know the facts. They have not followed the law and they have not managed the resources in a manner that is ethical or conducive to fair, just and sound principles.

They created the smoke screen of "public participation" over time and are now so deep in the well of secrecy that even some staff members have no real idea what truth and transparency is. There are senior staff members that honestly believe that the public has no business knowing how they do things, and that is the greatest issue of all.
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

Top
#1010682 - 06/19/19 04:07 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3316
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
OK folks this is a double post as I did this for GH on the FTC thread for Chehalis Basin folks and this is interesting. If you are following this thread on the Advocacy legal challenge on transparency you will be amazed at this one. In a effort to blunt this WDFD changed how you can track the WAC / APA process. If you go to the website and type in RULES in the search box you get current rule making page, then click on the one you want Grays Harbor, Willapa, ect to get to pages with a absolute document dump. This link is right to the current rule making page.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/development
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1010686 - 06/19/19 04:49 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1154
Loc: Tacoma
Several letters I have written to Mr. Baltzell appear in the dump. I did not post them as I did not want to put out his responses directly without permission. Now that there public I guess I can. I wrote this letter earlier this year.

Mark,
We are now into mid-February, so I am wondering if any headway has been made with the Skokomish Tribe in opening the river. Also, you mentioned in the past that the state was thinking about getting a long term Chinook management plan that is approved by NOAA fisheries. This first came up on 2016 and was discussed at that time, but apparently not pursued That was almost 3 years ago, so I am wondering why there has been a delay. I realize is was limited and for a one time exemption, but the tribe was able to present a passable option in less a very short time. My guess is that it has not been a priority, but if not, then why.


Thanks


Mark L ....

and this was the response.>>

Hi Mark

At the risk of being too optimistic, I can tell you that our new Director has had 1 meeting with the Skokomish and is slated to have another this week. He has stated to them that fishing on the river was one of his priorities. We should have an answer to the question by mid-April when the North of Falcon meetings wrap up.

The state, the co-managers and NOAA have been working for the past several years on a new Chinook plan. There are just a couple of outstanding details to wrap up and I am confident that a new plan will be submitted by the summer.

Hope my brief answers help.

Mark


I have written follow up letters asking for a explanation and any additional details about the opening or what happened, but have gotten no responses.


What I did not see in the dump was this earlier email. It could be in there, but if it is I did not see it. I suppose it may have been too early to be considered part of this years NOF comments.

Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2018 9:59 am
Subject: Skokomish River Update
Good Morning Mr.......,
Thank you for your inquiry as to where things stand with regards to returning a sport fishing season on the Skokomish river. I can relay to you that this is also a priority for our new Director and our Agency. As you know we are getting ready to enter our yearly process to set salmon seasons called North of Falcon (NOF). Our new director, Kelly Susewind, has already had a face to face meeting with the Skokomish tribal leaders and both sides have agreed to meet on this very topic again in January, prior to heading into the NOF negotiations. Please know that the department is exploring all of our options as we move forward in time to not only re-establish a season on the river, but ensure opportunities for years to come.
As to what happened last year, I can tell you very plainly that tribal leadership from all of the Puget Sound Treaty Tribes agreed that the Skokomish boundary dispute would not be discussed during NOF. They indicated that if the State discussed a fishery in the river or made any attempts to put in a season , then the tribes would walk away from negotiations without an agreement on fishing seasons for everyone. Leadership at the Department felt it was better to keep talking and working on a long term solution rather than risking not having salmon seasons for anyone who fishes in and around Puget Sound.
I am more than happy to try and answer any further questions you may have on this manner. Please feel free to contact me directly at the information below.

Mark E Baltzell
Washington Dept of Fish and Wildlife
Puget Sound Fisheries Management
1111 Washington St SE
NRB 6th Floor
Olympia, WA 98501
Office : 360-902-2807
Cell : 360-688-3410
Fax : 360-249-4628
Email: mark.baltzell@dfw.w.gov

Top
#1010687 - 06/19/19 04:52 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1154
Loc: Tacoma
What is also missing from all the rule making emails and comments is any input or emails that may have went back and forth between the tribes and the state or the legislature or Govenor. Should these have been included? I am trying to figure out what they are attempting to do by putting this out there now.

Top
#1010688 - 06/19/19 05:08 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1154
Loc: Tacoma
Also notice,that in the data section showing agreed upon expected returns, there are numbers for all the salmon except Chinook. I don't know if this was a mistake, if I am just missing it, or if it was omitted on purpose.

Top
#1010689 - 06/19/19 05:51 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 217
Loc: Skagit
Too bad we don't have video of the tribal threat to walk out.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

Top
#1010695 - 06/19/19 07:48 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: _WW_]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3316
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
So this what is known as a paper blizzard and rather large one in a rather unusual way because if you had done a PDR it would have taken years to provide this much information. This information was always supposed to be available in the APA / WAC process. Second thing look for what is missing. Things such as staff to staff and policy staff to regional. Agency to tribe & tribe to agency. Communications to PFMC, NOAA, and others in the harvest process.

Most of what I have seen so far is citizen to staff one on one or some cc's. To understand this weak attempt at compliance it is stuff feeding the process that other than presentations few citizens would know are in the mix, which is WDFW's intent. How can you comment support or position if you do not know it is in the mix. Then the main issue, all these folks are participating in the process lacking knowledge of the full extent of the conversation with and to staff let alone what staff is communicating with other entities.

Simply put smoke and mirrors / dog and pony show is the intent of the WDFW NOF process.


Edited by Rivrguy (06/19/19 09:07 PM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1010706 - 06/19/19 09:44 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12617
As eyeFish would say, "GDITMMM!"

Top
#1010709 - 06/20/19 07:00 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5543
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with [Bleeeeep!].

Top
#1011214 - 06/30/19 05:30 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3316
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
This should be interesting. During the NOF process in Montesano for Grays Harbor I heard staff tell a former Adviser if he wanted information talk to his Adviser. Now the Advisers are appointed by the Director and represent only themselves, in other words he was stonewalled. So read below and consider this. If you filed a PDR on the 2019 CR 102 WAC to obtain information it will take up to three years to obtain the information, if only three years. In other words WDF&W want you to comment on the 2019 WAC ( LOAF ) that was already agreed to with the Feds & Tribal Nations without the information on how, when, where, & how the decision was made. Now that is a violation of the APA ( WAC process ) just about anyway you look at it, let alone a total disregard of citizen rights under the law. WDF&W evidently feels laws do not apply to them.



June 30, 2019 Update #5- Advocacy files a second suit challenging WDFW's secretive season setting processes.

The Advocacy has filed a second suit in Thurston County court in its ongoing legal battle with WDFW over its secretive salmon season setting processes. This time the issue is over the Department's performance related to the Public Records Act. This action rose out of WDFW's refusal to maintain a rule making file available for view by the public as required by state law. When the Advocacy notified the Department a team would becoming to view the file for the season set in 2018 and the process underway in 2019, WDFW took the remarkable step of claiming the Advocacy or other members of the public had to file a Public Document Request (PDR) to view the rule making files (see June 3, 2019 Update #3- below).

In the latest filing, the Advocacy notes for the court that it had already taken that route by filing a PDR request three years ago for the records of the "List of Agreed Fisheries" (LOAF) adopted behind closed doors in 2016. Three years later, the request is still open and the Advocacy is still receiving a monthly trickle of records (mostly irrelevant) that were created and known to the Department years ago. Accordingly, the second suit alleges WDFW intentionally and purposefully delayed delivery of some records and refused to disclose other requested records.

The Advocacy believes this second suit will prove a valuable tool to educate the court on why the public can not wait three years for WDFW to process a PDR to access information for participation in the North of Falcon season setting process when the comment period set by WDFW is due to expire in three months. We also believe the combination of the suits will show all that WDFW is setting salmon seasons in a manner that is contrary to the Open Public Meeting Act (OPMA), Administrative Procedures Act (APA), and the Public Records Act (PRA).


The latest suit is available for viewing HERE http://thfwa.org/legal-issues
[color:#FF0000][/color]


Edited by Rivrguy (06/30/19 05:31 PM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1011564 - 07/10/19 03:52 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3316
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Now this is new wrinkle and a substantial departure from the past. Quite the little dance going on with the legal compliance thing. They must have figured out something was a bit wrong and are trying to get a quick fix.




Meeting Announcement and Agenda - July 12, 2019
Natural Resource Building 1111 Washington Street SE Olympia, WA 98501
First Floor Room 172


.

1:00 PM

North of Falcon Rule Presentation and Approval - Briefing and Decision
Department staff will brief the Director on the proposed North of Falcon fishery rules noticed in prior CR 102 filings with the Code Reviser. Those proposed rules open and regulate 2019-20 fisheries in four groupings: Willapa Bay Commercial (WSR 19-11-075); Grays Harbor Commercial (WSR 19-11-076); Puget Sound Commercial (WSR 19-11-126); and Statewide Recreational (WSR 19-11-130). After briefing the Director, staff will request his decision providing for final adoption of those proposed rules.

Staff Report: Kyle Adicks, Intergovernmental Salmon Manager


Edited by Rivrguy (07/10/19 03:53 PM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1011569 - 07/10/19 08:35 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5543
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Isn't doing this now, asking for the Director's approval to adopt the regs, kind of an admission that the process wasn't legally kosher?

Also, if they are asking to adopt the regs under what legal authority are they fishing now?

Or are those minor, insignificant details and I missed the "Big Picture"?

Top
#1011571 - 07/10/19 08:49 PM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Graham, WA
There are more than a few questions this announcement raises.

Has the Commission "delegated" its authority to adopt rules to the director? If so, then their argument that they are not subject to the OPMA goes right out the window.

How can the pamphlet be published if the rules are not approved?

Why are they now making such a show out of public notification of the rules adoption? Where was this announcement for the 2018-2019 or before seasons?

Is this a "public" meeting?

Have the Commissioners signed off on the rules?

This is all very strange indeed, and smells of an attempt to pull the wool over the judges eyes in an attempt to show how transparent they are.




Top
#1011574 - 07/11/19 06:30 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 217
Loc: Skagit
It seems like some kind of formality that was previously on autopilot.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

Top
#1011575 - 07/11/19 06:58 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5543
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Does this mean that all of the fishing done since 7/1/19 has been actually illegal as there were no underlying regulations? If that's the case, does one need a license to fish in a fishery that is not legally open? Or, if WDFW does not have to comply with state law to make the rules, why do we have to comply with their rules?

Top
#1011576 - 07/11/19 11:06 AM Re: WDFW LAWSUIT: RULES COORD. SCOTT BIRD SUBPOENAED [Re: Bay wolf]
Tug 3 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 116
Would someone clue me in on what is happening here? The new (July 2019) rules have not been adopted? A short explanation by one of you "in the know guys" would help out a hillbilly like me.

Top
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
Christoffer Marshall Ross, hammer, Lakestevenslocal
Recent Gallery Pix
Gibbs Delta Time Capsule
Driftin'
Who's Online
2 registered (eddie, Carcassman), 268 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
northwesttubefly, Craig S., Ed Koch, Sawcraft70, G rod
11446 Registered Users
Top Posters
Hankster 32441
Todd 25184
Sol Duc 15686
Dan S. 15488
elparquito 13631
stam 13018
Salmo g. 12617
eyeFISH 12451
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
Forum Stats
11446 Members
18 Forums
76920 Topics
899210 Posts

Max Online: 1146 @ 12/09/19 02:11 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |