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#1020790 - 01/28/20 03:59 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Leg moves the Agency to DNR under an elected Head.

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#1020793 - 01/28/20 05:42 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Geoduck]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Geoduck
Seems to me that Susewind's stint at WDFW director is already over. He just doesn't know it yet. Letting Warren call the shots got Unsworth fired and Susewind has doubled down and made the exact same mistake. Its just a matter of time until the chickens come home. . .

Perhaps I am wrong and the commission will get dissolved instead of the director getting fired. However, the status quo cannot continue-- dramatic change will occur pretty soon. The WDFW management paradigm and public input process is so utterly broken there are not sufficient words in the English language to describe the ineptitude.

Maybe this lawsuit will be the catalyst for that change.


We warned Susewind regarding Warren shortly after the announcement that Warren was moving into the new position of Director of Fish Policy. Of course, we had hoped that Chair Carpenter would have spoken to Susewind before that and let him know that Warren had a BIG part of the Chinook Harvest Management plan that cost Unsworth his job. Warren also had a hand in Phil Andersons departure. Doesn't take a genius to smell where the stink is coming from. I can't believe that Warren went unscathed after the firing of Unsworth, but he did, and he's still doing the dirty deeds in the dark!

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#1020794 - 01/28/20 06:14 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1202
Loc: Tacoma
Sorry, wrong thread


Edited by Krijack (01/28/20 06:15 PM)

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#1020801 - 01/28/20 07:14 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
Re-reading Kyle Adicks deposition, I picked up on this. This is questioning about the "Public Meeting Notice" email that was sent out last July announcing a public meeting to witness Director Susewind signing the CR103s (This is our rules). Now we all know that the List of agreed fisheries (LOAF) was already done and set in stone long before this was signed, and that the Director signing the 103s is only an administrative formality. But what I really find amazing is the thought process that went into planning this "Open Meeting" . Read Kyle's response and you will see. The senior staff at WDFW essential admitting that they are fully aware that the way they do business is against the law, and they attempt to cover it up with this stupid Open meeting signing ceremony instead of looking to correct the real issue of secret meetings!



7 (Exhibit No. 8 marked.)
8 Q It's my understanding there was a meeting announced, it
9 looks like, July 10. The meeting, it looks like, occurred
10 on July 12. I've handed you what's been marked Exhibit 8,
11 which is the announcement from Fish and Wildlife, an email
12 announcement, announcing that meeting. Do you recall that?
13 A I do.
14 Q Whose idea was it to have that meeting?
15 A I don't recall it being any one person's idea. It was an idea that we had kicked around to have. We typically give the director a final briefing as he signs the 103s but to do
that in a notice to open public meeting to minimize the risk
of seasons being invalidated based on ongoing litigation.


[Bleeeeep!]!!! Thats what they call full and complete TRANSPARENCY?


Edited by Bay wolf (01/28/20 08:44 PM)
Edit Reason: Edited to make it easier to read. Did not add or remove any original wording.

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#1020806 - 01/28/20 08:30 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
Plain and simple...if this isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back--what then is??

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#1020823 - 01/29/20 08:07 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2993
I personally believe the Fish and Wildlife Commission should be dissolved. If it worked as allegedly intended and gave sporties a real voice, I would certainly feel differently. As it is, the Commission delegates all final decisions to the Director of WDFW. That effectively neuters us. We'd be better off without the proxy in place, because we could take our gripes straight to the Director's office instead of wasting our time chasing squirrels.

Public forums were once a legitimate means for citizens to actively influence important government decisions. In today's political era, where the politicians do whatever their contributors tell them to do (we don't contribute to campaigns like the other stakeholders, which pretty much entirely explains why we get $hit on all the time), citizen involvement is little more than an annoying formality.

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#1020825 - 01/29/20 08:24 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
We do make significant contributions. Licenses.

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#1020829 - 01/29/20 08:52 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
It has reached the point where some sort of full deal meal re-organization has become imperative. With the Commission under control of the Gov and AG while they both give priority to the Tribes, nothing but the status quo will continue. I'm in favor of scrapping this train wreck and bringing forth some new ideas.

There is enough firepower within the "regulars" of this forum to add to the equation and carry this through...and that alone would be the ultimate example of "Transparency".

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#1020833 - 01/29/20 10:20 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2831
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
I personally believe the Fish and Wildlife Commission should be dissolved. If it worked as allegedly intended and gave sporties a real voice, I would certainly feel differently. As it is, the Commission delegates all final decisions to the Director of WDFW. That effectively neuters us. We'd be better off without the proxy in place, because we could take our gripes straight to the Director's office instead of wasting our time chasing squirrels.

Public forums were once a legitimate means for citizens to actively influence important government decisions. In today's political era, where the politicians do whatever their contributors tell them to do (we don't contribute to campaigns like the other stakeholders, which pretty much entirely explains why we get $hit on all the time), citizen involvement is little more than an annoying formality.


I find that position more than a little disingenuous given the general perception that politicians in this State are owned by monied special interest groups.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1020835 - 01/29/20 10:36 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Larry B]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2993
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
I personally believe the Fish and Wildlife Commission should be dissolved. If it worked as allegedly intended and gave sporties a real voice, I would certainly feel differently. As it is, the Commission delegates all final decisions to the Director of WDFW. That effectively neuters us. We'd be better off without the proxy in place, because we could take our gripes straight to the Director's office instead of wasting our time chasing squirrels.

Public forums were once a legitimate means for citizens to actively influence important government decisions. In today's political era, where the politicians do whatever their contributors tell them to do (we don't contribute to campaigns like the other stakeholders, which pretty much entirely explains why we get $hit on all the time), citizen involvement is little more than an annoying formality.


I find that position more than a little disingenuous given the general perception that politicians in this State are owned by monied special interest groups.


I think we agree completely, as regards lobbying, Larry. I didn't mean to imply there was anything fair or righteous about the fact that special interests own the government; just stating the fact.

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#1020836 - 01/29/20 10:38 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2993
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
We do make significant contributions. Licenses.


I'm pleased that you recognize that, but I don't think WDFW does (or, at least they aren't acting like an agency that works on behalf of its funding stakeholders).

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#1020837 - 01/29/20 10:52 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The point being that buying licenses is a direct contribution to WDFW in support of the manner in which they operate.

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#1020842 - 01/29/20 11:04 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2993
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The point being that buying licenses is a direct contribution to WDFW in support of the manner in which they operate.

Indeed. I want to kick ny own a$$ every time I buy my license, but I still do it.

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#1020855 - 01/29/20 12:58 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 220
Loc: Skagit
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The point being that buying licenses is a direct contribution to WDFW in support of the manner in which they operate.

I consider it an unintended contribution to keep me from breaking the law! Same as getting a driver's license.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#1020866 - 01/29/20 01:38 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2831
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
I personally believe the Fish and Wildlife Commission should be dissolved. If it worked as allegedly intended and gave sporties a real voice, I would certainly feel differently. As it is, the Commission delegates all final decisions to the Director of WDFW. That effectively neuters us. We'd be better off without the proxy in place, because we could take our gripes straight to the Director's office instead of wasting our time chasing squirrels.

Public forums were once a legitimate means for citizens to actively influence important government decisions. In today's political era, where the politicians do whatever their contributors tell them to do (we don't contribute to campaigns like the other stakeholders, which pretty much entirely explains why we get $hit on all the time), citizen involvement is little more than an annoying formality.


I find that position more than a little disingenuous given the general perception that politicians in this State are owned by monied special interest groups.


I think we agree completely, as regards lobbying, Larry. I didn't mean to imply there was anything fair or righteous about the fact that special interests own the government; just stating the fact.



Yes, we are close in many of our perceptions.

However, regarding the suggestion to eliminate the Commission my point was that eliminating the Commission under the pretext that the alternative(s) would be more attentive to our concerns/issues ignores why we voted for a Commission in the first place.

Recognizing that many of our fisheries issues are extremely complex it is unrealistic in my opinion to expect Commissioners to know each and every detail (think NOF) but I do expect them to have outcome expectations and to evaluate outcomes against those initial expectations to achieve better results in the future.

In short, to clearly hold the Director and his Staff accountable.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1020872 - 01/29/20 02:48 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Director, and by extension the staff, have to accountable. The Commission should have a clear set of expectations. If not specific fisheries/hunts, then transparent processes and clean explanations as to what we have for the year.

They need to be doing their regulations legally and if that means going to the Legislature asking for specific exclusions to the APA, etc. But, clear, unambiguous, and with teeth if the Director fails.

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#1020887 - 01/29/20 05:03 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4668
Loc: Sequim
I spent 30 years working for a Commission run agency. I was consulted in 1994 about the Initiative to set up the Commission here and was supportive of it based on my experience.

One of the key differences between WDFW and my old agency is in the Commission selection process and trying to make sure politics is as removed as possible. My old agency was a subset of a larger Department. While the Governor was tasked, with the concurrence of the Senate, to select Commissioners the Commissioners were under the supervision of the Executive Director of the Department.

A key component, I think, in the selection process is posted below:

(c) Of the voting members appointed to the commission, there shall not be a difference of more than one person between those members affiliated with any major political party

When the office of Governor changes parties, then the make-up of the Commission swaps over with any new appointments.

I don't want to see the Commission dissolved. They are our best hope for the long term. I don't want to see WDFW absorbed into another agency and have to depend on an elected individual to oversee WDFW operations.

What I would like to see, for a start, is a full-on review of the WDFW structure, a clear outline of roles and responsibilities starting with the Director and going on down the chain available for public review. With that in place, then the Commission can provide the direction needed, operating through the Director, to establish a clear and streamlined chain of command.

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#1020916 - 01/30/20 07:09 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Personally, I think electing the Commissioners wold be a good start. Nine Commissioners, one chair, Six year terms, staggered with the election of 2 every two years and three (the chair) in one of them. Half the Commissioners must reside in Western WA and be elected by voters in those counties. The other half in Eastern. The Chair is elected statewide.. I can see that much of the time decisions will be close to 5-4, but each Commissioner will have to defend their votes/positions to the voters.

It will also mean that we will have to find candidates, vote for them, etc. Also means an increase in costs to better pay them. But, it will make the Commission, and by extension the Director, publicly accountable for actions.

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#1020920 - 01/30/20 09:15 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12879
I too favor having the WDFW Commission. I want to keep them as Governor appointments. While the democracy side of me likes the notion of electing the Commissioners from the various regions of the state, the reality that 97% of the state's population doesn't buy either hunting or fishing licenses makes me think that those elections would be like the local vote for my district fire commissioner or other lesser offices. Almost none of the electorate knows these people, and they never are going to inform themselves to the degree of casting an informed vote. Therefore, having the Governor make appointments from nominations supplied by the public - sport hunting and fishing orginizations, conservation groups, and yes, commercial fishing interests fulfills the Legislative intent of the Department's mission.

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#1020922 - 01/30/20 09:57 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2788
Loc: Marysville
I too favor keeping the commission as is. An imperfect solution but can not think of a better option.

But would like throw out an additional idea. We are at the end of 25 year experiment in agency organization. At the time of the merger of the old Department of fisheries and Department of Wildlife there was an intense discussion whether a centralized structure (DF model) or regional structure (DW model) was most appropriate. The decision was for the DF model. Pretty clear that has not worked!

To be fair there really is not a magical structure that solves organization problems; it is people. Each of the organization models have their strengths and weaknesses and for the managers their task is to recognize those weakness and develop strategies to minimize program impacts. From my view the current structure the major weakness is communication based. The communication failure is both within the agency and between the agency and its public. Within the agency the communication problem can be distilled down to two basic issues. One is too wide of chain of command and disconnect between the resource (and those familiar with that resource) and the ultimate decision makers (centralized).

The public communication problem is a bit more complex but may not be in-solvable. The trick is to develop trust that those most familiar with the resource can effectively with the public and how best to structure that communication.

Curt

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