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#1024258 - 03/09/20 10:53 AM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: GodLovesUgly]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2993
Originally Posted By: GodLovesUgly
Although habitat is a primary necessity for recovery it is pretty clear that our current river habitats are well below their carrying capacities and estimated productivity capabilities, even in their degraded state.

It is becoming ever clearer that a marine survival bottleneck also exists, stemming largely from food availability and continued declines in forage fish availability and zooplankton prey items for juveniles. Of particular concern are the affects of ocean acidification on the carapaces of shelled species, especially post-larval dungeness crap megalopa which are a key component of outmigrant smolt diets entering the marine environment.

Point being, although fisheries and particularly fisheries by-catch and northern intercepts are a major concern the environment itself is likely at the root of the problem. A warming and increasingly acidic ocean as a result of climate change is a much much larger nut to crack. If we can't even make the move to stop killing fish to save fish, I doubt humans as a species will be able to make the much larger sacrifices necessary to stop destroying the oceans to save fish.


Well said. While not cheap politically (the reason the ocean closure option won't be used), it costs nothing to reduce ocean harvest, and whatever payoff we got would be evident within a few years of simply sitting back and watching, at zero expense. If we find the habitat can only support the measly scraps we leave to spawn today, we can easily go back to the maximum harvest model. I don't thonk there is much political will to find out the truth....

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#1024268 - 03/09/20 11:57 AM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: eyeFISH]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1527
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
A few observations.

1) The ESA Committee (God Squad) can exempt Federal actions from the Endangered Species Act. The actions are something the Federal government either authorizes, funds or carries out. And there must be a situation where the ESA-listed species is being jeopardized by a Federal action, and there is no reasonable and prudent alternative that avoids jeopardy.

And more to the point, it is the ACTION the God Squad exempts, not the species (as OncyT correctly points out). So, if the action is exempted, the conservation burden falls on other sectors. For example, if a hydropower project is exempted, all the other H’s (habitat, harvest, hatcheries) have to overcome the unmitigated damage from the hydro project to ensure the species doesn’t go extinct. That’s great for the hydro project but really bad for the other H’s. So, in the end, an ESA exemption resolves nothing.

2) I would also note that virtually all salmon fisheries are mixed stock fisheries. Ocean harvest is the most obvious, and perhaps the worse, type of mixed stock fisheries. But the Buoy 10 fishery is also a mixed stock fishery. The salmon we’re harvesting at B-10 return to various parts of the Basin. Some of those stocks are strong, while others are ESA listed. And both return to the same area (B-10), at the same time (mid-August to early September), and it’s difficult (or impossible) to distinguish between healthy and weak stocks. That’s the exact definition of a mixed stock fishery. The best example is Fall Chinook from the Hanford Reach and the Snake River (both have wild adults).

So while I agree that mixed stock fisheries are a contributing factor in the decline of Pacific salmon, almost all of us participate in a mixed stock fishery whenever we put a line in the water. The only exception might be terminal harvest just below a salmon hatchery (e.g., Blue Creek on the Cowlitz, Drano Lake in the Columbia Gorge).

3) The Salmon Technical Team at PMFC has a ‘No Fishing’ option for North of Falcon fisheries. Under that option, there would be no ocean harvest of Chinook or coho from the Canadian border south to Cape Falcon (between Cannon Beach and Manzanita). That covers the entire Washington coast and about quarter of the Oregon Coast. In my view, that’s not a huge area, given the range of Chinook, coho, and SRKW’s.

However, if PFMC adopted a “No Fishing” option for SE Alaska, and the BC Coast (which they can’t do since they have no jurisdiction in Canada), that would be VERY helpful. Nevertheless, a “No Fishing” option in Washington and a slice of Oregon would send a huge and urgent message to the folks in BC and Alaska about the state of the salmon on the Pacific Coast.

Desperate times call for desperate measures……..
_________________________
MSB

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#1024283 - 03/09/20 01:32 PM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: cohoangler]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3463
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Rather broad description of mixed stock fisheries. Mixed stock is normally defined by rivers of origin. Terminal yes also for limiters but in a much scaled down version, localized and somewhat manageable.

BC has long said that if the US gets AK off their fish they will get off ours.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1024325 - 03/09/20 03:34 PM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: Rivrguy]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1527
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy

Rather broad description of mixed stock fisheries. Mixed stock is normally defined by rivers of origin. Terminal yes also for limiters but in a much scaled down version, localized and somewhat manageable.

BC has long said that if the US gets AK off their fish they will get off ours.


I agree. As the fish get closer to their natal streams, the effect of mixed stock fisheries become less. That's why ocean harvest can be both damaging and difficult to assess. Those salmon caught in the open ocean could be from anywhere. As the fish get closer to their natal streams (e.g., Buoy 10) , the effect of the mixed stock fishery becomes manageable, but it doesn't disappear completely (ask the folks in Idaho).

When (or if) the fish arrive at their spawning grounds, the effect disappears entirely.
_________________________
MSB

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#1024354 - 03/09/20 10:22 PM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12555
PFMC 1 adjourned last night....

The options include the following quotas for state recreational fisheries off the Washington coast:

Option 1: 30,000 Chinook and 29,400 marked coho. This option includes an early season Chinook fishery from June 14 through June 28 in all ocean areas, followed by a Chinook and marked coho fishery from June 29 through Sept. 30.

Option 2: 22,125 Chinook and 22,500 marked coho. This option opens Chinook and coho fishing in all ocean areas from June 27 through Sept. 13.

Option 3: All ocean areas closed to salmon fishing.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1024845 - 03/12/20 07:02 AM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Wonder if the Coronavirus restrictions are going to shut down in in-person NOF meetings. Or, conversely, give a great opportunity to spread the bug.

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#1025785 - 03/15/20 06:29 PM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12555
March 12 Willapa Bay meeting was the last for warm bodies to attend for the rest of NOF.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1025875 - 03/16/20 08:02 AM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4664
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...

PFMC, needs to get in the real world.......more strict options need to "be on the table"

Option 2, has been the "go to option", over the past years....

IMO....the time "on the water needs to be added in, as a option"..... such as the following:

Open, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday......closed, completely, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

Tough times calls for strict rules......shouldn't fall on the "in river" fishers to bear the blunt of "conservation".....

Thousands of hours are spent on Salmon: NOF, PFMC, meetings at all levels.....Even on Fishing forums..

What about Washington State, Washington designated steelhead trout (Salmo gairdnerii) as the official state fish in 1969. WDFW does not want to have any "general public" meetings on steelhead. There are major problems with "wild steelhead" are sportsmen the problem????? When you take a look at Oregon steelhead fishing and Washington State steelhead fishing.....I hear no closures in Oregon, mmmmmm, what's the deal??????

It'll be fun, watching NOF meetings, on my laptop computer but "cast on" to my 65" TV. Fixed cams, while they get the job done.......meetings would be much better if there was a way to have the cam fixed on people doing/asking questions.
_________________________

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

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#1025954 - 03/16/20 09:56 PM Re: PFMC puts NO FISHING option on the table [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12555
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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