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#979020 - 08/11/17 10:26 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET *** [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Latest from R-6 on Willapa.



Update on Experimental Fishery –
 
Hello all,
 
As you all know, the Department has been following guidance in the Willapa Bay policy (C-3622) in developing alternative gear. The purpose has been to provide opportunity to target fishery harvests on abundant hatchery stocks, reduce the number of hatchery-origin fish in natural spawning areas, limit mortalities on non-target stocks, and provide commercial fishing opportunities. In pursuit of this purpose, the Department has initiated a number of steps (outlined below) to develop an opportunity for a fish trap in the Naselle tidewaters. Over the course of the process thus far, there have been a number of concerns expressed from the public on the use of fish trap gear. Although there have been discussions with commercial stakeholders, advisors and the public, there needs to be more public dialogue regarding the purpose, risks and benefits. Therefore, rather than continue to pursue the process for implementation in 2017, the Department would like to take the opportunity to solicit more public engagement to shape a successful program in 2018.
 
Steps taken in 2016-17
·       In 2016, staff sent a letter to the commercial stakeholders (on May 18, 2016 and again on December 15, 2016) asking for alternative gear ideas. The Department received a number of ideas, but only the fish trap proponent followed through by providing staff more information to help evaluate its potential.
·       In March of 2017, a presentation was made to the Fish and Wildlife Commission by the fish trap proponents that described a desire to fish outside of the normal commercial area and in August in order to be able to intercept hatchery-origin chinook and help meet the intent of the Willapa Bay policy. At that meeting the FWC asked staff to look into ways for moving forward with fishing a trap.
·       Staff identified two pathways that could provide opportunity to test whether or not fish trap gear could be used to recruit hatchery chinook. The first pathway was as a research project, funded by WDFW. However the Department was unable to identify the funds necessary to follow this path. The second pathway was to pursue an emerging commercial fishery.
·       An emerging commercial fishery would allow for a fish trap to legally operate, and there are two types of an emerging commercial fishery: a trial fishery and an experimental fishery. A trial fishery would have unlimited entry, an experimental fishery would have limited entry and would require a process by which the limits would be defined.
·       The Department initially pursued the trial fishery option with unlimited entry and filed the CR101 (notice of intended rule-making) on April 19, 2017. Staff held three meetings at the end of May and beginning of June to solicit input on the trial fishery (commercial stakeholders, advisor, and public). The same information was presented at all three meetings. As public input in the Rule Making process and interest in the trial fishery was collected, it became apparent that the unlimited nature of the trial fishery would make it difficult to maintain an orderly fishery and impose necessary fishery controls. Therefore, we rescinded the CR101 on June 13, 2017 and filed a new CR101 for an experimental fishery on June 14, 2017 to pursue a revised rule proposal that limits entry to the fishery using traps. 
·       The Department has convened a five member advisory board to provide comment on proposed limits to the number and qualifications of experimental fishery participants. Those advisors, were sent an initial proposal on limits on July 7, 2017 for review and will be in place until the Rule Making process is complete. Among other limiters, the proposal includes a random drawing from among qualified participants if the number exceeds the number of allowable permits.
·       Staff held three meetings to solicit input on the experimental fishery (commercial stakeholders, advisor, and public).  The same information was presented at all three meetings. Public concerns were raised over the impact that such a fishery would have on the freshwater recreational fishery and the limited amount of time the recreational community had to become familiar with the proposal.
 
Next Steps
·        Solicit interested parties this fall to apply for a position on an enhanced advisory group. In addition to advising the Department on fishery rules, this group will examine the role, benefits and impacts of using a fish trap in an experimental fishery. Information on the application process will be forthcoming.
·        Maintain information on the development of the experimental fishery on the WDFW website (http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/commercial/salmon/season_setting.html).
·        Convene a number of public advisory meetings and public workshops this fall and winter dedicated to examination of the utilization of fish trap gear.
·        Continue the Rule Making process for implementation in 2018.
 
Annette Hoffmann
Reg 6 Fish Program Manager
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#979239 - 08/25/17 09:10 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

This is a interesting bit. The verbiage below is from a document obtained in a PDR. That is the good part but then look to the highlighted line below. So what is this? Well they changed planting locations on the Nooch directed by Oly for reasons of straying. Problem? Ah yeah and why? The Summerrun plants are a segregated stock with no spawning time crossover and frankly cannot reproduce themselves naturally. So they changed things around to reduce straying of a segregated stock that cannot reproduce naturally. ( well maybe one here and there )

If that does not make you blink then try this. Notice below the line with " from reliable sources " and what in the hell is a reliable source? When questioned staff have refused to provide who and what " reliable sources " are and the so called data used. To be honest Summerrun come in and out of the Chehalis tribs as they move around so one would expect to catch some as they move around the estuary and tidewater.

DW has and is still going after the information and data with a PDR but you know this is a poster child for how not to do things.




4. Why the change?

Summer-runs:
In 2012 as directed by Fish Management, we began planting 15,000 summer-run smolts at the wynoochee trap operated by Tacoma city Light. In 2013, we suspended planting summer-runs at our Black Creek planting site. Our decision to stop planting summer-runs at black creek concerned stray rates of hatchery steelhead. Based on sport harvest of clipped summer-run steelhead on the E. Hoquiam, the Satsop river, and the Wishkah, from reliable sources, we felt that the planting site was too low in the river for good imprinting of steelhead smolts on Wynoochee river water. The black creek planting site is _3__river mile below the City of Aberdeen’s intake, which is where water is drawn for commercial water supplied to Lake Aberdeen and the Lake Aberdeen hatchery. Moving our lowest river planting site up to the ‘culvert hole’ at river mile__12_ is our attempt to reduce stray rates of hatchery steelhead.

Winter-runs:
Our reasons for moving the lowest planting site for winter-runs is also based on concerns of stray rates to other rivers within the Chehalis basin, essentially the same reasons we moved the lowest planting site for the summer-runs.
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#979245 - 08/25/17 01:06 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4993
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Follow up to the post above:


PDR, personal document request, is in the works !!!!!! I want to know who "from reliable sources, are. I also want to know how these "reliable sources" know that any steelhead caught on the Hoquiam, the Satsop, and the Wishkah came from any Wynoochee planted fish????

I also want to see any documental research that has been done on "straying" in the Chehalis basin.

I would like to know, also, if there is any documental data that change of planting site has eliminated straying?????

My request for the PDR is for the years 2010 - 2017......time will see what comes from this request????

Oh, planting sites on the Wynoochee were never a problem, before 2011. Winter run steelhead have been planted from Black Creek up river, for ever. Summer run plants started in 1978 or 1979, and followed the winter run planting sites. STRAYING was never talked about, at any meeting that I ever attended.....

Can WDFW document that "any straying fish" have spawned in another river???? I do want to see any research on the rivers in question....will be interesting. WDFW can't even document if there is any spawning of summer run in the Wynoochee River, no study that I'm aware of.

Time tells all........hope this PDR moves faster than the 25+ year, $2.4 million, mitigation monies that were/are to be spent for additional Coho Salmon and additional Steelhead in the Wynoochee River......yea, that's right, 25+ years of not getting Tacoma City Light, spent.......grrrrrrrrrr
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#979259 - 08/25/17 10:24 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3242
Never personally seen a Wynoochee summer run with an adipose fin. Don't personally recall hearing of one either. That leads me to believe they're not spawning very successfully in the Wynoochee.... Seems more like a cool shoulder opportunity than a biological crisis to me.

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#979567 - 09/08/17 06:21 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
I received ( among many others ) a Willapa update from Annette Hoffmann at Region 6 a update on fisheries in Willapa and if you want the information PM and I will send it to you. It has a lot of info but it is in attachment spread sheets but it is interesting to say the least.

One should view this with some questions or rather just the word what? While flows are about normal water temperatures are not they are way up and I do not know what the DO levels were or are so that is blank. So from my seat this is what I see. The run is late but everything has been late starting with the Summerrun Steelhead. Had some Springers going through here on the Chehalis, cannot say to numbers but in small schools, the third week of August which is late. So late, likely below forecast for Chinook everywhere, ( ocean catch indicates that is the case ) and river and bay conditions have been just terrible with water temps in the Chehalis plus or minus a bit on 70 degrees. Same is for Willapa I am told so there is zero and I mean zero reason for the fish to enter the bays. The weather has cooled down so as the conditions improve for the fish we wait and see.

Ok now this bit that Annette sent out. For my part I am glad to see that staff has been given the time to put it out to folks and it really does reduce the confusion. As to inseason things I will not touch with a 10 ft pole. Draw your own conclusions but catch is way way down both Rec & commercial.


Edited by Rivrguy (09/08/17 06:22 AM)
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#979568 - 09/08/17 07:02 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Way back in the 1950s CA successfully conducted a study on San Joaquin River Chinook using tangle nets to capture fish to attach acoustic tags. Reason for the study was to see the response of the fish to low flows, low DO, and high temperatures in the lower river-basically around Stockton. These were Fall fish.

They tracked the fish, having spread recorders through the delta. I forget. now, the final conclusions, but they had enough recoveries to get an idea of migration patterns and response to conditions. So, if the bay is warm, the rive warm, and DOs low there is some information out there as to what the fish will do.

They may have done this study over a couple of years.

The Fraser is reportedly flowing at 75% of average and warmer than average. This information has been used since at least the 80s to understand how the sockeye and pink respond and I am sure that DFO has a clue as to how it affects the other species.

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#979572 - 09/08/17 08:47 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2824
Loc: Marysville
The following link might provide some insight in how fall Chinook might react to warm water temperatures.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/counts/sockeye/chinook_chart.jpg

Current lake Washington temperatures are 73 degree; highest seen for this date yet the Chinook seem to be entering the locks at normally.

Something to keep in mind on Willapa is that those high temperatures are surface temperatures and every high tide there is a push of deeper cool water that enters the bay allowing the fish to ride into bay on that cool water. Even during those 90 degree days in late August one would see the surface water temperatures drop as much as 15 degrees on the high tide push. While the Chinook may have related to the bottom a little more than normal there seem to be expected numbers of fish given the forecasts and even some coho.

Curt

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#979575 - 09/08/17 10:03 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Smalma]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Been running 70 plus surface and 68 plus something 20 ft on bottom. I did not put this out but will as I forgot. The doughnut hole above the island is not getting anything in but you have a small number in the Naselle and Nemah with the Nemah more if you can call it that.


Edited by Rivrguy (09/08/17 10:20 AM)
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#979577 - 09/08/17 11:36 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

and some more that was on a CC.

I have a question. How many commercial boats went out and how many of those boats filed fish tickets showing fish were actually sold?

Tim


Hi Tim,

Thanks for the question. So the morning of the 5th regional staff conducted an effort count between 7:00am and 7:15am. The effort was 12 vessels. The reported landings from the quick reporting system was also 12. Let me know if you have any further questions regarding these data.

Thanks,
Chad
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#979578 - 09/08/17 12:15 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Smalma]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Chinook are entering the locks but folks I talk with fear that swimming from the locks to Lake WA will kill a bunch.

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#979596 - 09/10/17 07:23 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
A bunch of folks have asked me how the river is doing. 68 plus degrees under the boat which is normal. After that it is difficult to quantify things. Each year when we hit the warm cycle the river goes pretty much dead. No bait fish ( above 101 ) just kinda ambles on. I have never figured out if it is DO, PH, temp or just what but it happens. The recent hot spell was every bit 6 weeks long for the river so we have high temps which is normal and flows are low but normal. So what happens that keeps things sorta kinda in a holding pattern. I am clueless but the river is changing over the last few days. Seen a few Sturgeon jump and seals & birds are coming around in numbers. I think it will take a temp drop in the water to put the final part in play so whatever they don't care for is gone. It happens almost every year and this year was about normal.

On the run size. I think it will be short on numbers but time will tell. After that think of a graph of a run with numbers up the left side and weeks across the bottom and the run graphed in. Now it always ( for most but not chum ) starts up week by week then peaks & numbers drop back down. Now take and reduce the size 40%. Two things happen. One the encounters at the start of the run get pretty slim as the weeks stay the same but the front of the run is skinny so now it it really reduced. The weeks before the peak will produce much fewer fish simply because so few fish so much area in tidewater to find them in. So you get the impression of no fish, just not much. Then at the peak the numbers get to the point that it is recognizable be it reduced in numbers. One should keep in mind that WDF&W & the QIN both depend on the rain in the first of November to make escapement. River blows fish run up and dodge harvest. No rain they keep getting hammered and less get up. No rain really messes with escapement.

Then add BC & AK pulling for conservation ( Chinook ) but that is problematic. When the fish come down the pipeline ( not counting Springers ) the fish that were in the front got hammered based on the forecast and the ones at the back end of the parade not as much so that is going make things just weird stream to stream just depends on where your rivers fish were in the parade. The WDF&W expansion of 2 fish limit did nothing. If your averaging half a fish per rod then the extra fish in the bag limit is about selling license to tourist that is all.

So it is a waiting game and frankly it will be the QIN that will first see what is up. Their seasons were set to reduce Chinook impacts and Rec are C&R so once they start it will show after the first sets and I doubt anyone has a clear picture of what is about to happen. If after that set the QIN pull for conservation then it is done period. If they accept the Chinook impacts then the Rec will fit in C&R window for impacts. As Coho go I cannot say anything except no jacks so far, well maybe few is better. Remember now this thing about the water quality or whatever is being slow to tail out which just makes things much more difficult. Time will tell the story rather soon I think.


Edited by Rivrguy (09/11/17 05:33 AM)
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#979597 - 09/10/17 07:43 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4993
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Many on here know where I like to fish......Low water flows, and lot's of that "moss crap" has decreased my desire to fish jacks. Every cast, collects that "moss crap", on bait, line, weight. Even trying to fish float and eggs, the result is the same.

This is the 1st year in a loooooooong time, that I've been the only boat for days at a time......and even more amazing is the walk in fishermen, are not there......I mean its 9/10/17, normally there would be many fishermen, there and trying.

Hate to say this....cause the rains might not stop, but a 2-3 fast rise would aid in getting the "moss crap" to move along. Twitching, spinners, plugs, spoons would be VERY TOUGH to fish.....9/16/17 is fast approaching.



Edited by DrifterWA (09/10/17 07:50 AM)
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"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#979604 - 09/10/17 11:59 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: DrifterWA]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Ok was out on the river. The temp at the Muc was 66.1 at slack. Yesterday about 2 hrs on the incoming it was 68.9 so we are a changing and I had my pet seal with all morning even when I moved it just followed up so they are looking for a meal.
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#979605 - 09/10/17 03:52 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12712
Definitely on a cooling trend this weekend.
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#979643 - 09/12/17 07:24 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
So look at this bit and it was reduced today for the Olympics but the storm appears to have broadened the coastal areas that get rain. Right now it looks like a bump up in flows then back down. Time will tell but if it holds true but there is a second part. If the rain comes down in say a 12 hour window it will run off much faster as the ground is hard along with dry so it soaks in very slowly. Sounds strange but building roads you can have this rain and come in on a fresh grade & trim about a inch off and dry and good to run on. So it is about not only how much rain but how many hours we get the rain in. Just put your cursor on the circle which is a flow gauge and you will get the graph to pop up. I think Doc got it right on.


https://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/rfc/


Edited by Rivrguy (09/12/17 07:25 AM)
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#979644 - 09/12/17 07:58 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Intensity has a lot to do with it. We need that old slow, misty, drizzle for weeks on end to fill the streams and the aquifers. Short storms just tend to run off. Then, we pave over and make it run off faster.

One other bump to flows is actually Falll. As the deciduous trees and shrubs drop leaves they stop transpiring water. So, in the Fall, flows will diminish slower, or even may increase slightly, as the trees shut down.

May have had more of an impact back when we had deciduous trees out there instead of fir/hemlock monoculture...

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#979647 - 09/12/17 09:16 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

My dream is 1.5 inches in 1 hour!
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#979648 - 09/12/17 09:17 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Kinda short......................

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#979656 - 09/12/17 12:56 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

My brother just told me that encounters of Recs on NOR was about 25% of those landed / released and some good fish arrived at the Naselle hatchery and same %. Now it is much lower in the donut hole with commercials so a dust up is underway. Could be a lot of reasons but but the only way to check is see what portion of the encounters were on the boats with observers. Say if 80% report encounters with NOR's were on boats with observers we have a problem I think I think.
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#979660 - 09/12/17 01:55 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3242
Rain forecast looks pretty good, the closer you get to the coast. I guess that won't do much to spike overall streamflow around the basin, but it should cool down the tidal transition areas a few degrees, which should get fish moving... we hope.

I was off work last week, and I took a few quick trips down to what I believe are DrifterWA's usual haunts to see what was happening, and my impressions match what he said. Warm water, goo all over the river bottom, and (the kicker) VERY few signs of salmon, adult or otherwise. No bank anglers tells the story well; most years, there are a handful of guys down there working a traveling lane for jacks (and the occasional adult), but I've only seen one or two people venture out there, which tells me there's not been much reason to do so.

I also checked out a couple coastal rivers yesterday, and there didn't appear to be any fish around. I think that's about to change. Let's hope so.

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