Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 175 of 204 < 1 2 ... 173 174 175 176 177 ... 203 204 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#1061724 - 04/01/23 10:09 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET *** [Re: fish4brains]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The manner in which adult spawners are counted changed when the QIN got the escapement goal reduced and WDFW did not oppose the reduced escapement goal. So it is the number of Chinook spawning in the gravel regardless of origin. Even counting the broodstocked returns ( clipped ) we do not make escapement under current modeled harvest. So the QIN will have to adjust their harvest or not. Still up in the air and staff said should be ironed out next week.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1061725 - 04/01/23 10:27 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If we go back to Hoh v. Baldridge the NI fishery (ocean?) would have to be closed before QIN would be subject to what used to be called a conservation closure. If there are any harvestable fish entering US waters they need to be split 50:50 between state and Tribes. That would mean that a tribal ocean troll fishery could cork the QINs. If there are no "harvestable" entering US waters and the NI takes some then the practice has been to let the tribes take as many (balance allocations) and let the escapement take it in the shorts.

Top
#1061726 - 04/01/23 02:25 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The "fish until catches are balanced" was popular with the tribes because it guaranteed a fishery regardless of run size, until it was a severe conservation concern which was, as I recall, never really defined. So, they will support the ocean harvest to guarantee the inside.

Top
#1061728 - 04/09/23 12:34 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

I thought this opinion by Mr. Johnstone was a interesting read and it gives one a glimpse of QIN thinking.


BEING FRANK

Hatchery salmon hold the ecosystem together

Ed Johnstone

Chairman Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission

Salmon are a keystone species in the Pacific Northwest — a central part of the food chain and our way of life.

Throughout the region, salmon runs are imperiled by the cumulative effects of habitat degradation and a changing climate. Tribal and state co-managers are working tirelessly to keep them from going extinct, and that depends heavily on our extensive hatchery system.

In 2022, tribes released more than 39 million salmon from 24 hatcheries, 15 rearing ponds, five marine net pens and two remote site incubation facilities.

These fish provide harvest opportunities for everyone in the region. Without them, none of us would be able to fish. Hatchery fish are treaty fish. For tribes, losing the ability to harvest salmon not only deprives us of our traditional way of life, it also is a violation of the rights we reserved in treaties with the U.S. government in the 1850s.

In spite of this, hatcheries continue to be targeted by frivolous lawsuits that threaten salmon recovery and the health of the entire ecosystem. The groups behind these lawsuits misrepresent the risks of hatcheries in scientific literature while ignoring the ecological benefits. Divisive legal strategies squander our collective strengths at a time of unprecedented urgency for our region’s salmon. We should be working together to attack the causes of habitat loss and salmon predation, not one another.

We shouldn’t have to rely on hatcheries. We would rather have a properly functioning ecosystem that supports natural salmon production. But with uncertain ocean conditions and warming temperatures, we need hatcheries more than ever. They mitigate for lost spawning habitat and help preserve and recover populations listed under the Endangered Species Act.

There’s a significant misunderstanding that if we take the hatcheries away there would be a miraculous recovery of wild salmon, but this couldn’t be further from the truth. If the lawsuits were successful in shutting down our state’s hatcheries — removing this keystone species from the ecosystem — the effects would be catastrophic.

Salmon contribute to more than human sustenance and ways of life. They nourish species as small as plankton and as large as orcas. Dwindling salmon runs are thought to contribute to the poor health of southern resident orcas and a statewide task force recommended increasing salmon hatchery production significantly to help feed the struggling killer whales.

The nutrients that adult salmon bring back from the ocean contribute to the life of the entire ecosystem in the watershed where they return. When salmon carcasses decay after spawning, insects, terrestrial birds and

Got opinions?

We want to print them. Send your letters or possible guest columns for consideration to: Editor, The Daily World, P.O. Box 269, Aberdeen 98520; or email them to letters@thedailyworld.com.

other mammals feed on them. Salmon recovery plans often include the distribution of carcasses from hatcheries into the watershed to help recover invertebrate populations essential for the health and survival of juvenile salmon. Even trees benefit. Numerous studies have shown increased growth in trees near rivers where salmon have died.

The tribes and our state co-manager operate hatcheries based on the latest, best available science to make sure the programs do not interfere with salmon recovery. Hatchery facilities have as minimal of an impact on the environment as possible because of how carefully they are monitored. Several Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission member tribes have their own water quality standards regulating discharge. Overall, the discharge released from the facilities where fish are raised is well below what is released from other operations with discharges, like wastewater treatment plants.

Right now, the majority of chinook salmon that return to our region come from hatcheries. Orcas and the multitude of other species that rely on salmon as part of their diet do not distinguish between hatchery and natural-origin fish.

If we didn’t have hatcheries, not only would tribes lose their treaty-protected rights to harvest salmon, but the ecosystem would suffer as well. We must acknowledge and protect the ecological benefits of hatchery programs as we continue salmon recovery efforts and stand against any legal threats to curtail them.

Ed Johnstone is the chairman of the Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission and a member of the Quinault Indian Nation.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1061729 - 04/09/23 12:43 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To my mind there are at least two reasonably separate threads here.

We know the problems that hatcheries cause. Certainly genetic issues. Certainly mixed stock fisheries issues. From those aspects, they are not good for wild fish.

We also know that without hatcheries we wouldn't have anywhere near the fisheries we have now, whether it is salmon or trout. If we are going to fish at anywhere near the level of harvest we seem to demand we will need hatcheries, even if we recover the ecosystems. There is simply too much demand.

We also need to look at the entire ecosystem and food web; which we aren't.

Top
#1061732 - 04/10/23 08:06 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13396
Ed's point of view is anything but holistic. I think his article is grabbing at every point of interest that supports the Tribe's continued harvest, which is priority number 1. It's true that hatchery salmon contribute to the ecosystem, but wild salmon contribute better by dispersing in watersheds far more than any hatchery run does. As for nourishing orcas, the Puget Sound hatchery Chinook salmon have become so small in body size, and so narrow in their timing window, that their overall contribution to orca, or specifically the Southern Resident Killer Whales, recovery is negligible, unfortunately. Managing for abundant hatchery salmon has been just as much a killer of wild salmon as loss of habitat has been. Hatchery salmon are not holding the ecosystem together. Hatchery salmon are supporting the harvest of salmon more than anything else. And that's not a bad thing when we clearly want harvestable salmon. We ought to at least be honest about our wants and intentions.

Top
#1061734 - 04/10/23 10:00 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 384
Agree 100% , Salmo. I was thinking the same thing when I read Johnstone's thoughts. He was just worried about having enough salmon for the tribes to harvest. We know they don't distinguish the difference between hatchery and wild fish. A fish is a fish to them.

Top
#1061735 - 04/10/23 01:00 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I am reminded of a Lummi official who was asked about the really small population of wild coho in the Nooksack, as there was a huge hatchery program. "Wild fish are nice but the people gotta eat." 'Bout sums it up.

Top
#1061736 - 04/11/23 08:20 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Just got this around 3:30 and is about all I know.

To Grays Harbor salmon fishery interests:

A friendly reminder of the combined Grays Harbor and Willapa Bay salmon fisheries discussion will be held tomorrow Wednesday April 12th from 6 pm to 8 pm via ZOOM. If you have not registered for the meeting, click the “Zoom webinar” link: Join Zoom webinar

The attached excel file is the planning model that was used to develop the proposed 2023 Grays Harbor salmon fishery package and the attached Word file includes the tables from the “2023 Summary Table” tab in the attached planning model.

Hope you can attend tomorrow’s meeting,


Kim Figlar-Barnes
Fish Biologist - Grays Harbor
WDFW Fish Program – Region 6
48 Devonshire Rd
Montesano WA, 98563
360-249-4628 ex 235
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1061737 - 04/12/23 06:17 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
My email was busy last night after the 3:30 PM yesterday release of the NOF GH meeting tonight information so this.

Yes the model shows combined NT & QIN nets in for 5 days in weeks 42 and 43.

Yes the model shows this results in 1497 below the Chehalis Chinook escapement goal.

Yes the model shows an 1.1 NT Comm harvest rate and yes the GH Policy and the model shows .08 is the required NT Comm impacts.

And finally yes it appears staff have chosen to ignore policy guidelines. Why I do not know but with the changes in Olympia with the departure of Mr. Warren and Mr. Lossee's arrival in Region 6 it appears the GH Policy is now just window dressing.

Last but not least the QIN will net 5 days a week starting 11/5 ( wk 45 ) through wk 53. You upper basin folks are screwed and that is about the best face I can put on it.

Yup it looks like old fashion 1970's management which nearly destroyed the Coho in the 80's.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1061738 - 04/12/23 06:43 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 233
Loc: Mason County
Sheesh, five days a week? How many hours are nets typically set on their open days?

Huge impact on those late season hogs.

Top
#1061739 - 04/12/23 07:07 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: seabeckraised]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
QIN always start at noon Sunday and pull at noon on whatever day they pull. NT fish normally 12 hour days or daylight hours. WDFW sometimes shortens it a bit and will piggy back half a day behind the QIN pull.

Upper basin folks this schedule DOES NOT include the Chehalis tribal fisheries who are a non treaty and are part of the states share. So it is likely you will see lower basin nets 5 days and in the mix netting by the Chehalis tribal on the same days or even not resulting the possibility of nets 6 to 7 days a week with the combined lower and Chehalis tribal fisheries at Oakville.

And yes the fisheries modeled in prior NOF GH had the NT Comm at the required.

FROM GH POLICY:

a) WDFW-managed commercial fisheries in the Grays Harbor Basin shall have the following impact limits:

Areas 2A, 2B, 2D: the impact rate of the state-managed commercial fishery shall be 0.8% on natural-origin Chehalis fall Chinook when the impact of the recreational fishery is equal to or greater than 4.2%. The impact rate of the WDFW-managed commercial fishery may be less than 0.8% when conservation concerns for natural-origin Chehalis fall Chinook result in a less than 4.2% impact rate in the recreational fishery.

When the terminal run of natural-origin Chehalis fall Chinook reaches an abundance of 18,793, the impact rate of the WDFW- managed commercial fishery shall linearly increase from 0.8% to a maximum of 5.8% at a terminal run of 25,000 natural-origin Chehalis fall Chinook.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1061740 - 04/12/23 08:40 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Gee this is fun....not! Ok to understand thee numbers you need the model just sent out NOT the previous ones. The Summary tab provides the totality of all projected fisheries. A box that is RED means failure to comply with the GH Policy or make escapement and it shows all three salmon species.

The New NT Schedule will show you the days the NT Comm fish by week and that information is on the left side of the spread sheet. The Rec season by Tribs and areas of the Chehalis are listed and scrolling down below the Rec season you find the NT Comm.

The QIN seasons by starting day of the week are in the Treaty Schedule tab. The season is listed by week and QIN always put in on Sunday at noon.

The Total Exploitation tab will show the harvest in the ocean AK & BC and others.

So to get it all down write down the week or weeks ( 40 / 41 ect. ) then put the QIN down by week then do the same for NT Comm and by week add the QIN &NT Comm then by week add the numbers for the week. Do that and you will see that weeks 42 and 43 are combined QIN NT Comm 5 days a week. Week 44 3 days NT Comm then QIN 5 days a week through week 45 through week 53.

That is about as simple as I can explain it.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1061741 - 04/12/23 11:09 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
At some point folks might wonder the value of working with WDFW to create plans and policies to move forward with.

Top
#1061742 - 04/12/23 10:29 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13396
Somewhere along the line I misplaced my copy of "Field Guide to Monkeywrenching." I'm pretty sure it would recommend dumping chlorine into the water supplies of the hatchery Chinook programs. As long as there is the slightest possibility of a harvestable Chinook returning to Grays Harbor, WDFW and QIN will schedule enough fishing to ensure that wild Chinook continue to fail to meet escapement goals. Seriously friends, what's the point in continuing the hatchery Chinook program? It only serves to justify over-fishing.

Top
#1061743 - 04/13/23 07:04 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Salmo g.]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Well it is a done deal you will see nets 5 days a week and inland above Oakville likely 7 days a week. Simply put staff said that the QIN “aggressive schedule” did not leave any netting time for the NT Commercials. In fact they made a big deal several times that the NT nets got two days less than last year. Frankly I kind of bit my tongue as I and most people could care less about the race or ethnicity of a commercial fisher be it tribal or NT a gillnet is a gillnet. Simply put the two comanagers do not like each other and WDFW has never got over having to deal with the tribe.

From what I witnessed the so-called ZOOM meeting was a world class load of BS! Couple folks atta boys for staff, one objection about the exploitation rate and myself. How many people I have no idea and no model put up to see and understand. Also staff put forth that they were officially counting all Chinook spawning in the gravel in the wild escapement regardless of origin. The meeting will be put up on the agency’s web site so you can listen to it yourself.

What I will say is several staff changes have been out and about for a while. First the present Director came to WDFW, then MR. Warren retired, several jobs in harvest managers division Olympia changed hands in Olympia and Mr. Lossee arrived in Region 6. Wella GH Policy thrown under the bus to chase the abundant Coho. To understand how WDFW and the QIN are managing think no GH Policy and 1978. GH Policy has been tossed; conservation is not a thought unless you fish inriver then staff has concerns but no concerns when you allow nets 5 days a week.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1061744 - 04/13/23 07:38 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It seems that WDFW and QIN have no intention of changing until a listing occurs, or maybe multiple listings. As to Salmo's idea I did work on killing a whole hatchery due to VHSV. After chlorinating the whole building the chlorine was dumped into the outfall. I was down at the trap where we were dechlorinating the water before it went to the sound. The whole concrete trap area just exploded with fish; it was a great way to get rid of the Chinook. Sounds like a great idea.

Top
#1061745 - 04/13/23 07:45 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Salmo g.]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Salmo the manner Chinook are counted came about when the QIN petitioned to have the escapement goal for Chehalis Chinook lowered. It was approved by the Fed managers and WDFW did not manage the Chinook that way or a better way to say it they counted fish two different ways. Sorta put the hurt on the NT side so when the crunch came this year and they needed impacts for the commercials wella change to the QIN counting method.

One more thing I could see your thoughts on the marked broodstock prodigy except for one itty bitty thing, AK & BC are modeled to take 12091 Chehalis Chinook leaving only 10828 crossing the bar. Conservation my ass! All WDFW does terminally is use the low Chinook numbers to limit Rec fisheries particularly inriver. I understand your frustration but the failure to make escapement resides in the marine harvest not terminal.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1061746 - 04/13/23 07:50 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13396
So it wasn't just the third glass of wine that inspired my post last night. I swear, fish conservation won't come to GH until there isn't a single harvestable hatchery fish left. And I'm not even opposed to hatcheries, just opposed to hatcheries that are used to justify killing off wild salmon populations. Oh, and hatcheries that benefit AK and BC but not WA recreational anglers.

Top
#1061747 - 04/13/23 11:50 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It's getting so the only hatcheries that benefit WA rec anglers are the trout and warm water operations. Anadromous are (apparently) designed to benefit others. Move on to that fourth glass of wine. In vino veritas.

Top
Page 175 of 204 < 1 2 ... 173 174 175 176 177 ... 203 204 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
Fish Chaser, gordy schultz, NANOOK, oldziel, TonTo
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
1 registered (1 invisible), 777 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 27837
Dan S. 16958
Sol Duc 15727
The Moderator 13941
Salmo g. 13396
eyeFISH 12606
STRIKE ZONE 11969
Dogfish 10878
ParaLeaks 10363
Jerry Garcia 9013
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63789 Topics
645479 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |