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#1062079 - 06/24/23 07:28 AM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Rivrguy]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1356
Something to keep in mind is, Killer Whales are not going extinct. Transients are all over. A very small sub group, the SRKW, are having problems. Who's to say if they disappeared, or there numbers dropped signifcantly lower, another group would fill the nitch in the future? Or, some transients would come in and suppliment the pod? We don't really know. They are not stupid animals and nature can work mysteriously.
As far as mixed stock fisheries go, SG said it right. "isn't it well beyond time that mixed stock ocean salmon fisheries are phased out to make a significant contribution to salmon and orca conservation goals?" I think that rock has started to roll and the trollers know it. This won't be the last lawsuit. May not happen in my lifetime, but hammering mixed stock fisheries days are numbered. Either by the courts, or by dwindling stocks to catch.


Edited by RUNnGUN (06/24/23 07:39 AM)
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1062080 - 06/24/23 07:43 AM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
By that line of reasoning we don't need to to worry about steelhead because we know resident rainbows will go to sea. Killer Whales have segregated themselves into populations (which some consider fully separate species) that are feeding specialists. The Transients (mammal eaters) don't switch over. Why would they as there are plenty of marine mammals. I am unaware of any generalist KW and also unaware of any that switch from one food source to another. Maybe they will but probably they won't.

The argument of "something else will full the niche" is a good argument for tossing ESA. Who cares what we lose; something else will evolve and move in.

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#1062081 - 06/24/23 08:54 AM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Rivrguy]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1356
My point was creatures go extinct if they can't adapt. It's happened since the dawn of time. Whether it's a natural or man made disaster, or an environmental change. I've given up on worrying because what happens happens. In my mind PS steelhead don't exist. Why? Because I can't catch them anymore. It doesn't matter to me if there is 10 or 10,000 steelhead in the Green, If you can't fish for them, what does it matter? I'm not advocating species demise, but I do know there are limits how far to go to save something. Humankind is at the top and generally everything else suffers. So called "experts" think they know evrything about the whales, I beg to differ.


Edited by RUNnGUN (06/24/23 08:55 AM)
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1062082 - 06/24/23 09:23 AM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: RUNnGUN]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The thing with whales and the approach to save them differers depending on where it is. This is about the East coast but it captures the flavor of the moment.



A new rule floated by the Biden administration limiting the speed of boats longer than 35 feet to 11 miles per hour is causing substantial backlash among small boating businesses.

The proposal aims to protect the endangered right whale by reducing "the likelihood of lethal collisions" between boats and the species, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

"Endangered North Atlantic right whales are at heightened risk for vessel strikes because they spend a lot of time at or close to the water surface," the agency wrote. "Vessel strikes are a primary threat to the species."

They can also "be very difficult to spot from a boat due to their dark color and lack of a dorsal fin," it continued. "Poor weather and sea state or low light conditions can make spotting these whales nearly impossible."

Currently, the speed restriction by NOAA applies only to boats over 65 feet. The new rule would expand that and double the total protected area in the North Atlantic.

"This is a beach-town Armageddon," Freddy Gamboa, the operator of a charter boat company in Point Pleasant, New Jersey, told Fox News this week. "No one is going to want to get on this boat" if it can go only up to 10 knots.

Meanwhile, critics like Rep. Buddy Carter, R-Ga., have pointed out that there have been only five whale strikes from boats under 65 feet in the past 15 years.

He and Rep. Mary Peltola, D-Alaska, teamed up Friday to introduce legislation that would defund the rule before it is implemented, according to Fox.

"We care about the right whales," Carter said. "But we can't destroy our economy because of some rules and regulations that have been implemented by unelected bureaucrats."
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1062083 - 06/24/23 09:48 AM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Rivrguy]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1515
Loc: Tacoma
I remember talking to someone about the growth management laws and the way they were written. If one looks at the past growth pattern, there is, to a certain degree, natural progression. So, looking at it in the late eighties, growth was occurring in a pattern that followed, for the most part, these attributes. 1. Demand. 2. Developed facilities (cost to much to bring them in or develop them). 3. Areas where it is easiest to develop and there is a lack of environmental constraints. When the plan came it, it just drew lines around areas and zoned them for certain uses, and then based the future growth patterns of what was possible, not what was feasible. When I pointed out that many of these areas were skipped over or undeveloped because of any one of the previous reasons, I was told that demand would over ride those factors. The cost or economics of developing something was not considered. And for them, there is no reason to consider that. They do not have to deal with it. So often government lives in a bubble, only viewing their portion or goal. What ever is needed to get to that goal is proposed. If no one pushes back, then that is what is implemented. Regardless of the cost or consequences.


Edited by Krijack (06/24/23 09:49 AM)

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#1062084 - 06/24/23 10:02 AM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Krijack]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Quote:
Meanwhile, critics like Rep. Buddy Carter, R-Ga., have pointed out that there have been only five whale strikes from boats under 65 feet in the past 15 years.


One every three years seems to points to Rec boats not a major player in whales deaths. It is more about cargo ships but....

https://www.nationalfisherman.com/gulf-s...ht-whale-strike

Now just so everyone knows it is a west coast issue also.

https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/ships-whale-strikes-solution/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Bad+Comp...nt=gws-wiz-serp
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1062085 - 06/24/23 01:19 PM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
On the other hand, one every three years may be the straw that broke the whale's back. Especially an animal with such a low reproductive rate. If they breed once every three years......

The idea that creatures go extinct if they can't adapt puts ALL the pressure on the animal or plant. "I want to drive my boat at 30 mph. If the whales can't adapt to that, so be it." Why can't the boat driver adapt to a lower speed? Seems to me to be awfully arrogant to believe that the world must adjust to whatever you want to do.

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#1062086 - 06/24/23 01:27 PM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The vast majority of strikes are ships cargo, container, and oil tankers. Sport yachts are a very tiny portion of the problem and commercial fishing gear goes way to the front of the line. The information is out there does not take much of a search to find it.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1062087 - 06/24/23 03:42 PM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Not arguing RG, just that if they are in so much touble that every mortality hurts we need to quit killing them. Certainly one must reign in the big ships. To not do so is like expanding the "no go" areas for SRKWs and doing nothing about starvation.

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#1062088 - 06/24/23 05:55 PM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
I call that feel good environmentalism. Parade crap around that sounds good but seldom if ever gets to the root cause of the issue.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1062089 - 06/24/23 09:14 PM Re: Court Drops The Hammer on Marine Chinook Harvest [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Yep. Pick the low hanging fruit. Or more specifically the fruit that won't bite back. Which is why sporties get **cked over.

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