Curious how many spring chinook are produced at Minter? WDFW page only lists trout/kokanee and steelhead smolt plants. Is there a real effort to increase spring chinook production there? If return numbers are consistant with plants, why not increase production? Maybe hatchery space or other factors are constraints? They should be operating at maximum capacity if they truely want to provide a fishery for them. Otherwise Minter just provides a genetic safety population for White River, and potentially limits rec opportunities.

This may help you regarding your spring chinook question.
Page 666.
SF

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/02391/wdfw02391.pdf

~ 500K White River spring Chinook (segregated) are released at Minter Creek (from Hupp Springs hatchery). All are tagged, but none are marked with an adipose clip, so they are not intended for selective harvest.

Lifter99 also commented that Puyallup tribal personnel told him that there were ~ 8000 - 9000 White River springs returning to the river. The forecast for returns to the White River this year is about 4900 total spring Chinook with about 2800 of those being naturally produced.

Ooo. Not a good pg number. Thanks for the link. I was curious why not plant more? Looks like it's a struggle to get over a million egg take, so understandably tough to increase production without that source. Maybe get some surplus, if any exists, from the WR hatchery? Hopefull they are culturing all the eggs they obtain from adults.

Oncy,
The 8000-9000 fish I mentioned was for one particular year. Maybe that was an exceptional year. I don't know. I don't know what an average yearly number for White River springers is. That is Puyallup tribal data.

Also,I did not talk to a Puyallup tribal person regarding the 8000-9000 numbers. A friend of mine who is a sport fishery advisor had talked to a Puyallup tribal person whi gave him the numbers for one particular year. The numbers returning to Minter never seem to go over 2000 fish. A guy I know who used to work at MInter told me a long time ago that the Minter springers average around 8-13 lbs with a rare 20 lb fish.

2017 there was a huge run but most of the run was jacks. By the graph, it looks the adult escapement that year was about 6k.

https://fortress.wa.gov/dfw/score/score/species/population_details.jsp?stockId=1184

Per the Muckleshoot’s website regard spring chinook harvest in 2022.
SF


This year’s White River/Puyallup River ceremonial and subsistence (C&S) spring chinook net fishery started on May 20th.The Tribe fished five (5) consecutive extended weekends up to June 20th.
Unfortunately, the fishery was cut short as a conservation measure in response to in-season injuries and mortalities of spring chinook at the new Fish Passage Facility (FPF). During those five weeks’ Tribal fishers harvested 142 chinook in the net fishery which was less than expected. The Tribe also conducted a hook and line during which tribal fishers caught 6 adults and 4 jacks.

Interesting Darth,

Do you suppose the increased production of chinook for orca food would yield a similar spike in jacks?

Jacks are some (fractional) part of salmon runs at least for Chinook, coho, and sockeye. I have seen one Pink jack but never a chum. Anyway, if there are more Chinook out there we should see more jacks.

It would be interesting to read a short status report on recovery of White River Springers to include the one or more past and present constraining recovery numbers.

I have heard that the stock's original recovery goal was achieved years ago and returns have been maintained through both tribal and State hatchery programs.; a good thing.

Another tidbit, unsubstantiated, is that NOAA is funding the Minter Creek operation to mitigate risk to the stock tied to having only a White River operation. That seems reasonable if accurate; another good thing -up to a point.

So the question remains that if the recovery program's goal has been achieved why are hatchery fish not being fin clipped and why are we not able to have a recreational fishery on them?

Is it biological or is it political?

I remember when they first put fish above Mud Mountain. Best available science said there was X area for spawning so that amount of fish was passed up Well and good. They spawned. Just not where they were expected. While I was around folks weren't all too sure where they went.

They were passing quite a few above Mud Mountain. It seems recovery should be tied to their success and not the two hatcheries.

Further, the White was a Green Over/Duwamish trib in the 19th Century. It kept switching watersheds. Anyway, they should work at putting springers into the Green River Canyon; use Icy Creek as a rearing pond.

The best way would be to do a ventrical or other clip, so that if large returns are expected they can open up the terminal areas. It would also help with identification in the early area 11 catch rate, in which wild impacts are a large concern.

Carcassman,

Years ago I caught a king just above Icy creek fishing for summer runs. I believe it was probably mid July or earlier. There were what looked like several fish that kept rolling in a deep hole, but I could not get bit. Switched to a small, glow in the dark buzz bomb at dusk and back bounced it through the hole. He took it on the first cast. I am fairly sure it was a springer, but it is impossible to say for sure. It was mint bright and very fresh, if that makes a difference.

Might have been. But quite a while ago, around 1980, WDF planted Skykomish Summers out of Icy. They came back in really good numbers and really buggered the update. This would have been July in Elliott. Some may have survived and established. Also know that there were Springers (a few) in the Cedar in the late 70s.

Larry B, you can see a short status report on this population in the latest Co-Managers PS Chinook harvest management plan. The stock history can be found in the management unit profiles in Appendix A of the plan. While it lacks some details that I remember it gives a decent summary. I believe the original "recovery goal" that you refer to has nothing to do with the current recovery goal/ESA delisting goal established for this population, but is only based on an MOU between WDFW and south Puget Sound tribes that was put together in the late 1980's. By my recollection (sometimes marginal), that original recovery goal only referenced escapement of NOR's and fish from acclimation ponds on the White River in the goal. It did not require meeting any kind of standard for productivity or spatial structure that would help to ensure the viability of the population. It also required some level of normal fisheries for both of the co-managers in front of this escapement for the "recovery goal" to be met. I would guess that those fishery goals (although I am doubtful if those were ever really defined) have never been achieved even if the escapement goals have. So, whether or not this previous recovery goal might have been attained, I don't think it has any bearing on what is happening currently.

Another consideration regarding the marking and harvest of the White River hatchery fish is their status under the ESA. By my recollection (sketchy as the years pass), the hatchery component of this population was deemed to be "essential for recovery," just like any naturally spawning fish from the White River. That fact alone would seem to complicate a directed harvest on them.

We caught quite a few Green River Springers. For two + seasons we had good returns and caught them both in the lower river below Flaming Geyser through Soos , as well as in the canyon all the way up to the RR below Howard Hanson. As I recall, It was good enough to allow a fishing while floating change to the summer fishing regs.

They were quite aggressive and eager to hit a variety of gear from eggs and floats in the deep pools of the canyon to plugs, drift gear, and a few takers on flys from icy creek down through the Argus Ranch area.

How did you distinguish Springs from Summers? I was unaware of stocking any Springs.

Pretty easy to tell. Especially when you’ve fished the river for fifty years, and you know the timing, looks, and differences from the Green wild fall fish that used to be.

Also, we knew when the plants were due, so no surprises...

Ok. But WDF also released Skykomish Summers from Icy, and they are rather different in timing aspects from Green River Falls.