I read post after post regarding Tribal netting and they all seem to contain the same rhetoric and bashing. Opinions from one extreme to the other fly all over the place. The truths that can't be ignored or disputed are the facts that the Tribes can legally net, and our fish are slowly going away. I know that there are several Native Americans that post here and my question is directed at you. I ask that you give full disclosure when responding to this question....Why do your Tribes continue to net a diminishing stock of wild Steelhead, is it for religous reasons or money!!!!!! Let's allow The Native Americans to tell us their side of the story. NO BASHING ALLOWED!!!!

[This message has been edited by GreenSauks (edited 02-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by GreenSauks (edited 02-05-2001).]

Boy, this is gonna be like walking down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood!

Although I don't gillnet or am I the tribal spokesperson. I'll put my .02 cents in. I think it goes beyond just deciding to put the net in in March because there's nothing else to do.

It goes to the pre-season agreements between the state and each tribe on harvestable fish. Boiling down to number of days allowed to reach this number.

The state and the tribes work out an agreement on what amount of days it will take to harvest an estimated number of fish. During this day calculation, it is expected that some days are not going to be fishable because of freshets. Now, what about a low precip. year such as this year. The nets are in the rivers fishing more than was expected. Are the tribes required to fish until they catch their quota of steelhead? Or do they stick to the day allotment even though they are catching more then the 50% of estimated harvestable catch, and enjoy the good year of fishing? Who monitors this,and is the netting schedule changed mid season(like closures in sport fishing) or do the tribes stick to what they agreed to with the state, before the season started? Does anyone know how this works?

Why is it that when I go to the Sportsman Show, I notice the two OP caught, 30+ lb. skin mount nates on the wall - both less then three years old?

Not to take sides on the issue, but why do Washington Sportsmen continue to harvest native steelhead when we all know runs are declining? Because it's legal to do so?

Why is there a commercial fishery off of our waters when we know how lethal that fishery is to our native stocks of fish? Because it's legal to do so?

Maybe it's about time we start changing our laws and start protecting our fish.

Just my $.02.

Parker

for the few who do fish that late in the year they are mostly targeting sockeye in the quinault. last year we shut the quinault down to any netting for sockeye or any other fish to allow for better escapement. if you have a fish stock that is going down hill you should not fish either hook or line or net for that species. alot of us quinault guides are in the same boat as you guy's ,trying to get them to shorten their fishing time, i like to give my fishermen the best chance to catch the fish of a lifetime. it's hard to explain to the netters that you can make $300 a day for a few fish and hardly anything for a fish caught in a net.

I would like to know why it is legal for the Tribes to net Kings on the Humptulips. That fishery is closed to the Sportsmen. While the Hump has a healthy run of hatchery kings it has an endangered run of Wild kings that run at the same time. The nets don't know the difference between Hatchery Kings and Wild Kings. How is it that they continue to net? There is no sportsman catch so there must not be any harvestable fish. Do the tirbes really care about that resource, or do they simply do it because it is legal? If the answer is that they do it because it is legal and the want to make money, then they better realize that they are just as wrong as the Buffalo Hunters of the late 1800's.

Keep in mind that the majority of Sportfishermen are moving towards C&R of wild fish. The guide who had 2 30lb OP Nates mounted in their booth at the Sportsman show is an idiot and should flogged. Guides are supposed to be professionals and should educate their clients in propper handeling of fish and the need for C&R.

I believe the situation on the Hump was to catch the hatchery coho and as few of the chinook as possible. The fishery was carefully monitered and very limited. I'm not trying to start a debate on fishing the Hump last year just trying to provide some insight.

Hey Blueback,

With the control the tribe has over the Q, just think how many fish would be in the river after a few years of no nets. Every single tribal member could be a guide and would be booked solid since the river would, by all accounts, be far superior to any other river in the area.

Imagine what the cash flow would be amongst the members that guide. You guys would become the example that others would try to copy.

it's hard to get people to change their ways, you guys know that.

Potter

I thought you might use the Coho excuse. The fact of the matter is that all of those runs take place at the same time and nets are indescrimenant killers. I would be a lot less negative about Tribal fishing if they fished in a manner that was trueley selective and showed some respect for the resource.

Thanks for you're insite Blueback

Here goes the whole truth & nothing but the truth.I only speak for the muckleshoots&the green duwamish system.The tribal bios.meet with the state&look at spawner numbers from the 3 to4 years prior along with the flooding that may have occurred.From that they get the conservative run size(our policy is if were gonna err we err on the side of the resource)this year that number was 596 fish split that 298 for state 298 for tribe.In the pre-season agreement there is a drop dead date after which no netting will take place usually feb.15th.Although it could be earlier.To answer your ? about why only the fisherman can answer you i guess.I fish for salmon but not the ironheads.And yes i fish to make money.Kore to answer your? about monitoring we along with state bios sample everyday of the season.I would say we get at least 95% of the total catch for the season.If there are,nt very many fish the fishery closes itself because nobody goes fishing.Any more questions just ask.I wish it was,nt so long i can,t type for s***!!!

Nativepride, thank you for your response and honesty! I understand how the calculations for returning fish are done, however, it reallys boils down to the state's best guess and I don't think any of us have much confidence in the accuracy. Just wondering.... How much are those 298 fish worth to you in terms of $$$.

GS

Nativepride,

Do the the Muckleshoots have any plans of going back to the old ways - weirs, wheels, etc? I support sharing the catch but find it absolutely gut wrenching to see all the nets strung across the Duwammish. Going back to the old ways would create the opportunity to hand pick which fish are killed and which are allowed to go up stream. Maybe that way the biggest spawners could be selected instead of the other way around. Would it mean more to you to fish how your ancestors did? I'm interested in your thoughts.

The real truth here is, The one's that have made it through the open sea's netting and the Native American netting are ESCAPEMENT if we the Sportsman with emphysis on Sportsman release all the Nate's then we have done our part for the Future, If we kill them then we are no better then the one's we all seem to want to point fingers at, Let's do all we can now And work on a resove for the rest. Let's just think about our sports brothern on the Nooch yesterday that had two Nate Buck's bonked in his boat(black and green stripe Willie, With the Simply the Best logo on it), He had the gall to tell me I was stupid and should read the Regs, He was legal. I might be Stupid but I know where the region 6 office is and did my part for future education....

( Say no to Native netting, And the retention of wild Steelhead by all Parties)

Hey sauks sorry i took so long been kinda busy.I have extreme confidence in the calculations on the green river because we have an excellent relationship with the guy from the state we work with and the fish and redds are counted twice a week i believe.So we are,nt just guessing what spawned or made it back to the river.As far as dollars for those fish.I personally didnt fish for them but the two guys that did made about $6000 grand iguess maybe more.Oh yeah it was,nt 298 because we kept out 50 for us tribal sporties.Spinnin fool i really dont want to get into that debate.I mean you guys did,nt fish with graphite rods, mono line,driftboats,or jet sleds did you.It,s just an argument that wont accomplish anything.Green sauks asked a couple ? and i answered them thats all.If you have any more i,ll try my best.

NativePride.....Thank you very much for your honesty Sir! This is exactly the type of dialoge we need if we are ever going to improve the current state of affairs.

I have a special place in my heart for the Green as I have been fishing it for Steelhead and Salmon since I was 11 years old. I will be 40 in October, that's over 28 years of personal perspective that I have regarding this river. I would like to continue our sharing of information, I find it very positive.

Here's my email address bburl62647@aol.com, I look forward to sharing ideas with you!

Bill

Nativepride,
Always enjoyed your post on this board keep up the ensightful posts.
I have a question for you being that you are a Native American fisherman. I would like an honest and insightful answer if possible because I think I'm treading in a new area or idea. So here it is.

If there was funding for the building of modern fish traps for the tribes and if there was an established market for the 50% of hatchery fish you are allowed at more than $3.00 a pound as long as all native fish were released from the traps to make their journey up river to spawn. Would you as a fisherman be interested?
Looking forward to any responses.
Steve Wrye.

When all of us sport fishing steelheaders release each and EVERY SINGLE Steelhead we catch then I think we can make a case to the tribes. But since a lot of sports fishing people are still taking home wild (native) Steelhead, then I think we have nothing to complain about. And just think about that in numbers, like an extra 100 fish spawning in the Hoh? I don't know the exact number but it makes me wonder how much better the fishing would be every year if we put them back. Proably like it was in the 50s and 60s. thanks.

Land tuna...Interesting idea!! keep em coming.

Skyrise...I agree 100%!!!! There should not be a sport catch and kill fishery on any stream for native Steelhead or Salmon. Need the help of the newly formed WSC to get the State to recognize that one.

Bill

My Guru of information has told me his sources (and he has them) have told him that the Hoh comercial fishery is about 250% of last years catch as of twoo weeks ago. The Quillayute was at 300% at the same time frame. Appears as though we may not catch up!I look for Gibbons to call for relaxed bag limits to facilitate our harvest share (JUS KIDDING sick humor).
Don't know what the harvest was on the Quinault but there appears to be a lack of fish off reservation on all the south coastal rivers.

Question who does the counting,are they reported to someone or are they visually counted,after seeing all the nates taken on the Chehalis this year then sold out of the back of their pickups are these fish reported ?????...Os

Osprey,

Not sure what Quinault Tribal policy is, but many of the treaty tribes allow their fishermen to sell "private, over the bank" fish sales to try and fetch a higher price than paid by commercial buyers. First, they are required to bring the catch by a tribal sampling station, or samplers go directly to fishing sites - the practice varies, so that the fish are counted and weighed and entered on the state/tribal commercial fish tickets. This gets the fish accounted and into the catch data system. Roughly the same process applies to non-treaty commercial fishermen who keep part of their catch, either for personal use or personal over the bank sales. This is not to say that no fisherman ever breaks the rules, but essentially the same law applies to treaty and non-treaty fishermen alike.

If you're wondering if there is an incentive to cheat, there is, but it's not the treaty/non-treaty allocation that you might be thinking. The state has a landing tax on non-treaty commercial catch, and many tribes have a landing tax on treaty commercial catch. The tax rates vary from 1 to 5%, usually, so it's not a huge incentive, but you know how people are about paying taxes, so if they think they can dodge it, they may try.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

It benefits Tribal fishermen to report all home use and subsistance fish. Part of pre-season predictions are the past 5 year run (catch plus escapemant) size. Larger runs size translates into more fishing time.

I too have a special place for the green sauks i,ve got your address maybe you,ll be hearing from me.Tuna we are allowed half the harvestble wild fish along with the hatchery fish just to make things clear.The cash sounds good&all but personally i don,t think i could do it,BUT YOU KNOW NEVER SAY NEVER.OS the muckleshoot tribe along with the state hand count,measure,sex,and scale sample every fish that comes to the dock.We get probably 95% of the catch if not more.Potters also right on his part.On the green the state uses the tribal catch from weeks 49,50,51,and 52 to update the runsize so the non-tribal also benefit when the runsize goes up.Suaks i dont have an address right now but i,ll work on that one I.E get my wife to do it.

Nativepride,
Thankyou for replying back to my post on fishtraps.
I can understand fully the right you have to keep your fair share of wild fish and utilize them as you wish. As a sportsman I have no right to ask you to stop harvesting wild steelhead when we are allowed to continue killing them. Even if new rules do go into effect that would prohibit sportfishing from killing wild fish I still believe in the reality that you are entittled to your share of wild fish.
What I care for is to see the wild steelhead comeback in strong numbers not so much so I can bonk them or C&R them but because they belong in our rivers as nature intended them to be. I realize there are many factors keeping the numbers of fish down and an entire release by all is not the total solution just a start for a healthy place for all of us to live and work.
By using modern fishtraps and giving you top price for hatchery fish it is my hope that you would more than make up dollar wise for releasing wild fish. I do not want to see you loose the right to harvest wild fish but hope that you can see that for now to kill them with so few of them left will not contribute to a healthy world.
I would like to see someday a world and our rivers included a place that we all worked hard to make a better place to work and play and that you would be able to harvest if so desired only wild fish because the rivers are healthy again and hatchery fish are a thing of the sad past.
Steve Wrye

Native Pride,

Thanks for your responses, they have been very informative. I don't fish the green much, but I am sure that everything is monitored like you say.

My experience is with some of the rivers I fish. THey are smaller rivers and I feel that the smaller rivers don't fall under the same regulated eye as do the larger rivers. Two of the some of the smaller rivers I fish are the Sekiu and the hoko. I have watched the constant(secretive) netting that occurs on these rivers. Take for example the numbers posted here. http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/fish/harvest/98-99/99shs-e.htm

According to these numbers the makahs only netted the hoko, in december. WHich is untrue, THey also netted parts of january, february and march. Also reported, was there was no harvest of steelhead in the sekiu. This is also untrue, because I saw the nets, and fish that were caught in them. The nets were placed out of sight up river a ways. I have this information recorded in my fishing logs for the season 98/99. Also, if you don't believe me take a drive to these rivers. Go up the sekiu a ways, or talk to the locals and they will point you in the direction of the nets. The sekiu river is really sufferring, from the netting.

It is these nettings that infuriate me. The smaller rivers are being hurt real bad, and can't take the netting pressure that is subjected upon them. Everyone just shrugs their shoulders when these smaller river don't make escapement. I feel native americans have a right to fish. But i don't think that all numbers are posted as accurately, as are on the green.




[This message has been edited by KORE (edited 02-13-2001).]

Nativepride-

My apologies for a fuzzy question. It was not meant as a slam on the Muckleshoots for using modern methods. What I am trying to find out is does it matters to you what methods and gear you use to catch your fish? Green sauks had the better question but I never saw a response - if it was a push dollar wise would you use traps and weirs over nets? Would it make any difference from a cultural standpoint? I'm trying to figure out what the tribal priorities are, money wise and culturally, so maybe some alternatives to netting could be worked out. Think about this: if the the Muckleshoots used traps they would have the opportunity to see every fish swimming up the Green. If that was the case very concious decisions could be made on what to keep and what to allow up river. Maybe pick the biggest fish for spawning and hatchery production. Thoughts?

Not to Slam you or what you do Native Pride but what does half mean?
Do you remember this summer when the WSDF&G and the tribal fisheries said how the Chinook run was going to be bigger then they expected in the elliot bay. After the Muckle shoot tribe did there test fisheries. So they went and opened up the bay for boats and to find out that they never got their escapement so they closed it down. The seattle times along with the WF&G had noted the tribes got 6,000+ and the sports men had close to a 1,000(986?) how do you get half out of this.
This year the Muckle shoot tribe was also involved in setting a maze of nets in Elliot bay from October to November along Pier 91 and the inlet trapping all the salmon from leaving with the dumping of 3 baby seals on shore. The muckle shoot tribe had a lot of problems with Foss too, when they deceided to tie up their nets so the tugs could not get out Some days there were more then 10 seperate nets strong along the Bay including along the shoreline and the piers. And all this for what to sell salmon at a price that is not even worth the price of Diesel.
The honest truth may never come out on what posses the Idiot (jeff Koneig) and others to think they can harvest like this for sports and commercial before they meet there escapements, I guess you need deep pockets to understand.
I really do not believe they understand what half is nor do they understand what the tribe had caused in the inlet.

Also I know that there is a talk about how we can maybe pay the Natives not to fish.
I beleive that this will not work till we can fully understand whats involved.
Here is an example, When some not all, commercial boats in Alaska had slow times(when they were not fishing for their target) they would start to fish for a species that they had license for but the fish brought no value to the company and in most cases they could not even break even and lot of them lost Money. The reason they would do this is so they would not lose their license to fish for a certain species, as long as you paid and used it it would not expire so to speak. So year after year they catch this fish just to keep the license so maybe in the future they can actually sell this fish and would have a license and there would be a good chance not too many other lic. would be avaliable. But in the mean time screw the worthless fish who cares we dont want to lose the lic.
As this was applied to Non native netting but I believe that their is some same factor behind the motives of the Natives to not sell the rights and yes some has to do with tradition but not all.
I wish I could come up with an idea that was going to help and I can't seem to figure out what it is. Communications help along with educating the masses but some things are hard to change.

Kore cant answer for the makahs buddy but it sounds like poaching to me.Try calling the local game warden or tribals i dont know.Aerofly the run was bigger than they expected and the hatchery and river did get their escapement.the 6000 to 1000 this is where it gets complicated add in the soos creek fishery and the blackmouth fishery out to the straits and the adult chinook fishery out in the straits it evens out.You would be very surprised at how much the green river chinook contributes to these fisheries.The nets in elliott bay were for coho.The tribe has coho net pens over there where we release about 600,000 fish all marked for everybody to catch.Very succesful as you probably know.I wish them guys would have brought them seals to the dock,my uncle makes damn good drums out of them,says they taste good too!NOT FOR ME.All of the net pen fish are mass marked so they are all harvestable.I dont think you can pay the muckleshoots enough not to fish.But like i said before never say never.Did you catch a lot of those coho over there i hope so.by the way escapement for green river coho was probably around 100,000 fish 43,000 hatchery the rest in river and tribs.

Nativepride,

There lies the problem. According to the Point-no-Point Treaty Council. http://www.pnptc.org/regs/salmon/F2000-065_STEELHD_Annual_2000.txt

The rivers that can be harvested are given a wide window of opportunity, there is no day allotment like that on the Hoh or other rivers. So someone isn't sure whether or not the tribe has the right to net the Hoko, or sekiu, and on what dates. Also the harvest numbers are posted after two years, by the WDFW, after the season, so checking accuracies is difficult.

And if illegal netting was happening, who would one call?
You can see why someone would start to get very frustrated.

These vague schedules are killing the smaller rivers.

[This message has been edited by KORE (edited 02-14-2001).]