It depends, if the guide is handing off a rod that will lead to an increase take and bonk of hatchery salmon or steelhead "who cares!". I would have issues though if handing off the rod would mean an increase on take and bonk of wild fish.

Bobber Down

"Keep your hooks sharp!"

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you Robert Allen3. If Joe Schmuck from Des Moines, Iowa comes to town and hires a guide with two of his buddies for the day he is not out there to learn how to catch salmon/steelhead/sturgeon/whatever. He is out there to CATCH FISH, and probably KEEP FISH. He cannot catch chinook, steelhead, or sturgeon where he's from so that's why he's fishing.

A guide SHOULD ask his party if they mind if he fishes with them to up the chances of catching fish, and respect his clients answer.

Handing off the rod, be it from a guide to a customer or a private party handing off to a private party, has a lot of potential grey area. One can say that it should be assumed that when a rod is handed off from party A to party B that party B's original rod is now under the control of party A.

The guide should be the last person in the boat fishing, as when the customer limits out then his line is out of the water.

*EDIT* Damnit, if they didn't interrupt me with work around here I wouldn't have been one-upped by Sauk.

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: fobbman ]

As far as guiding goes, I'm with the Kid on this one. Many people hire guides for many different reasons. Some are the couple from New York, in town primarily for another reason entirely. Some are like some of you, that simply hire the guide so that they can learn the holes and techniques of a new river. Some people NEED the guide to set the hook for them, to keep from crackering off every fish that hits the plugs. Others are accomplished fisherman with no need for this. I personally have no problem with a guide setting the hook on a strike, and handing the rod off. I believe it was stated fairly recently on one of the BB's that the state considers the person that lands the fish as the person that tags it. Nothing matters beyond that if that is the case.

As far as a guide having a rod in the water...who cares. The guide is licensed, they can fish. We all know that more rods in the water = more chances to hook up. I can't believe some of you guys are so anal about how many fish the guide boat is gonna catch. Have some confidence in your ability and put the time in on the water that they do and you will catch just as many, if not more, fish than they will, because you're not babysitting four rods for the Bundy family from Wisconsin like they are.

Immediate control-- This is a joke, right? Any rod that is in a rod holder is not in anyone's direct control. Do you really think that Joe Guide told you 'that rod over there is yours' makes that rod in your immediate control? Whatever.....

Cowlitzfisherman-- Your example at the beginning of this thread does not compute. A guide shoots your 6-point bull for you and tells you congratulations is the same as him hooking a fish and handing the rod to you? Naaahh...don't think so. The guide drops the bull, game over(except for the gutting and packing, which for 4 grand, he BETTER do). The guide hooks the fish, SO WHAT. The game has just begun. Anyone here ever lost a fish during the fight??? Again, let me say that if you choose to hook and fight the fish by yourself, go for it. But, that isn't everyone's gig, and I personally don't see the harm in it.

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: backlash2 ]

i think a guide not only has his reputation to look after but in some cases his future the fish being hatchery are there for the taking you paid for them i paid for them it shouldn't matter how a limit is taken (meaning guides rod what have you)as long as every one is happy with the out come

Hello,

I'm parker, and I'm a fish-oholic!

I'm right behind the Kid on this one. People pay a fee for a service, whether that service is instructing them on how/where/when to find fish, or simply getting them a fish to show their friends in NY City (get a rope! :D), that's really up to the client. Let them hash it out with the guide, rather than have the state dictate what the guides' can do. I'm for boat limits, too, rather than individual limits.

That being said, I don't think I'd take a rod handed to me by a guide. That's just not what I'm looking for in a guided trip. I would however like the chance to watch the guide fish, you can learn LOTS by keeping your eyes open and your mouth shut.

Blacklask 2

The point is; does anybody have the right to harvest or attempt to harvest fish or game for another person? If so, what game law allows it? All the laws that I read say NO!
The answers will benefit all of us down the road!


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I'll have to a agree with Kid on this one too. The purpose of the guide is to try and make the trip enjoyable for the client. Period. All else is just semantics. I know that when my fishin' pard and I pull plugs we just take turns, doesn't really matter whose rod its on. Works well for us.

I don't think the "hook & hand off" should be legal.

If I am an intermediate to advanced angler (and the bite is on) and I don't catch fish than the guide is not doing his job.

If the guide wants to fish for himself that is fine, but is he truly helping the client?

I am paying for a service, not for a free trip for the guide. If the guide puts me on fish, can navigate the river and fish (for himself) then all the better.

But if everyone is catching fish (my guide included) but me, then I want more "Personal Attention". Show me the Kwan!

I fish with guides on occasion. Usually this is with and for clients. The pluses are: I get to go fishing, I don't have to tow a boat, I don't have to clean up, and my company pays for the trip. These clients really want to catch a fish and the guides do a good job and if the guide hooks up, there is a client that is more than happy to take the rod. I believe they rarely remembers who actually had the hookup a few days later.
But what I keep thinkin' about is my father in his late '70's who comes into town and I need to get him a fish and I get a guide for a day. I seen them work for 9 hours straight to get him a fish and finally succeed on a 25 lb chinook.
When I call him to say hi he tells me he was just lookin' at the 8x10 on the wall dreaming about the fight. He probably doesn't even remember the guide passin' the rod.
It's worth it!

The Kenai River in Alaska does not allow the guide to fish and I think it's a good rule. I didn't get a king there and the experience didn't leave me longing to fish a guide rod too. I believe the rules should be more strict about guide fishing when protecting wild runs is important. Hatchery fish predominant....free for all.

So now we have open limits on all boats instead of having to put your rod down and waiting for your buddy's to catch fish now we fish on untill the boat is limited!!! so if I'm guiding and sharing the boat fish I love to share fish and I have guided it is all about the fun who cares the people that don't catch will someday and I hope they have the same additude!! PEACE.

Cowlitz. The game law states that you cannot harvest another persons daily limit for them. The key word hear would be harvest. I did not see this word defined in the game law but suspect you could get into some real hair splitting with this one. Personally I think that if the rod is handed off with in the same boat and that person then fights and lands the fish they harvest the fish not the person who handed off the rod. With the amount of guides that fish this way, it must be ok under the game laws or the warden would be one busy dude on the cowlitz.

I agree with the others about it being the clients choice as to whether or not they will take the handed off rod and personally don't see much difference between this and a client reeling in a fish that hit a plug pulled through a sweet slot by a guide while the client scarfs down pastries and sips on coffee.

peace out

This is a great thread.
Several important points are clear so far.
1.) We aren't real clear on how the law is meant to be applied.
2.) The majority of the opinions expressed are by those who welcome guides on the rivers, or are guides themselves.
3.) I have a lot of friends who guide, so I hope you will accept this opinion thoughtfully, as I wish to offend no one.
I personally believe that until a fish is caught, it belongs to the public equally. We paid for the hatchery fish with license fees and gear taxes, but they do not belong to us until we tag them. That means it belongs to the PETA pus-pockets and the client and the guide and everybody else, especially those who are not yet born, in equal measure. Because of this public ownership, any person who would profit from these fish(In this instance I mean guides of course), must do so with public permission in the manner the public is willing to allow.
Most guides are fine examples of how to behave, but many are not. If the purpose of the guide is percieved as simply to reduce public property to privately owned meat, by making a limited boat the main goal,and bending a few rules to accomplish this, the public will respond to this in ways none of us look forward to.

I take a lot of people fishing and I have reached the point that I would rather teach a person how to catch fish than catch one myself. I guess I am guiding for free, so the only difference between what I do and what the guides do involves the exchange of money. Guides work their **** off for what they earn, which ain't much, so I can't attack them at that angle. Even so, a valid argument could be made that boiled down, the guides are selling the publics' fish. I know the guides are selling the experience, and once again the guides are earning their money, but without the fish, there wouldn't be any clients, so a substantial portion of the client fee pays for the fish.I would probably be a guide myself if the necessary prices would not exclude the people I most would like teach to fish, or help catch a fish. By this I mean children, or that poor guy at work who can't afford a boat of his own, or the old pensioner down the street, who has never hooked a steelhead. I have confused myself again, so I better find a point and get to it.

When a guide jackrabbits me or corks me or impinges on my fishing, it will have an effect on how I vote. Or the letters to the ODFW I write, etc. I am still pro-guide because of the character of the great majority of the guides I know.

When I am trolling or guiding a bunch of kids, we take turns reeling in the fish, regardless of the pole. Just as we take turns with the net, or running the motor, or rowing the boats. So I have no moral high ground, although I usually avoid limits in a variety of ways, not the least of which is occasional ineptitude.

Hey Kid, I want to hire you as a guide. Tow that black Thor on down here and back it into my driveway. What does this client want? I want you to paint my house . (sorry, old joke) ...

I haven't read the exact Washington laws on this matter, but it has been an issue in recent years in Oregon. The ODFW decided to legally allow fishing guides to hand off a fish they hook to a client if it's done right away and the client proceeds to play the fish. Any person in the guide's boat that limits out his tag (usually 2 adult steelhead &/or salmon) then has to put their rod down and cannot continue to fish, or play another person's hooked fish. I have no problems with these newer rules, partly because Oregon native steelhead have to be properly released unharmed anyway - as do native salmon in areas where that's needed. I do have a problem with 5 rods continued to be fished when one or more of the 5 people (4 clients plus guide in a sled) has limited their tag. (2 clients plus a guide in driftboats).

RT

James and I personally had a experience with the game warden this season. For those who don't know the meathole on the lewis closed to boats May 1st-early june. During that time period we fished the meathole with bobber and eggs. There were several days we'd go up and there would be 10-15 plunkers in the bottom end not doing anything. So bobber fishing being such a success we started handing fish off on the shore. We were handing off 10-15 fish a day until MR WARDEN came along one day and watched. He gave us a warning stating that in the game laws you cannot hook and pass off fish to another to fill his limit. I got into the arguement with the officer about the guides and how they do it everyday, and he stated that was illegal also. So he warned us and moved on.. He did state that if you get a bite hand the rod off "before" setting the hook then you are ok. Pretty stupid if you ask me!
Keith

Cowlitzfisherman-- I was not trying to diss on you at all, I just see a flaw in your example. IMHO the example you gave is apples and oranges.

As far as handing rods off goes....I still don't understand the big deal. I personally don't care whether it is in a guide boat, on my boat, or standing along the bank somewhere. If I am hooking fish every 20 minutes, and some guy next to me hasn't touched a fish in 4 hours, why shouldn't I hand the rod off?? Most of you guys are saying that it shouldn't be about limiting everyone out, it's about the experience of being out there. Well, I've already hooked lots of fish, why not pass the rod to the guy next to me, and let him enjoy it. The guy obviously is dying to catch a fish, otherwise he wouldn't still be there flogging the water while other people around him have been catching fish. Hand him the rod, let him fight the fish. If he lands it, great. If it's hatchery, he bonks it. THAT IS WHAT HATCHERY FISH ARE FOR!! If it's wild, it goes back. Absolutely no difference between him landing it and me landing it.
And if a guide does the same thing, good. That is what he is there for, to provide the service of getting people into fighting fish.
And I do agree with RT here, when someone in the boat is tagged out, there rod goes in the tray. I don't understand the state's contradictory attitude between rivers and the ocean. When a tagged is filled, the rod should no longer fish, plain and simple.

Is it just an ego boost we are looking for here, fellas??? If a guy doesn't have catching fish down to the art that you do, he shouldn't be able to fight or land fish that he gets an assist on hooking? I guarantee I get pleasure out of helping someone else out, and I also guarantee they appreciate it. So, everybody has a good time. Isn't THAT what we are out there for??

So Kid when your guiding parker down the river does he let you hand the rod off to him???? :p

Tight liness

Kevin

SRBC

The kid took a handed off fish on an outing on the lewis on tuesday with me. haha
Keith

Don't even get me started Kevin. Although The Kid is a licensed guide, it will be a cold day in Hell when I actually pay him to go fishing! He should be paying me!

It's other way around. I'm handing the plug rod off to the Kid *all* the time. He uses those stupid right-hand retrieve reels - I refuse to fight a fish with them. Of course, he never let's me bring my own plug rod, so I can't use my own equipment. So, when a fish whaps my rod, I just set the hook, and hand the rod off behind me. More often then not, he just loses it quickly, so we're back on the water in short order!

PS. Don't let Justin sit in the front seat. He giggles like a kid in a candy store and has no frickin' clue what to do up there.

"Justin! Justin! Fish on! Fish on! Grab the rod! No, YOUR rod!"

Parker - Getting Better On The Sticks

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: parker ]

Really good opinions guys!

I was doing a little more research under the RCW's , trying to see if I could come up with any answers to some of the opinions that you guys have given concerning "fishing for someone else" or handing your rod off after hooking a fish. I did fine something that got my attention, and it probably relates to what Stlhdr1 had posted earlier. You can say what you want, but I think that this law speaks for itself!

RCW 77.15.380
Unlawful recreational fishing in the second degree -- Penalty.

(1) A person is guilty of unlawful recreational fishing in the second degree
if the person fishes for, takes, possesses, or harvests fish or shellfish
and:

The key words that I see is; "fishes for" ! What's your take on this law?


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????