So there have been some excellent discussions on the threads above and while actively participating in those discussions I kept asking myself the same recurring question:

Isn't what has happened to the upper Elwha exactly like the Doomsday scenario?? Even though I spoke out against cloning doesn't this seem like an intriguing solution to restoring the Native runs in this the former granddaddy of all NW salmon and steelhead rivers(arguable I know)?? Are the native runs realistically restorable with pure Elwha genetics?? Is native broodstock the answer, are there even enough returning natives in that system to begin a broodstocking program??

Anyone who has had the privilege of hiking the Elwha river valley knows the potential of that watershed to produce large numbers of fish. Is this rivers genetic identity lost forever?? As a child I remember my great grandfather fighting a 75lb chinook for several hours on the Elwha, would it be ethical to transplant the Kenai genes to the Elwha?

Is anyone familiar with the states plan for the Elwha after the dams come down??

Stlhdh2o -
While I'm not real familar with the Elwha the answer to your question depends on the species.

The resident rainbows and native char have the capabilities of resotre steelhead and anadromous char. Both groups of resident fish produce some smolts that would serve to re-establish those runs. The catch is will we let them.

There is hatchey on the lower Elwha that has at least chinook; maybe other species. Those fish would serve as brood source. The thing that made the Elwha chinook so large was the habitat that they used. Since once they get beyond the dam sites it still is intact selective pressure from the habitat should led to larger fish.

Tight lines
Smalma

I am not a fish bioligist or geneticist. While, yes there are Kokanee and resident land locked Chinook in lakes, if the lakes were all of the sudden connected to the ocean again, are you saying that these fish would still retain the urge to continue their anadromous lifecycle??

I certainly agree that the genes are probably there but how do you revitalize that population given 75 years plus of nature selecting for fish survival in landlocked environment?

A bit shocked that no one else shares my curiosity about how the Elwha system will be restored once the big damns are extracted, maybe I'll get a better response on the weekend.....

The Elwa is an awesome river w/the most fantastic habitat. If I wuz an eco-terrorist I'd take those damn dams out myself.
I personally don't believe they will be removed in my lifetime!
Don't recall exactly but I seem to remember that it would take like about 50-100 years for all the accumulated silt behind both of those damn dams to flush out and make the rivers suitable for anadromous fish. It is the most beautiful river, both scenery and habitat, that I've ever seen.

Last I heard a bill was passed in the congress to remove the damn dams but they have yet to authorize the funding for even the enviromental impact statement. Would appreciate any info on the progress (or more likely, lack of progress) on Elwa damn removal)

Also believe that the native fish runs, including the legendary monster chinook, are extinct.

Sincerely,
Roger

Actually the statement about the environmental impact statement not being written yet isn't true ... I have read it. Also the 50 to 100 years is off too ... in the impact statement, they estimated that healthy runs of fish could be in the river within 20-25 years of the removal of the dams. Although if you are talking about the huge Chinook (like 100 pounders) that used to return to the elwha, their genetics are most likely gone, but there have been some in the 50's spotted at the lower dam supposedly. The plan that I read involved restocking the elwah with native strains from other OP rivers. The frustrating part of the whole debate is that the funding actually has been granted to remove them by the federal government in 1992, but our buddy Slade Gorton refused it, because he thought that it would set a precident for removing dams for fish, and bring up debates about removing columbia dams ... which even if they got brought up, I think that it would be a tough argument to win at this point with the amount of electricity generated by those bad boys ... But the elwhas are an entirely different story ... they should come out ... soon!!! If you want to read about it here is a website

http://www.elwha.org/river.htm

later,
Matt

Thanx Matt!

SH20,

The Elwha EIS was completed and dam removal authorized in 1992 by Bush senior. The National Park Service now estimates that removal will begin in 2004 or 2005.

The sediment accumulation is a bogyman used by some of the dam removal opponents. Reasonable estimates are that over 80% of the unstable material will be washed out of the system within the first two "normal" water years, that is, not counting drought years.

The best brood stock sources for restoration are the fish that are there now. If some of those fish, like the chinook, no longer exist, then the nearest similar stock is most likely to be successful. Transplanting Kenai stock to Puget Sound was tried in the 1970s, and it didn't work. Although some people refuse to accept it, there really is something to this genetics and local adaptation stuff. Long distance transplants usually don't work, although there are always exceptions, like Pacific salmon and steelhead transplants to the Great Lakes and South America, etc.

The upshot is that restoration of the Elwha salmon and steelhead is likely, and once begun, will probably occur more rapidly than many have estimated. However, beginning is the tripstone. The wheels of government projects like this turn at the speed of a glacier. You and I may not fish for these restored fish populations, but our children will.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Smalma,

Did I correctly understand what you said; "The thing that made the Elwha chinook so large was the habitat that they used. Since once they get beyond the dam sites it still is intact selective pressure from the habitat should led to larger fish."?

You lost me on that one, or am I taking what you said out of text? Or are you talking about the "ocean" habitat? If not, can you explain to me how "rearing habitat" could make such a giant chinook, like those that used to be found in the Elwha? Fall Chinook typically leave their rearing habitat in the first year, don't they? Even if they left their rearing habitat in the second year, like Springer's do, how would that contribute to such a huge returning adult chinook?

I know that almost every year a few dead chinook in the 80-100lb class are usually found dead in the upper Columbia. So what would make those fish grow to such a size? I always thought that the final size of a returning adult salmon was basically accomplished by two factors; (1) It's Genetics and (2) available abundance of food in the ocean. Is their more?

The "habitat" one is a new one to me! If I did not take what you said out of text, can you tell us about it, and how it work?

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitzfisherman-
Yes that is what I said. Fish are very much a product of the environment they come from. Heavy flows, large gravel, etc all operate to select for large size in fish. If the Elwha habitat that selected for large fish in the past is still there no reason it would not do so again.

The only fly in the ointment would be the ocean fisheries. Clearly fish as large as the historic Elwha chinook were fairly old; say 5 to 8 years old. The fishing on their feeding grounds (sport and troll) would clearly select against the oldest fish. This is the major reason chinook are smaller today than in the past.

Tight lines
Smalma

Salmo

You said; "The sediment accumulation is a bogyman used by some of the dam removal opponents. Reasonable estimates are that over 80% of the unstable material will be washed out of the system within the first two "normal" water years, that is, not counting drought years."

I couldn't agree with you more! Look at what has happen on the Toutle River. It's that damn retention dam that has kept the Toutle from clearing up. If they didn't have that retention dam, all the sediments would have been flushed out years ago.

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

My home river, the Clackamas, Didn't have fish passage to the upper river for about 20 years in the mid 20th century. After fish ladders were put in at reliscencing, the wild steelhead were returning in the thousands within about 10 or 15 years (can't remember). Had the dams come out, it's reasonable to think the return would've been better since the ladders have been shown to dramaticly slow the adult fish down and kill smolts. I don't know how big the fish used to be, but the Clack does produce wild 20 pounders and I enjoyed a 17 pound wild fish there last year.