H20's recent threads got me to wondering? No flamage here H20 and others. Downstream migrant spawned out hatchery females....should they be bonked or released. Consider 1. they have already spawned; 2. if they return again then they have exhibited strengths characteristic of wild fish; 3. yes they may have some genetic differences from the wild fish but in any watershed there are always strays that show up from other watersheds to contribute there genes to the wild population. Typically the addition of some new genetic material to any population is found to be beneficial. I could probably come up with some more things to consider but this should be enough for now. So should we bonk them? Rather than just say "simply because" please give some reasoning beyond simple labels.

I say whack 'em. Nothing scientific (I think there is plenty of expertise in that area on this board, no reason for me to embarass myself), but I consider the native fish of any stream sort of sacred. I'm not a religious guy by any means, but I think they should remain as pure as possible.

I also like seeing an old growth tree alive once in a while, too. So sue me. :p

im with yah gooose...if the hatchery fish somehow spawned once....well good for it, but its a hatchery fish....we dont want those mixing with wild or native fish...bonk them whenever you get the chance

Seems to be alot of that sentiment Skywalker and Hedgie....no problems with your opinion
as its just as valid as anyone elses. Consider though that even before hatcheries there was straying between systems and addition of "foreign(?)" genetic material to native stocks. No judgements here...just some thoughts wanted. Thanks.

I don't know which way to go on this because you could question the ethics of either position. If someone could show me conclusive data that showed hatchery steelhead genes
do not comingle with native genes or that hatchery genes were actually beneficial I'd have no qualms whatsover about releasing them. I have been releasing them, with qualms, myself. Some of my fishing buddies release, some bonk....

Goose,

I'm not sure how to respond. I've released a lot of hatchery fish, mostly pre-spawners, over the years, mostly without knowing the downside. Even a couple this winter - shame on me?

The downside: a Chambers Creek winter run does not spawn very effectively (produce subsequent returning adults), and if it spawns with a native, it reduces the effectiveness of that spawner. As a kelt, most of the damage is done, as the return rate on hatchery kelts seems to be lower than with natives (is that a surprise?). And as fertilizer, it's probably just as good as a native fish.

The upside: if I release a bright hatchery rag today, maybe you'll catch it and bonk it tomorrow. Then we get twice the value from that one fish.

OK, maybe we should always bonk hatchery fish, no exceptions. But some days, that just isn't what I feel like doing. And with the regulation prohibiting waste, what would I do with a kelt? I'm picky about what fish I eat.

So even if bonking all hatchery fish is the proper ecological thing to do, I think a lot of 'em are gonna' get released, especially kelts.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Thanks for joining the discussion H20. Exactly the questions I'm asking. Looking for some science to be shed on the subject.

I figure that the hatchery fish are less likely to be genetically optimized for a natural spawning cycle, and if they should mix with a nate, they'll dilute the strain. Like I said, I figure. Data I DON'T have.

It's a good question, though. If a 12 lb. brat makes it through the gauntlet to spawn, the temptation might be to give it another shot. Especially if the other option is to eat it! :p

Hey Gooose!

May I suggest a session at the trestle hole on the Duck to discuss the Hardy Weinberg Theory of Genetic Equilibrium?

5000D

Hmmmmmm? 5000D don't know who you are as your profile speaks newbie....sounds like you know some of that river though...will consider it.
Thanks for the posts Salmo and Sky.

I say bonk em just cause they salmon are about to die anyway so get it over with. It would make a good pic if ist is a big one. I dont know just a thought

I say only klunk it if you plan to eat it. If you plan to eat it, then you have a stronger stomach than me. If its fate is to be chowed by a seal then so be it, maybe one less chromer in the seals diet.

And fishallday...kelts never make good pics.

fishallday steelhead can go back out to the salt and then come back to spawn again.

Tyler

No flaming please...not even mild flames...appreciate it?!
So far I haven't seen much discussion except from sky, h20 and salmo...just short statements of beliefs...all fine as they are valued opinions. What I am concerned about is that in the adoption of what I call religious orthodoxical beliefs we may be ignoring the value of discussion. I've seen this alot in various environmental subjects...the adoption of beliefs from basically what we are told with out actually personally fully exploring the issues. No problem with a persons chosen beliefs...they're as valid as anyone elses...I just want to delve deeper into the subject at hand. Again you want to flame please go somewhere else...please.

here is no need to bonk hatchery kelts. Also I am curios why people are so concerned with interbreeding let nature take care of it unfit fish will not be able to spawn. Also the genetic differences that are checked to determine different stocks does not code for anything it is simply extra. If I misunderstood my professors please correct me on that last statement. Also you need variations in genetics otherwise you will retard the stock and it will eventually die out look at Dalmatians also certain species of wolves are so inbred that they can no longer reproduce I am not sure how this would effect stocks of steelhead as compared to them as a whole but should be thought about. The straying of fish is natural besides an eight pound hatchery male is very rarely going to spawn with a larger female the larger natives will see to that. If you know for a fact that any of my statements are false please let me know so I can have the proper information.

Its pretty hard to have a discussion on a subject where the data available upon which to base an opinion is so hard to come by. Your left with a bunch of well intentioned people guessing at the right choice, mostly basing their decisions upon what is important to them. That's what I have done anyway...

I would let the fish go for several reasons:
1. Kelts usually are not that good to eat[ not to bad smoked?]
2. Already spawned [maybe not sucessfully] damage[if any] already done
3. I'm there to fish, not necessarily to catch and kill [that soul thing]
4. The mingling of genes is not inherently bad [the wandering theory]
5. If released, the kelt can[will] be caught again, they are hungry

Once again I am just pulling from emotion and speculation.I would have to take the size of the system into account.The Hoh river is a damn big system with alot of tributary spawning to boot so I would be less worried from hatchery intermingling.
5000D
Now if I caught one at the trestle hole I would not be surprised because it has been going on since they closed the hatchery program.

Gooose,
Was thinking of coming over your way and doing some hiking,looking for a red or two, ya gioing to be around?

Hi Cleo -

Knowing the Hoh as well as I do I strongly disagree with the statements 'there is alot of tributary spawning water' and 'the Hoh is a big system. Look on the map again and then compare its length vs, that of all Western Wa, rivers and you will find it to be small to average. I would describe the system overall as Healthy.

Comingling of hatchery genes with native genes, depending om which study you've read, has been portrayed as both nonexistent and highly damaging. This makes it difficult for someone who is looking for definitive information upon which to base a sound decision...

Gooose,
A buddy of mine runs the Tolt Creek hatchery, he seems to think that the hatchery fish spawn pretty good, its just the time of year they spawn. Lots of high water and flooding.

Fishhead5