Craven is great guy. He and FJ took me out for a drift on the Wynoochee in April without knowing who I was. Great guys, both of them. I got to return the favor by showing them the ropes out at Sekiu.

I hoped to give you a starting point. The area I told you to go is right in the middle, with LOTS of area to explore both up and downstream.

Folks have shared with me, I will also share. Gotta keep the Karma going.

Andy

The Gazatteer and the Steelhead book are on their way from Amazon! That Gazatteer looks great.

Here I set reading a posting from someone one a bulliten board and on the home page it reads.

Welcome to the Piscatorial Pursuits Website - the premier source of information for anglers seeking salmon, steelhead, and halibut fishing information in the Pacific Northwest.
Then I wonder if this is what the webmaster (Bob) had in mind when he created this site. "Can not tell you" "find it out on your on" You can find out all kinds of info and the web" Well here I am on the web looking at this heading on the homepage figuring I have found a place with some info and everyone is a zipper lip. Sure wish Bob could get his site back to the way he had origionally planed it to be. One of those sites on the web that people could find informitive information on fishing the NorthWest.

P>S> I know I will get the treatment on this one.

kingfisher -

Why don't you do this... ask Bob what river and location he was on yesterday when he hooked into those nice looking steelhead. See how much of that type of specific info he gives out.

I'm w/u Kingfisherman. This board had a slightly different...well.... ambience, for lack of a better word, than it had when I first discovered it. But, as in nature, everything evolves or (and?) it becomes extinct. It is kinda interestin to watch how the character of this bulletin board changes over time. In my limited experience things usually go 'full circle'(eventually). And, w/Bob as a moderator/czar I'm sure that this will continue to be one of, if not the best, BBs around. So there!

Sincerely,
Roger

Kingfisher-
It is in my opinion that the information given forth by not only my self but the other members and their replyys is much more valuable then telling the fellow exactly where to go!

What good will that do??....aside from him asking about more spots and spots and spots when the spots he tried prior did not produce.

By giving him a general direction and giving him the tools to learn he will be a much more effective fisherman, have a much better time and become 100% self-sufficent!!

Sparkey: Being one of the newbies that dont know where to go. I totaly agree with what you just posted. I'd rather know how to find the spots myself than have you tell me exactly where they are. I dont mind someone showing me where to fish, but knowing how to find them yourself is more important. enuff said.

No treatment KF Things certainly aren't what I thought they'd be when I first put up the initial half-dozen pages or so back in March of 1997.

I will say I'm happy with where it's at now. There is a load of information here, and in most cases, accurate and helpful, yet quite the "go stand on this rock" type of info. I too think that is one folks ought to work a little for.

Despite all the feelings of many anglers that think the site has given up all the secrets of salmon and steelhead fishing in the NW, and especially the OP ... I don't think so.

I like the idea of helping others, after all it's what I do for a living ... but you don't spoon-feed people either.

My basic reports I believe are helpful w/o disclosing so much information without having everyone on the river show up at one spot. That was never my intention and never will be.

Much of the information was available previously ... by every major river there is usually a tackle shop, and for many years before the web, there were telephones, you used the phone, called the shop to find out if the river was blown or not. Now, instead of making the call, you make a few mouseclicks ... really no different except the phone company doesn't get your dime. Maybe all the belly-aching people work for the phone company?

Sharing techniques, successes, failures, things you see on the water, issues regarding the fisheries, information such as tides or river heights ... this is what I envisioned and would like to continue to see.

There was a day I came to Forks and had no idea where to go and someone was kind enough to point me in the right direction. I'll be forever grateful for that and am happy to help when I can. I've steered a few folks I've met to places they might try here as well as in AK (there are some REALLY lost souls wondering rivers there) ... but I won't broadcast it in such a manner that says "Everyone fish on this rock".

I also remember the days I lived in Seattle while going to the UW and made calls out to Forks to see if things were fishable. That's all I wanted to know ... sure, it's fun to recount tales of long drives to places that ended up being blown out. But I also recall how nice it was to know sometimes that I'd be wasting my time to make that drive ... that's where my original intentions for reports came from, and that's why that's normally what comprises them.

You might notice that I've never included maps to holes or put-ins on the site, and never will. The only holes I ever make mention of period are the terminal hatchery areas on the big rivers. They've always been crowded, always will be and that's just part of NW fishing. If it's time to fish them, the local businesses will love to see you come ... there isn't much else to come to Forks for in the middle of the rainy season!

Much of the state of Washington has suffered pretty drastic declines in their fisheries over the last twenty years .... many fisheries have closed or are under severe restrictions ... yet the state's population has doubled and we wonder where the extra fishermen have come from, that applies to pretty much everywhere that still has decent fishing.

Thus RRR, I think you're seeing the shifts in attitude that you mention. Pople are worreid about traffic in their areas. And it's a realistic concern in some instances, but until Washington fisheries turn around ... it's going to continue. That's one hope that I have for this site ... that it will play some, however minor or major, role in the change of that current state of affairs of fisheries in this state.

Until then, remaining fisheries will continue to get busier, people will get more irritated, and will be less likely to help others, lest that angler might take your rock.

In some cases, the pressure has shifted to the Forks area: other coastal streams now have king closures (how many used to fish the Hump?), Puget Sound Streams have steelhead clsoures, Hood Canal has almost nothing but chum anymore.

But this fall, you got to see the opposite. The Forks streams were critically low which then saw the closures ... which saw a mass migration out of this area (including a few local guides who piss and moan about Puget Sound stream guides showing here in recent springs) to the Cow and the Skagit.

I wonder whose website in those areas caused that to happen??

Anyhow, I'm rambling now ... basically the way I look at it is: you share some things, some others you don't.

A PS just moments after I finished this: This just came through via email, this is what I envision:

Lest all the beginners get nervous about whether they will ever catch a fish, let me share with you a thought or two.

I've been down this road. I can remember being pissed off years ago when a guy answered, "In the mouth" when I asked him where he caught his steelhead.

I can remember some years when the fish did not come very often.

Then, after many hours on the river, they started to come.

After some more years, they started to come more often.

Now, they come pretty regularly. At least twice a year, most years.

I tried a lot of different things as I was trying to figure this fishing thing out. Let me tell you what doesn't work.

Knowing what hole on what river is hot. I have little fear of telling anyone where I fish. For the record, it's the Skykomish, the Chehalis, the Satsop, the Snoqualmie, the Cowlitz, and the Columbia. There is so much more important information than what river. I caught more steelhead than you want to know on these rivers in October. There were plenty of people there, but most of them weren't feeling the love. You've got to be on a river, and the river has to have fish. But far better to be on a river that you know well, that has a few fish, than on a river that you are clueless about, with lots of fish. You'll usually do better on your home river.

I don't care if you know when I fish. I'm going to the Skykomish tomorrow. See you there, Lewis Street ramp, 7:30. I'll be headed upriver, BTW.

Having the hot lure. I don't care if you know what lure I'm using. K15 kwikfish, silver and green, in case you're checking.

What I do care about mildly is if you are sitting on my rock in the river. So, please understand if I/we hold back that last bit of data, because which stump the fish is behind is something that I figured out or lucked into, and I kind of like that piece of info.

But that last piece is the piece that is easiest for you to figure out, and the most transitory of advantages. The fish is behind that rock for five minutes before it goes upriver. Then it may hang out behind your rock, then behind Mike's rock. Everyone anchored or standing in a hole is telling you exactly where they think the rock is. Make a note of it, and realize that a lot of the folks don't know. Pay attention to the folks with wet nets. And you know what, if you're in the spot I wanted, I'll go look for others, or I'll bat cleanup behind you with different gear. And I'll learn more about these fish we like to chase.

So the point is, get on a river, and start looking for _your_ rock. I spent years trying to buy a fish, by getting the right rod, lure, bait, egg cure, etc. Now I know that it's really about getting a reasonably good lure behind a reasonably good rock, at a reasonably good time, often enough for some luck to happen.

I'll say it again, if you want to know where to fish, go out driving on a saturday afternoon during the season, and the parked cars will show you where everyone else thinks the rock is. If that's too busy, then start looking at the map.

Good luck. Chummies tomorrow.

I will agree to a certain point.
I don't mind sharing info but like most I don't want to give them the exact rock or hole.

But here is something else to think about.

If a guy goes out and scouts out a river and talks to locals and spends time really learning the river but not fishing it. So one day he and his buddy goes to this river he has been scouting out and has good luck. While they are there they see only 2 other guys.

So now these two guys have found a hole in this river that is hardly fished(as far as they know) and continues to come here on a weekly basis.

One day they show up and see 4 or 5 guys fishing this hole. They are polite to them and just fish along side of them but not crowding them or interupting there fishing. As the 2 buddys fish one of them over hears the group of guys make a comment " I remember when this was a quiet place and it was just us who knew about this place. Another guy says to them it's the internet and all the stupid magazines out there giving away our secret hole, I wish they would learn to find there own river and stop mooching off others."

The 2 guys don't say a word and do there own thing. That night one of the guys logs on to his favorite web site and starts his reading.
A certain post catches his eyes so he clicks it on and reads it. It is about how they are sick and tired of people showing up at there secret hole and wish these people would stop crowding there once peaceful hole. he rants and raves about how these guys probly got the info fron the net or some magazine and there pissed.

The guy reading this post can't believe what he just read, no one told them about this hole he scouted out and was not givin a freebie. So he jumps down the guys throat and replys back saying all kinds of nasty things and how he found the hole and he did not get any info from any web site or magazine other then the WSF&G rules book. They continue to argue.
In the end they find out the guys post was about some other river and involving different people. The other guy says sorry and made a mistake.

So when you do all the work and put in hours of you own time to scout a rive rand suddenly you are getting chewed out by the old timers and hearing comments like this was a secret hole before you guys showed up, just remember they once had to find this hole and I am sure some one at one time complained about them.

So if a new guy shows up a a hole you thought was a secret how do you know if he got the info from the web or chat sites or he did his own hard work ? Especially if he does not say anything.

This is just a thought , or more of a ramble maybe not even really related to this topic.
But I think we all have been in a situation like this at some point in out fishing days, maybe.

There are no secret holes on the Nooch. On any given day in the winter you will find 30 or more boats floating the river and twice as many bankies. In the 1970's and 80's it was a different story, you could float the river during the week and not see another boat. Bottom line,that was then this is now. As a local, it is hard to deal with at times, especially when people leave their garbage on the river bank or park and walked across private property of those nice people that have lived up the the Nooch their entire lives. Thats my two cents!

Me Fish.. The nooch has limited access in the upper end for the simple fact thats its a long hard walk to most places..The lower stretchs are mostly private property with a few places to bank it...your best bet bankin it would be to walk in below black creek or fish just below black creek launch..just up about a mile is another bank spot but need water at 1200+ to have enough water...Gravel bar offers some bank acces as well and crossover and white bridge there are some bank spots too..There are a few other spots too but I will not be posting them here you just have to get out there and explore...warning though.Do Not trespass some people have a bad taste in there mouth of that and will call cops...If you can find someone with a DB that is willing to give you a ride your alot better off...I will be floating the nooch all winter feel free to email me and I'll float ya down... TM

I am glad that the internet was not part of my early learning curve!!Some of the best times of my life were the adventures,exploring the rivers.I have never listened to somebody telling me where all the fish are anyways.

NR,
You want a hand figuring out holding water and a little bit about how fishy's think I will gladly let you out fish me.I am headed out th e door nowShoot me an email,I love to meet ya.