Hard to believe, but I just got back from a drive through the Blue Creek parking lot this morning. I lost count at 125+ boat trailers/with rigs and gave up counting all the other "single rigs" (around 118) at the trail head and parking area in front of rearing ponds.

That's over 243 rigs on a Sunday!

I' Just can't wait to see what the Christmas through New Year week will look like!

Don't say I didn't forewarn the meek!! It will not be a "pretty picture" The best advise that I can give; make sure you are fully insured if you intend on taking your boat fishing on the Cowlitz that week…your going to need it!

Oh ya, don't forget your flack jackets either if you intend to bank it

3000 cfps That many boats,no thanks.

Should get out the digi cam and take some pix for us to see.

People are friggin nuts.

Id rather go out in my back yard all dressed up in my waders and what not and cast in a make believe river. It would be far less stressfull and a better experience overall.

Yeah they're nuts, but remember this (THANK GOD FOR THE MIGHTY COW PIE), because they would all be "somewhere else" without it.

Well said Rich!!

No. I don't believe it is worth it. I refere to my post...What is your motivation?

Why do you imagine all those boats and bankies are there?? Gee, could it have anything to do with the fact that the Cowlitz is the ONLY fishable water in the state right now? Every other river is blown out, with some nearing or just cresting flood stage. They're there because it's the only game in town, and even a bad day of fishing is better than sitting home doing honey-dos.

No brainer.

you called it minibear...i think thats why the cow is on my "favorite rivers list" and i have never fished there before.

Hey CF, if the Cow is so bad (returns this year according to you) and is so over crowded, why do you continue going there, you are really beginning to sound like a broken record, why not post something new for a change

I now fully understand you AkKings!

Normally I would not lower myself to your level, but sometimes we need to do it so that everyone else can understand simple little "nip" posts such as yours!

You may or may not know that I was also a guide not that many years ago on the Cowlitz. Since you have chosen not to reveal your true identity, like I have done, so be it!

Board members will draw their own conclusions.

I have chosen to let our readers know who I am, and what I have done besides just making money off them ( like some persons only care to do). Do you still believe that it is "ok" to tell lies about fishing , and how great it is to catch fish when they may not even be their on the Cowlitz, or do you even care?

What experience, besides you limited time of guiding, to you have to share with this board about the Cowlitz? Have you spent hundred of cold hours raising fish, so that all others can enjoy catching them here? Did you spend more then 5 minutes during the relicensing process (6years) to assure all your clients and the other fishermen that the "Cowlitz" will remain a viable fishery in the future…I think not…No, I know you have not!

So tell us AkKings, What have you done for the fishery on the Cowlitz other then just being a "taker"? Do you tell us when fishing is bad…I don't think so! All I hear from you is pure lip service and nothing else. If am I wrong, please tell me and this board what you have done to "improve" the sport fishery on the Cowlitz River, other then just taking from it.

Turkey day is gone, but some turkeys are still just goblin!

By the way, I live here (on the Cowlitz) and most likely will die here. I have spread both my father and mothers ashes back into the Cowlitz, and that should tell you something about my beliefs. This is a great river even those it does have its problems. I will continue to tell and inform this board of what I believe is the truth about the Cowlitz River, and its fishery, and how we can resolve those problems.

Theirs more to fishing then just making money off of it!

Cowlitzfisherman

Damn CF it sounds like your married to the COW PIE. Lighten up guys this is obviously a sensitive subject to CF. I think it's cool you care so much about her though, but always talking about how horrible the fishing is going to be this year and how this is the first year of the downward spiral for the cow pie ( I hope that don't offend you when I refer to her as that) isn't going to change anything. Here's an idea if the lack of funds are there to keep the hatchery producing the amount of fish as the good ol days how about a launch fee! to add some extra green backs to the Mighty Cow Pie. You and I both know NO money NO fishies. If you care so much why don't you look into something like a parking fee at blue creek. Sounds like today the owner of that parking and boat ramp could've made a fortune. What do you think?

BRAVO CF!!!

If it wern't for stewards of the resource like yourself there would be no resource left.
There has been far too much taking of the resource and not enough given back to it.

Minibear, your kind of right in a way!

I have made "a commitment" to the Cowlitz many years ago and I will not renege on it!

After all, it was for you and I and every other sport fishermen. You have asked me some good questions so I need to give you a few good answers. The married one has already been answered, so let's get on to #2; talking about "her good fishery", when was the last time that you can recall that the Cowlitz had a "good fishery" on the early winter run steelhead?

There are already plenty of fishermen out there that are already being pulled into the "hook" from the good old days, so why would anyone else want to put any more pressure on a river that is already undergoing a recovery (Settlement Agreement and words from Salmo G)?

No one can say that "they" would want to to be the "ones" who called in the "pack" if the Cowlitz was luckly enought to get a good run of fish (hell, Tacoma Power and the Seattle news papers, and Barrier Dam have already done that…right?) Has anyone else on this board ever called in the "pack" on their most favorite fishing spot…I don't think so! The "downward spiral is a "fact" that is part of the new 35 year Tacoma Power operating license on the Cowllitz. Plain and simple, early winter run steelhead WILL be (and is being) phased out! Salmo G has already told this board the same thing!

No, Minibear, you have not offended me with your questions. It's not about the "lack of funds" now, because Tacoma, WDFW and NMFS have already made a Final Settlement Agreement concerning that issue. Neither "Tacoma" nor the State can "charge" any new "fees" now for what is already agreed to in the 2000 Settlement Agreement.

Finally, you asked me; "If you care so much why don't you look into something like a parking fee at blue creek". Believe me Mininbear, I spent the last 6 years of my life looking into every possible thing that would be done to maintain our current fishery! If someone else thinks that I have not…let's hear from them now!

Again, thanks for asking me your questions in a civil way, it really makes a difference in how one replies.

Cowlitzfisherman

CFM,

Yikes! Careful what statements you attribute to me. I don't think WDFW is phasing OUT the early winter run. My understanding is that if hatchery production is to be reduced, WDFW has decided the main reduction will come from the early winter steelhead program. In the ESA section 10 permit NMFS wrote for the Cowlitz and other lower Columbia hatcheries, I think WDFW was advised to increase production of late winter runs for the steelhead recovery program. There is still a lot of opportunity for early winter steelhead hatchery production. The main limitation is that the early steelhead cannot be transported to the upper river basin for natural spawning because of stock genetic issues.

There are other changes WDFW could make that would continue a productive early steelhead fishery. Maintaining the hatchery coho program at 4.3 million smolts to prop up the lower Columbia River gillnet fishery should come to a halt. That fishery is about as relevant as a dinosaur, but change doesn't seem to come easy. That program could be cut back to just augment the ocean coho fishery, with the return going to the river recreational fishery and escapement. The gillnet fishery is obsolete. Mind you, I'm not against gillnet fishing when and where it makes sense. But the lower Columbia gillnet fishery helps prevent recovery of wild coho and other runs. That is why I think it should be cut back and the hatchery space it uses should be re-allocated to other production.

We'll get there, CFM, but you know all the good changes only come with a long fight.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

What good is a parking fee going to do if it just goes into the general fund.
I think that if all the money generated by sportsmen,from buying liscenses and what not,went to hunting and fishing related projects there would be more than enough money to take care of the fisheries related problems on the Cowlitz.
Oh ya,if you park at the mission launch.I-5,or Olequa,your already paying a parking fee.Which I understand is going to Quadruple next year.Lets see how much that helps.
I honestly dont know too much about this funding stuff.But if your looking for answers about them,talk to Cowlitzfisherman.If he doesnt have the answers I'd bet money he knows where to get them.
Bob,I hope you dont mind me referring to you about this.
I just know that your way more involved and informed on this stuff than any hundred other fisheman I know.

Is it worth it? I don't know. How was the fishing at BC on Sunday? If it was the bloodbath that I've seen in years past, then "Hell yes, it's worth it"

Salmo, let's not forget what the "Settlement Agreement" really says, and the power and weight that it WILL CARRY! You need to reread the fine print! Under part 6 of the Settlement; (Guidance for Future Interpretation and Decision-Making) this is stated:

6.1.4 "The emphasis of this Agreement is ecosystem integrity and the restoration and recovery of wild, indigenous salmonid runs, including ESA-listed and unlisted stocks, to harvestable levels." And 2; "ESA constraints will be a factor in determining the upper bound of production at the remodeled hatchery complex. Hatchery production numbers are expected to be adjusted downward as wild stocks recover."
6.1.5 "Fisheries management and hatchery production will be consistent with the overall goal of restoring and recovering wild stocks in the Cowlitz River basin".

And finally, the final [Bleeeeep!]-bit that fully supports what I have been trying to tell you guys has finally been verified by what the PCHB (Pollution Control Hearing Board) has just ruled on for Tacoma Cowlitz River 401 permit. It may be new to you because the 69 page PCHB ruling just came out late Friday. And I quote from page 41; "…The rational for the 1988 Agreement" (winter fishing flow agreement) "was to provide flows for the "early winter-run" steelhead, which return in the months of December to February. The hatchery produced early winter-run steelhead (a none-indigenous species) WILL BE PHASED OUT to promote the strengthening of the native late winter-run steelhead. The time frame for late returning winter -run steelhead is in March and May. A small amount may return earlier, but not in any numbers sufficient for sports fishing…"

Salmo, this was a judicial decision and ruling made by the PCHB that was formed from the sworn testimony and statements that were made during hearing by WDFW staff! It appears that it's "only you" that still believes that the early winter- run steelhead programming will be maintained.

I'll rest my case!!

Akking , thanks again for your private email explaining why you said what you did! So I will try to show this board WHY I wrote about the "traffic jam at Blue Creek". You asked me in your above post to post something new. You said; "you are really beginning to sound like a broken record, why not post something new for a change". Fair enough!

They say that pictures are worth a million words, so if these pics come out (taken at 9:30 Sunday), they will certainly tell the story. At the very lease, they will represent "something new for a change". Then maybe the poor uninformed fishermen who hasn't been there or has not yet been "harden" to this type of a "combat fishery", may get lucky and choose not to his take his family (or boat) into this type of jeopardy!

For years now, many of us have heard about the "Blue Creek combat zones", but have not really seen why it has been called so. Remember, the parking area is only about 8 acres, and appears to be jammed packed with about 243 rigs. It pretty safe to "assume" that each rig probably will represent at lease 2 persons per rig on the average. That would mean that you are now looking at over 486 fishermen attempting to catch…how many fish???

During the Christmas through New Years weekend, it is almost certain that there will be at lease another hundred or more rigs there each day. Like I said earlier, is it really worth it???

I am not at my best when it comes to posting pictures on the web, so I will make an attempt to show you just how crowded Blue Creek is. I hope it comes out (but don't count on it!)! Since I can't review the picture on my post, please be patience, us self taught guys take a little longer to learn this stuff!







Most of these pitures don't show or reveal that many of these cars and rigs are 3 cars deep!

So does anyone know if Blue Creek remains to be packed like this weekend on this fair weather Monday? Was anyone shot at ? Are lots of fish starting to be caught by the ones who venture into this zoo? I can hardly imagine what it will be like around christmas if there were already 250 vehicles up there on Saturday and Sunday.

You know Pautzke, you just reminded me of something I heard this weekend...

I happened to be out christmas/goodie shopping in the local sporting goods department and started to shoot the bull with another gentleman who happened to be there. He asked me if I had been to the Cow in the last couple of days beacuse apparently, he thought he had seen me down there. Anyway - he told me what I thought of as a story since I couldnt see it happening, of a time when he was there and had heard of or seen a GUN pulled on someone over a fishing spot!! Wouldn't you know it, 2 fellas next to us said they had also heard of fist-fights and stabbings as well.

I thought, that couldnt be true! Fishing is supposed to be relaxing - certainly not anything to get in an arguement about!

I'd like to find out if that was truth or fiction...but after reading this post I'm beginning to think I'm not so sure if I'm right after all. 486 people is a lot of nerves...

I was fishing from a driftboat at Blue Creek a few years back and there must have been fifty guys shoulder to shoulder and many more waiting for a spot. We watched in horror as a guy, who was wading, not wanting to loose his place, took two steps back, tucked his rod under his arm, dropped his waders and took a dump right there. He wiped with his free bare hand, splashed himself with some water and went right back to fishing. Sure glad I wasn't down stream of him. I'm not sure how I would have delt with that. About sums it up doesn't it?

Your pic are now working CF ... check the properties of the images to see the addresses that you have needed to enter

ive been to blue creek atleast 30 times over the summer and went for the first time this winter on sunday. People are always saying how bad blue creek is, but i have yet to see a fight or anything of that nature.. Can fish be caught at blue creek right now? Hell yeah.. did i hook into some fish in the 3 hours i fished hell yeah.. will people continue to go hell yeah.. .will i go again when all the other rivers are out of shape hell yeah.. and i am sure i'll see all many of the board memebers down at blue creek sooner or later.. It's not as bad as cowlitzfisher makes it out to be, sure theres a lot of people and sure fishing is tight.. but that doesnt mean people are not somewhat nice. I still had fun regardless of all the people that showed up. If you want to wet a line and maybe catch a fish i say go to blue creek.

Its not like you have to FISH right next to all the other people at the point, you could go down river more, or even fish up river... Heck you could even pimp a ride over to anderson bar or whatever i mean, theres options if you want to get away from the people and just have a good time.

Casey

No.

h2o, you took the words right outta' my keyboard!

Working hard towards brevity.

How am I doing?

I made the mistake of taking my driftboat down there last year between Christmas and New Years........never again. It is simply no fun with that many people around!

FishinSinsation

Hell yeah! Hell yeah! Hell yeah!

That almost sounds like a religion! Most people who love to fish, love the outdoors, and love the fellowship of fishing and are probably saying Hell no, Hell no, and Hell no, and probably saying a few more "Hell Mary's" also!

After reading your profile and your "birth date" (01-19-1982), its sounds like you're a pretty young and new puppy (you lucky dog!). Some us "older dogs" have already been there, and have already done that way of fishing that you may like). But many people, as hard as it is to believe, may have not yet been there and done that.

Maybe some of those people will enjoy that type of a fishery, especially when the Cowlitz is experiencing its "lowest" flows on record. But sane fishermen, (especially old guide dogs like me) have to wonder why? Its kind of like going to a "fight" and being "caught up" in the "crowd" isn't it? Or maybe it's like staying up for new-years when you don't even drink or party…right? Why do you feel the need to do it?

I got to ask you, is it being able to be "one" that comes into the boat ramp at the end of the day or trip with "a fish or two" when no one else has any, or what the heck is it that makes you think that it is so great? It's probably true, if you truly enjoy shoulder to shoulder boat or bank fishing, that Blue Creek is the "place to be". But as I have forewarned so many of you, it is quickly becoming a place of the past.

That place will be coming to an end sooner then many of you think.

Even if one (like me) likes to "keep" what they have caught (I eat fish!), there is still a hell of a lot more to "fishing" than the "experience" that you WIL BE AWAKEN TO when you fish at Blue Creek this time of the year.

OK, I have said my piece, and I will let those that choose to hammer me for what I, and many others already know!

Cowlitzfisherman

Well.

3 words:

BLUE CREEK SUCKS!

TTT

cowlitz i am just saying it sounds to me that your blowing this whole thing out of prospective, i mean granted i wouldnt want to fish blue creek everytime i go fishing, but when i am in need of a good steelie fight when i am down on my luck other places, or thats my last option i head to blue creek and HAVE FUN, not saying that its this way for everyone, heck blue creek isnt for everyone but i do enjoy going and catching fish and spending time out and way from my house when there is nothing better to do or better to fish. so yes i do think blue creek can be fun, and is fun to me

Casey

Casey

Maybe you're right; I guess it all boils down to what someone may think or consider "fun" really is!

Cowlitzfisherman

i guess what i am saying cowlitz is that all those people are there for a reason, the people who you are "trying to scare off" would be the ones to show up, and then just drive RIGHT back home.. guess you're doing them a favor but i mean, do you think much will change?

Casey

Can't keep my mouth shut. Casey I think you are right on. Iv'e been fishin for quite a while, and I've moved to other spots cause there are(too many people) where I wanted to fish. I,ve gotten upset cause everybody didn't do it the way I wanted. I've even left the river to (show em)!
What I have learned if I've learned antthing is that if I want to have a good time I have to have a good time.
Hell' things change CWF. It's not gonna be like it was. ever again. but like Casey says, its still good fishin if you can give a little and take a little. We paid our nickle too. We get to fish in your river, your welcome to fish in mine.

Is it really worth it?

I think so. Hell Yeah!

Herm

Casey
No one is trying to "scare off" anyone!!

Just trying to let the other members see for themselves what the truth is about Blue Creek…plain and simple! An owner of a store or someone else that depends on your money sure in the hell isn't going to tell you not to come if they depend on your money...right?

It's just something that isn't going to happen…it's called telling the truth! The pictures alone speak for themselves. Every fisherman must make up their own mind about this issue. If they like it, they will be there! But for the fishermen that have not been there, now they may have a choice!

What's wrong with that?

They say that knowledge is a dangerous thing…and they may be right!

Cowlitzfisherman

Herm

What the heck are smoking?

You just said; "We get to fish in your river, your welcome to fish in mine. Do you really believe you or I really "own" our own rivers?

That must be one of the main reasons why I have stuck my neck out locally and fought against the big property owners along the Cowlitz for Public access".

The fight for "Public Access" on the Cowlitz was for guys like you, not me! Hell most of the big land owners hate my guts for pushing that issue. No one owns our rivers; they belong to all of us. Some people just fight a hell of a lot harder then other to keep it that way!

I guess I could just jump into any of my boats and fish anywhere that I wanted to on the Cowlitz if I choose to do so. So what big gain was there in it for me to fight for public access for people who can't do that?

Cowlitzfisherman

Cowlitzfisherman

yeah... thats true cowlitz.. i think this subject is about done, what do you think?